I can not share your worship, but I can share your grief

[DancingBear]

I was raised Catholic, many years ago, but I've turned away - far away. The lessons , at least in my life, rang hollow, as the actions of those who I worshiped with never meshed with the words I heard from the pulpit. I put religion on the back burner, and to this day there it stays.

Today, however, I read of the Pope - articles, recollections, and history. I believe, with all that I can, that he matters very much. Not to be, to be sure, but to millions of others, who are sincere in both their religious convictions and their Democratic ideals.

So today, an atheist wishes all of you who grieve so deeply the time to heal, the memories to cherish, and the will to fight along all of us here to bring back what you believe he stood for.

When the time is right, I look forward once again to holding hands with you and uniting against the evil that faces us. Until then, I wish you comfort and strength, and may these times of heartache turn to times of triumph. For us all.

[pnutchuck]

1. Very well said

I nominated your letter for the best threads page.

[Toots]

2. Nice post

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skinner]

6. diamond14

Please check your inbox. Thank you.

[diamond14]

7. checked and responded to....please read your inbox message from me.

thanks for reading, and I look forward to your response....

[H2O Man]

8. Beautiful.

An essential part of civilization is being able to feel compassion for those who are different than one's self. Though I am not a Catholic, I find your message to be one of compassion that we should all take to heart.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. Yes, the late pope was a great man....

....if you believe that his policies toward HIV/AIDS, gays, and birth control were the correct courses of action.

He "matters" to the captive US mainstream media because his beliefs on the issues noted above dovetail neatly with the beliefs of our rightwing fascist rulers.

Do you think for one minute that the late pope would be receiving all of this media attention had he believed differently about those issues?

[DancingBear]

10. This is not what I said

I believe his courses of action on the aforementioned subjects were/are grossly misguided, and terribly wrong. Had he instead reached out to the G/L community for example, and portrayed them not as sinners but as equal partners in his teachings, he could and would have done wonders in healing the rift that Bush has *purposely" created. By doing what he did, he allowed the "hate the sin, love the sinner" crap that Falwell et al spew out daily to attain some degree of legitimacy, when of course it is nothing more than bigotry wrapped in swaddling clothes.

I said that I do not understand religious faith (and I do not), but I do understand that some people believe. To crush these beliefs at this time, I feel, is counterproductive. If, over time, people of faith who also believe in true Democratic ideals find their chosen religious leaders to be not acting in their best interests, perhaps they will make their opinions known.

Until then, however, I stand by my post. We're in a battle against fascism - ALL of us - we can't forget that.

[LittleClarkie]

23. You don't have to believe the pope was a great man

But at this particular moment, millions are mourning him, and some are trying to be sensitive to that.

Some of the talk on the board reminds me of going to a funeral, standing over the grave, and talking about how much the deceaced sucked.

It just seems wrong at this particular moment. Maybe after the funeral it will feel more right to debate the man's place in history. Just not right now.

My comments aren't meant to say that people shouldn't talk about that if they so choose right now. But I'll probably put those threads on ignore until after the dude has been laid to rest. Personal choice.

[Deja Q]

11. I grieve for those who have been hurt BY Catholicism.

I've many friends and acquaintances who struggle every day because of that religion. And most of them are not gay, or even molested, but they sure as hell seem hurting.

Never mind those who are not Catholic who have been scapegoated by that Religion for no rational reason at all.

Sorry. When it comes between the death of one or the misery of many; the many will generally get my attention. Especially when the One is part of the cause FOR the misery.

[jonnyblitz]

13. good post. I am with you. nt

[DancingBear]

17. I am struggling with this issue as well

I wrote in another post from some time ago that the amount of sheer bigotry that I encountered while part of an organized religion was astounding, and it continues to this day. It is one of the reasons why I view organized religion (and Catholicism in particular) in such a negative light. The hypocrisy that I saw that existed between do as I say and do as I do was astounding.

Try as I might, however, I couldn't paint everyone involved with the same brush. I knew, and still know, true and committed progressives, who believe in everything I do, who have faith. I honestly feel they are hurting today, and I feel that I should give them at least comfort, for I am in no position to give them anything else. As I said, I can not (and quite honestly do not wish to) understand faith, as defined by religion.

[merh]

12. Thank you for your understanding and compassion.

:hug:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DancingBear]

15. I am sorry

but I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DancingBear]

18. And??

Yes, I do reject it - and when one is upfront with something it is best to state same up front, which is what I did.

That said, I can still feel compassion for those who disagree with me during what must be a very hard time for them. There is no mutual exclusion here.

At some point, if you'd like to argue or discuss my reasons, I'd be happy to oblige.

Just not today.

[LittleClarkie]

22. You're a good person, DancingBear, with a good heart

who can transcend your differences to recognize we are all human beings.

I was the same when Reagan died and they couldn't get Nancy off the casket for a minute there so the kids had to go and embrace her. I'd just lost my dad not to long before, so I sorta lost it right in the middle of the pub where we were playing trivia.

A conservative friend who knows my leanings looked over and said, "What are you crying about, you're not a Republican." Yeah, fella, but I'm a person. And at that moment I shared in Nancy's grief, even though I will never be a supporter of her husband's.

I have another conservative friend who understood, and hope he'd be the same for his liberal friends if someone like, say, Bill Clinton ever died.

[GoldenOldie]

19. Very well stated, DancingBear

You express in your post the feelings of many who are unable to put them into words.

The "I am sorry," posters are unable or unwilling to read and understand the meaning of your post but make sorry attempts to use it to proselytize their own ideology.

[barb162]

20. you echo sentiments somewhat similar to mine. I think the Pope

was a really good man, that he meant well to everyone, was mystical in his faith and love of Jesus. I was raised Catholic also but just didn't agree with everything about the Church. Yours is a very lovely post.

[LittleClarkie]

21. As a Lutheran who is watching this from the "outside" sorta

I also share in their grief.

This man has been the pope since I was in high school, and I'm 41 years old. He had an impact. He brought the papalcy into the modern era in media if not in message.

I feel for my Catholic brothers and sisters this day.

[Ellen Forradalom]

24. John Paul II

was by all accounts a perfectly decent human being, and while he might not always have been the most helpful of characters (particularly to us of the female persuasion) he didn't screw up either, like the Pope who looked the other way while the Nazis carted off Jews. He seems to have done his best at a tough job.

To this sometimes Anglican, the bishop of Rome was A-OK. It was nice knowing him, and I hope he rests in peace.

[coeur_de_lion]

25. I think people forget the old days

when John Paul first became Pope, how he fought to make the Poles free of Russian domination, taking a stand against communism. They might forget how priests were tortured and murdered in Poland, and the Pope helped put a stop to all that. He gave the Poles the courage to start the Solidarity movement, and publicly supported Lech Walesa. Even Gorbachev said that the fall of communism in Eastern Europe would not have been possible without the Pope.

People might also forget how he took a stand against the invasion of Iraq. He urged U.N. reform and said that the international community had to heal the underlying social injustices that can fuel terrorism.

For those who wish he had been more progressive, I guess I wish that too -- but I never expected it to happen. I don't think the Catholic Church will change much. It's been the same for centuries, and whoever takes over as Pope will not likely change the basic position of the Church on G/L issues, or abortion, or on women becoming priests. I wish they would but I don't see it happening, sadly.

I'm Catholic obviously, but I don't suffer from Catholicism as many do. I take the good things about the Church to heart. The bad things -- I pray for them to change, all the while knowing they probably won't in my lifetime.

The Pope's biggest error in judgment was that the molestation of kids happened on his watch and he didn't do nearly enough to punish the priests responsible for the abuse. An inexcusable error. Hopefully the next Pope will change all that.

Whatever his faults, he suffered horribly in the last few years of his life. It doesn't excuse his faults, but maybe we should pray that he rests in peace. He did a lot of good, he ignored a lot of bad, and after all he was just a man.