"Hate The Sin But Love The Sinner" Is Bigoted And Dishonest

[ruggerson]

and I can't believe how much I'm seeing it here.

I understand that people wish to rise in defense of the Pope or Catholicism, especially during this time.

But it's not right nor moral to subject your fellow gay DU'ers to the hate language that is spewed on a daily basis by the religious right.

"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is religious rightwing hate speech. And it in no way excuses people who have been engaging in the physical, emotional and spiritual decimation of gays and lesbians for the last two thousand years plus.

[Name removed]

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[mmonk]

41. evil is a bit strong

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

58. Just as in the rest of America, the Xtian Right with their calls of

religious bigotry, have cow towed the masses into allowing their statements to go unfettered by discourse due to the fact so many have been trained that it's untoward to criticize another's religion.

IMHO, the current superfluous flooding of bandwidth with religious dogma and opinion into political forums is a harbinger of things to come.

I'm frightened for what's left of my country.

[jdj]

2. look this is how I feel about it:

:puke:

there really aren't any words.

plus, with regards to fundies,what if I want to hate both them and their sins?

[RevolutionaryActs]

3. :-)

:applause:

[tedzbear]

5. It's code for: "Hate the sin and beat up the faggot!"

eom

[EFerrari]

79. I was thinking it's code, too.

"We're not moving on this one, and want your donations anyway."

[hiley]

86. damn right

that is exactly what it means !

[Eloriel]

104. Trust me, it's not code at all

It's the sick and twisted thinking -- denial! -- that lets them PRETEND to be all Christian on the subject while indulging their bigotry and hatred anyway. It's a mere intellectual or mental contortion. It MEANS nothing because it's a lie they tell themselves.

[BuyingThyme]

6. But the zombies eat this nonsense for breakfast.

No thinking required. (And none permitted.)

[fujiyama]

7. Well said

You summed up my other thread very succinctly. I have a tendancy to ramble on.

I have no problem in people wishing to dicuss the good things the Pope did, but he was a human and some of his policies were simply not right.

I was watching a documentary earlier in which this Pope issued a decree (or whatever formal statement) that anti semitism was a sin. The documentary discussed how certain preists recieved people confessing this sin after the Pope issued it. The Pope also declared that to be anti semitic, meant one could not be Christian. It was a profound statement.

And it would be great if the next Pope could do the same about homophobia. Few are asking that the church perform gay marriage ceremonies, but simply for a clear, unambiguous condemnation of homphobia from the church.
And regardless, if we buy the "hate the sin, not the sinner" argument, we too are buying into the notion that homosexuality is a sin.

[Swamp Rat]

9. Right on! n/t

[gaia_gardener]

15. Yep

the main reason I hate that phrase is that it means I've decided what is and isn't a sin, and that is so not my place.

[Fenris]

8. Love the sinner, hate their clothes.

[jonnyblitz]

10. LOL

:)

[stopbush]

11. You're right. We're hearing about how popular this Pope was,

but you didn't see him putting that popularity to work to better the lives of gays and women. The man was absolutely medieval in his approach to gays and women.

I don't care if his adherence to such out-dated and outrageous dogma was "just following Catholic tenets"...because THAT'S the problem!

No one who is against gays and women can be considered to be *for* "human rights." Last I looked, gays and women were human as well.

Sorry, Pope apologists, but that's my belief.

[CoffeeCat]

12. I agree with you...

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner"--is demeaning.

You cannot have love without acceptance.

To offer someone love without acceptance--is twisted.

Offering love without acceptance is a cheap shot at making yourself feel better--about your own hatred.

[mmonk]

13. I disagree about the teaching about homosexuality

in the church, however, your self righteousness doesn't strike me as noble. Hate is hate. Not everyone falls within your brush strokes.

[ultraist]

20. Being opposed to violence against Gays and women is hate?

Why should we tolerate bigotry and hatred towards women and Gays?

Should we also tolerate bigotry and hatred towards people of color?

How UN-Democratic!

[mmonk]

27. I think I was called a homophobe

by the post indirectly. Though I disgree with Church teaching concerning gays, I believe there is a certain lumping together appearance to the post (since I'm Catholic).

[ruggerson]

30. Not all Catholics

believe church dogma about "hate the sin, love the sinner." Not all Catholics believe that being gay is a sin. Not all Catholics believe that being gay is "disordered" (whatever that means).

The post was about how Church dogma, while pretending to be loving and caring on this issue, is actually viciously harmful and evil.

[ultraist]

35. No, I did not call you anything

I was incinuating that the Catholic church spreads homophobia. "Gays are sinners." Hellooo?

[mmonk]

39. Ok then

You can leave off the Helloo though.

[BigBearJohn]

31. Do I understand you right? Are you saying that the pope

favors violence against gays and women?

[ruggerson]

33. Employing language

like "hate the sin, love the sinner" or saying that being gay or gay marriage is part of the "culture of evil" leads to violence against gay people, yes.

Hopefully the new Pope will begin to understand this.

[ultraist]

37. Sociology 101

Homophobic and misogynist beliefs leads to oppression and violence against Gays and women.

Refusal to accept this reality is denial.

[JerseygirlCT]

99. With all respect,

I think one could fairly argue that being relegated to a second place position -- or no position at all -- is tantamount to emotional violence. The psychic damage done to women and gays and lesbians over the years by institutions insisting they either stay in the closet or in their place is hard to really quantify, but my guess is it's not insignificant.

That doesn't cause me to hate the pope or the people running the Catholic church. It causes me to pray for them to see the grave error of their ways. Like the rest of us, they're human and quite fallible. And I do believe the day will come when forgiveness will be asked for the sins committed against these aggrieved groups. I just rather doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, unfortunately.

[forgethell]

65. You're either

tolerant, or you're not. There is no in-between.

[ruggerson]

81. Yep

and, frankly, "tolerance" doesn't even cut it for me anymore. It has a very paternalistic, condescending meaning. We need to accept and respect people, nothing less.

[forgethell]

101. I don't know.

There are a lot of things I can't accept or respect, and, if you're honest with yourself, you probably can't,either. I don't care to tolerate most of them, either, but some you can, and sometimes you have no choice.

To me 'tolerance' means, "you go your way, and I'll go mine. Leave me alone; don't expect me to validate you. Why the hell do you care what I think, anyway".

I ask no more than to be 'tolerated' on those terms. I see nothing paternalistic nor condescending about them, either.

[LoZoccolo]

14. I guess I don't see it.

There is a Muslim guy that sits in the cube accross from mine at work. We're real friendly to each other, and even wave hi like every time we see each other. I think he likes that I didn't change the way I acted around him after 9/11 or something. Anyways, his religion dictates that I've going to a certain level of hell for not subscribing to it, and that it's filthy that I eat pork. And yet, I would never accuse him of hating me because he objects to things I feel it's natural for me to do. I just wouldn't feel justified in laying that on him.

[ruggerson]

16. Does he have an organized, systemic

avenue to force his belief system on you? Does he pass constitutional amendments forbidding you from eating pork?
Does he exclude you from protection under the law in the country
in which you live? Does he stand at your family's funeral services
with signs saying: "God Hates Disgusting Pork Eaters"?
Does he control the President of the US and use him to make
bigoted remarks about you and who you are?

Just wondering.

[LoZoccolo]

18. In some ways, yes.

Osama bin Laden had terrorists slam planes into the World Trade Center, and Muslim terrorists are setting off car bombs in Iraq.

Now that argument makes as much sense as comparing some DUers tolerance of someone's religious restrictions to the actions of the religious right.

[ruggerson]

19. So are you comparing

Muslim terrorist fanaticism with mainstream Catholic dogma?

Because that's what you just did. If your analogy is apt.

Which it isn't.

[LoZoccolo]

21. No.

No, I'm not.

[tedzbear]

26. Try this test:

See what happens if you stick the rainbow flag or pink triangle on your cubicle. Will he treat you as kindly as you do him?

[Jamastiene]

32. This test also can teach a person what homophobia feels like too.

Simply say you are gay. Wait at least one week if you can stand it before you let everyone know you were just testing their reactions. I mean you gotta say it like you mean it. Don't act any different, just say it and watch the snide little comments fly toward you with flecks of spittle in them that might as well be flecks of shit. It'll fucking AMAZE you how QUICKLY people start acting different toward you and how MUCH different they act.

[fujiyama]

43. It is stunning

I remember right after the election, I was speaking to a friend of mine who dislikes Bush and was very disappointed about the results, but we were then talking about the gay marriage amendment in this state, and his expression was disturbing in the way he was like, "Hell yeah I voted for it. Fuck those f%ggots".

I wasn't too stunned though because this sort of homophobia is all too common, even among those who traditionally vote Democratic. It's unfortunate.

[Jamastiene]

51. You speak the truth.

Even some of the ones who act like they are so enlightened sometimes say things and agree with things that don't make sense.

[LoZoccolo]

44. I'm not sure about him, but...

...I know of another Muslim at work who was on very friendly terms with a gay employee.

I simply don't think I have the authority to crawl into someone's head and go around telling people how I think they think about something that might be more complex than the treatment I would give it. I think that would be disrespectful of me. I don't like conservatives telling me I'm anti-American because they can't or won't understand the subtleties of my opposition to the Iraq war; why should I give someone else's deeply-held beliefs the same roughshod treatment?

[fujiyama]

38. So basically

your equating dietary habbits with sexual orientation?

Few people are being harassed, killed, or discriminated by whether they eat or don't eat pork.

Being gay isn't a choice like whether or not you eat a certain type of animal fat. I find the whole analogy pretty absurd.

[LoZoccolo]

48. That's because you're extending it too far.

All I'm saying is that someone can disagree with me, and yet have it make no difference in how they treat me. Like I said in another post, I simply don't have the right to go around telling people what I think they really think of me.

[Colorado Blue]

73. Hello? Last I checked, bigotry against Muslims and Jews,

neither of whom traditionally eat pork, is hardly a thing of the past. In fact I think it's on the increase and it doesn't help that Muslims and Jews are frequently mad at each other and that various sects of various religions are murderously at each other's throats.

Having said that, I think this intolerance against gays is sickening.

And the Pope's attitudes toward women was reactionary.

I figure, that adds up to discrimination against something like 60% of the human population. At least.

Nevertheless, I hope we can move to an era of tolerance for faith. We need each too much - people of all faiths, aetheists - everybody - to continue on the path of divisiveness!

The misuse of faith to attain and maintain temporal power, however, is threatening to our democracy. It is threatening to peace EVERYWHERE.

And exploiting people's hatred - of gays, women, Jews, blacks, Muslims - whoever - to get power - is just WRONG. It's scary!

Hopefully, our country is too strong to succumb to this. Overall, looking back at the '60's for example, I think America has come a LONG way in recognizing civil rights. Let's hope that the current reactionary rhetoric is a speed bump and not an indicator of a trend, a return to the bad old days of repression and fear.

[ultraist]

17. Misogyny and homophobia leads to VIOLENCE against women and gays

Why do some fail to recognize this?

How can they justify their claim that those who are the victims of oppression and violence have now become the perpetrators against the majority oppressors? WTF?

[beam me up scottie]

22. HOW DARE YOU

bash hypocrites?

[RevolutionaryActs]

23. That made me LOL

:hi:

[ultraist]

24. Me too! LOL!

[beam me up scottie]

34. Well I am damn sick and tired of

all this hypocrite bashing and since nobody else is willing to stick up for the poor hyppos, I'll just have to do it.
You think it's EASY to be a hypocrite? They don't CHOOSE to be that way, you know, they were born like that.
How would you like it if your son or daughter came home and said
"Daddy and Mommy, I think I'm a hypocrite"
How would you feel then? What if they decided to marry a hypocrite?
Would your church be willing to accept a mixed marriage?
How do you think it feels to have to be a closet hypocrite? Always afraid someone will recognize you hypocricizing at a highway rest stop, looking over your shoulder before you enter a sleazy bar, trying to appear "normal" when around non-hyppos.

Just put yourself in their place, people, please, that's all I'm asking.


umm, I just want everyone to know that I personally am NOT a hypocrite, not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Jamastiene]

50. LOL

Good one scottie. :rofl:

Let's start a movement here tonight. Anybody notice I'm always calling for a movement. You'd think I was constipated or something.

[beam me up scottie]

53. Well, there does seem to be

an awful lot of constipated people around here lately...
You're right, we DO need a movement!
How you doin' Jamastiene?

[Jamastiene]

57. Much better now that I'm with the people I really love, buddies on DU. n/t

[Jamastiene]

25. I don't usually use the ignore feature much, but

the ones who say it to me are getting it. I couldn't agree with you more. Hate the sin... is the mentality that got me raped. It's also made me consider doing things that I would never have even thought of before. And trust me, if anyone thinks I'm full of hate toward that religion now, didn't meet me right after I got raped. You don't want to know. Let's put it this way. If I was to warn our government that this one idea I used to entertain is possibly something the terrorists would think of doing that could devastate America, they'd arrest ME for ever thinking about it. I don't think about it now, because I realize I'd be hurting good people too, but back then, they inspired pure hatred in me with the hate the sin, love the sinner actions and words they used on me. I also get sick of hearing the word "preference". Are they admitting they like the same sex but "prefer" the opposite sex? It's called a Webster's Unabridged. If they ever decided to crack it open, they may get a better grasp of simple vocabulary terms. Maybe I should start my own religion, the Dictions, and our holy book would be a dictionary. It might do some good.

[RevolutionaryActs]

28. Jamastiene?

I am so sorry that horrible thing happened to you. :hug:

[Jamastiene]

29. Thanks.

I wish I knew you in real life. I wish there were more people like you where I live instead of the "hate the sin" types. :hug:

[RevolutionaryActs]

36. Me too, that would be awesome.

:)

:hug:

[Jamastiene]

40. I'm glad we met, in this virtual party house

Aren't you? :hug:

[RevolutionaryActs]

42. Yes.

Now we can cause trouble together. :evilgrin:

[Jamastiene]

47. I'm with ya all the way.

Let's give 'em something to talk about, as Bonnie Raitt would say. I loved that song. Haven't heard it in years and I don't know what, all of a sudden, made me think of it. :party:

[RevolutionaryActs]

49. You're silly, that's why.

:P

Are we going to hijack this thread? This is my first threadjack in GD. :o

[Jamastiene]

52. At your service.

You lead the way and I'll gladly follow. We'll party all night long. :wink:

[RevolutionaryActs]

54. lol!

Don't follow me, I'll only get us lost. :silly:

We could party all night, if only I knew the time. :crazy:

[Jamastiene]

55. I'm working on that as we speak.

I've just talked to a noted physicist in the lounge who said they would get to it just as soon as they get the metric system worked out. I figure if we start a movement, we can get time either abolished or adjusted BEFORE they do the metric system. If we show enough support for the idea, imagine all the minutes of our lives we would get to keep to use any way we see fit if we never had to adjust another clock or click another okay button telling the computer it did right. I wonder about that though. Don't you? Why if the computer is programmed to do it automatically for you, do you have to click okay when it does it?

[RevolutionaryActs]

56. Good.

I'll be here setting up headquarters... got to make sure there's plenty of coffee and cakes you know?

[Jamastiene]

59. Ah, just got a janitorial job in the lounge

where the physicists and other highly knowledgable types are discussing their plans as we speak. Perhaps, I can recommend your catering services.

[area51]

67. I'm so sorry.

My deepest condolences to you, Jamastiene.

[Merope215]

45. I completely agree

I've always hated that phrase, even when I heard it for the first time in 7th grade. Just to clarify, I'm straight and Catholic, but I don't think it's ANYONE's place to be judging other people - or deciding what is or is not a sin. I have ended friendships with people over that expression. And anyone who uses phrases like "sexual preference" needs to be reeducated.

I can't believe people on DU have been saying that - I haven't seen it, but I'll take your word for it. Thanks for that post. It's important to draw attention to that kind of bigotry, even though I truly think many of the people who use that phrase believe that they are being kind and tolerant. It's good to point out that when they say that, they are being neither.

:hug:

[mmonk]

46. And there are

gay Catholics. The hierarchy needs to adjust for its members that are. They can't take away who they are, whether Catholic or gay.

[LoganW]

60. Examples?

[entanglement]

61. "Hate the sin, love the sinner"

Its quite difficult for me to understand how anyone can honestly follow this teaching. Hate the murder, love the murderer? Hate the bank-robbery, love the bank robber? Unless 'love' is used to mean something else, I agree its coded speech.

[Solly Mack]

62. I grok

[Dutch]

63. I'm sure the late Pope hated being shot.

Was it "bigoted and dishonest" of him to forgive the man who shot him? Hating the sin and loving the sinner is a noble principle, if the love for the sinner is genuinely there; unfortunately, all too often it is not, and there's only hatred.

[Donailin]

70. He didn't hate being shot. Stop speaking for someone else

He regretted it as it is evidence of our own poverty of hope. If the Pope hated, he would never have had the grace to forgive and love the one who shot him.

Hate in itself is evidence of spiritual deterioration, there's nothing noble in hate.

[ruggerson]

77. So now we're comparing

fixed sexual orienation with someone attempting murder?

[Deja Q]

64. I'm with you. Utterly.

[Malva Zebrina]

66. You are exactly right

I have had hundreds of conversations over the internet with the Christian extremists over the years, and that little meme is repeated over and over by them. I have not read a lot of the Pope threads, but if that is a meme they are using to defend the Pope on his harsh conservative views re homosexuality then I agree, it is immoral to join arms with the extremists on that. Could it be that there are a few religious extremists joined in as trolls on DU?

[ruggerson]

76. I suspect that's the case

One guy came on another thread pretending to be a "gay man with HIV" who then started talking about the homosexual "lifestyle" and defending the Pope.

Anecdotal, yes, but I've never run into a real, live gay individual who thinks the term "lifestyle" is anything other than demeaning and pejorative.

[Donailin]

68. I've always thought the phrase was ridiculous on it's face

'Hate the sin, love the sinner.' It's like the parent who says to the child, "I love you, I just don't like you"

If we loved one another in the first place as Christ commanded, there would be little sin to begin with, and the emotion of hate would have no place in our relationships with one another. People who are liked (which is the first step towards love)generally conduct themselves in a likable fashion. People who feel hatred coming from others (you can't separate the act from the actor)will in turn live up to the condemnation via the process of self hatred and negative self esteem. And it's a vicious cycle.

We're all sinners, we're all saints. We all have to draw out the best in one another, that's how we make one another likeable and lovable. Only then will stupid phrases like the above lose their place in our discourse.

I should add that I reject the idea that homosexuality is sinful or wrong. The religious cannot say, "God created each of us in his image" and then go on to say that homosexuals are not. Homosexuality is evident in every species on earth, and has been with us for all of recorded history without change in the percentage. It is neither increasing or decreasing. Proof alone that it is not a choice. Or a sin.

[Colorado Blue]

75. Yeah but. Even likeable people can be attacked! I agree,

having love in the heart is the best, the only way, to deflect hatred from within oneself. Hating in response to a rape, for example, is almost more poisonous than the rape. I speak from experience - an attack complicated by antisemitism in my case.

I found the ONLY way to deal with the situation, to keep sane and whole, was to embrace the principle of love. I will admit, I wore a cross, IDEALLY the symbol of such love, for a long time after that, as a reminder - even though it was Christians who attacked me.

Ironic, huh. But somehow the message in Jesus' words got through.

***

So - I ask again - how do you stop people from hating YOU?

Believe me, that can happen to the most loving, likeable, loveable person. And frequently, that attack is the result of a vicious set of principles, sometimes assisted by religious rhetoric and belief.

That's why I think religions, most of which espouse tolerance IN PRINCIPLE, need to extend tolerance IN FACT to everybody.

Women and gays and minority groups are frequently victimized, regardless of the cleanliness of their souls!

[Donailin]

78. "How do you stop people from hating you?"

Is it our purpose in life to be loved or to love?

Even when someone dislikes you or hates you, despite your efforts to love them back, love them back anyway.

If we governed ourselves according to the rules of the small minded, then we end up small minded also.

[Colorado Blue]

87. I quite agree, in principle! Still, it smarts, to be the object

of bigotry, discrimination, etc.

I can well understand the impatience of the gay community, for example. They are living NOW, being victimized NOW. For example, not to be allowed spousal rights in the case of illness or accident, is more than an insult or an inconvenience.

Nevertheless I truly believe we ARE going forward, as a nation and hopefully, as spiritual people.

Back in the 1960's, it was hard for people of color to vote and being gay truly was a stigma. Women have made progress as well, although it has been slow and sometimes I swear we are going backwards.

However, I think people who compare Conservative Christians to the Taliban are off base. It makes for good rhetoric but it isn't at all the same thing.

Personally - and this may be unfashionable - I am glad to be an American. We are not a perfect nation and we do not always behave well abroad (to say the least!) But we are WAY ahead of the game compared to many, if indeed, MOST nations. In spite of all our troubles - Bush, the mass media, so forth - we still have great control over our own destinies, IMO.

[gollygee]

69. I agree too

I appreciate that Catholic DUers are going through a hard time, but I don't like to see anyone, especially in a progressive community like DU, defending this kind of talk. There is no excuse for anyone to ever utter the words, "love the sinner, hate the sin." It is still calling gay people sinners and is still bigoted and inviting further bigotry and even violence.

[Jade Fox]

71. It is also a theory beyond the capabilities of it's advocates....

who, in my experience (I work for a conservative Christian organization),
do not possess the emotional or intellectual complexity to pull off that kind
of compartmentalization.

The truth for most people is that if you hate the "sin", you most likely have
a very hard time relating to the "sinner".

[yurbud]

85. people pick the easy parts they like to obey

Don't drink, don't dance, don't chew, or go out with girls who do--or if you do, do it furtively.

The pro-active commands seem to be ignored or done in a showy way. Those who give away all they have to the poor could almost be counted on one hand. There's Mother Theresa, St. Francis, and I think one of the homeless guys in my neighborhood.

[jbnow]

72. The pope was an old man

How many really open octogenarians do you know? Is it odd that he would believe traditional teachings were true? It doesn't lessen him as a "good" person that his beliefs were wrong. He was a man of his times and traditions.

It would bother me more if I believed in papal infallibility, but I just think he was an old guy doing the best he knew to do. I think he spoke from his heart. I disagree so much with many of his teachings...but that doesn't mean there wasn't a lot to admire.

I suspect that man really did love the "sinner" but I realize very few really do. If they consider something a sin and say they "love the sinner" it is to make themselves sound holy as they judge everyone.

Who wasn't a sinner to this pope? Not just gays but birth control users, divorced people who remarry without annulment, couples who live together without marriage and on and on. (Well divorced people or gays are acceptable to the church as long as they are celibate)

We admire many historical figures...some had slaves or at least accepted slavery, they all accepted women having limited rights such as not being able to vote. They were wrong. But in the times they grew up these things were accepted as right. Do we think they were all bad because of it?

I know this is harder because it is now and it affects our own lives. I bet he has already changed his opinion, sloughing off the bias he held as truth as he sloughed off his body...but we can't hear his new decrees.

I am not a fan of Catholicism or any religion that I know. They become institutionalized and limit spirit and inclusion. Jesus (man or myth) said "wherever two or three of you are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of you". He did not say "whenever you build big fancy buildings and get a lot of money from people..."
Religion goes wrong.
And the pope was wrong. But for Catholic guys born in 1920, he was a pretty cool one.

[beam me up scottie]

83. I think the key word IS sin.

Gays are on the fast track to hell just by being BORN different.
I agree about the other "sinners" when you posted
"Not just gays but birth control users, divorced people who remarry without annulment, couples who live together without marriage"

Women are definitely treated like second class citizens by the church, but they can still be "good" catholics and go to hell.

But don't you see, gays are the only group that has no choice about what they are. They are damned right from the start.
I think the whole premise is a bunch of crap but I can certainly understand anger towards a man (dead or not) who would condemn you for just being yourself.

[jbnow]

88. You aren't quite right

the church doesn't consider being homosexual a sin, nor expect that they should need to change their orientation. They can be open about their orientation and be accepted into the priesthood.

The catch being that actually having same gender (or any unmarried) sex is considered a sin.

Since the 70's they have put out official teachings (whatever they are called) calling for respect, freedom from violence (in speech or in action), mocking or any discrimination toward homosexuals. Catholics are called on to face their fear and prejudice regarding homosexuals and to treat someone poorly due to sexual orientation is a sin.

Even the deep and loving friendships between homosexuals is officially acceptable, but again the b*tch of it is they are to remain chaste.

Sorry no time for links now but it is very easy to google and get lots of links. I looked it up not long ago when some very biased catholic relative was calling the orientation itself a sin.

When it comes to not having a choice...others can be put in that position too. For example I vacationed with one of my grandmothers as a child and would attend church with her. She would always cry a bit...she was not eligible to receive communion. Her drunken, abusive husband had left her when she had 4 kids under five years old. She got a divorce and remarried. Sin, sin, sin. She, like homosexuals, could only be a Catholic in good standing if she opted for celibacy. (And she couldn't even become a priest) She never stopped going to church. Way too much loyalty to a stupid institution.

I don't really get the anger against the man, though I do the church as an institution. Again, he was wrong, but he believed he was right and it's not like he started the Catholic belief regarding it. I just don't think many Catholic or deeply traditional religious men in their 80's believe otherwise. He wasn't a mean man, but he was traditional. It is the traditions that are wrong.

[beam me up scottie]

96. Actually your grandmother DID have a choice.

She got divorced and remarried. That is a good example of how it's dogma affects it's heterosexual followers but I think gays have much more reason to be angry at the man.
I'm glad that they said intolerance is a sin but it's a wee bit hypocritical of them when you put it next to some other statements.

From "Pope calls for halt to 'evil' gay marriages"
Rebecca Allison
Friday August 1, 2003
The Guardian

"The Vatican yesterday urged Catholic politicians to actively campaign against legalising gay marriages which it said were evil, deviant and posed a grave threat to society."

and

"The guidelines, which were issued by the Vatican's orthodoxy watchdog, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, also described gay sex as inhuman and gay couples adopting children as "doing violence"."

and also

"There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law," it said, adding: "Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour ... but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity."

more at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1010281,00.html

Would you agree that the statement that "gay marriages which it said were evil, deviant and posed a grave threat to society" is a good reason to be angry?

Or that the statement describing gay sex as "inhuman" and that gay couples adopting children is the same as "doing violence" " is also?

I don't think homosexuals appreciate their behavior being called "deviant" or that sex with your partner is "inhuman", or that adopting children would be the same as "doing violence".

[jbnow]

100. Of course I don't agree with the statements

I had not seen those words though I knew the church was against all those things.

I don't know if your quotes were his words or the wording of "Vatican's orthodoxy watchdog". Those are hateful words.

The church and many churches and many who use religion to judge others are WRONG. I'm not debating that.
I understand anger at churches policies.
I understand that the pope is the head of the Catholic church and could change the official policy.

But I understand that some old Polish Catholic man could believe in his heart that he was doing the "will of the Lord".

I guess people could direct their anger toward him but again...what do they expect a man in his 80's raised Catholic in Poland to believe? I know change has to start with someone and on many issues it wasn't him. I don't have a lot of hope for the next elected pope either because it's the old cardinals electing him, but you never know.

I'm not defending the church, I don't defend religion. I wouldn't guess "god" is too crazy about any religion either.

But no, I am not angry at some old man who held beliefs I disagree with.

And by the way my grandmother had only the same choice the church gives to homosexuals...she could have been celibate. She was left. She could have tried hard to find the abusive drunk and try to force him to stay with her, but that would have been his choice even if she was stupid enough to try. (I realize you can buy an annulment these days)

The church is rigid and wrong. It has been even worse of course. This was a man who grew up believing in it.

[beam me up scottie]

102. Oh, I didn't think you were defending him

or the church. I don't hate the guy. I am an atheist and I'm not even gay. I'm just really over-sensitive because of all the flack gays have been getting for criticizing the pope on du this weekend. Your posts were actually really level-headed. I'm sorry if I seemed like I was lecturing, it's a knee jerk reaction inherited from my dad (I see red if I think I see bigotry). I don't think making sick jokes about the guy or saying he's evil is polite, I wouldn't do it, but I've also got my dander up because of all the "SHUTTA YO FACE" threads in gd that tell us how to act or feel.:P

I'm sorry for your grandma, she shouldn't have had to choose. I have no use for religion.
*snort* Your comment about god not being crazy about religion made me laugh. I hope that the pope-a-thon goes away soon, the ts-fest was bad enough. We have enough to do without these diversions. I have learned a lot about many du'ers this past week. Intolerance I've never noticed before from some but also a lot of support from others I've never met.

Again, sorry if I jumped your post, it was good talking to you.
Cheers! :toast:

[barb162]

74. I think the statement is a take on the concept of complete forgiveness

as the pope did with the man who shot him and other similar acts. It takes a very loving, strong person to do something like that. Did the pope do that to emulate Jesus as when Jesus was on the cross and said "...forgive them, they know not what they do...."

[RevCheesehead]

105. Barb, I think that's a very good question.

And I think "emulate" says it best of all.

I believe what is missing in the above debate is a better understanding of "sin" and "sinner."

First, let me define the parameters: Jesus summarized the content or meaning of the commandments by saying it's about loving God, and loving your neighbor. If you truly love, you will behave in this way. For this reason, I define "sin" as a failure to love: a failure to love God or one's neighbor. When I say "Jesus died for our sins," I am really saying "Jesus died for our failure to love. AND, he rose to new life, so that I may be able to love others."

A Christian should know, understand, and believe in their heart that s/he IS a sinner. I sin. Everyone sins. Even the Pope sinned. That is a basic tenet of Christian theology, that ALL have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God (with the exception of Jesus).

Too many people equate forgiveness as some kind of act of moral superiority. This is wrong. For someone to realize that they are "The Forgiven," it should instill compassion and mercy. Once someone has that clear (about how they have been forgiven over and over), then they should with mercy, forgive others who harm them.

Forgiveness does not mean the acceptance of abuse. But what forgiveness does do is free our own hearts from hate. I forgive, not because I accept what has happened to me, but because I do not want hate to rule my heart.

I would also hasten to add that for someone to call someone else a "sinner" is perjorative and arrogant, and it does not emulate the teachings of Christ. Remember the woman caught in adultery? Jesus says to her (after the incident), "where are your accusers? Does no one condemn you? Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more." Jesus did not condemn the woman, and did not specifically call her a sinner. We Christians forget that part.

Clearly, adultery is a sin (see the Top 10 Commandments). But I do not agree that homosexuality is a sin.

[H2O Man]

80. The word "bigoted"

is improperly used here. The rest of the message is questionable.

[ruggerson]

82. A bigot is

someone who is "obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." (from Webster's).

If someone clings obstinately to the belief that homosexuality is a "sin," then, ergo, that belief is bigoted.

[yurbud]

84. it's a good principle for legit "sins"

If you were talking about a thief, gang member, or drug addict, that's exactly the way a progressive should act.

The problem with the right is that on a lot of issues they don't apply the second half--it's a lot harder and not as fun.

Even if the preacher who says hate the sin not sinner really means it by the time it soaks into the head of some of their flock, it transmogryphies and simplifies into "God hates fags."

[MominTN]

89. Jesus commanded us to love our enemies

Because of your sin, He died on the cross. He definitely loved the sinners in spite of their sin, and gave the ultimate sacrifice of his life. Everytime I listen to name callers on here, I have to remember He died for your sins just as much as He did for mine. When we follow Christ's teachings we are not being bigoted. We are only dishonest if we lie. Everyone has their daily struggle against sin. We can embrace others, and still feel revulsion for the condition of sin.

[ruggerson]

90. Where did Christ ever say being gay was a sin?

I'd like the actual scripture quote, please.

And don't give me anyone else. I want CHRIST SAYING IT.

[MominTN]

91. He died rather young to write His memoires

You'll have to take His earthly brother's word for it.
Jude 1 : 7

[ruggerson]

92. Thank you for proving my point

He never said it. He never wrote it. There is nothing in the Bible to evidence that he said ANYTHING about being gay.

[ruggerson]

93. He had a lot to say about divorce however

Why don't we organize, you and I, to propose a constitutional amendment outlawing all divorces. Jesus, after all, was unalterably opposed to divorce.

[dsc]

95. My Bible (The New Revised Standard Version) states

Likewise Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Nowhere does gay appear. In the footnotes sexual immorality and unnatural lust are defined as wanting to have sex with angels.

[tjdee]

94. Didn't happen.

I've read the gospels a few times, and I don't believe Jesus ever said anything about it--which I find hilarious, because if it was SO BAD, you think he'd have mentioned it once or twice.

It's sad, though, how some Christians twist and manuever to get their heads around the gay "thing". I know a fundier Christian fellow who equates being gay with lying, etc. He says that sin is sin, and that he sins as much as anyone and being gay is no worse than any sin he commits. He's trying, at least. I'm trying to get him to not think of being gay (as God MADE people) as a sin at all--I mean, DUH.

[JerseygirlCT]

97. Well, it also assumes that being gay is somehow sinful

a premise I reject.

I think it allows people just the wiggle room they seek to continue calling themselves people of faith AND to continue to hold tight to their prejudices.

[mattclearing]

98. While I agree that there is no excuse for the treatment of GLBT community

The idea of "hate the sin, but love the sinner" is based on teachings that Christ is purported to have made.

Turn the other cheek and all.

Sadly, a lot of wrongheaded people have appropriated that language.

I would give fellow DU'ers the benefit of the doubt.

After all, many do not even understand that Democrat is not an adjective.

[mondo joe]

103. I don't care who hates me ANYWAY. I only care that I'm equal before the

law and that my civil rights are protected.

Outside of that, others are free to love me or hate me as they choose.

But the "love the sinner hate the sin" BS is particularly twisted even as twisted logic goes.