Change within the Church will follow the will of its people.

[ScreamingMeemie]

I deeply admired and respected John Paul II. My daughter attended a Catholic grade school. I was a faithful attendee of Mass every Sunday morning...until the Diocese of Detroit decided to dedicate a Sunday morning in October to pushing forth the anti-gay agenda of this administration. From that moment on I realized this was not what the Catholic Church had taught me as a child. I was taught not to judge, to accept my neighbor as my brother/sister. And here, this Church was preaching against that...so I left...still holding many of the "good" values of the Church. Many left with me. Many, myself included, refuse to put another cent into the collection basket. I stepped down from Pastoral Council, stating my beliefs. Many others have. If changes are not made, many more will follow this path. It is happening in the Anglican Church here in America. It can happen in the Catholic Church as well I believe.

I still believe in the true teachings of the Catholic Church...the ones that have gotten muddled by businessmen and those drunk on power. I believe, just as I believe will happen in government. If the people stand tall and refuse to break then the Church itself will bend.

May John Paul II rest in peace. May he be remembered for the good that he did: for remembering the children, the poor, and those who fight for true peace in the world. May future popes gain knowledge from his mistakes. May we all work together, regardless of our beliefs to make this a better world...for humanity first and foremost..setting aside all else.

[MichiganVote]

1. Don't hold your breath. Churchgoers may change, not the hierarchy /nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. When 63 year old kindergarten teachers (my son's) walk out of church

with their families in the middle of mass...I get hopeful. I'm odd that way. What does one do when there's no one to preach to? No money in the coffers? My leaving alone cost our small parish $2500 plus another $3500 in tuition...not to mention time and talent on various boards. :hi:

[MichiganVote]

9. The way to get their attention is to have mass said by a married priest

and donate your funds directly to the charity of your choice. You will be told that the mass is unsanctified but there is no law against it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. Their attention has been gotten. We, the departed, have been noticed.

:hi:

[MichiganVote]

12. Sure they'll notice you. But they will not change for you.

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. Sure they will. Because I'm not the only one.

I think you and I are going to disagree, so why not sit this one out? :hi:

Change is already happening.

[RevCheesehead]

3. Hey, Mrs. G

I hear and understand your point, and it was well made.

What I'm wondering is, did you tell your priest why you left? I have trouble keeping up with 150 people, and if someone disappears, I usually don't notice right away.

I agree that change is up to the people. I don't know about Catholicism, but I do believe that the most effectual change comes from within the institution. At the very least, I hope that you have let someone know the reasons why you aren't there. Those reasons need to be heard.

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. You bet. During the last council session I attended and then during a

personal phone call asking why we had stopped giving to the church and to Catholic Services. He knows and they know. Donations are down by 20% and growing from last year. (The bookkeeper is still a good friend)

[RevCheesehead]

7. Good for you!

:applause: I'm glad you let them know exactly how you feel.

I admit to feeling a bit weary when some people complain, but in reality do very little to either let their criticism be heard, or put their words into actions. I never got the impression that you were that kind of person, though. I'm glad to know my impression was right. :)

[MichiganVote]

8. You don't understand. Catholic hierarchy views leaving as

a sin of those who have left, regardless of the reasons why. You're supposed to pray your way out of your difficulty. If the church priests say stop for green lights, you stop. The church is not a Democracy, never has been and never will be.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. My priest understood exactly why I could not continue on in my

role and is human enough (even though we disagree greatly on a number of views) to admit his own struggles with the church. Bishop Gumbleton is an admired and respected (by many Catholics in Michigan) member of the Church here in Detroit...even though his views on war, birth control and the position of women in the church are direct conflict with the current teachings of the church. So I would say as one who was involved until a later date than you were...that your statement is false.

[MichiganVote]

15. Actually my post was in response to the Rev

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. I did not know I wasn't allowed to respond to it.

:shrug:

[MichiganVote]

19. Touchy, touchy Mrs. Grumpy, merely clarifying. Post what you want

when you want I don't care.

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. Thank you. I appreciate your allowing me.

:hi:

[RevCheesehead]

17. With all due respect, MI...

I understand a lot more than you may realize. I am not an ignorant protestant. I have studied Catholicism, and own a copy of the doctrine of the Catholic church.

United Methodists are not a democracy, either. We are an episcopal institution, and we are bound to the Book of Discipline. Right now, our Discipline says that I cannot perform gay marriages, or hold a service of blessing for gays. Do I agree with this? Absolutely not. Do I ignore the Discipline, and do it anyways? Not at all. Why? Because at my ordination, I promised to follow the Discipline of the church. We priests take that very seriously.

It is one thing to be bound to official teaching, doctrine, and discipline. It is quite another thing how one interprets what is there. For example: Mrs. G said that her local parish took a sudden conservative direction, right before the election. To my knowledge, Catholic teaching did not change during this time. What did change was the focus. This is a politicization of the gospel (and, IMO, reprehensible).

I follow the Revised Common Lectionary (the RC lectionary is only slightly different). In the 3-year cycle of events, the appointed lessons nearing the end of Ordinary Time focus on Christ's teachings about the Kingdom of Heaven - NOT the election of the US President, or the moral compass of its citizens. The last I heard, priests were still writing their own homilies, and not reading from a script. I am not aware of any directive from above that told all priests to actively denounce homosexuality and abortion at this time. That's called homiletical interpretation, and it is something with which I am quite familiar.

A priest is not powerless. A priest still has choices in what he will emphasize, and what he will present to the community of faith.

[Larkspur]

4. The Roman Catholic Church is not a democracy...

I was raised Catholic but left the Church in 1990 due to its insistance on male supremacy. Unfortunately, the laity have no control over the Vatican let alone who their parish priest and bishop will be. It takes centuries for the Catholic Church to make progressive changes within itself, and John Paul II has stock the college of cardinals and archbishops with very conservative men, so I don't expect progressive change to happen in my lifetime. The Church's patriarchal infrastructure is ancient and very old and keeps reenforcing itself. That is the root of the problem with the Church.

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. I do. I completely expect it. In Detroit especially, the Church made a

huge, and costly, mistake by backing Prop 2. It may take time, but it will happen. :hi:

[mitchtv]

14. thank you Mrs G.

as a gay man and a product of 12 years of RC education. I thank you for your courage. I am a believer in the Jesuit philosophy of primacy of conscience; don't let these others dissuade you . it is no sin if you don't think it is. It is the only way these RW heirarchy will learn- the republican way , by assaulting their engorged purses. This 'ideology of evil' thing is more appropriate to PNAC than some gay couples. It hurts deeply.

[pretzel4gore]

18. this reminds me of a southern church

back in the 60's i think, in a story told by someone half remembered, some southerner catholic (in a forgotten context) anyway a young idealistic priest new to the small town was doing his first sermon, and he began talking about christ's teachings on differences, and how it applied to catholics' relations to other races, meaning black people....the person describing what happened said s/he could feel tension growing and nervousness etc until someone yelled something out...the priest tried to continue but several members shouted in anger, then about half the worshippers got up and walked out...your story is diametrically opposite to this one in moral, but if i remember it correctly, the point was that it was sad that the church in the south had too often stood by when such things as brute racism were accepted as normal ....
the church's teaching on sin isn't judgemental...sin is sin. Gayness is a fact, like blackness was down south for the catholics there, and the church applies its teachings inside w/out kowtowing to fickle public opinion. It seems the church hasn't fully grasped the import of homosexuality (i've known people who could not be anything other then gay!) and one would think pandering to anti gay public opinion within the walls would be banned from the top down, esp in light of the sex abuse scandals....