On the passing of Pope John Paul II

[Skinner]

I would like to extend my condolences to the Catholic members of our community, and to anyone else who is mourning the passing of Pope John Paul II.

I am not a Catholic. I'm basically non-religious, although there was a time when I was a devout Protestant Christian. I have very fond memories of the time when I was active in my church, and I have an intense personal understanding of how it feels to have faith.

While I disagree with much of what the Pope stood for, my impression is that he seemed to be decent man who tried to do the right thing. Terms like "liberal" or "conservative" in this case just don't seem to fit, and may have the effect of obscuring a more subtle and nuanced truth. As many DUers have mentioned, John Paul II was generally conservative on issues like abortion, gay rights, women and married people in the priesthood, and contraception, but he was more liberal and spoke with great moral clarity on issues like poverty, the death penalty, the excesses of Capitalism, the Iraq war, and reaching out to other faiths.

At very least, there is arguably some consistency in his stated belief in a "culture of life," unlike the extremist nut-jobs running our country right now, whose idea of a "culture of life" only includes fetuses and one woman in Florida without any higher brain function. The stark contrast between the Pope's worldview and that of the current administration in our country does not make the current administration look very good, IMO. That contrast is made more obvious by the transparent efforts of the administration and the media to tie the two together. In the last 24 hours on CNN, I have seen both George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan compared to Pope John Paul II, despite the gaping ideological chasm between them.

I understand and agree with DU members who wish the Catholic Church did not discriminate against women and gays. But I hope we can all try to show some sensitivity to Catholics and other believers in our community, many of whom are upset by the news of the Pope's passing. It should be obvious that now is not an appropriate time for people to be expressing glee over anyone's death or posting other highly inflammatory comments. It is possible to discuss our legitimate disagreements without being disruptive or inflammatory.

This is a diverse community, and we disagree on many things. But I hope that during this time when many of our members are grieving, this community can be a source of support and understanding for our brothers and sisters of faith.

[bertha katzenengel]

1. Well said, Skinner.

[Dorian Gray]

89. Very well put, Skinner...

You spoke eloquently about your feelings for the man, and your feelings for the Catholics who are a part of this community. Most of us know that many who are not Catholic disagree with the Catholic Church and John Paul II's positions on many things. I'm sure most of us also understand the many degrees of distrust for the Catholic Church.

But there is much good associated with that church, and if you look at the sum of the acts of the Catholic members on this website alone, you will see the goodness that can emanate from that institution. Many of us find that goodness in the Pope. While I completely understand why those who stand for gay rights or female rights may distrust the institution, and I can accept dialogue on those issues (even now), I am happy that you've requested that obvious bashing must be restrained for the time being. I think that there are many here who have been effected one way or the other at the news of his death. We all need to understand, but compassion (one thing that I personally believe the Pope stood for, even in the face of philosophical and theological differences) is needed right now. For all those in pain.

[WilliamPitt]

2. Thank you, Skinner.

[wryter2000]

3. Well said

As I understand it, the Pope is a spiritual father for many Catholics. We don't always agree with our fathers, but we generally love them and mourn their passing. Mocking a loved one of many DUer's on the occasion of his death is cruel, imho.

Spoken as a lapsed Episcopalian.

[WI_DEM]

4. Very well put

thank you.

[mmonk]

5. Thanks Skinner

[WildEyedLiberal]

6. Thank you

The hate has been getting out of hand today. Hopefully people will listen to this - I understand if they have differences with the man, but he was a good man who did what he believed to be right, and now that he has passed, it is mere courtesy to respect those who mourn him.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

7. Thank you

For taking the time to compose this, and adding your voice at time when many here are greatly saddened.

[RoyGBiv]

8. Well said ...

And thank you.

I am not a Catholic myself, but a very dear friend of mine is, and seeing how this has affected her has forced me to question a great number of things about my own life and my own faith. I find myself sad, not for my friend, but for all of us. We've lost something substantial today.

We are all, including the Pope, human beings, and we have flaws. Some of us have more flaws than others. A distinct difference exists between someone like Pope John Paul II who fundamental mission was one of peace and our current leaders, whose fundamental mission is the acquistion of wealth and power. We may not all agree with the Pope in all things, but we must respect him, accepting that he had flaws but that those flaws pale in comparison to a great many of us.

[SW FL Dem]

9. Beautifully put Skinner - Thanks

I'm not Catholic either and I too disagreed with Pope John Paul II on many issues, but I did respect and admire him for his obvious love for people of all races, classes and religions.

[pres2032]

10. thank you

very well said.

[Mr_Spock]

11. Appropriately said - thanks

I tried to hide this with all the other 30 Pope threads in GD, but I can't hide "Administrator" threads - oh, well :D

[cynatnite]

12. Reflections on the Pope

Looking back over the years of watching John Paul II I remember thinking how wonderful of a man he must be. Thousands of people flocked to him and watching him reach out to the diverse poeple all over the world was inspiring. No matter the religion, color or sex, he loved all. That's the kind of man he was.

I did not care for his stance on birth control, gays, and other issues, but his consistency when it comes to life and peace only shows that this was a man who felt bound by his faith to follow his own conscience. I respect that.

Gaining such respect from so many millions all over the world, no matter what, is no small thing.

While I don't care to put people on such a pedestal as is being done and will continue to be done, to compare him to Bush of all things, is insulting.

John Paul II was human, a great one, but still human. The world is less for losing such a man of peace.

Well said, Skinner.

[BeatleBoot]

13. You are a class act, Skinner.

I am a Catholic.

And I disagree with much of what the Church has done in the past.

Personally, I call it peaceful co-existence.

I'm bummed out because he was Pope for most of my life and, say what you will about the Church, he lived a fascinating life.

When I was younger he came to my state and kissed the ground. It was moving.

There is a strong Polish-American community here and he connected with the area's Catholics.

He was just a good dude. And I think he wouldn't mind me saying that, in that manner, at all.

[mzmolly]

14. Great post.

eom

[fishnfla]

15. They compared the Pope to Bush and Reagan? Jesus Christ

It really is time for the "culture of the internet" to take over from this worthless shit that is our broadcast media

[stray cat]

32. If I were the Pope I would be offended at the comparison.

[bigwillq]

16. Great post Skinner

There's a lot of points in there that I strongly agree with and some mirror my sentiments about the Pope and the Catholic Church.

Well put. :)

[Rowdyboy]

17. Beautifully stated....

You speak for me, also....

[DemExpat]

18. And me....

DemEx

[Paradise]

20. and me... n/t

[Pithy Cherub]

19. Peace and Understanding for all.

Thank you Skinner.

[Zech Marquis]

21. thanks Skinner

my girfriend is a filipina who's very religious, so right nw it is a hard time for her spiritually. i'm also not Catholic, but I will respect the kate Pope and pray that he willindeed have a positive impact on us all.

[Longgrain]

22. Thank you Skinner, from a non-practicing Catholic

who is, for the first time in a long time, approaching some very confused feelings toward the Pope and the Church.

Thank you so much for posting this intelligent and well thought out thread.

Here's to all...:toast:

[Beware the Beast Man]

23. Thank you, Skinner, that was excellently put.

:hi:

[Kerrytravelers]

24. Thank you, Skinner.

I"m a Catholic, and like many, I strenously disagreed with the Pope in matters of choice, homosexuals and women in the clergy.

However, even though I disagreed with him, I can respect how he formed his opinions. He was educated and enouraged others to do so. Catholicism is based on God's words and philosphical/intellectual thought. He didn't just have an opinion because "God said" or "them liberals" or "President Bush is our leader" kind of non-thought. He held his beliefs and had strong reasons for them. He challenged people, but he listened to them as well. He was one to surround himself with people with whom he agreed, which will lead us to another conservative Pope. However, he ackowledged those with whom he disagreed. He was close to one of the presidents of Italy who was an agnostic.

No one agrees all the time, but when someone has given a lot of thought and weighed all the matters of the world to form their opinions, it changes how I view them. ALthough he often stood for things that I am totally opposed to with all by being to the depth of my soul, I always felt that in the Pope's world, I still mattered- unlike *'s world.

[pinto]

25. Thanks Skinner.

[Trajan]

26. Well Said, Skinner ....

Your comments ring very true ....

This Atheist will simply bid him a decent farewell ....

Goodbye Papa .....

[ulysses]

27. thank you, Skinner.

Well said. :thumbsup:

[smitty]

28. What are you saying?

In a supposed memorial to John Paul II you waste half your time bashing George Bush and the Catholic Church. As for the Pope "he seemed to be a decent man"---thanks for the faint praise.

[Redstone]

80. If you don't like it, you can always find a different

online community; one that's more to your liking.

I get the feeling we won't miss you if you do.

Redstone

[SeveneightyWhoa]

96. You have a problem with Bush bashing?

Are you perhaps at the wrong forum?

[TankLV]

127. What? The two couldn't be more dissimilar.

Bunkerboy is a phoney, first and foremost. Any "words" of his are purely contrived for political purposes. Bunkerboy has no morals, is corrupt, evil and criminal. He doesn't have a decent bone in his entire body - along with his synchphantic family and party. None.

The Pope is in a different universe. He has a good heart, means well, only has the best intentions for the world and humanity as his top priority. He was not perfect in any sense - he was merely human and mortal - but he is a lot closer to that ideal than any repuke, especially that criminal in OUR White House!

[BigBearJohn]

29. I'm grateful that we have you at the helm of this blog.

Thank you for your wisdom.

[Cooley Hurd]

30. Agreed...

Thanks, Skinner.:thumbsup:

I also wish to add my condolences to Catholic DUers.

Rest in Peace, Johannes Paulus II

[n2mark]

31. Thanks Skinner

I disagreed with the Pope, but he loved people and he was the catalyst of freedom in Poland.

[Straight Shooter]

33. I am sad; however, I am not crying over his death. But my mother is.

She is Italian, Roman Catholic to the innermost depths of her soul.

On her behalf, thank you for your kind, eloquent words, Skinner.

[alcuno]

79. I was crying at the start of mass tonight.

and for a couple of hours prior. Thank you, Skinner.

[Selatius]

34. I'll stand behind your words, Skinner

I no longer consider myself a Roman Catholic and haven't been for several years, but I feel sympathy for the suffering of everybody regardless of what happens. To feel is to be human.

[hyphenate]

35. On the occasion of the death

of the spiritual leader of one of the largest faiths in the world, it is not repeated often enough that some people have an indomitable spirit to fight many of the world's ills and put that heavy weight on their own shoulders. John Paul, while a politician first, walked many miles in the shoes of those he cared about and loved.

While many of his views reflected his own upbringing in a communist Poland, he had an unflagging need to help people around the world deal with the upheavals that brought the 20th century from horse and buggies to a highly technological state. He was not shy in his pursuit of seeing justice done, and was rarely the sort to back down from such megalomaniacs as GWB. He will be missed, and definitely not forgotten, even by those of us who were not of his flock.

[Redstone]

36. You speak for many of us, and I salute you.

Redstone

[stubertmcfly]

37. Thanks...

...for putting that into words that (hopefully) everyone can understand and respect. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[fooj]

38. "Keep the faith! A new era is upon us, and with faith and love

all things are possible."

Recently, a wonderful friend shared this heart-felt sentiment with me. Hope sustains us. What a priceless gift! Pass it on...

Peace!

[EFerrari]

39. Oh geeze, you started my waterworks all over again.

Thank you, Skinner. What many of us (including myself) haven't been getting is that in the culture of Catholicism, this man was a relative, a father. And much as I disagreed with him, far as I've walked away from this Church, I appreciate your understanding of this loss.

B.

[Discord]

40. Very well said and thank you!

I am very non-religious. And while I have strong disagreements on many of his social issues, I don't hold that against him as he is expressing his religious beliefs which are based off of Catholic traditions. As Skinner stated very well, he was consistent in his views on the real "culture of life" and didn't pick and choose ones that suited an agenda. I have great respect for John Paul II, because I truly believe that he had a heart, genuinely cared about humanity, and was the first religious leader in my time to reach out to those of other faiths and those of non-religious nature to find the common ground of humanity, and how we treat one another. He preached tolerance to those who were not Catholic, and never condemned publicly those who might not agree with Catholic teachings.
I might be against "The Church", but I respect "The Man".
The world, both believer and non believer alike, pay respect to a man who cared about us all.

[tammywammy]

41. Very well put

I'm not Catholic and disagreed with the Pope's stance on many issues, but I give my condolences to the many that grieve his death today.

[UrbScotty]

42. THANK YOU SO MUCH, Skinner.

:thumbsup:

[Pharaoh]

43. I really loved the Pope

Jerry Falwell on the other hand I won't miss much........:dem:

[Melynn]

44. Thank you, Skinner

Hopefully people will remember that a little civilly goes a long way at a time like this.

[Logansquare]

45. Kick n/t

[chefgirl]

46. You're a good man Skinner

Thank You Skinner for the kind words.

As a Catholic, we were taught as little children to think of the Pope as our own personal 'Holy Father', a representative of our Father in Heaven.

We Catholics have indeed lost our 'Father' this day.
The hatred toward him, and the truly hurtful disrespect of him, on this site, has been extremely difficult to bear over the last few days.

Your words have gone a long way toward healing the wounds of many Catholic DUers.

Thank You Again,

-chef-

[johnnie]

47. I agree with you for the most part

The only thing I disagree with is your statement about Pope John Paul in regards to " married people in the priesthood". Although it seems like a sexist attitude to have, this is part of the catholic churches dogma and if people don't like that, they can go to another Christian faith.
I know it it not popular here, but the Catholic faith is their own and by not having women priests or allowing priests to be married is not "the man holding us down". It is just the way it is in their church.

[TankLV]

128. The Catholic Church DOES "allow" married priests - there are many.

Just not in the "Roman" rite.

[Just Me]

48. If only everyone had your capacity to put things in a sensitive and,...

,...respectful manner.

I sincerely offer my sympathy to all those who grieve. :hug:

[kaitykaity]

49. Credit where credit's due.

:kick:

Immanently reasonable given all the jumping around
you're probably doing right about now.

Thank you for all that you do.

[mopaul]

50. .....

.....

[northamericancitizen]

55. thank you Skinner

[Jilly Beans]

51. Yes...

True liberal tolerance for our differences has been demonstrated on DU by most DUers today. However, a select few are behaving like assholes. Hope they don't ask for sympathy for some future unforeseen tragedy. Fuckwads will always be fuckwads.

[mvd]

52. Thanks for posting this, Skinner!

:yourock:

[ExclamationPoint]

53. In a time of death,

the labels of conservative or liberal don't matter, all that matters was that John Paul II was a person who did matter quite a lot to many.

I know many Catholics who are democrats and/or liberals, and those I know who aren't still I know to be very kind, generous people.

[peacefreak]

54. Thank you.

The beauty of this forum is that we can agree to disagree & still be a community in the best sense of the word. If nothing else, these past 5 years & especially these past few weeks have taught us all something about loss.
If you are lucky, when you go there will be someone to mourn your passage. Those left here will grieve in their own way. Peace be with you one & all.

[Kindigger]

56. I've been thinking all day....

Remember the */Kerry thing about "who would you rather hang out with?" I think I would have liked to "hang out" with the Pope. I think back to seeing him on TV...all the children gathered around. He was like the Pied Piper, or St. Francis surrounded by little animals. Even the picture posted earlier with the Clintons... they seemed to be enjoying a really juicy joke.

I think it was PBS the other night doing a story about his life. He was in a huge stadium, and a Latino, born without arms, was singing and playing guitar with his feet. When he finished, the Pope jumped out of his seat, and went up to kiss him on the forehead. Then he leapt from the stage like he was 20 years old, and waded into the crowd. The guitar player said the SS was freaking out. :)

Whatever his politics, I think he was someone who managed to tap into his inner child, and have fun. He was so genuine. I think that without the robes, he really may have had a beer with you.

I'm not "religious", but for some reason I've always thought of him as the leader of the whole World.

I will miss him. He lived and died bravely, and touched so many.

[understandinglife]

57. Exquisite, cogent, empathetic. You not only write well, you are a leader.

Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.com

[Greylyn58]

58. Very well said..

and may his soul finally be a peace.

O8)

[Coventina]

59. Thank you for this post Skinner

I'm not Catholic, but I respected JPII.

I truly believe that he was a man of God/dess.

[ronnykmarshall]

92. and he is with god/dess now.

I'm sure that my brother, my father and my grandparents have greeted him with love.

Not to mention my beloved cat, Mickey is sitting on his lap right now.

Bless you holy father. Thank you for your service on earth. I'll see you one day.

[Maeve]

60. Always a class act. Thanks, Boss!

:hug:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merh]

62. Thank you Skinner!

:hug:

Your compassion and understanding is appreciated. Karol Wojtyla does not know the hate many have expressed in this forum, he no longer knows pain and suffering. When others attack him, they are not harming him, but members of their own community. That is sad. I am so glad that you posted this thread and have utilized your gift of empathy. :hug:

His Holiness is dancing the polka with the angels this weekend, Polish celebrations can go on for days!

Celebrate with the Father and his angels, Karol Wojtyla, you so deserve it. :loveya:

[5thGenDemocrat]

71. "Dancing the polka with the angels this weekend"

Beautiful. I'll remember that one.
John
Does some writing himself, but not hardly that well.

[Bonhomme Richard]

63. Thanks..........n/t

[deacon2]

64. Amen, and thank you

As stated several times prior, I am a highly conflicted CathoBuddhist and my disagreements with the Church go back 35 years. But I still feel deeply for the hundreds of millions who are without their leader today. Like all human beings, Pope John Paul II was a mixed bag, but his essential decency carried the day for me. He wasn't shy about scolding our Caligula-in-Chief, and his caring for the poor and the oppressed seemed most genuine to me. If there is a heaven, he is in it tonight. I ask him humbly to greet my mom and dad for me. I miss them.

[UTUSN]

65. How Does Such a YOUNG Dude Say JUST THE RIGHT THING

the thing somebody as old as me has taken forever to figure out and can't say as well?

[UCSBLiberalCat53]

66. Points well-made

thank you, that was extremely well-said. Thank you for the call for sensitivity.

[ronnykmarshall]

67. Peace be with you Skinner.

The Pope meant a lot to me. I'm not Catholic as well and not a religious person per say, but I believe in god.

Pope John Paul II touched my spirit and I think that Tony (Cuban Liberal) said what I feel.

We may disagree, like we might with a parent, a relative or a loved one, but I respected and loved the Pope with all my heart.

Thank you Skinner for you words and thank you to DU for you understanding that many of us are saddened by the passing of the Holy Father.

[dolo amber]

68. You didn't use the word "pontiff" once

:(

I love that word...it sounds like a lovely French pastry or something. :9

Very well said, Skinner. Thanks. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

69. Agreed

Although I don't agree on many things that came from the Vatican, I do not deny that many of my fellow Du'ers are in pain and are grieving. I hope that my disagreements are not taken as disrespect for your religion, as they are not intended as such. I do hope that those in pain and who are grieving may find comfort and peace. May your faith carry you through your darkness!

Blessings!

[shelley806]

70. I share your religious background, and while I'm not 'religious' I

have a firm belief in an intelligent loving God of the universe. I also share your opinions about Pope JP II. He is so far removed from this current administration's mouthing of 'pro-life,' that the comparison nauseates me.

"As many DUers have mentioned, John Paul II was generally conservative on issues like abortion, gay rights, women and married people in the priesthood, and contraception, but he was more liberal and spoke with great moral clarity on issues like poverty, the death penalty, the excesses of Capitalism, the Iraq war, and reaching out to other faiths.

At very least, there is arguably some consistency in his stated belief in a "culture of life," unlike the extremist nut-jobs running our country right now, whose idea of a "culture of life" only includes fetuses and one woman in Florida without any higher brain function. The stark contrast between the Pope's worldview and that of the current administration in our country does not make the current administration look very good, IMO. That contrast is made more obvious by the transparent efforts of the administration and the media to tie the two together. In the last 24 hours on CNN, I have seen both George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan compared to Pope John Paul II, despite the gaping ideological chasm between them."

These are excellent observations; thank you so much for the post.

[Catshrink]

72. Thanks, Skinner!

ITA

[jhain]

73. We Have Lost A Great Leader

Thank you, Skinner.
I, too, am grieving the the people's loss of a great leader.

No matter the Church's stance on issues....John Paul II was a man of Peace.
He was one of a handful of world leaders to stand up to the Bush Administration and to speak against Bush's wars.

No one in America's current government will ever understand the work of John Paul. No one in America's current government will ever comprehend his life of 'service'.
And because we claim no such leader here we mourn the passing of this great man.

[bonito]

74. You my friend have a true following. peace. n/t.

[NoPasaran]

75. Well said

I was raised a Catholic but left the Church many years ago. I know that it remains a source of guidance and comfort for many. John Paul II was one of the great figures of our time and like all complex men some of what he did was good and some maybe not so good. I want to extend my condolences to all who are mourning his passing.

[truebrit71]

76. Excellent message

This post encapsulates exactly what I love most about DU.

Tolerance and respect.

Thank you.

[wellstone dem]

77. Thank you Skinner

Those were words I needed today.

[autorank]

78. Very well put. Ads great dignity to this forum.

[njdemocrat106]

81. Thank you, Skinner and DU

While I know many here, and even many of us Catholics didn't always agree with what the Pope taught, he defintely cared about the "culture of life", and like someone else posted here, understood that the culture of life went beyond the fetal issue. I will pray for a more socially liberal Pope (I am strongly pro-gay marriage), and I will continue to pray for the soul of John Paul II (who I just found out from my cousin that I am a distant relative of.)

Thank you all.

[Cuban_Liberal]

82. Thank you, Skinner!

Well said.

:D

[RevCheesehead]

83. This is very meaningful.

Thank you for your kindness and sensitivity.

May I offer you a virtual hug? :hug:

[JerseygirlCT]

84. Very well said. nt

[President Kerry]

85. Skinner, thank you..

It's a great loss for the world. Rest in Peace, Ioannus Paulus II PP...

[Padraig18]

86. Thank you, Allen.

You're a class act!

:hug:

[checks-n-balances]

87. Thanks for reminding us to "Take the High Road"

You're right - he transcended labels, and sometimes I disagreed with him. But his uniqueness and his longevity as the Pope will make him sorely missed around the world.

I'm not Roman Catholic, but as a "sister of faith," I appreciate this thread and what it says.

[stevedeshazer]

88. kick for Skinner

[Padraig18]

90. Kick

:)

[DeepModem Mom]

91. Thank you, Skinner...

for this, and all you do.

[tmooses]

93. I truly appreciate your comments at this time. I think the pope

was a true spiritual man-one who devoted his life to his religious beliefs and his view of mankind. I look on the pope with admiration for the energy and courage he brought to his faith. Many of his beliefs I do not agree with, but I believe he was a man who valued peace and the human side of society. I was raised a Catholic and my remaining family members are still very devout and I respect them for that. My spiritual views have changed (evolved?) to some more personal ideas on what the hell we are here on this planet for. There are so-called religious leaders in this country who claim to be so devout but it all rings hollow and has an undercurrent of their own political agenda and hate-mongering. Even though the pope espoused views on gays and a woman's right to choose that I don't agree with, I believe he was sincere in his beliefs and not malicious.

[lolamio]

94. Eloquently put - thank you. n/t

[ultraist]

95. Well said!

:kick:

[Dookus]

97. Hmm...

"my impression is he was a decent man who tried to do the right thing."

Not my impression. Perhaps if you were gay, or a woman, or a victim of a pedophile priest who was sheltered by this man, you'd feel differently.

[Berserker]

101. Thanks skinner

now can you please remove that pop-under?

[jonnyblitz]

109. I am with you.

whitewash.

[RiDuvessa]

98. Thank You.

Very Classy.

[tedzbear]

99. No gay basher is a decent man in my book.

What a bunch of baloney.

[WillowTree]

100. Nicely said, and with class.

Thank you.

[Feathered Fish]

102. Very kind words

Thanks. :hug:

[liberal43110]

103. Very well said...

Thank you.

[Scurrilous]

104. Well said...

...:thumbsup:

[KBlagburn]

105. We are sad, but God is happy

His good and faithful servant is home. I am not catholic but
John Paul II truly touched me. He used the papacy to reach out to others of all faiths. He taught us what it really means to love. No matter faith, class or race, he loved us all. He left this life as he lived. With grace, dignity and in peace. We are all diminished by his passing. As we mourn his death we should celebrate his life and be thankful that God allowed this great and holy man to walk among us for awhile.

To John Paul II I say this: Thank you and may you rest in God's eternal arms and may he welcome you into his kingdom. Amen

[Swamp Rat]

106. Word, brother.

[juajen]

107. We all should celebrate and revere this man of goodness.

Agreement with everything I believe in has never been a criteria for my regard.

I belong to the Church of Mankind in my elder years. The Pope is my brother.

Thank you, Skinner, for this gracious post. I personally appreciate it very much.

[westernpenndem]

108. Thank you, Skinner

This Catholic appreciates you thoughtful post. Well done!

You are a class act, indeed.

Here are some of the Pope's best quotes posted tonight on Democrats.com...

http://www.democrats.com/node/4108#comment-25432

JPII - RIP and many thanks.

[joytomme]

110. Well said and eloquent, Skinner, but...

...I question almost everything that is premised on, "this is not the time".

Such as, when the GOP fraudulently won two elections, it was not the time for Dems to raise hell...it would have seemed like sour grapes, it would have seemed like we were poor losers. We should bide our time. Bullshit.

As then, now is exactly the time to talk about where the late Pope stood on important issues shaping our policies and our politics.The Pope is a political figure and he and the Catholic Church have been egregiously wrong about gays and about women being allowed to choose whether to have babies or not, He even voiced an opinion that brain-dead people should be kept alive by machines when his own church says if keeping people alive by extraordinary measures is more of a burden than blessing it should be stopped. These are wrong moral choices and they were made by the Pope.

His Canonizing of the egregiously evil founder of Opus Dei is a travesty. He has set the church back 100 years. A decent man? No. John the 23rd was a decent man.

I do not see why I should act as though I revere this man when I do not just to be in accord with not speaking ill of the dead. There are 293,000,000 people in the USA. Only 66,000,000 are Catholics. People who think the Pope is holy won't like what I say about him in two months any more than they will like it today. If the Pope were only a man of the cloth, then I would agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. But he has been a world-wide political figure for over a quarter of a century. To say that now I should hold my tongue because he's a great man of the cloth is ridiculous. First and foremost he was a politician. And we must speak out about the terrible results of his politics.

Now is definitely the time to see the Pope and the Catholic Church clearly. Now. Today.

[TwentyFive]

112. Joy - thank you for writing what you said. And welcome to DU!!

You are so right.Thank you for putting your heart into what you wrote. Evil people & institutions always count on the goodness of others to help them get away with their crimes.

Catholic church positions on issues such as stem cell research, sexual orientation, women's rights are CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

The pope was just part of an large, powerful institution that only cares about human life when the cameras are running. Otherwise, they are busy killing souls.

[TwentyFive]

111. Somebody has to say it.....Any pope, by definition, is an evil man.

The catholic church is excellent at PR and brain washing.

How many gay & lesbian catholics commit suicide over their inability to turn away from their healthy & natural desires? How many unwanted children are brought into the world by unprepared mothers?

What other wealthy institution can murder the souls of thousands of young, innocent boys....and when caught red handed...pay high priced lawyers to sweep it all under the rug....while the church calls itself a beacon of goodness?

They were quite effective at slowing stem cell research....but how many Alzheimer's patients will suffer as a result?

I've got to hand it to them. It amazes me how people can be so easily fooled.

[Cuban_Liberal]

117. Which part of positive thread did Skinner not make clear? n/t

[Dorian Gray]

140. I second Cuban_Liberal's sentiment...

Positive thread... There are plenty of other places on this site alone to air your grievances.

I respect Skinner's OP, though. It was truly beautifully written. And most of the posts in this subject prove that despite some strong idealogical differences, the Pope truly garnered respect from many. It's beautiful.

[njdemocrat106]

136. Umm, I think you are terribly wrong

You compared the Pope to Charles Manson, and the last time I remember, His Holiness didn't brutally murder several people with his own hands in the late 60s. I think it is understood and expected, on a liberal board such as DU, to have disagreements with many of the teachings of the Pope, who has been known to make conservative stances on many of the issues dear to a liberal's heart. I myself am pro-gay marriage and birth control, personally, but the Pope bases his teachings on what he believes is God's will and intent (and I know there are many non-believers here, but remember the Pope was a man of very deep faith). And the Pope was not personally involved with the cover-up of the sexual allegations that topped the headlines a few years ago. On a local level, it was many of the Bishops who were involved, and many of them have been appropriately reprimanded for covering up that sad part of Church history. As liberals, what makes us better than the conservatives is our tolerance of people of different racial and faith backgrounds, and respecting a man who, in my most humble opinion, truly did his best to advance the cause for peace in this world should be no different. Yes, the Pope advocated "traditional family values" when many of us realize that we live in a world where values evolve, and should include single parents, gay parents and partners, birth control, and the right to access abortion (I personally don't agree with abortion, but as Bill Clinton said, it should be "safe, legal, and rare" and the use of birth control would reduce the cases of anyone having to make a serious ethical decision). I enjoy DU for its openness, and I would never deny anyone the right to speak their mind. Yes, the Pope's many conservative stances don't jibe with our liberal stances, but to refer to the Pope as Charles Manson is like when all those fundys were calling John Kerry a "baby-killer" due to his pro-choice stance (Kerry is not an abortion doctor, and whatever hurt the Pope might have caused anyone, rest assured, was never intentional). I know I won't change your mind, but my faith assures me (forgive me for being preachy, but I have the right to believe what I want, and I believe in Catholicism) that the Pope is in a better place, and hurling insults at a genuine peace-maker is no better than the Republicans and conservatives who only tolerate others who look and act exactly like them.

Sorry for the rant, people. Honestly, I still love y'all! Let's get back to fighting the true evil in this world, starting with a certain chimpanzee and his owner with an elephant-strength pacemaker instead of a heart. :)

[one_true_leroy]

146. This and the original post hit precisely at the root...

Though many of us here are ideologically opposed to at least some of the stances the late Pope and, by extension, the Catholic Church, I have a great admiration for the consistency of his message. This Pope has done more to advocate the central tenant of Christianity, LOVE, more than any other pontiff, an advocation that extended to all people, regardless of faith or differences. In this age of political hypocrisy run rampant, to have maintained such a simple, unwavering message over such a long period, and to guide his institution in the direction to foster more reconciliation, a more truer sense of universal love, and to have used his position to advance the interests of Christ, rather than the interests of the Church can only be regarded as exceptional. His 'Culture of Life' at least extended to ALL people, from conception to natural death, and was consistent, a trait lacking on both ends of the political spectrum. Though I never understood precisely the rationale for the exclusion of gays and (especially) of women, I can at least respect that a 2000 year old Institution does not change radically on the head of one leader. I believe this Pope has done more to bring the Church in line with a more modern understanding of Christianity, to have reconciled the Church with other Faiths and Science (remember when he approved of evolution?) and other aspects of an evolving world. I believe this Pope did an amazing job, and I hope (and pray) the next will continue to advocate a more reformed Church.

[ngGale]

113. Thank you Skinner, I'm speechless...

I was surprised today as tears began to fall down my cheeks. I too, have had some problem's with our dogma. But, he's taught me so much during the last ten years, being so sick. He began as a lively funny person who loved children. During 2000, some were taken aback when he apologized to the Jews and ask for their forgiveness. He is the only Pope who ever got to pray inside the Mosque where Mohammad rests. He only wanted Peace, he said no war was ever, just.

With his illness, he taught us how to live, how to handle suffering, and in the end how to die with dignity. He chose not to have his life lengthened by artificial means, he wanted to die at home in peace.

In our church illness is called, "the kiss of the cross."
He bore his well.

Thank you again, Skinner.

May peace be with you always.

[muchacho]

114. condolences

Not being a religious man myself I can only imagine what this passing might mean to some of you here.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rpannier]

116. Nicely written

I commend you.

[Gman]

118. Thank you, Skinner and don't forget JPII told Bush that

"If you go to Iraq, you go without God."

[freebird1]

119. Well Done Skinner

Thank you !

[Fla Dem]

120. Thanks Skinner,

No human is without flaws. It is not wrong to celebrate the goodness of this holy man.

[anarchy1999]

121. Thank you Skinner for all you do. Can I make a small request,

put Terri and the Pope into their own forum. Please.

[lonestarnot]

122. Ok I'll try to be nice starting now. n/t

[Stew225]

123. Classy sentiments. I'm a former Catholic and

did not agree with all this Pope represented. But he was a sincere person, I think.

Like myself, he lost his entire family at an early age. The fact that he attained such a position is astounding!

Plus, he died with grace and dignity!

[LTR]

124. Very well put.

I think you summed it up nicely.

JPII was a very good and honorable man who did what he was supposed to. The Roman Catholic Church is steeped in very old tradition, and it's not necessarily easy to change that overnight. Not even in 27 years.

He worked with it the best he could, and he did a good job. As for the church's position on women, gays, sexuality, etc., perhaps someday, but it won't happen with the church overnight.

JPII was a class act, and any naysayers here at DU should remember that he was perhaps the biggest cheerleader for world peace in the last quarter century, and did more than anyone else possibly could have in this regard.

[AuntiBush]

125. While not Catholic, I'm saddened by his death... Great World Loss

He countered Bush & Co and believed he was the evil one, as do I.

Skinner, you're right. The Pope was very liberal, anti-war and spoke up for poverty. He was adamently against capital punishment and said so to Bush; against excessive Capitlaism he in deed reached out to many faiths.

I think most are worried about who will replace him. And, CNN makes me sick - heard the same thing. Disgusting and vile they are.

[TankLV]

126. My condolences to our Catholic community.

By now, you all know my strong feelings on this person and the institution of the Catholic church.

Most are strong and hardly positive in light of the church's stance on GLBT, choice & the recent elections.

However, in light of all the good this man has accomplished, and what I believe is his genuine wish for the best in this world for mankind, unlike the current occupants in control of our government, I will refrain from any negative or derrogatory remarks on this sad occasion for millions.

My he rest in peace and find the happiness in his afterlife that he so strongly wished for us all.

That I can say without any doubt.

[Demit]

129. "John Paul II was generally conservative on issues like

abortion, gay rights, women and married people in the priesthood, and contraception"?

Very sweet of you to put such a kind face on it, Skinner, but the Pope was more than "generally conservative" on these "issues". He unequivocally said NO to all these issues. No, and no discussion necessary. The Church Has Spoken; ordinary members of the faithful need not weigh in with their little opinions.

This Pope was chosen to be the conservative face of a Church that wanted to remain conservative, to not change dangerously with the times. I certainly hope he was against poverty and the death penalty and unjustified war! That people laud him for these things as if they were daring stances mystifies me.

As a Catholic, I appreciate the effort of non-Catholics to express their condolences. But this Catholic sees the natural death of one more head of the Church, who is not only not irreplaceable but who will be replaced promptly by the power structure who decides these things; there has no doubt been much jockeying for position within the power structure. I imagine there are many dry eyes at the Vatican, as there are in any highly political organization, as they horse-trade for who will be the next head of state.

[DinahMoeHum]

130. Amen, Brother Skinner.

n/t

[Cuban_Liberal]

132. Kick for Sunday afternoon. n/t

[Duncan Grant]

133. Kick (nt)

:kick:

[Padraig18]

134. Kick. n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

135. Thank you, Skinner.

I am a Catholic saddened by the pope's death even though I disagreed with much of his social conservativism.

[T_i_B]

137. Kick

although I doubt that the Ian Paisley tendency on DU will be listening here.

[Scurrilous]

138. Kick (n/t)

[indepat]

139. Well said for the difference is vast: the extremist nut-jobs running our

country are bringing incalcuable ruin upon our country in ways too numerous to fathom.

[Jonx6]

141. Thank You, Skinner. n/t

[Auntie Bush]

142. Kicken for Skinner.

[Lindsey]

145. Thank you Skinner....

beautifully, beautifully expressed by you. This is not the time to be critical of a man who millions loved very dearly. Thank you for your wonderful words of wisdom.

[cassandra uprising]

143. thank you

i'm a practicing catholic and i'm used to getting confronted with my my seemingly incongruous feminist and religious beliefs. personally, while i don't agree with all church dogma, i get too much out of it to as the cliche goes - throw the baby out with the bath water. i'm deeply saddened by the passing of jpII. i've only lurked on other pope threads because some didn't deserve comment or others made me want to think, research and reflect and not be so quick to defend my personal bias.

all in all the posts that i've read in du have made me consider arguments that i hadn't really entertained before about my faith. thank you to du and thank you for your words and perspective.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

144. Thanks, Skinner.

I appreciate the sentiment. I also wish the Church didn't discriminate, but as with anything, I try to help the faults and embrace the good things.
Duckie

[DesertRat]

147. "On the passing of Pope John Paul II"

Thank you. It is a sad time. Bush called the pope "an inspiration to us all." Too bad Bush wasn't inspired when John Paul II BEGGED him not to start a war in Iraq.

[donheld]

148. May he rest in peace