A DU Thread in Unabashed Support of Our Troops:

[David Zephyr]

A DU Thread in Support of Our Troops:

Yep.

This is a thread of unabashed support for our troops who are now serving in harm’s way at great sacrifice physically, emotionally and financially to themselves and their families.

They didn’t start the war in Iraq.

They didn’t fabricate the falsehoods about the stockpiles of "weapons of mass destructions" in Iraq.

They didn’t attempt to scare the public with lies about potential “mushroom clouds over American cities”.

They didn’t sign up for duty in their hometowns all across the nation in order to enrich executives at Halliburton.

They didn’t volunteer for service that would take them into a gray zone of fuzziness with regards to the merits or lack there of with the Geneva Convention.

They did not formulate the ignorant “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy that cruelly discriminates against the gays and lesbians that they know personally and who are risking their lives everyday at their sides.

They didn’t mastermind an invasion where they would be the actors without the gear to protect them.

They didn’t forget to plan for a post-invasion caretaking of an entire nation, especially when their Commander-in-General had sworn publicly that he disdained “nation building.

They certainly didn't play-act as soldiers as some in the White House have. No, they became real soldiers.

They didn’t brainstorm a military policy that would require rotation after rotation after rotation in and out of the active, hot war in Iraq.

No, they didn’t.

They did however, do what they were asked to do without the luxury of being able to critique the policy.

They did wave goodbye to their wives and husbands and sweethearts not knowing if they would return, and if so, in what condition.

They did kiss their children ---their babies --- goodbye as good mothers and fathers do knowing someone would have to keep explaining over and over again when daddy or mommy was coming home again.

They did watch their own moms and dads along with their grannies and gramps holding back the tears as they suffered gut wrenching pain at watching them ship out.

They did watch quietly as most all of the justifications for the War in Iraq were proven publicly to be lies or based “on bad intelligence”.

They did watch their friends be blown into pieces in front of their tender eyes by an unforeseen enemy now called “the unexpected insurgency”.

They did witness their fellow soldiers lose arms and legs who seemed somehow to have just “sucked it up” and held back from whining.

They did suffer collectively as a few rotten soldiers abused their power over civilians knowing that they probably would be falsely accused someday of such behavior themselves by some jackass back home.

We owe them our gratitude, love, respect and honor. Nothing less.

And to the parents, wives, husbands, children, families, friends and loved ones of anyone serving overseas, I’m certain that your love, your letters, phone calls and support means just about everything each day and night to them.

Finally, I wish to leave the following two photos of the first Native American Woman to die in Iraq and of her two precious children left behind.

Support the troops? Absolutely.

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. You bet.

Excellent post. :hi:

[solinvictus]

2. Nominated...

Don't blame them for the shitstorm, blame the civil leadership in power.

[Don Claybrook]

3. but just what does "support the troops" mean?

This is a recurring theme here. No, I don't wish any harm to US soldiers. At the same time, I don't wish any harm to come to Iraqi civilians.

Does "support the troops" mean to bring them home, right now, today? Then sure, I support them.

Does "support the troops" mean to mindlessly cheer any killing that they are ordered to do? Then no, I don't.

I have no doubt that most of these soldiers are good people, just wanting to go home. But they're good people who have been pressed into the service of something vile and despicable. So they don't just get an automatic, flag-waving pass. The situation is a little more nuanced than that, and all the elements of the situation flatly refuse to fit on a bumper sticker or in a 45-second Hardball spot.

[Midnight Rambler]

7. Different things for different people

Down in freeperland, "Support the Troops" means little more than sticking a flag on your behemoth of a truck.

[unsavedtrash]

Little flags my ass. This guy said it best a few years ago

"Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore"

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.
Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.
Repeat Chorus:
Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...
"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."---John Prine

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. For me it means holding the right people accountable for the atrocities

they've been forced to participate in. Yes, I say forced, because most people would do the same damned thing if in their combat boots. For me it means meaning it when I cry over the part of F9/11 that shows the recruiters attempting to dupe poor young black men into uniform...and not turning my back upon them when they don the uniform unwittingly. It means sending boxes of treats. It means logging onto the websites daily that show the faces of those who have paid the ulitmated price...to keep them from being just a number in my life...it means so Very Damned Much.

[sharonking21]

23. To present-day Democrats, I think

that "Supporting the Troops" merely means acknowledging their humanity, their difficulties, the lonesomeness of being a young person sent by our country afar to risk their lives. Doesn't mean at all that you support the war or support killing civilians or intend to give anyone a blanket pass to do ill.

[beanball]

34. Why support people

that do evil things?,I agree with everything you said.

[Longhorn]

82. For me, it means wearing the bracelet bearing the name of my son's

former platoon mate who was killed in Iraq (www.herobracelets.org) to remember his service (some proceeds going to the families.)

And it means being there when my son questions his role as a Marine and letting him know we'll support his decision, whatever it is. It was extremely difficult for him after he watched F9/11 and after he found out about his friend. It will be an issue again if he's ever deployed to Iraq.

And it means being grateful that he's stationed in Japan and relatively safe (until the Idiot Boy stirs something up with North Korea.)

It means putting the blame for this fiasco where it belongs.

[unsavedtrash]

4. my nephew is shipping out this month

He only joined the reserves to help pay for college. His job will be protecting convoys. Those of you who do pray please ask that my sister's baby boy not come home in a box. Those who don't please send good thoughts out to the universe for him.

[The Doctor.]

11. The military has access to signal jammers...

''The American people would be outraged if they knew how few of these vehicles have signal jammers,' -Rep. Gene Taylor

"Congress has given the military a blank check to buy armor or signal jammers, Taylor said. ''We've said, 'Go fix it. Send us the bill.'''

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/10386530.html

Every little bit - one hundred of these devices can pay for themselves
if one US soldier is saved.

May God's will have safe his return.

[Auntie Bush]

15. I'm sending good thoughts and prayers .

I've asked for many prayers on this site and they were answered so your's will too. Bless your sister's baby boy and all the other troops. Bing them all home now. And to hell with th people responsible for sending them there in the first place.

[whitedove]

16. I'll say a prayer for your nephew!

My son in law is scheduled to be deployed in Aug., please say a prayer for him too. He is a helicopter mec., he joined the Army as a way to get out of poverty and to go to college...

Please pray for all our soliders, their loved ones left behind and for the Iraqi civilians.

Peace and Blessings!
Whitedove

[anarchy1999]

18. Done and then some, always and everyday!

n/t

[unsavedtrash]

115. thank you all

:loveya: :hug:

[The Doctor.]

5. These are brave kids in a hard place...

I wish they knew why they were really there.

But I do pray for a peaceful and democratic Iraq (no matter that ** will take credit) so those kids can come home.

But I know better.

May God guide our soldiers and protect the Iraqi citizens.

[whitedove]

6. Bring them home, NOW!

:cry:


Peace,
Whitedove

[Pushed To The Left]

8. Great post!

I agree 100%!

[JDPriestly]

10. They sign up for many reasons,

but they all believe they will be defending their families, their country and their way of life. Unfortunately, they are being sent in harm's way for no good reason. There were no WMDs, no terrorists, nothing to defend against in Iraq. It is sad that our soldiers who are, for the most part, good men and women, are being misused and mislead by dishonest, incompetent leaders.

[nytemare]

12. Nothing disturbs me more than the administration's abandonment

Of the soldiers they sent to war. The way the Bushies keep saying Abu Ghraib was the "acts of a few" when they knew damned well it came from them. These troops are in 115 degree heat working very long hours, facing death, and their leadership failed them.

I served under Bush 1 and Clinton, and NEVER had the sense of abandonment that these troops must have. It is like "The Who" line, "the men who spurred us wrong, sit in judgement of all wrong."

I admire that reservist who had the balls to say something to Rumsfeld about lack of armor for the Humvees. It worked. Too bad our press that has the balls to ask the hard questions are whisked out of the press room.

Very nice post, Zephyr.

:)

[G_j]

13. we want them home

NOW!!!

[maddezmom]

14. Great Post

:thumbsup:

[JimmyJazz]

99. All except for the people who decided to turn this into a troop

bashing thread. How shameful.

[bobthedrummer]

17. The road to peace is guarded by veterans, not Dick Cheney.

Nor "contractors".

You've been misled.

You know that already.

Be safe wherever you are tonight, our thoughts are with you.

[seito]

19. To those now serving and to the veterans that served honorably,

you have my heart felt thanks. This government has betrayed all of us. My hope is that one day very soon, those responsible will be held accountable for the atrocities that have been committed.

We need to bring our soldiers home now.

20. I don't buy it.

It is certainly true that US soldiers are being used and do not get to decide when, where or why a war takes place, but to support all soldiers unconditionally is ultimately to support the war. Do you support the troops when they spray Baghdad with depleted uranium? Do you support the troops when they do house to house searches terrorizing Iraqis? Do you support the troops when they torture, rape and murder prisoners? Do you support the troops when they destroy an entire city, because you think they don't have a choice? The reality is that they do have a choice to refuse illegal orders. The entire war is illegal, so it is their responsibility to refuse to serve. Many soldiers are doing this, I support them.

I don't support soldiers just because they're soldiers. I support them when they make the right decision. Soldiers are people too, and as such they have minds of their own even if the military tries to destroy that. They make choices. I think we should be nuanced in our understanding of these choices, so I don't totally condemn everyone over there, but I cannot "support the troops" unless they are actively refusing.

[whitedove]

29. I am sorry,

these soldiers are doing what they are told to do. And I support them, maybe not support what they are doing. They are following orders. Look into what happens to these soldiers and their famlies who don't follow orders. Do you have a loved one who has to go to Iraq?

Peace and Blessings.
Whitedove

[Djinn]

131. no US soldier HAS to go

it's a nasty choice - court martial or be part of an illegal war and the deaths of 100,000 people (and counting) but if someone said to you here's your choice - beat this detainee to death or go to jail what would you pick?

I unconditionally support those few who've had the courage to refuse or to blow the whistle - the rest I hope they can return home in one piece but I can't say I support them.

[Laurab]

41. Actually I don't think it said "support them unconditionally"

and I certainly don't support all soldiers unconditionally, but I think the majority of are them decent young people, stuck in kind of a quagmire themselves (not the quagmire that is Iraq - a kind of military quagmire). I know my nephew, who is a refueler, was supposed to leave Korea for Iraq last month. I don't know where he is right now.

He signed up basically because he had no future. He re-signed in wartime (Afghanistan), the idiot. He said we have no business being in Iraq. He was going because it was his job. He now has a wife and a baby to support. I see him, and many like him, as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. He's not an outgoing guy, he's not a leader, he's a follower. I think it takes a lot of guts to actively refuse. I think it also takes a strong personality, a strong support system, and a ton of confidence. I'm not sure your average soldier has those things.

I support him and those like him. I cannot picture him harming anyone - he has no hatred toward the people in the countries we have invaded, but he's doing what he signed up to do. He (and everyone he talked to in the military) were also hoping for a Kerry win. He's in a situation he doesn't know how to get out of, and he has a family to support. I see him, and the other young people like him, as victims of Bushit's war. I just don't think actively refusing is as easy as it sounds, and I don't think everyone has what it takes to do it.

So, they go, because they feel like there's no way out. If he was MY son, I'd do everything I could to get him to actively refuse, then again, if he was my son, he wouldn't have gone in the first place. He's not my son, and he really has no one to get guidance or direction from in his own family situation.


On the other hand, my daughter and my niece had the misfortune to meet a young man who had just returned from Iraq. He had a Bush sticker on his car, and they asked him if it was a joke. He began talking about the war, and how he couldn't wait to go back and shoot those "gooks". That's the mindset I can't support (my daughter & niece fled after he wanted to show them some souveniers or something). That kind of mindset is also common, I think, and I believe the military often encourages that type of mindset.

I don't support the troops unconditionally, nor do I condemn the troops unconditionally. Each and every one of them is a separate human being, as we all are. Many are as innocent as the people they have been sent to fight against.

It's not black and white....there are many shades of gray.

[anarchy1999]

120. Thank you for your beautiful and insightful post! I've not had the chance

to welcome you to DU. Welcome.

Shades of gray says it all. We become consumed with our passion many times, you gave me some perspective. I still do believe though, our soldiers just need to say no. They don't know how, well then it's our job to teach them.

[Laurab]

125. and thank you!

I basically agree with you. The nephew in question is my step-nephew, and his family situation is not, to say the least, the best. I have no real input on his situation. I did, however, ask him a lot of questions when he was home in October.

I have a 22 year old son and 24 year old daughter of my own. I've begun sending my son things to document being a conscientious objector if necessary. I don't think he takes it too seriously, but at least he has it, and I know he's saving it, and was also going to talk to a priest about it. Actually I think he thinks I'm a little nuts, but he's hedging his bets in case I'm right. He's anti-shrub, but just doesn't think these things are going to happen.

I don't worry about my daughter, cause she'd see a gun and faint, and I'm sure she'd do whatever was necessary if/when the draft comes. The only way either of them would be going to fight in one of bushit's wars would be over my dead body.

I personally think the draft is coming, and I think most of the population who will be hit by it will be surprised. Those of us here won't, so we kind of have a head start.

My heart just aches for ALL the innocents affected by this insane administration.

[sharonking21]

21. Let them KNOW you haven't forgotten

You can go to the Website AnySoldier.Com and get the addresses of soldiers, Marines etc in Iraq and Afghanistan or other far outposts. Send them a warm letter or a package of goodies.

http://anysoldier.com/index.cfm

The Democrats in my precinct here in liberal Austin got together to send boxes to them and I have been writing letters, packing and mailing the boxes, etc. I've sent about 15 boxes so far and still have quite a bunch of stuff to box and ship.

On this website, you can see what they are asking for--most of their requests are simple, such as letters, certain goodies they can't get over there, certain personal hygiene items they run short of, used magazine, books, CDs, DVDs, sox, etc. I try to enclose a letter in each box or send a letter ahead of time. Sometimes I also send Teddy Bears etc to give to any Iraqi children they meet.

One person often is speaking for anywhere from 3-4 to 50 or more in their unit. They pass the letters around and share the boxes. They also often post photo's of their unit or messages to say thank you.

In my letters, I try to keep it non-partisan. I tell them a little about my family, tell them people in my neighborhood got together to send things, thank them for their service, say I'm here if they need someone to talk to, give them my address and email address. I send them photos of home in my letters, of me, my grandchildren, the cat, my son, my aunties eating Thanksgiving Dinner, whatever.

[Disturbed]

24. Praying to a God.

Does any God have anything to do with what happens on this planet?

Praying for the troops that a God will keep them from being killed, maimed or getting PTSS or participating in War Crimes seems strange to me. If there was such a God she/he would have killed all of those in the Bush Junta before they stole power the 1st time.

I do not support any troops that are carrying out an illegal war and participating in slaughter.

[sharonking21]

27. Sorry, I didn't say a word about any God

I think you must be responding to someone or something else. Nevertheless, I think your comments lack compassion. No reason to blame our kids--and these are our kids. Have you ever thought that perhaps the failure is more on your part? Perhaps you tried to stop this war, but you obviously failed.

[Bill McBlueState]

59. that's a great picture

It's a very strange god indeed who would allow the Bush Junta to get away with these atrocities, yet will still respond to petitions to "protect the troops."

This god must either be evil enough to support the murder of civilians, or too weak to stop it.

I said the same thing after 9/11.

[Itsthetruth]

22. BRING EM HOME!

All very good reasons to bring our troops home NOW!

[AnotherMother4Peace]

25. Thank you for this post - I support our precious men & women

in the military when I complain to the media about the lack of coverage. There's a damn war going on & days go by without mention of it, but you sure hear about Michael Jackson. What a disgrace.

Compared to what our sons & daughters are having to face each day, writing, phoning, e-mailing our politicians & media everyday is very little to ask of each of us. We need to stand up, become loud, and support our troops.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. They also suffer silently the overt hatred of some who confuse the war

with the warrior

[BeFree]

30. What war?

Iraq is no war, it is a police action: an occupation of a country that does not want us there. Our boys are not gallant warriors, they are mere pawns on a chess board being played by elite, rich murderers.

I support garbage men more than I do these pawns. They had a choice, same as I, when making the decision to take up arms and learn how to kill. They made their choice, I don't and would never condone or support that choice to be employed and be in service to murderers.

Imagine there were no soldiers anywhere; That would mean peace on earth. That I can support, nothing less. Sorry guys, you will have to do your dirty deeds without my approval or support.

[BlondieK143]

42. Then why come in this thread?

Obviously you clearly have no intention of supporting them. Next time, go on your merry way and don't disturb a thread for those of us who do support them.

[Bill McBlueState]

60. I thought this was a discussion board

not an agreement board.

[BlondieK143]

64. Do you have to posts your points twice?

You made them clear without stating anything else other than rude sarcasm. I think you've made it clear.

[Lucky Luciano]

113. hey some of those people signed up

hoping to defend the US in the event of an invasion and that is a legitimate reason...they did not know that this would happen in Iraw. A good number of them who signed up knowing full well about Iraq are often poorly educated and feel they are really defending the country due to the propaganda machine - propaganda is a more powerful weapon than a gun sometimes.....then there are those that want to get out here and "kill some ragheads." Those ones are scum.

[tabasco]

28. Hoooah Bro.

US Army 1981-1995

Airborne, Ranger, CIB

[oasis]

31. I gladly support the men and women who put their lives on the line for us.

Whole heartedly and enthusiastically. :bounce:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. I served in the military many years ago. Just how are our troops....

...putting "their lives on the line for us" by getting shot at in Iraq? From what exactly are they protecting us? The last time I checked, Iraq wan't guilty of doing anything to the US.

Like the original poster said, they didn't ask to go there. They were sent there for NO VIABLE REASON that any sane person can see.

[oasis]

40. I stand by what I wrote the way it was written. Don't misquote me and

tack on a lecture about the Iraq war. Where did I mention that, btw?

Here it is again: "I support the men and women who put their lives on the line for us."

Is that clear?

[DerekG]

107. What lecture?

Media_Lies_Daily merely challenged your assertion that those soldiers are putting their lives on the line for us. And I agree with him: there is no sacrifice in our occupation, just meaningless death.

[oasis]

112. Please read my original post and then tell me what I "asserted".

Again, I support the men and women who put there lives on the line for us. My post was specific to troops who DO put their lives on the line.

If you or other posters do not support any troops for any reason, I have no problem with that.

The title of this thread asks those who support the troops to post a reply. That's what I did. No where did I indicate that I supported the war, or disorderly behavior among our armed service personnel.

[Djinn]

132. but they're not putting their lives on the line for YOU

you were never in any danger, they're lives are on the line to further the profits of the already obscenely rich.

which troops are you referring to btw if not those in Iraq? which US soldiers are currently protecting Americans from actual harm?

[oasis]

135. How much danger would Americans be in if we had no troops at all?

America is blessed with having the best armed services in the world, which is a measure of protection in itself.

I'll write it for the 4th time: I support the men and women who put their live on the line for us.

The troops that do.

I'll leave it up to folks like you to sort out the troops that don't.

[Djinn]

137. folks like me

how bout just saying what you really want to instead of making chikenshit euphemisms?

I'll say it again

how are the troops in Iraq putting their lives on the line for you, in any way shape or form?

[oasis]

138. Once again: I stand by what I wrote the way it was written. I've already

written what "I really wanted to say" plainly enough and I'm not going to write it for a fifth time.

BTW, the OP intended this thread to be a boost for our troops.

Your hounding of posters who had positive responses to this thread is borderline obsessive behavior. May I suggest that you turn in for the night?
:hi:

[LibertyorDeath]

32. They opened fire on the prisoners with the machine guns

( Thanks to Duer norml for this )





Special Report

Army reservist witnesses war crimes
New revelations about racism in the military

By Paul Rockwell
Online Journal Contributing Writer



April 1, 2005—Aiden Delgado, an Army Reservist in the 320th Military Police Company, served in Iraq from April 1, 2003 through April 1, 2004. After spending six months in Nasiriyah in Southern Iraq, he spent six months helping to run the now-infamous Abu Ghraib prison outside of Baghdad. The handsome 23-year-old mechanic was a witness to widespread, almost daily, U.S. war crimes in Iraq. His story contains new revelations about ongoing brutality at Abu Ghraib, information yet to be reported in national media.


snip



DELGADO: The worst incident that I was privy to was in late November. The prisoners were protesting nightly because of their living conditions. They protested the cold, the lack of clothing, the rotting food that was causing dysentery. And they wanted cigarettes. They tore up pieces of clothing, made banners and signs. One demonstration became intense and got unruly. The prisoners picked up stones, pieces of wood, and threw them at the guards. One of my buddies got hit in the face. He got a bloody nose. But he wasn't hurt. The guards asked permission to use lethal force. They got it. They opened fire on the prisoners with the machine guns. They shot twelve and killed three. I know because I talked to the guy who did the killing. He showed me these grisly photographs, and he bragged about the results. "Oh," he said, "I shot this guy in the face. See, his head is split open." He talked like the Terminator. "I shot this guy in the groin, he took three days to bleed to death." I was shocked. This was the nicest guy you would ever want to meet. He was a family man, a really courteous guy, a devout Christian. I was stunned and said to him: "You shot an unarmed man behind barbed wire for throwing a stone." He said, "Well, I knelt down. I said a prayer, stood up and gunned them all down." There was a complete disconnect between what he had done and his own morality.

Q: Commanders permitted use of lethal force against unarmed detainees. What was their response to the carnage?

DELGADO: Our Command took the grisly photos and posted them up in the headquarters. It was a big, macho thing for our company to shoot more prisoners than any other unit.


snip


http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/040105Rock...



( Thank to Duer DeepModem Mom for this )


LAT: In the Eye of the Soldier (soldiers make gory music videos in Iraq)



In the Eye of the Soldier
Armed with digital cameras, GIs in Iraq shoot battle footage and edit it into music videos packed with death and destruction.

By Louise Roug, Times Staff Writer


....video cameras are lightweight and digital technology has cut out the need for processing. Having captured a firefight on video, a soldier can create a movie and distribute it via e-mail, uncensored by the military. With editing software such as Avid and access to Internet connections on military bases here, U.S. soldiers are creating fast-paced, MTV-style music videos using images from actual firefights and killings....

***

The result: an abundance of photographs and video footage depicting mutilation, death and destruction that soldiers collect and trade like baseball cards....

***

(Pfc. Chase McCollough) was surprised that his favorite video was disturbing to his loved ones back in Texas....

***

Brandi McCullough, then his fiancee and now his wife...was shocked by images of "body parts missing, bombs going off and people getting shot....I didn't realize there was that much" violence....

***

McCullough said his father, a naval reserve captain, had told him, " 'You know, this isn't normal.'...


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-vide...

Destroying Fallujah To "Save" It (Eyewitness Account From Fallujah)



by Raul Mahajan
April 11, 2004

What type of individual shoots Ambulance drivers.?
& what does it say about the Military they belong to.?
Are these Merceneries doing this?
Are Iraqis doing this?
Who the fuck is Evil enough to be doing this?
Special Forces?

This is getting very sick and very twisted.

Start

I had heard these claims at third-hand before coming into Fallujah, but was skeptical. It's very difficult to find the real story here. But this I saw for myself. An ambulance with two neat, precise bullet-holes in the windshield on the driver's side, pointing down at an angle that indicated they would have hit the driver's chest (the snipers were on rooftops, and are trained to aim for the chest). Another ambulance again with a single, neat bullet-hole in the windshield. There's no way this was due to panicked spraying of fire. These were deliberate shots to kill people in driving the ambulances.

The ambulances go around with red, blue, or green lights flashing and sirens blaring; in the pitch-dark of a blacked-out city there is no way they can be missed or mistaken for something else). An ambulance that some of our compatriots were going around in, trading on their whiteness to get the snipers to let them through to pick up the wounded was also shot at while we were there.

During the course of the roughly four hours we were at that small clinic, we saw perhaps a dozen wounded brought in. Among them was a young woman, 18 years old, shot in the head. She was having a seizure and foaming at the mouth when they brought here in; doctors did not expect her to survive the night. Another likely terminal case was a young boy with massive internal bleeding. I also saw a man with extensive burns on his upper body and wounds in his thighs that might have been from a cluster bomb; there was no way to verify in the madhouse scene of wailing relatives, shouts of "Allahu Akbar" (God is great), and anger at the Americans.

Among the more laughable assertions of the Bush administration is that the mujaheddin are a small group of isolated "extremists" repudiated by the majority of Fallujah's population. Nothing could be further from the truth. Of course, the mujaheddin don't include women or very young children (we saw an 11-year-old boy with a Kalashnikov), old men, and are not necessarily even a majority of fighting-age men. But they are of the community and fully supported by it. Many of the wounded were brought in by the muj and they stood around openly conversing with doctors and others. One of the muj was wearing an Iraqi police flak jacket; on questioning others who knew im, we learned that he was in fact a member of the Iraqi police.

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&It...



US Burns Iraqis Alive with Napalm
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 02:31 AM by Ruffhowse


Sunday Mirror.co.uk

Nov 28 2004

By Paul Gilfeather Political Editor

US troops are secretly using outlawed napalm gas to wipe out remaining insurgents in and around Fallujah.
News that President George W. Bush has sanctioned the use of napalm, a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments around the world.
And last night Tony Blair was dragged into the row as furious Labour MPs demanded he face the Commons over it. Reports claim that innocent civilians have died in napalm attacks, which turn victims into human fireballs as the gel bonds flames to flesh.
Outraged critics have also demanded that Mr Blair threatens to withdraw British troops from Iraq unless the US abandons one of the world's most reviled weapons. Halifax Labour MP Alice Mahon said: "I am calling on Mr Blair to make an emergency statement to the Commons to explain why this is happening. It begs the question: 'Did we know about this hideous weapon's use in Iraq?'"
Since the American assault on Fallujah there have been reports of "melted" corpses, which appeared to have napalm injuries.
Last August the US was forced to admit using the gas in Iraq.
A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against civilians - after pictures of a naked girl victim fleeing in Vietnam shocked the world.
America, which didn't ratify the treaty, is the only country in the world still using the weapon.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14920109...

Killing is fun, and when there are no people around to shoot at
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 10:49 AM by JohnyCanuck


dogs will do in pinch.


Hi my name is M. D. formaly of A TRP 1-10 CAV 4ID and while in Iraq we had a sport of killing dogs whenever the Iraqis werent shooting us. So when I shot this one at about 50 yards with my M4 and it ran yelping to lower ground, we had to finish it so my friends and I went to it and started shooting it. I ve never seen a dog take as many shots to the head at least 4 as this one did and then after we thought it was dead we dug a hole and when I picked it up with the shovel it came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times....its pretty funny."

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shooting_in_iraq_for...

For your viewing pleasure, wmv of dog shooting here (disturbing)

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/march/ogrish-dot-co...

Testimony from Abu Ghraib prisoner who witnessed boy being raped (WaPo)
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 10:30 PM by scottxyz


This is a shocking document. Not for the faint of heart.

"I saw {name deleted} f***ing a kid, his age would be about 15-18 years. ... I saw {name deleted} who was wearing his military uniform putting his dick in the kid's ass..."

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/abugh...
(This is a two-page Adobe Acrobat PDF file at the Washington Post website. May be easier to view if you right-click, save, then open on your machine.)

Abuses in the Abu Ghraib children's wing
Edited on Wed Jul-07-04 03:09 AM by Sliverofhope


Here is a clip from German news, unfortunately in German, regarding abuses of children in Abu Ghraib.

Remember Sy Hersh's saying that there were "far worse things involving children" and that "(we) haven't begun to see evil."

And I've been reading that these videos of child abuse are on the CDs with the rest of the pictures

Any German speakers who can translate interesting tidbits would be appreciated. My German knowledge is far too basic.

http://tinyurl.com/2eynn

RealVideo file.


don't like pictures of u.s. soldiers killing women and kids? change the ch



change the channel, that's what a u.s. army general said when an iraqi reporter asked him about images on local iraqi t.v. alleged to be showing footage of u.s. soldiers firing upon women and children.

the general told the man, 'if you don't like to see images of u.s. soldiers killing women and children....change the channel'. he said it twice, with great emphasis, 'change the channel'.

[Bill McBlueState]

61. you should put this in a thread of its own

Needs to be heard.

[SpaceBuddy008]

101. BEST support is to STOP all war, TRY the architects&prosecute media shills

for selling the lies

thoughtful original post, though ivory tower-like, stage of denial, restore MY comfort zone, vent, wash your hands, rationalize and say great post, now let me get one more good nights sleep.

highest citizen duty is to refuse to tell your self lies and live with lies

duty is to fight in whatever peaceful way we best can to CRY for justice and the rule of law and end killing, pestilence and famine in this the 21st century, repeating blindly the last one

we can not use Bush as scapegoat, it is the whole miltaristic system we ALL have let the frakenstein defense budget overwhelm man, nature, reason and decency

Support the troops? YES,...Of course...Tell them what they are fighting and murdering for!

especially when it comes to life and death, honesty is the best policy

this support the troops mantra, is so knee-jerk ,so overused, cheapened what does it really mean?

it is almost like some ritualistic pledge, like you have to use a pledge to get in a BushSpeech?


money-motivated mass-murdering manipulated monopoly media 'high priests' normalize the unthinkable

if one does not do everything and anything they can they are just as culpable, complicit and just a cog, appeaser as being a member of the war gang, the bullies enablers

duty to disobey illegal orders and refuse to betray ones soul and give up ones humanity

would have been nice if poster also linked to some action of resistance, article to demonstrate the inhumanity occuring and some wake up call or quote to increase effort to pick it up a notch, CORNER the spirit killing, law breakers

words from people who have opted out of hideous killing of innocents

We weren't preventing terrorism or making Americans safer. I couldn't find a single good reason for having been there, for having shot at people and been shot at.

~To those who have called me a coward I say that they are wrong, and that without knowing it, they are also right. They are wrong when they think that I left the war for fear of being killed. I admit that fear was there, but there was also the fear of killing innocent people, the fear of putting myself in a position where to survive means to kill, there was the fear of losing my soul in the process of saving my body, the fear of losing myself to my daughter, to the people who love me, to the man I used to be, the man I wanted to be. I was afraid of waking up one morning to realize my humanity had abandoned me.

~Refusing and resisting this war was my moral duty, a moral duty that called me to take a principled action. I failed to fulfill my moral duty as a human being and instead I chose to fulfill my duty as a soldier. All because I was afraid. I was terrified, I did not want to stand up to the government and the army, I was afraid of punishment and humiliation. I went to war because at the moment I was a coward, and for that I apologize to my soldiers for not being the type of leader I should have been.

ReGaining My Humanity

Camilo Mejia
CodePink4Peace.org
February 17, 2005

http://www.notinourname.net/troops/mejia-17feb05.htm

*****
~ When you contemplate the beauty of the world around us and the gifts we have been given you have to ask yourself, " Is this what humanity is meant to do, wage war against one another?" Why can't we teach our children not to hate or to not be afraid of someone else just because they are different from us? Why must it be considered honorable to train young men and women to look through the sights of a high-powered rifle and to kill another human being from 300 meters away?

~ Can't we teach our children to leave war behind in history where it belongs? We have come to realize that slavery was an obsolete institution and we realized that human sacrifice was an obsolete institution and we left them behind us. When are going to have the same enlightened attitude about war?

~I've received e-mails from people who said that I was a coward for not going to war, but I say to them that I have already been, so I do not have anything to prove to anyone any more. What is there to prove anyway, that I can kill someone I do not even know and has never done anything to me? What is in that concept that anyone could consider honorable?

~~~A Matter of Conscience
By Sergeant Kevin Benderman, U.S. Army
Independent Media Magazine
Tuesday 18 January 2005

just Peaces, Full PIE@ http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/011905B.shtml



honesty, genuiness is not negativity, before you can remodel construct a new home-repair project, there must be some tearing down destruction of the crumbling original structure

clean up and then reconstruction can begin anew

TO BEST SUPPORT THESE CORpIRATE PROFITEERING HOSTAGES, DO WE AT LEAST NEED TO TAKE SUCH A PRINCIPLED POSITION AS THESE VETERANS OF THE CONFLAGARATION expressed above

IF YOU CAN'T SEE THIS MAYBE YOU REALLY REALLY NEED TO LET YOUR 'WALLS' DOWN AND DEEPLY READ THESE REPORTS Lib-o-Death has posted here

crying can really open the heart and eyes and get the hands to work the hearts to god and the feet to the street

SURE OUR HEARTS ARE BROKEN BUT AT LEAST NOW THEY ARE OPEN

~~~The disappearance of a sense of responsibility is the most far-reaching consequence of submission to authority.--Stanley Milgram

~~~Everything proceeds as if of its own accord, and this can all too easily tempt us to relax and let things take their course without troubling over details. Such indifference is the root of all evil.--I Ching

A Fist, or an Open Hand, as Each of Us Chooses...So Becomes the World--DjK

(some perspective of what $1 Billion ! Dollars equals: if you were given $1 dollar for each SECOND ! from when you were born, you would acquire a BILLION dollars some time in the middle of your 32nd YEAR!)



EmotionThink

for the poster who is concerned about so-called 'negativity' on a for cryin' -in-a-bucket, internet forum, imagine how silly the weight you give to this affront, sounds to the folks on the front line, recovering from trauma OR THE RELATIVES OF THE CARMELIZED

my intent here is to energize and Spring inTO Action

DirtyWar...SpringCleaning...NextDuty..re; CitizenMedia, push,publicize dissension at all levels of military...corner the WayWard Ones...we're Getting Warm..enough ! coddling...time to discard...put into witer storage...The National 'Security Blanket'

CultureJamCleveand at yr. service
ResiSTING The PrivatiZing of Truth

[LibertyorDeath]

104. Welcome to DU SpaceBuddy008

Good post !

[rockymountaindem]

35. Yep

[moggie12]

36. Excellent post. Nominated.

We shouldn't let happen to these soldiers what happened to our Vietnam-era vets.

[Daphne08]

66. I do agree about this.

When our soldiers came home from Vietnam, many were shunned or even cursed and I don't think some have ever gotten over that.

It really wasn't their fault since so many of them were drafted.

[LdyGuique]

37. Absolutely, I'll stand next to you on this issue, David

[OneBlueSky]

38. my support for our troops consists of three words . . .

"Bring Them Home!" . . .

[LibertyorDeath]

39. There's no half measures here if you support them it's 100%

Frederik (371 posts) Fri Apr-01-05 05:32 PM
Original message
Why we'll never see the second round of Abu Ghraib photos



"NBC News reported that they show "American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys." Everyone who saw the photographs and videos seemed to shudder openly when contemplating what the reaction would be when they eventually were made public.

But they never were."

http://www.reason.com/0504/co.mw.the.shtml

[BlondieK143]

43. Completely agree.

My boyfriend was deployed last Thursday and it's been quite an experience so far. I couldn't do the job set forth for these men and women. I don't agree with the reason why they are there, but I certainly don't blame that on them. May they all come home safe and soon.

[Window]

44. Here, here.

.

[UrbScotty]

45. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We Democrats stand up for the people who defend us day in and day out, not just in word, but also in action.

[Itsthetruth]

47. Troops In Iraq Defending Us From What?

However, you do understand that the soldiers were not sent to Iraq to defend us or this nation .... right?

[UrbScotty]

49. What does that have to do with Democrats supporting our troops?

[manic expression]

68. Because

supporting the troops in Iraq is indirectly supporting the war and the actions carried out in the war, IMO.

[UrbScotty]

86. Supporting troops = supporting war? I think not

Supporting the troops by wanting them to come home is NOT supporting the war. In order to support a war, you have to want soldiers in the battle, right?

Frankly, I don't see how you CAN support both the troops and the war at the same time. Either you support the troops, support the war, or don't support either.

If you think supporting troops means supporting the war, then the Bush/Rove propaganda machine has won.

[Itsthetruth]

79. What Does "Democrats Supporting The Troops" Mean?

The only Democratic politicians supporting our troops are those advocating their withdrawl from Iraq. Those who defend keeping the GI's in Iraq are functioning as "Bush enablers".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. The troops are the enforcers of a predatory regime.

I don't support them.

[BlondieK143]

50. Then don't post in a thread supporting them.

No need to spread negativity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. Excuuuse me for not glorifying war and those that make it.

I find killing people pretty "negative".

[BlondieK143]

55. No one is glorifying war.

You came into a thread where you knew positive things were going to be said about the men and women involved in this mess. You're only intention of posting was to start negative comments and ruin a thread. If you feel so negatively about it, post your own thread why you think it's wrong. Don't come into another one and expect people to open their arms when you're stepping on the toes of people who have friends or family over there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. I DID have family over there.

My son-in-law to be exact. I also had several friends killed in Vietnam while being enforcers in another bloodbath.

[BlondieK143]

73. Then you know your son-in-law

and friends have nothing to do with the orders given to them. I'm still failing to see how it's their fault??

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. The German defense?

"Just following orders."? Like the soldiers under the command of Lt. Calley?

I was a "troop" myself and not following orders is a damned courageous thing for a soldier to do. I doubt, that as a 21 year old marine in 1965, if I would have been ordered to Vietnam, rather than asked to extend my enlistment to go, I would have refused.

My point is, that "Support Our Troops", is facile propaganda to support the war in Iraq, and whatever other wars our "leaders" think necessary to protect our "vital interests" (corporate earnings).

Soldiers do what they're told. That's the very first thing every recruit learns. They are trained to kill on command. And, they do. Glorifying them as "our brave soldiers", "defenders of democracy", "serving their country", etc, merely distracts people from acknowleging what soldiers of any stripe do. They kill people. That's their bottom line job and reason for being.

My son-in-law did what he was told. Fortunately, he didn't (directly) kill anyone. But, he would have. Just as I probably would have had I not turned down that request to "defend my country".

[LibertyorDeath]

90. Thank You

"Soldiers do what they're told. That's the very first thing every recruit learns. They are trained to kill on command. And, they do. Glorifying them as "our brave soldiers", "defenders of democracy", "serving their country", etc, merely distracts people from acknowleging what soldiers of any stripe do. They kill people. That's their bottom line job and reason for being."

:toast:

[BlondieK143]

91. So screw them for doing a job

that puts food in the mouths of their children and wives/husbands? Screw them for trying to get a better education (some go in thinking that way)? Screw them for having to look a man in the face and kill him point blank? Don't give a shit about them when they come back seriously messed up, and look at them with disapproving faces? I'm sorry, but I'm a little more human than that.

[LibertyorDeath]

95. If they are purposely killing and torturing Iraqi men wome & children

which they are.

Then what the fuck are you talking about.

"I'm a little more human than that"

[BlondieK143]

97. Not all of them are doing that!!!

How the hell can you say "they are purposely killing and torturing Iraqi men women and children"?? Does that mean every single person in the military does that? No, I don't think so! The fact that you can even say that proves you don't know what you're talking about. Here's an idea, YOU go overseas. Does that automatically mean you're going to kill or torture every person you see? I didn't freaking think so.

[LibertyorDeath]

110. How the hell can you say "they are purposely killing and torturing Iraqi

men women and children"? Good question I'm not saying it.

They are !

“We kill innocent Iraqi civilians all the time. That’s the way it is. I believe they need to withdraw all foreign military troops in Iraq right away. And I say this about other soldiers: to avoid punishment or reprisals by the military, they don’t want to talk and admit that killing terrorists is not our mission. It’s to kill innocent civilians.”

That’s the way the Il Manifesto interview with Jimmy Massey went. He’s from the little town of Waynesville, North Carolina. He has decided to draw back the veil of silence from the “noble mission” in Iraq. Discharged from the Marine Corps for medical reasons, he has written a diary, “Cowboys from Hell,” which will be published at the end of the summer.

“What was your rank in Iraq?”

“I was a sergeant with the Third Marine Battalion during the invasion, in the spring of 2003.”

http://www.sfbayview.com/030905/amarine030905.shtml

"Does that mean every single person in the military does that?"

No but way to many are. Have you read about what they did to the Civillians in Fallujah.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/NIM411A.html

he convention also regulates the treatment of civilians in occupied territories and forbids “grave breaches,” including the “willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment” of civilians,” but this is precisely what happened in Falluja last April. “All of the Middle East and indeed the whole world is now extremely suspicious that US Marine forces slaughtered civilians in Fallujah indiscriminately,” Joseph Arrieta wrote at the time

( http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/05/20_falluja.html ).

“Not only that, it appears Marine snipers did a lot of killing. This is not some errant bomb or missile that created ‘collateral damage,’ it’s the alleged deliberate, careful sighting of civilian targets with spotters targeting men, women, children and ambulances,” all war crimes. “According to the relatively few media reports of what took place there, some 600 Iraqis were killed during these two weeks, among them some 450 elderly people, women and children,”

Orit Shohat reported for Haaretz on April 28th ( http://www.uruknet.info/?colonna=m&p=2261 ).

The sight of decapitated children, the rows of dead women and the shocking pictures of the soccer stadium that was turned into a temporary grave for hundreds of the slain—all were broadcast to the world only by the Al Jazeera network. During the operation in Falluja, according to the organization Doctors Without Borders, U.S. Marines even occupied the hospitals and prevented hundreds of the wounded from receiving medical treatment. Snipers fired from the rooftops at anyone who tried to approach.

[JimmyJazz]

98. It means she has compassion for people who signed up

to defend their country and had absolutely no say in whether or not the leaders of this country would decide to wage an illegal war.

Why don't you go look for your manners? You seem to have lost them. Asking someone "what the fuck are you talking about" is talking down to them and not called for in this situation, IMHO.

[LibertyorDeath]

111. "It means she has compassion for people who signed up"

Yes I realize that.

You may not believe this but so do I.

My problem is with those who knowingly kill Civilians.

Follow orders to bomb Hospitals.

Torture or abuse defenseless men women & children detainees

Shoot Ambulance drivers.

These are all War Crimes & there is way to much of it happening in Iraq.

I know there are atrocities committed in all Wars this does not make them any less criminal.

I just want this shit to stop.

Enough already how many people American & Iraqi have to die or suffer before this madness ends.

As far as my manners go sometimes I really want to know " what the fuck someone is talking about." & that's my business.

[Djinn]

134. so how much are you supporting the Iraqi people

they are also human but unlike US soldiers they have no choice but to be in Iraq, screw em for being Iraqi, screw em for having relatives that join the resistance, screw em for needing electricity/medical attention.

[Djinn]

133. if they follow illegal orders

it has EVERYTHING to do with them.

[Bill McBlueState]

62. This is an agreement board!

Don't post in a thread unless you agree with everything the OP says!

What, did you think this was a *discussion* board? :sarcasm:

[BlondieK143]

63. You knew that wasn't the point.

Your maturity is astounding.

[Trajan]

52. 'Soldiers' are not naturally 'enforcers of a predatory regime' ....

But only IF the regime is predatory ....

Your statement itself separates soldiers from the power structure that leads them .... Every nation needs a defensive military force, with at least limited offensive capability to provide a credible reaction force against another nation that might become militant ....

EVERY nation needs soldiers ... especially NON predatory nations .... The need to have soldiers is a prima facie requisite for a country that expects to last more than a few decades, and to protect it's people from rapine and destruction ... The fact is : without soldiers, nations cannot defend themselves ....

The problem isnt the soldiers: the problem is the policies, and the skanks who made current policy ....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. What the world needs is a helluva lot fewer soldiers.

Or, to repeat an unused phrase, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

Soldiers kill people, that's their job.

[Trajan]

58. You are resorting to caricatures ....

Some soldiers kill, most do not: ALL are trained to kill, yet many do not ....

That isnt the point: We dont live in a world that has EVER allowed us to not defend ourselves .... Defense is never wrong in a harsh, cruel, animalistic world .... It is an absolute necessity to establish an army if a nation wishes to be more than a comma in a page of history ....

Wars happens because men are brutes ... they have always been, and will always be ... It is naive to presume one could forever be secure in the midst of brutish humanity with kind words and a trite twist of phrase ....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. Social Darwinism?

"Wars happens because men are brutes ... they have always been, and will always be ... It is naive to presume one could forever be secure in the midst of brutish humanity with kind words and a trite twist of phrase .

Are you saying, then, that it's a genetic thing? Humanity is naturally murderous and that only the strong will survive? We must kill to live?

If what you say is true, then why bother with trying for peace and humanity, let's just conquer the world in the name of "security" and murder all the naive naysayers who are foolish enough to think that humanity is capable of better than that.

Here's another "trite twist of phrase":

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[Trajan]

77. Sorry, but this is fallacious ...

>Are you saying, then, that it's a genetic thing? Humanity is naturally murderous and that only the strong will survive? We must kill to live?<

Yes, Yes, Yes ... and no ....

Yes - humanity is formed of genes, and therefore all human action can be said to derive from it's 'genetic thing' ....

Yes - Humanity is naturally 'murderous' ? ... Murder is a criminal act which is defined by culture, not nature ... Man is a killer, and has been for millions of years .... we are ANIMALS ..... animals kill ...

Yes - In nature, the strong dominate and the weak, those unable or unwilling to defend itself in nature's course, will be snuffed out by the strong ..... One neednt be 'strong' in force, but can be intellectually strong instead, and survive by guile and cunning ....

No - Men NEEDN'T kill to live, unless they MUST kill to survive an attack from another human, THEN killing, in self defense, is certainly advisable, if no other effective defense can be executed ....

It is important to note: I never said men NEED to kill to live ..... They need to do what they must to defend themselves agains numerous sociopathic/psychopathic human beings who WILL kill if given half a chance ..... if that includes killing someone who is going to harm you or your family, then by all means, yes .....

Does this mean that men CAN and SHOULD simply go killing anyone who is not a direct and credible threat against their persons or families ? .. of course not: You added that implication .....

I am pacificistic by nature .. I am civilised, I forego violence in the cause of the humanistic impulse ... but Im not stupid ....

A lot of good it would be for me to rush headlong into the craw of unbridled, brute, animalistic humanity, armed with only words ... If I lose my life or allow my family to be harmed in the process ....

Men, on the whole, for at LEAST hundreds of thousands of years, have acted with unbelieveable cruelty towards each other .... it is by establishing a DEFENSIVE posture that such cruelties can be stopped ....

At NO time have I sought or implied that 'killing' is good .... Killing is awful ...... but it is unfortunately necessary at times .... Anyone who doesnt respect this fact is bound to be swallowed up in it's reality ....

I advocate Humanism and Pacifism, and will NEVER defend the current militancy by the Bush administration in Iraq or elsewhere .... But the misuse of the military by a rash and unjust, and even criminal leader ... does NOT absolve or reduce the need for a people, civilised by culture, and with a clear eye on history, to maintain an ample and effective defense against external threats .... REAL threats .. not concocted threast like those of the current WH ....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. Then it seems that we (mostly) agree.

"They need to do what they must to defend themselves agains numerous sociopathic/psychopathic human beings who WILL kill if given half a chance"

Which is exactly what soldiers do.

The "Support Our Troops" rubbish is the same propaganda that gives the green light to the psychopaths/sociopaths that send the troops to do the killing and then justify it in the name of "defense". Hitler was "defending" the German people from "World Jewry" and "Bolshevism" and called on the Germans to "Support" the glorious German Army.

Inevitably, it is the innocent civilians who suffer most in any war, fought for any reason. Either directly, or indirectly.

As a long time student of history, as an ex-marine, as a pacifist, I have yet to discover a war that has served humanity. War as a survival mechanism is a dismal failure. Nor have I ever heard of a war that wasn't advertised by both sides as "defensive". The "REAL" threat to humanity and civilization is war. We have killed thousands and spent billions to "defend" ourselves against "terrorists". Yet the threat is greater than ever.

[manic expression]

89. On a huge tangent...

I wonder if wars have served humanity. Did the Mexican revolution, Maratha resistance to the Mughals, resistance against the Nazis, slave rebellions of Rome, the Rwandan Patriotic Front's drive and subsequent ending of the genocide in Rwanda (Paul Kagame is an amazing person, by the way), the people (AU and Darfur rebels) in Darfur fighting the Janjaweeds and so on and so on not serve humanity?

I believe there are times where violence is justified and other times where justified violence is necessary. It is the idea behind the fight and the way it is carried out; that is what is important, and that is what matters.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I think it is a very interesting and important discussion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

100. Briefly. Violence and power are the problems.

History is a continuum. Villa, Carranza, even Zapata were every bit as bloodyhanded as Diaz, Huerta and Obregon. And, the revolutionaries proved just as corrupt as the oligarchy. Resistance against the Nazis included the barbarity of Hamburg and Dresden, the refusal to bomb the trainlines to Aushwitz, Sobibor, and Treblinka. And, the fire bombing of Tokyo, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The slave revolts against Rome cost hundreds of thousands of slave lives to no purpose. The Hutus could, and do, make a case that the slaughter of the Tutsis was "defensive". The revolution in Russia ended up killing millions of the people it was supposed to free.

That said, I have to reluctantly agree, that in some cases violence is justifiable as a last resort. But, as I see it now, in my waning years, non-violence is a much more effective and lasting tool to bring about humanitarian change. It's the old "Do the ends justify the means?" argument. My belief is that violent means are the problem we must find a solution to. The "reconciliation" movements in S.A. and Rwanda are an ideal that I can hope will prevail.

Violence as a "solution" should be looked upon as a tragedy, a failure, a crime.

And, it has to start somewhere. With me and you and everyone else who thinks that humanity has a better nature than killing other people to attain power for whatever "good" cause. The killers always claim to be in the right and to have the best interests of the people on their side.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[manic expression]

102. Hmm...

I definitely see your point(s). Violence should be seen as somewhat of a failure. Armies should be sent to war only after all other paths of action have been exhausted, and even then they should not be sent off with any trumpeting of horns.

To me, it matters not if the Hutus claim self-defense in their slaughters of the Tutsis. The claiming of a wrong does not change anything at all (that is one reason why I completely disagree with Orwell's writings). The RPF was justified in taking up arms, and succeeded in halting the insanity that was occurring (this insanity included the false belief that they were justified in carrying out the killings).

The resistance to the Nazis I was referring to was not exactly the allies, but specifically the clandestine organizations. Perhaps a fine example of all of this is Jean Moulin: leader of a French resistance group, he was captured and tortured. After weeks of torment, he used his skills in drawing to create a caricature of his Gestapo captor (he died soon after). Throughout the violence and pain he was a part of and endured, what truly remained constant was the eternal truth: that of what is right, embodied by that defiant drawing and the end result long after the scars of conflict healed. Even in the deepest depths of agony and despair, the potential of existence was realized. Through violent resistance or through peaceful defiance, justice will always be met.

By the way, the French resistance was well known to kill their enemies in vicious ways. Were they justified in this? I'm not exactly sure myself, but they were justified in taking up arms against the Germans.

I know quite well the traps which can ensnare one who means well: a justified fight is rare, and he who looks for such an enterprise will likely fall victim to himself and his actions. Whatever one does, they must make sure it is the right thing to do from every perspective and from an independent mindset. Once a person forgets that they can do the right thing, they will miss the potential of themself and everything around them.

One more thing: a very important aspect of this is that after all of the destruction, the inevitable creation and healing begins and is nurtured. This is seen in Rwanda and elsewhere, and it is of the utmost importance that there is understanding and love at the end of every conflict.

If you have other examples you want to introduce and discuss I hope you do so.

Sorry if this seems kinda disoriented. And if you meant that you were busy when you said "Briefly", I understand.

[Trajan]

103. Very well said ...

Men are vicious animals more than they are civilised citizens ....

To protect oneself from the brutes, one must at times take up arms against them ...

The real issue is JUSTIFICATION .... those groups you had mentioned were justifed by the situation to defend themselves against intolerable brutality ....

There is no honor in pretending human beings are always nice ... nor is there a future there ....

[Trajan]

48. Soldiers doing their duty to country ....

While the Vulcans fill their back pockets with filthy lucre ....

They are being MISLEAD by falsehood and avarice ....

They are being USED by corporate entities who have promoted their own to the most powerful office in this world ....

Soldiers don't formulate policy ... they follow orders ....

Blame the White House, and the Pentagon, and the State Department, and AEI ... NOT the soldiers ...

[latebloomer]

51. Would you support the Gestapo wholeheartedly

as a German during WW II??

I feel individually for some of the soldiers and their personal plights.

But they are carrying out war crimes, under orders from a sinister and criminal administration.

No way can I support them wholeheartedly!

[Spider Jerusalem]

57. Well...

the average German soldier wasn't a member of the Nazi Party, and the Wehrmacht WASN'T the Gestapo or SS...I remember my grandfather telling me about Wehrmacht troops surrendering to his unit in Germany in '45; he said most of 'em were frightened kids, not that different from the Americans.

I think the point is that one DOESN'T support the ACTIONS that duty calls soldiers to perform, but that one recognises that blame for them being there in the first place lies elsewhere. And personally, I make a distinction between the actions of, say, the guards at Abu Ghraib (who are certainly "war criminals", in my opinion) and those of some scared 19-year-old infantryman who joined up for the college money and finds himself shipped off to a strange and hostile land where anyone is a potential enemy. The latter is a victim, too, of a sort, and the real criminals are the politicians and generals.

[manic expression]

65. However

the average German soldier was supporting the actions of the Gestapo and the SS, as well as allowing those actions to be carried out. I feel a great deal of sympathy for the German soldiers, as they were victims, but that does not mean I support them while they are part of something so wrong. I feel for the human being of the soldier, but I simultaneously oppose them and I do not support that person in those particular actions.

In the same way, I will not support any part of the US military while such dastardly actions are being carried out. Any part of that group is in effect helping those horrible things happen, and I will not support any part of it at all.

It must be understood that I greatly feel for them, and I will give veterans as much sympathy and help as possible, but while they are part of such wrongs, they will receive no support from me.

No one is ever "forced" into anything, they have the power of choice, and they have the undeniable responsibility to do what is right.

[ScreamingMeemie]

74. Easy for us to say...when we are not carrying a gun. When we are not

facing a life in Leavenworth for abandoning orders...always easy to say. They need us at this time to come to the plate and fight for them. Not against them.

[manic expression]

78. Easy to say

Hard to do. Nevertheless, it is something that should be done. People need to stand up for what is right, even if the consequences be harsh. They need to come to the plate, and we must do the same.

By the way, I'm not just saying this without any experience, for instance, I have refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance, and have faced opposition from my peers and from faculty for this.

[ScreamingMeemie]

72. I hope to hell and back that you are not one of those people that will

scream over unfair recruiting tactics and then turn your back on those whom you used to cry over.

[manic expression]

80. Quite a summary....

But you are mistaken. No one is turning our backs on the troops when we oppose what they are doing in the world. When people refuse to support the actions of the soldiers of the US military, it does not mean we lose any regard for the actual people. Actually, I believe it honors the human potential of the soldiers to oppose their contribution to such a disgusting war. I cannot support the troops, but I sympathize with them as people.

By the way, I wasn't speaking for the person you were responding to.

[Stephanie]

56. Thank you David

[AnotherMother4Peace]

67. Our nation's sons & daughters, wives & husbands,

mothers & fathers, sisters & brothers are being used & misused by this administration. They were deployed because of WMD's, now it's for the spread of democracy. How dare this administration use our troops so carelessly, and not as a last resort. Now this administration wants to keep the attention away from this quagmire. It is no longer working for them politically. Days go by without mention of it on the news. And as the cost of this WAR (nothing more, nothing less) soars, this administration is further distancing itself from its obligation to returning troops in need of medical care.

Support our troops by writing, donating, e-mailing, phoning media & politicians. Remind them that a war is still going on. Remind them that our troops are coming home with tremendous needs. Remind them that we are destroying a country. And ask them to refresh your memory about why we are fighting this war.

[just a girl]

70. Thank you.

My DF and I both loathe this war, yet he's there now fighting.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

93. Welcome, from one "newbie" to another

What does "DF" stand for. Your soldier will be in my thoughts and prayers. This must be a trying time for you. I will continue to advocate for our troops.

[kevsand]

75. Blaming the line troops

for the mess in Iraq would be like blaming the victims of 9-11 for the foreign policies that contributed to the creation of the terrorists. I'm as pacifist as anybody, and of course we had no business going to Iraq, but our troops have been betrayed by the neocons over and over and over. It's time to stop blaming the victims. Hell yes we should support our troops, and do everything we can to bring them home as safely and as quickly as possible. And clap in irons the civilian sobs who put them there in the first place.

[RBHam]

76. Army: 27 Captives Die in U.S. Custody

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=615127&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Unabashed???

And just when will these soldiers who are supposed to be DEFENDING YOUR FREAKING FREEDOM - actually go after THOSE WHO ARE ATTEMPTING TO TAKE IT AWAY!!!!

American armed forces are assuming major new domestic policing and surveillance
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/creep.htm
Is Military Creeping into Domestic Law Enforcement
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/creeping.htm
Cigar Aficionado's Interview with General Tommy Franks
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/franks.htm
From Tommy Franks, a doomsday scenario
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/franks_doomsday.htm
Tommy Franks: Martial Law Will Replace Constitution After Next Terror Attack
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/franks_martial.htm
Military Industrial Complex Coup in '04
The US military: A creeping civilian mission
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/military_coup.htm

[LibertyorDeath]

94. When it comes to the role of the military way to many people

choose to wear Rose colored glasses.

[Just Me]

83. I regret that the neoCONs have betrayed their loyalty/courage/trust.

I'll continue to fight to bring them home.

Meanwhile, I salute them!!!

[OrlandoGator]

84. I support the troops by opposing the neocons who are sending them to die.

You can't support the troops and Bush at the same time. Logically impossible.

[Leilani]

87. Thanks for this thread...

I support the troops wholeheartedly.

Those who oppose the troops have countless threads to bitch & moan & curse them. I wish they could restrain themselves just once.

[BlondieK143]

92. Yeah, same here.

Guess we couldn't possibly ask them to refrain just this once. :eyes:

[johnaries]

88. AMEN! Which means I support giving them the Haz duty pay

they deserve. I support giving them the Vet benefits they deserve. I support giving them the ARMOR they deserve. I support giving them wage increases (when I heard that many Military families are on Food Stamps, I almost went ballistic myself!).

And, most importantly, I support NOT SENDING THEM TO DIE IN ILLEGAL WARS!!!!!!!

[Feron]

96. Great post!

I totally agree. :)

[proud patriot]

105. WooHoo

Listen to Soldiers , be there for them when
they come home .

[TacticalPeek]

106. Ab-so-lutely. Especially my son and his unit, just back from al Anbar.

And especially the handful who are still gunning for Osama Bin Forgotten and al Queda, our true enemies despite President Stupid's strategic blunder in Arabia.


http://anysoldier.com/WhereToSend


:kick:

[BrklynLiberal]

108. Love our troops. Bring them home now..safe and sound.

[KnowerOfLogic]

109. I used to "support the troops" more than i do now, for just the reasons

you mentioned, but as time goes on i see that a whole lot of the troops *do* support the war, and while they didn't make the decision to go there, they agreed with it. And now that they are there, the inevitable atrocities and shameful acts occur, which would *not* have occurred had we not been over there, and going over there was a decision which apparently most of them supported.

I definitely support the ones who are there against their will, more so than the ones who are in agreement with the war, but I ask myself, what would i do if i was a member of the military and was sent to iraq (against my will) and ordered to do something that i knew would likely result in the death of innocent civilians? Would i go along and follow the orders? Actually, i hope i wouldn't, because if i did, the guilt would be on *my* conscience, and Uncle Sam could neither bear it for me nor expunge it from my record.

[Clarkie1]

114. KICK. Thanks so much for posting this. How often we forget, n/t

[Swamp Rat]

116. Bring our troops home NOW!!!

[ngGale]

117. The military has no freedom or rights, they are...

owned by our government. They are seen as disposable. It's we who have to fight for their rights, care, needs and grieve also for their families. I've lost family to war, there will never be a just war. As long as we use war as our only option, there will never be peace.

Great post!

[nonconformist]

118. Agree 100%

As the wife of a vet, I can assure you that the vast majority of troops in Iraq do not want to be there. They joined the military because they needed work and their options were limited for one reason or another.

[KG]

119. unabashed jingoism

how nice.

[moondust]

121. What if they had an illegal, private war

and nobody came?

[kerrygoddess]

122. Kick It! Awesome Post!

You Rock!

:woohoo:

[Balbus]

123. Kicking..

:kick: For a great post!

[Hosnon]

124. Great post...they have a job and don't pick that job...good people. eom

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

126. At this point, if they kill someone, they are murders.

My grandfather, a war hero in WWII, because he killed man, was a murderer.

Just my perspective.

Yes, fighting for my freedom means you're a murderer. And, no, I didn't ask you to do it. And, no, I wouldn't kill another man to defend my country. And, yes, I would kill a man if it came to protecting my family. But I'd aim for the kneecaps first. But if I did kill said man, then, yes, I'd be a murderer.

"When Moses was face-to-face with God, blessed be He, God said to Moses, 'You, Moses, were and shall be the most blessed of my prophets. No one led my people the way you did. No one ever shall. But, you know, you really shouldn't have killed that Egyptian."

[samhill226]

127. You sound so sure of yourself.

I suppose that you think the men of Iraq who are fighting our brothers are murderers too?

Funny thing about combat. You're scared; there may be blood and explosions. A friend might be laying on the ground next to you dieing, and all you want to do is to make it through the next five minutes.

A man pops up from behind a shattered wall and aims an AK-47 at you. Do you still refrain from trying to kill him first?

This is a thread for supporting the soldiers that are in harms way, for better or for worse, in our name.

If you wish to post a dissenting opinion you should start or find another thread that bashes those men. I'm sure you can find one around here fairly easily.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

129. Some answers to your very good questions:

"I suppose that you think the men of Iraq who are fighting our brothers are murderers too?"
***Yes.

"A man pops up from behind a shattered wall and aims an AK-47 at you. Do you still refrain from trying to kill him first?"
***Well, no, I'd be rotting in prison from refusing to fight in combat. But suppose I was out there: "A man pops up from behind a shattered wall and aims an AK-47 at you. Do you still refrain from trying to kill him first?"
No, I die. My religion tells me so. Actually, it tells me not to fight in the first place. Why would I want to kill one of God's creations, a creation I'm told to protect? Why would a douche-bag president or government tell me to do so?
WWII: I feel this was a necessary war. 6 million Jews did not need to be executed. I would have fought to save my Jewish brothers. All the same, I would have been a murderer. I would have killed tools of the state of some other douche-bag government. For my "heroic" deeds, I'd have to repent.

"This is a thread for supporting the soldiers that are in harms way, for better or for worse, in our name."
***Go ahead. You can praise them for murdering civilians in your name. I will pray every day for their souls. That's my support. I love each and every member of our armed services. I see their sins as my own.

"If you wish to post a dissenting opinion you should start or find another thread that bashes those men. I'm sure you can find one around here fairly easily."
***But it would be too easy. That's the American way, I suppose. We choose easy over our own suffering. Our soldiers are the only ones doing the sacrificing: they potentially sacrifice their own souls while we complain about gas prices. Or we post "in protest" on a progressive/liberal board to show we'll suffer the slings and arrows.

I think you and I simply define support in different ways.

Peace, bro.

[samhill226]

136. I see...

Well, I applaud your conviction. If more folks took their faith as seriously we'd not have as much bloodshed in this world.

I don't know what you believe, but I know that if I ask God for forgiveness he will grant it though I deserve it not.

Take it easy man,

[samhill226]

128. Yes!

Thank you so much for starting this thread. Those boys are doing a job no one should have to do, and deserve more than the scorn that seems to pervade much of this place.

[Djinn]

130. you support ALL of them unabashedly?

that's as unthinking as condemning them all surely - do you feel you owe Charles Graner and Lyndie Englund any respect - I sure don't

[David Zephyr]

139. Shame on you. You better than to suggest such nonsense.

Read my original post. I have read all of yours in my thread and have learned a great deal about you by doing so, but you should know better than to twist another person's words to buttress your own feeble point.

Please find one word, just one, where I posted that that my post was about "ALL" of our soldiers (the capitalization was yours, not mine). Actually, you did me a favor, Djinn: your mentioning of Charles Graner here made my point for me, didn't it?

From the original post: "They did suffer collectively as a few rotten soldiers abused their power over civilians knowing that they probably would be falsely accused someday of such behavior themselves by some jackass back home."

By the way, there's no one here at the DU who has been harder on our current military policy than me. Those who have been here at the DU for years know me and know this.

How ironic that our troops --- who have no choice over the policy there in Iraq --- have, albeit indirectly, provided you with the very smugness that you so seem to need.

[Bonhomme Richard]

140. To a great bunch doing the toughest job in the world. n/t