Quick message for anyone here who would defend the pope or the church

[WilliamPitt]

My advice: Don't bother. You aren't going to convince anyone, all that will happen is you seeing red, and things will just get silly.

Don't bother. It's Friday, and you believe what you believe. No one can take that from you, especially not a bunch of anonymous flame-wariors on a message board.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. If there is anything I do not do...

It's attack people for their religion. When that starts happening, I move away.

I will, however, defend my right to not have their beliefs crammed down my throat.

[patrice]

8. I second that motion.

Arguing religion is like arguing the color blue.

Comparison is fun, but saying one is any better than another misses what religion is.

[Bluebear]

2. Nonsense

Many bridges have been made built today.

[WilliamPitt]

3. Links?

I'm not seeing them.

[Bluebear]

7. Well here is one nice message from a non Catholic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3400369&mesg_id=3400369

[Kathy in Cambridge]

25. I agree, Bluebear. People see what they want to see. I'm Catholic

and I've seen some very nice expressions of condolence from non-Catholics:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x2366

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x2394

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x2275

Again, these so called 'religious' wars are there if you look really, really hard. Mostly these wars of persecution are in the minds of a select few, and not the majority of Christians on this board.

[Just Me]

28. True. "these wars of persecution are in the minds of a select few",...

,...that statement is soooooo true!!!!

[bpilgrim]

4. nuance

the evil doers LOVE IT when we eat each other

we would do well to acknowledge the good and the bad and the truth... we are all only human but if the HATE continues to boil with the neoCONs providing the all the kindl'n and fire, cheering us on from above, we will ALL lose.

:hi:

peace

[VelmaD]

5. I think the same applies to those who don't like the Pope...

it's pointless to talk about because you can't change the other side's opinion either. I honestly wish the whole subject would just disappear. I don't want to fight with people about this but it's becoming more difficult with each thread.

[Bluebear]

14. It's all in timing

I have a few crucial complaints about this Pope which are just inappropriate at this time because many DUers are truly grieving and being sensitive to that is more important than my personal axes. :)

[Spazito]

52. My feelings exactly...

today is not the day, there will be plenty of time to debate church policy in the next few days, imo, in a more appropriate time.


Edited to add: I have just read VelmaD's thread and believe there are ways to discuss policy respectful of the current situation as proven by that very thread.

[Ken Burch]

6. If you've read my posts, Pitt, you will have noticed

that I HAVE defended at least some things about the Pope and the Church.

I appreciate that, if you are Catholic, this is a sad day for you.
But I think, with all due respect, you may be overreacting a bit.

And you have to expect at least some dissenting views, given that, as a liberal forum, DU probably has a disproportionate share of
"Recovering Catholics."

[WilliamPitt]

11. I'm not overreacting

Spent 20 minutes looking over the 50 threads on this, many of which have a lot of salvos firing back and forth, thought about diving in, decided it wasn't worth the time. Arguing religion is like trying to hold sand.

[GalleryGod]

20. Thanks,Will ! I wish I could make it to Rome tonight.

JP II blessed me whilst leaving Cardinal Krol's residence in 1979.
O8) What a face, what a smile, what a manO8)

[Theres-a]

9. Absolutely.

hidethreadhidethreadhidethreadhidethreadhidethreadhidethread Kick hidethreadhidethreadhidethreadhidethread Kick hidethreadhidethreadhidethreadhidethreadhidethread Kick

[Cuban_Liberal]

10. I have to try, Will.

I may give up, at some point, but I must try.

[sandnsea]

19. Maybe, maybe not

Prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury,pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Amen

[northamericancitizen]

38. Beautiful words. Ty sandansea. n/t

[me b zola]

47. That prayer always makes me cry

To me, the prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi is the embodiment of what our faith is supposed to be, it is up to each individual to ask ourselves if we saw this manifest in Pope John Paul ll.

[Just Me]

51. Yes. Please, let us sow all that.

We can never become so cynical and angry as to excuse our freedom and power to sow,...all that.

Right? :bounce:

[Just Me]

12. I'll take a stand for the Pope and his life.

At least, he did try to embrace others rather than bomb and destroy them (in spite of his rigid moral positions). Moreover, he was an advocate for economic justice AND he chided both Blair and Bush for their aggressive war against Iraq (to be honest with ya', I think the Pope whispered in Dub's ear that Dub was being possessed by the devil *LOL*).

I don't really give a damn whether others have the wherewithall to appreciate the constructive and positive influences other human beings have applied to this world.

Whoops. I just ignored your advice. Oh, well.

[saracat]

13. I have been guilty of defending the Pope, and you are right! Hey, Will do

you believe that he actually appointed 17 Bishops today and accepted 7 resignations? I think He may have indicated who he wanted earlier and someone used the seal. I think the Vatican is overstating as they usually do. He may even be dead and they are holding back the announcement. What do you think?

[WilliamPitt]

15. A lot of those appointments

probably have been happening for months. I know they have been stacking the ranks of cardinals to ensure another conservative pope gets elevated.

Dunno. The ways of the Vatican are strange.

[saracat]

17. Yep. The Pope may be dying but the Vatican politics continue.

And no where more obvious than in the Vatican Press Room.

[GalleryGod]

21. Very True. The World is in for a real Education...

in the next 6 weeks!:popcorn:

[Donailin]

50. They're not strange

they're political.

[Longgrain]

16. It's hard when it's all anyone's talking about, and you have some real

Feelings to share...I'm definitely not defending all of the Catholic Church, and as for the Pope, I'm only talking about letting a man die in peace.

I'd much rather both side see the other's point of view, and stop all this bickering...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3404534#3404583

[EFerrari]

18. Today, we're not defending, but reflecting.

In the end, this life won't be limited to the context of Catholicism.

You know, Will, today I mourn the loss of a man who reached across cultures, ideologies and land mass. Who, despite the fact that his job hemmed him in at every point, tried to find a way to heal deep divisions among people of disparate faiths and beliefs.

Thank you for your "quick message". I've no stake in convincing anyone of anything.

This was a good man with whom I disagreed mightily. And he was astonishing, his whole life was astonishing. Catholicism aside, he worked when he didn't have to for the vulnerable.

I will bother. I will be grateful that, although in my view wrong on some things, this man gave his life over to public service.

peace,
Beth

[GalleryGod]

24. Well said , Beth.

I didn't agree with him very often.
He blessed me in 1979 on his visit to Philadelphia.
Half a lifetime ago.

Very mixed emotions tonight.
But......I do wish I could be in Roma!O8)

[EFerrari]

34. We are there, aren't we? What's a few miles? n/t

[tnlefty]

22. Here's silly for you

I'm not Catholic and so I'm sure that I don't understand the depth of the sadness of those who are and who are feeling extremely sad.

I saw some pictures of the Pope in another thread and he seemed throughout his life to be genuinely happy and to enjoy life. He's lived a long life and I hope that people who are upset can find some comfort in that.

I don't have to agree with the Pope as I don't always agree with the Archbishop of Canterberry, but that is for another day.

Peace to all who are sad.

[Walt Starr]

23. Speaking as a devout Pagan, John Paul II is the best Pope this world has

ever seen.

Nobody in their right mind can ever deny that.

[Eloriel]

26. Uh, well go ahead and call me out of my right mind then, Walt

I don't know about you, I really don't. You've got some very strange ideas about things. And this is one of the stranger.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Besides His Ideas On Sexuality He Was A Fundamentally Decent

Man...


It would be nice if the new Pope would condone all relationships as long as they were monogamous, non-exploitative, and truly loving...

[tavalon]

53. Well

just two out of those three would be nicer. But I'm not Catholic so it makes no nevermind to me.

Pope John Paul seemed like a decent man. May they choose another decent man.

[Just Me]

30. This Pope pushed economic justice and, in spite of his rigid social,...

,...moral edict, still embraced ALL people, no matter what their faith. In spite of his rigid moral rules, he still embraced people. He would hug any human being,...ANY HUMAN BEING,...regardless of whether they might be homosexual, a pagan, a Muslim, a prostitute and so on.

AND he actually chided power-mongering profitteers, openly.

He didn't destroy people. He was an advocate for humanity.

I appreciate him and his life,...I take a stand for him and his life,...for all that.

[BigBearJohn]

41. Amen! Thank you for your stand.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

[EFerrari]

42. Eloriel, he was completely screwed up on sexuality

but in every other respect, he stands head and shoulders about any Pope ever.

Do we settle for this policy from the Vatican? No way. But, still, the man did much to try to build bridges.


Just take a second, and think about it. He reached out to anyone and everyone that he could. JP was, during his lifetime, the most influential person on the planet.

There's nothing strange about Walt's thinking. History will support it and will prove most of the rest of us incredibly myopic. No, he was dead wrong on women's health, on being gay, on most anything that has to do with sexuality. But, his work during his tenure as Pope is unparalleled. And what he got out of it was constant public scrutiny and criticism.

What a deal.

[Sal Minella]

32. Some of us remember Pope John 23rd and

would not agree with you. If we could have had Pope John 23rd for just a few more years, the Catholic church would have become much more humane to women.

[northamericancitizen]

44. I was the exact same thing to a friend today..........nt

[BigBearJohn]

48. I agree 100%

[Bonhomme Richard]

27. Will, I'm not sure if you are confusing crass humor with.............

serious discussion? I don't think a lot of us have a problem with either defending the Pope or degrading him. I as a "fallen catholic" will not defend the action of the church. My complaints earlier today were toward the tasteless humor which started to really get bad during the Schiavo affair. I just fealt that it made all of us look bad no matter what side of the fence we sat on.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. I had to listen to snotty comments all week when Jerry Garcia died.

All the way from George Will to Courtney Love.

But really, anyone mourning the man's probable passing has my condolences. It doesn't, and it shouldn't, mean the Church gets a free pass--- but I can see how now might not be the best time.

[jonnyblitz]

33. and there is a flip side to that also

those of you who are thinned skin WILL NEVER see why some of us on a ((((PROGRESSIVE)))) discussion board might not be all excited about some of the church's/pope's OPPRESSIVE positions on the issues. i mean DUH.

see velmaD's thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3405044&mesg_id=3405044

[VelmaD]

36. I hope you didn't intend...

to use my thread to stir things up. It certainly wasn't posted in a spirit of any ill-will.

If I'm reading too much into your post here let me know.

[Just Me]

39. Geez,...and I thought the "thin-skinned" felt safer in a progressive,...

,...INCLUSIVE environment. Guess NOT!!! :grr:



Want HATE? Want ANGER? Want to beat the shit outta' somebody when they're down?

JOIN THE "jonnyblitz" PROGRESSIVES!!!


So, do you belive progressives and liberals are predatory assholes that just can't tolerate "thin-skinned" decent people who have the capacity to appreciate the life and death of a human being in spite of their position/authority/controversy?

Who are you?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

43. I think you're both overreacting and taking his post out of context

I'm Catholic and I can definitely understand WHY Progressives have issues with the Pope and the Catholic Church. As VelmaD put it in another thread, the Catholic Church has a horrendous stance on women's issues, and many think the stance on gay rights is deplorable as well. How could you agree with my post above, and then misunderstand jonny's?

[BigBearJohn]

46. Just Me -- I just have one thing to say to you 1000 times!

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:
:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

49. It would be nice to strikeva balance between adhering to Progressive v

values and succumbing to the whims of every person with a gripe. Lately, there appears to more of the latter than the former.

[Az]

35. Humans: Reason and Compassion

We argue our points based on reason as we see it. Often our arguments clash because we base our reason on differing premises. But if we were lead by reason alone our species would have long ago dissolved into warring individuals with no desire to come together on any issue.

Compassion seldom makes the cutting edge of our arguments. But it is always present in our actions. For it is finding ways to make our community a stronger one that drives us. Sometimes we have to put reason and arguments to the side and raise compassion above the arguments and differences.

When people are grieving they are in an emotional state. They are more focused on finding compassion from their fellow people. Reason has far lower impact on them at this time. Their mind is trying to heal. It is trying to deal with the overwhelming sense of loss. To assail them at this juncture gains us nothing. It only alienates them further and destroys any trust we may have established while discussing matters of reason.

I disagree with the Catholic position on many issues. But today I have a shoulder my fellow DUers... no my fellow humans can lean on. I can stand the weight for the time. I fear what happens when we can no longer stop to lend each other such a shoulder when others are suffering.

[BigBearJohn]

40. God bless you. You restored my faith in humanity.

[BigBearJohn]

37. Wise words to soothe the savage beast. Thank you Will. Really.

You calmed me down like no one else could.
You really did put it in perspective.
Thanks for your wisdom.

[Pithlet]

45. I'm not even Catholic

And I knew DU was probably going to be a place I was going to have to avoid when the Pope passed. It looks like I'm going to be right, sadly :(

There have been a lot of wonderful, heart felt posts from other non-Catholics expressing their sympathy. DU isn't all bad. But, just like any other group, it is the vocal few that get the bulk of the attention. Just know, Will that there are plenty of non-Catholic DUers here who won't use this opportunity to bash and flame. Catholics get enough of that as it is. Of all the groups here at DU, I think they get more than their fair share of it.