Fox is sending soldiers to Arizona borders to counter the minutemen

[cidliz2004]

of course, on the Mexico side.

The asshole wants their population to flood into our country, collect benefits and send part of their (our) income to Mexico!

I hope that there is a real showdown and that this is brought to the forefront of the news. Our borders need to be guarded.

[Selatius]

1. Fox can't do a damn thing on the US side

As long as those soldiers don't violate US territory or shoot into US territory, let him spew whatever bullshit he's got.

[cidliz2004]

5. What do you suppose their "marching orders are?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. To ensure teh safety of Mexicans IN MEXICO

and arrest any of these idiots that CROSSES the border... into Mexico

[stevedeshazer]

2. Speaking of guarding our borders,

Do you have a link?

[cidliz2004]

3. Lou Dobbs CNN

[stevedeshazer]

14. That's a man's name, not a link.

[AlCzervik]

43. i have one for the man and the link

www.cnn.com/lou

[stevedeshazer]

49. thanks!

[cidliz2004]

52. I know Lou Dobbs is not a link, but there was no link to give! I heard

it on Lou Dobbs

[Medium Baby Jesus]

45. Funniest post of the day

:thumbsup:

[Extend a Hand]

4. I think it is mean

not to let desperate people immigrate to this country legally and easily. Let them be legal and pay taxes-- then if they send money back to mexico I don't care.

[cidliz2004]

10. The problem is that they are coming in and automatically eligible

for benefits.

3 MILLION - how many families - how many benefits, and as far as I know the BABIES don't work.

I know that there are plenty of immigrants that do work and are exploited, but the law is the law and if this country is having economic difficulty, then it is common sense to control the illegals coming in and collecting benefits.

I have worked for 30 years, and I am hearing that my SS benefits may be cut?????? WHY partly because we are supporting illegals????? Please, have some common sense. It is like a family that just keeps having babies even thought they cannot afford the ones that they already have.

Give some aide package to the country to develop their own economy. At least that way it isn't a lifelong drain on us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Talling poinnts

now let me try to educate you

Usually most of these people come over for the agricultural season, or the buildign industry, taking the jobs taht you will nto take

Most of them live in an underground paralel economy AVOIDING the migra and the police

Most of them DO NOT pay SS as they are not even paid minimum wage

Most are single

Yes there are families who join them at el norte, but the ones who are the bulk of... are agricultural workers

Here is another trick some of these companies do, to keep your food prices down.. they... call the migra at the end of the season, that way they avoid paying them

Oh and yes I do know what I am talking about

As I said, ENFORCE the laws, and... make those jobs AT LEAST minimum wage...

[John BigBootay]

68. Here's my take

When I was growing up in Washington state, there weren't many migrant workers working the fields. At that time it was mostly high school and college age kids doing the fruit picking to earn money for school.

The last time I was up there I didn't see hardly any Mexican or otherwise Hispanic folks building houses, either. I did see some working in restaurants and kitchens, busing tables and the like. But when I left the Seattle area about 15 years ago, there were very few in these jobs.

So, I'm just wondering here-- you go to say, Nebraska-- who's delivering the pizzas and washing dishes? And is a pizza $50 because it's being made and delivered by a white guy?

At one time, these jobs were the domain of the kids and the terminally slacker oriented. In L.A., where I live now, no middle class white kid I know wants to work in a pizza place or bust his ass in the summer on a building crew-- or god forbid, mow a lawn.

If you asked me, we as a culture, invited the Mexicans to come here by turning up our noses at the idea of the basic hard-work-low-pay job.

We feel entitled to better.

[democracyindanger]

6. And I thought I had already seen the funniest post of the day

But this one takes the cake.

[trof]

7. LOL. I thought you meant the network.

And wondered "Do they have there own army now?"

[cidliz2004]

15. Thanks for the laugh, I should have put Vincenze(?) spelling?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Ok why is it that most Americans believe that OTHER

countries don't have a RIGHT to defend themselves?

What you think a bunch of civlians playing cop will not lead to an incident?

By the way internal passports do NOT exist in Mexico and mexicaon Citisens are FREE to travel across the coutnry.. why should it be different? I know because Xenophobic stupid Muricans think so?

you know how you stop this? ENFORCE existing laws, such as... in the Agriculture sector, which DEPENDS on those aliens to keep your food cheap.

But if oh 20% of big agro was fined a year 2000 per ilegal they hire, you think they would continue? Be honest you think they woudl continue if some of them could do some serious time im Jail?

Stupid...

[cidliz2004]

11. Defend themselves against what? The minutemen not allowing illegal

immigrants to cross over the border? Since when is that a bad idea?
Since the GOVERNMENT won't protect the borders, why shouldn't the citizens?

[LoganW]

17. Has the state repealed murder laws?

Last time I checked you do NOT have a right to kill an immigrant on site crossing the border. Which is no doubt a silent goal of some of these people. They're defending themselves against racists. The KKK is probably a behind the scenes sponsor.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Let me clue you in

you know how poorly marked the border is? Have you EVER worked at the border?

Innevitably one of these minutemen will cross the border, invading another country...

Mark my words

Or they will shoot another kid ON THE MEXICAN SIDE of the border.

SO again you telling me they have no right to defend thesemslves? I bet we woudl do the same... xenophobia really does not help here

By the way, you think the Mexican government should seal the border? (Has been done by the way), but why should they? Why should they prevent people from traveling inside THEIR SIDE OF THE BORDER?

Ah yes xenophobia in the early afternoon can really rile people

[MrNiceGuyDied]

13. Lou 'I never met a Mexican that wasn't stealing jobs' Dobbs?

Is he a credible source nowadays?

Let's see if your comments get a response.

[TheWraith]

9. Let them come. All of them.

Then, when no one's left in Mexico except the politicians, we can take over the entire country for cheap. Maybe sell the Yucatan to Canada--they could use another tropical vacation spot.

[amazona]

64. no I got dibs on the Yucatan!

Canada will have to wait in line! :-)

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[LoganW]

12. With all due respect, spare me the BS

You know damn well half of those "minutemen" are just itching to pull the trigger on anyone they see that happens to be brown. Sounds like Fox is taking steps to insure the safety of Mexican citizens from trigger happy racists.

The right wing talk about an "invasion" reminds me KKK speeches in the civil rights era.

[cidliz2004]

20. Do you live in Arizona? Do you know that illegals are having

multiple babies every hour in ONE hospital in Arizona? Do you know that these babies give automatic citizenship to their families which in turn makes $12,000.00 dollars a year income for them? So a baby being 1 minute old sucks $12,000 out of our economy and my pocket.

I don't want to eat dogfood when I'm retired. I don't want to pay for every Tom, Dick and Harry at the expense to myself, call me selfish, but an investment of Social Security should be there waiting for me when I retire, not given to illegals that are outfoxing the system.

I am not against immigrants as long as they go through the proper channels and get into this country LEGALLY.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Yep and you realize how many AMREICAN Seniros are taken

care off at Red Cross hosptitals in Tijuana?

So you hate International Law, your problem... being born in the US (or Mexico for that matter) grants citizenship...

That is the case...

Look pal I live at the border, and I know the issues far better than most... what is about to happpen in arizona WILL LEAD to an incident or two...

[tsuki]

29. I thought that was changed. Being born in the US of illegals does not

automatically make you a US citizen. Was it changed back?

[LoganW]

30. Ummm

do you think the constitution has been amended to repeal the 14th amendment and you just didn't hear about it?

Or did you never bother to even read the constitution and realize that was a part of it?

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

That's pretty clear now isn't it? Now please go and actually read the US constitution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. that too

:-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. It was never changed

This is International Law

Yuo get your citizenshop by blood (parents) or location, where you are physically born

For most people it is one and the same

You can also become a naturalzied citizen, but that is country by country

[tsuki]

42. I googled. It was the United Kingdom and Australia that changed

their laws.

[LoganW]

23. So?

"Do you know that these babies give automatic citizenship to their families which in turn makes $12,000.00 dollars a year income for them?"

Good maybe that baby will have a better life. I pay taxes too and don't mind. I don't put a price on that childs well being. Are you a native american? Oh probably not. Guess you're benefiting off of the blood of native americans. More of a price than you're paying now.

"I don't want to eat dogfood when I'm retired"

Yea that's the mexican plan.

You never addressed the fact that racists are behind this. Basically you don't care if racists get to shoot up some brown people as long as it saves you money.

"I am not against immigrants as long as they go through the proper channels and get into this country LEGALLY."

Which in other words makes it impossible unless you are rich and/or well connected.

[Sandpiper]

24. Do you live in Arizona?

According to your profile you live in Illinois.

Your concern for those of us living in the border states is very touching though.

:sarcasm:

[cidliz2004]

57. I have family there

and I hear a great deal about some of their problems,

oh, by the way thanks for caring to look up my profile!

[yankeedem]

31. Yet you don't advocate the only solution that will solve the problem

Take the charters away from the businesses that hire them, and put the burden of proof back on business to prove their employees are legal. No jobs, no illegal aliens.

I would like to see your documentation of that $12,000 given per child. And having a baby in this country doesn't give citizenship to the parents, though it does allow the parents to apply I believe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. You are correct they can apply for a tGreen Card

[tsuki]

44. How does Canada handle this problem?

[LoganW]

48. Simple - they don't bitch and moan

Canada lets TONS of refugees and other foreign people come to Canada. More than any other country in the world I believe.

Kind of interesting. In order to have the BEST odds of getting in to canada you have to be poor and/or persecuted or otherwise not well off.

If you want in the states you've gotta be rich and/or well connected.

[Toots]

46. $12,000. is about what our attack helecopters use in a few minutes firing

I would rather taxpayer money went to babies recieving $12,000 than to spend it killing babies. Priorities I guess. :shrug: People are people. I don't care if they are brown skinned or not. I'd rather give up our money for life instead of death....

[cidliz2004]

54. It is about not sucking the economy dry, that is why there are laws

Of course, this country can take in EVERY STARVING PERSON in the world right? How many people would that be now? While we feed all of them, lets not forget that our schools are being underfunded, our aged eating dog food and/or not being able to afford medical care, millions of AMERICAN children not receiving proper medical care because of NO MONEY, NO INSURANCE. Who cares about them right? The economy has no money for THEM, but LOTS of money for everybody else. Gee common sense is really lacking here.

[yankeedem]

56. Talk to your president

Who is spending that money on tax cuts to the rich and pre-emptive war.

Seriously, step AWAY from the freepers, sllllowwwwwly.

[TroubleMan]

50. Your anger is aimed at the wrong people; you should look up and not down

This is a common trick that the rich and powerful have used forever, and it always works. All the problems you have cited and blamed on illegal immigration are not caused by illegal immigration. It's caused by the greedy, the rich, and the powerful. They have found a scapegoat for you to direct your anger at.

Instead of directing it at the real source of the problem, greed, they have tricked you into believing that illegal immigration caused you to have your benefits cut. This has worked throughout history, and it's one of the best plays out of the elite playbook. Here are some examples:

The poor whites blamed the Indians for their problems on the early frontier days. The problem was actually caused by large plantation owners using slavery instead of hiring people. Also they used power, political favors, and money to buy up all the land and not share it. This pushed the poor whites to the outskirts of the territories and into Indian territory. Of course, the Indians were blamed.

Post reconstruction white sharecroppers and tenement farmers blaming black sharecroppers and tenement farmers for their problems. Once again the problem was greedy land owners practicing unfair practices, but like usual people blame those below them, instead of looking up, and the blacks were blamed.

In the early union days big companies would break picket lines by hiring starving, unemployed blacks to work for them. Instead of blaming the greedy companies, they blamed the blacks, who were just trying to feed their families.


It seems it's almost human nature to blame somebody who's in a worse position than you or who is more defenseless. It's hard to lay the blame where the real problem is, the rich and powerful. They use their money and power to amass more money and power. The dirt poor are already dirt poor, and have nothing else to give. So where does this extra money and power come from? You....It gets squeezed out of you.

It's hard to look at the rich people and say that they're the ones doing wrong, that they're the ones hogging all the resources, but it's true. It's hard for you to admit that because everybody wants to be rich and powerful. Everybody wants to move up in the world. You look up to these people thinking you could one day be like that with hard work and discipline (if you're good) or that you can scheme your way into that (if you're bad).

Most people want to be rich and powerful, so they think those people must have done something good to deserve it or are really hard workers. That's usually not the case. Nobody wants to be dirt poor, so they think those people have done something bad or are lazy. I know from personal experience, that's almost never true. I refuse to paint such a broad swathe to judge people, because there's good rich people and there's bad poor people. But your problems are caused by the bad rich people and not the bad poor people.

The problems you're mad about are caused by companies like Walmart who practice unfair business practices, anti-unionism, and who kill off a lot of jobs and small businesses. They also pay so low that it lowers the wages in your area. Also, they have horrible benefits, so that more employees are forced to apply for state benefits. When your benefits are cut, do you blame the Walmart worker? Is it the fault of the minimum-wageslave, who has to work at Walmart because the business they work for got put out of business by Walmart, that you lost some benefits? No, it's the greedy executives at Walmart that took it. Your money went to buy their mansion. However by your logic, you would blame the worker.

The problems you're mad about are caused by the rich and powerful voting to give themselves a tax cut, who voted on the bankruptcy law, who mandated the No Child Left Behind Act and refused to fund it.

Your problems are caused by big money going into politics so that the rich can enact the laws they want so that they can legally steal from you.

That's who you need to blame, not the illegal immigrants. They are just fighting to feed their families. They're not trying to take your job or your benefits. They're just trying to survive. Instead of blaming them, you should help them out. If you and others teamed up with them maybe you could do something to change the injustices that are causing problems from you.

You are idolizing the people who are stealing from you and hating the people who share your problems.

Also, all those examples I have cited above led to violence. The poor killed each other like pawns on a corporate chessboard, while the rich cashed in on the situation. Listen to what you're saying now. I don't have your post open to read now, but you said something along the lines of "defending your border" and that "the militia should defend the border" or something. You may not be advocating violence, but it seems like you're heading down that path. Right now you may think violence in this situation is abhorrent, but it seems that if you're pushed to hard, you might think of that.

I'm not blaming you - it's not your fault, but it's not the fault of illegal immigrants either.

[kk897]

60. TroubleMan--Bravo!

Of course, probably the most famous example of the dynamic you express is the Holocaust. We'd all do well to remember your wise words, as well as history, before we begin to blame those who are less fortunate than ourselves for our lesser miseries.

[TroubleMan]

61. How could I forget that....man....thanks for reminding me

I started another post about this in GD if you're interested

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3397764

[Lone_Star_Dem]

67. Excellent post

I'm glad I kept reading before I replied to the poster. You made this point much more clearly and eloquently than I ever could have.

[napi21]

25. I think you're wrong on the itchy trigger finger.

I am afraid there will be a bad incident occur, simply because the leaders of the minutemen can't possibly control 1500 people! But I can't fault these people for trying to do something themselves. They have tried all the methods they've been told to do. They went to the council meetings, plead with Congress and HOmeland Security, and noone will do anything to help them.

I feel sorry for the poor in Mexico too, but that doesn't mean I believe theyy can just break our laws! And the law breaking doesn't stop with just sneaking across the boarder. Ask someone who lives near the boarder. Where is most of tthe crime? Murders, robberies, rapes, beatings..it's unrealistic to expect our citizens to put up with that in their back yard!

[LoganW]

28. Give me a break

"HOmeland Security" The idea is to focus on terrorists who intended violent harm to the country. These people are just looking for a better life, and we are supposed to have an organization designed to deal with terrorists devote resources to these people?

Well as long as homeland security can be devoted to non-terror matters perhaps we should let them move in to other areas such as phone taps and e-mail monitoring of common citizens?

We were told Homeland Security would deal explicitly with terrorists. Now everyone wants it to handle every other issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. hmm living at the border

and having worked along side law enforcement... yuo truly think civilian patrols at the border will stop the far better armed (and motivated) gangs that work BOTH SIDES for the drug traffic?

Oh did I mention that these gangs are American and Mexican?

Did I forget to mention that petty crimes goes up in times of economic pressures? (Which we are living through right now?)

[Solly Mack]

18. sniff sniff. scratch scratch. sniff sniff

I'm just saying...

[GiovanniC]

35. Definitely Pizza Flavored

[kk897]

62. Solly Mack: an aside

Hi Solly Mack: we rented "Yes Men" because I'd seen your sig line. So glad we did! Thanks.

[Solly Mack]

65. Glad you enjoyed it...though I'm not sure "enjoyed" is the right

word. I think my eyes fairly popped out of my head while viewing it. I was caught between being totally amazed by the stupidity of people and just plain outraged. The college students gave me so hope though...

:hi:

[XemaSab]

26. I've got a GREAT idea!

Let's go to war with Mexico!!!!!!

It'll take people's minds off the Iraq debacle (which in turn took people's minds off Aghanistan).

What could possibly go wrong?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

27. The barbarians start encircling the camp

That is distinctly one of the stages to the end of a society. Unfortunatly, we have been exhibiting many of the others over the last couple three decades.

[Speck Tater]

32. From the subject line I thought...

Oh no! Newscasters with rifles. Then I realized you meant the other Fox.

[H2O Man]

37. This is another controversial topic.

Rather than having it get off on an emotionally charged start, perhaps it would be better to break the discussion down into smaller parts. For example, are there "dangers" with illegal immigration from Mexico into the southwestern US? Are these dangers financial? Could they include a potential for terrorists to enter the country? And will the "showdown" with the "minutemen" and Mexica troops be a spark that sets off a powder keg and creates an increase in violence in that area?

These are important issues. They deserve serious discussion, without the emotional part getting in the way.

[GiovanniC]

38. I Agree With You 100%!! Those Damned Foreigners Keep

stealing all the really sweet fruit-picking jobs, the janitorial jobs, the lawn-mowing jobs, and the super awesome restaurant dishwashing jobs.

[AlCzervik]

47. you know when the economy takes a down turn

many times they blame it on the illegals. Maybe the minutemen should go visit the homebuilders and large corporate farms that employ them instead of confronting the immigrants.

[cidliz2004]

51. And Government Benefits!!!!!! WTF????? Don't you know that?

[YankeyMCC]

40. Oh oh

This smells awfully familiar ala American-Mexican war and a lying, imperialistic US President who probably lied about what side of the border our troops were on in the incident that started that war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Yep, it does smell of that

and we could not have a leftie elected next year President of Mexico, now can we?

[tyedyeto]

53. Strange that on today's 'AZ Daily Star' website...

the only item that mentions the Minuteman project/protest is on the opinion page.

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/thu.html

Section: Opinion
Minutemen vigilante project could be a disaster

The Star's view: Civilian patrols on the border could make serious trouble and won't make a bit of difference in U.S. immigration policy.

The Minuteman Project, a gathering of supposedly hundreds of American vigilantes who say they will patrol the border for illegal immigrants for a month beginning April 1, is a disaster in the offing.

Its leaders and participants are wholly mistaken in thinking they will make a whit of difference in the formulation and conduct of immigration policy. Moreover, while it may not be intended, there are strongly racist overtones in this project.
>snip

[LittleClarkie]

55. I gotta get more sleep

I thought that Faux News had gotten their own troops or something.

[tyedyeto]

58. And on today's 'Tucson Citizen' website there is this ....

Legal observers to monitor rights abuses during border watch

The Associated Press


PHOENIX - The American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona will send legal observers to the border during a monthlong operation by civilian volunteers who will patrol the frontier and report illegal immigrants.
The legal observers will watch for potential civil-rights abuses by members of the Minuteman Project and will also monitor law enforcement operations and note potential violations against either the Minutemen or opposition groups on hand for the protests, state ACLU officials said.

"We recognize the right of the country to defend its borders, but it must be done by the proper authorities and in a humane way," Eleanor Eisenberg, executive director of the ACLU of Arizona, said in a news release. "Too many migrants, coming to this country for the jobs we offer, have died in the desert from heat, dehydration and exhaustion. It would even more tragic to have migrants die as a result of violence."

Organizers of the Minuteman Project said the civilian volunteers, some of whom will be armed, will meet first for orientation sessions and a rally Friday in Tombstone, a one-time silver mining town, then fan out later along the border for a month and report sightings of illegal activity to Border Patrol agents.
>snip

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/

I for one am glad that the ACLU is going to be out there as a watchdog for the rest of us who live here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Eeek! Eeek! Our racist militia is endangered!!

We are about to be invaded by poor people willing to do the work we won't do!! Capitalism is threatened! We'll all have to eat enchiladas and listen to corridos!

Blaming the victims of American predation is so much easier than challenging the corporations, backed by the glorious American military, which is the cause of the displacement of poor people.

[Sandpiper]

66. Next thing you know, they'll want to give

Spanish names to the cities and towns of the southwest...

Oh, wait a second.

[amazona]

63. ha I thought you meant Fox TV

I have to admit I had a pretty hilarious image in my mind.

Yes, our borders need to be guarded. But I'm more pro-Fox than pro-Bush, and some of this Mexican talent is very real.

Did you see this story?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot.html

These Mexican high school kids beat out MIT!

Me, I'm in favor of some sort of American union, if only for selfish reasons. We have a common culture with Mexico and many common beliefs, and it seems silly to have such a barrier between us. But it needs to go both ways. U.S.ians should be allowed to work/buy property in Mexico. And Mexicans should be allowed to do the same here. At least in my ideal world this would be the case. We share the Gulf of Mexico and a general oil & gas development region, not to mention a common religion, for many of us a common language, a common history, so on and so forth.

The Minutemen get zilch-o sympathy from me, they are just taking a break from beating up blacks and "communists" (in other words, me).

We need a way to protect Mexico, Canada, and U.S. from terrorists, absolutely agreed, but picking on Mexican maids is probably not the way to do that. We have got to find a way to uplift wages in Mexico and parts of the Southern U.S. or people will continue to sneak into the high wage areas, it is only common sense.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[DaCheat]

69. Why do people keep saying...

That Americans won't dishwash or pick fruit of build houses. When my father was unemployed, he would have taken any of those jobs. Now, I am not advocating either side of the argument, I just wish that people would stop saying that no one would take those jobs. Most upper-middle class people wouldn't take those jobs, but I sure would if it was the only means of supplying myself and my family.

[pinto]

70. Locking.

The original poster has had member status revoked.

Please feel free to continue disussion in another thread.

Thanks for your consideration.

DU Mod