"Michael kept the parents from being with Terri when she died!!!"

[Bluebear]

I have no idea whether that is true or not. I bring it up only for lurking conservatives to ponder this point:

This is what the gay marriage debate boils down to. It's not about the wedding cake having two grooms on it, it's not about the wedding notice of two lesbians being printed in the Times-Picayune next to your daughter KayBob's announcement or any other stupid trappings that 'threaten the holy sanctity of marriage as being between one man and one woman'....

Scenarios such as the header of this thread happen every day to gay people who are kept from making health decisions for their partners; Dying gay men and women have been kept from seeing their partners of 5, 10, 20, 30, 50 years by blood-relatives of the dying who wouldn't recognize the "lifestyle" of the patient. The wishes of the dying are ignored every day as gay partners are shut out from visiting their life partners AT ALL by mothers, fathers, sons and daughters of gay men and women. Funny thing, nobody was camping outside the hospital with bagpipes and megaphones wailing about this injustice.

Whatever happened with Schindler/Schiavo this morning happens every day. Michael Schiavo happened to hold the legal paperwork that made him guardian and decision-maker this time and as much as it rocks your world, it's the legal rights and responsibilities of gay marriage that gay Americans are seeking.

[Kerrytravelers]

1. Once again, Bluebear hits the nail square on the head.

[blondeatlast]

2. Amen to that.

I just hope to hell that Michael Schiavo and his parents are well-protected.

May God be with you, Mrs. Schiavo. Rest in His loving embrace at last.

[Stryguy]

3. Point well made! NT

[DODI]

4. Excellent point. I am sad to say I know three people

who have experienced this. After caring for their loved ones they were shut out at the hospital. How can people be so cruel. This is the issue I use when advocating for civil unions/gay marriage. People don't realize how often this happens. I think I have changed a few minds with it.

[imenja]

5. his side

the hospice worker asked the brother to step outside so a final check of Terri could be done. The brother got belligerent, and had to be forcibly removed by police. Michael said they should not return because Terri needed to be able to die in peace rather than in the middle of an altercation.

I'm sorry but I don't see the gay marriage parallel. This was her brother. I understand your outrage over the fact that homosexuals don't enjoy a right that they should by all standards of human decency and equality maintain, but a brother's or parent's status bears no relation to the sexual orientation of the patient.

[Bluebear]

8. "I'm sorry but I don't see the gay marriage parallel."

You know how they say if you go into a Lamborghini dealership: "If you have to ask, you can't afford it?"

If you don't see the parallel, nothing anybody says will make you see it.

[Tansy_Gold]

14. It's all a matter of being free to make choices that will be honored

A friend of mine had lived with her "husband" for over 20 years but they had never made their relationship "legal." Having a team of lawyers in the family, they made sure that the living wills were in place, the titles to the properties, and so on. But they never got married.

When he was diagnosed with cancer, he consulted her on all the decisions that were to be made, and they made the decisions together, without interference from other family members.

But when his condition became terminal, other family members -- including the wife who had divorced him almost 30 years before -- now wanted to exercise their legal rights to make choices in his treatment, and who got to visit him in the hospital and even the details of his funeral!

Fortunately, they were straight and were able to marry, just about a year before he died, thus cementing my friend's right to care for him until the end -- not only as she wished, but as he wished. He was able to choose who would care for him.

In a country where not everyone has that right to choose, something is terribly wrong. We don't always get to choose who we fall in love with, but we should have the right to choose to have that person with us 'til death do us part.

[Bluebear]

15. Thank you Tansy Gold

"In a country where not everyone has that right to choose, something is terribly wrong." You said it all!

[Tansy_Gold]

20. You're very welcome, Bluebear

.

[imenja]

23. I don't think you really want understanding to extend to insiders only

I think I made clear my support for full equal rights for all Americans, especially in circumstances such as these. But I guess you're right, I'm not a millionaire and I'm not in a gay partnership. Still, since 90% (or is it 80%?) of Americans are not, we need to understand your perspective as well.

I understand the denial of the brother's ability to see his sister led you to think about the status of gay Americans. It also leads me to think about the unequal state of health care in this nation, and the fact that Americans without great wealth or medical malpractice awards could not afford prolonged hospice care in the first place. One can consider a number of injustices related to the Schiavo case, and countless others, but that's different from a direct parallel. I nonetheless support fully the issue you raise of full rights for gay partners.

[Bluebear]

24. I don't know how else to help you, Imenja

This thread was not about what the brother did or who saw who when she died, it is about how loved ones are legally kept from seeing their partners every day, how can you not see parallels?

[imenja]

25. I edited my post, please read

and answer if you like, or not

[Bluebear]

26. There are so many injustices in this whole sordid fiasco

Historians will have a field day with it. The parallel I draw is only one irony and certainly not the only one.

[foreigncorrespondent]

27. Oh please!!!

I understand your outrage over the fact that homosexuals don't enjoy a right

I think you truly need to rethink what you are saying here. Do you think us pesky gay women and men would enjoy the fact we are allowed to be with our partners when they die?

Of course we want to be with our partners when they die, but when our partner passes it is something we certainly won't be enjoying.

Ya know, we happen to LOVE our partners just as much you happen to love yours, would you ENJOY the death of your partner?

Through all the Terri threads over the last few weeks, that has to be the most insensitive thing I have read.

[imenja]

28. I don't think you read my post carefully

I suggest you do, and my reply to bluebear. I dispute nothing that you say above. I don't mind people getting upset at me over a difference of opinion, but it is tiresome when they are arguing about something in their own heads instead of what I've written.

[foreigncorrespondent]

30. Oh come on!!!

You entire post:

imenja (1000+ posts) Fri Apr-01-05 09:10 AM
Response to Original message

5. his side


the hospice worker asked the brother to step outside so a final check of Terri could be done. The brother got belligerent, and had to be forcibly removed by police. Michael said they should not return because Terri needed to be able to die in peace rather than in the middle of an altercation.

I'm sorry but I don't see the gay marriage parallel. This was her brother. I understand your outrage over the fact that homosexuals don't enjoy a right that they should by all standards of human decency and equality maintain, but a brother's or parent's status bears no relation to the sexual orientation of the patient.

Now I read your entire post prior to posting my first response. As I was reading it, it was your use of the word ENJOY that stood out to me, so I called you up on it. After all, no one enjoys the death of a loved one, and especially the death of a partner.

So please instead of the using the tired old "I don't think you read my post carefully" argument, try actually reading what reply posts are actually saying.

[imenja]

31. Sigh

I told you to read my first post and reply to Bluebear more carefully because I argue nothing that you accuse me of. If I had said what you accuse me of, I'd be furious at myself as well.


The mere fact I use the word enjoy makes you venomously angry? I said in this post and more clearly in the one below that I support full equal rights for gay partnerships, marriages, and individuals. Must you really become furious over a simple word choice? Your position is entirely irrational. I can't imagine how you react when you encounter someone who actually objects to gay rights. You're far from an effective advocate. Must every minor point, a simple word choice, be an issue for armed combat? Carry out your nuclear war with someone else. You really are being insufferably dull here.

[foreigncorrespondent]

32. Mate...

...your obviously aren't reading what I am saying. I never accused you of anything. I responded to something you actually said.

You are obviously missing the point regarding your use of the word enjoy. Let me put it to you this way.

1. Is death a nice thing?

If you answered no to this, then you understand that death is something that people do NOT enjoy witnessing.

Your use of the word enjoy is totally inappropriate. There is not one person on earth who enjoys witnessing the death of their parter in life. Do you understand?

I am not accusing you of being a bigot. I am not accusing you of being homophobic. I am not accusing you of being a freeper. I am not accusing you of anything. I am just trying to make you understand that your use of the word enjoy in this instance is totally wrong.

So next time, rather than attack, actually read what I am saying, and then reread what you have said, and perhaps you will see what the hell the point is I have been trying to make.

Yeah I really would just "enjoy" being in the room when my partner dies. :eyes:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imenja]

37. rather than acknowledging you made a mistake

in interpretation by accusing me that I suggested gay people enjoyed watching their loved ones die, you responded in a less direct manner. Some might respond by conceding they were mistaken, that the other poster had not actually suggested that homosexuals had some ghoulish desire to observe death, as you did. That, however, would require magnanimity or, worse yet, a simple recognition that everyone makes mistakes.

The fact remains you were wrong: "enjoy the right" is an EXTREMELY common statement in the English language, turning up 92,600 entries on Google ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22enjoy+the+right%22&btnG=Search)

In attempting to find a way to understand why you might have trouble with such a common statement, I suggested in might be a difference in language usage between our two countries. In turns out, however, that is not the case. In searching only pages from Australia, Yahoo turns up 295 entries for that same phrase:
(http://search.yahoo.com/search?_adv_prop=web&x=op&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&va_vt=any&vp=enjoy+the+right&vp_vt=any&vo_vt=any&ve_vt=any&vd=all&vst=0&vf=all&vm=i&vc=countryAU&fl=0&n=40).

Additional Australian only searches: "Enjoy rights" turned up an addition 215 sites: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22enjoy+rights%22&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&n=40&fl=0&vc=countryAU&x=wrt&meta=vc%3DcountryAU&_adv_prop=web

"Rights enjoyed" 383 sites: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22enjoy+rights%22&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&n=40&fl=0&vc=countryAU&x=wrt&meta=vc%3DcountryAU&_adv_prop=web

[foreigncorrespondent]

41. GIve it up! (n/t)

[imenja]

42. you couldn't have demonstrated my point more perfectly

thank you

[tx_dem41]

49. From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary: 1st definition of "enjoy"....

..."to have for one's use, benefit, or lot : EXPERIENCE <enjoyed great success>"

There is no "happiness" or "joy" implied in this definition, as it's used in the phrase "enjoy the right".

Now, that I tried to help, continue to talk past each other.

[imenja]

52. that seemed to be the extent of her concern

that the use of the term "enjoy the right" made me the most insensitive person she had encountered in ten weeks.

[tx_dem41]

54. I tried to help you ...

but the crickets are chirping while we wait for a response.

[imenja]

55. from whom?

From her or from me? Some people aren't able to recognize that even they can make mistakes. She has already make her response clear.

I appreciate the help.

[tx_dem41]

56. From her.

Good luck and glad to provide what small effort I could.

[sandnsea]

39. Defend the televised memorial

Loving daddy Schindler was at that thing TODAY, live on MSNBC. I was a little perturbed about them being kept from her funeral, until I saw that.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the Schindlers are a shining example.

[imenja]

43. You want me to defend the televised memorial?

Why? I wouldn't dream of it.

[sandnsea]

45. Oh well good

Glad to know you've got your limits.

[imenja]

47. limits on what?

what do you think I've said? I told the OP what Michael Schiavo's side of the story was. Is there something wrong with that?
:banghead:

[sandnsea]

48. It sounded like the opposite

Sorry. I need sleep or hormones, not sure which, probably both. You're the second person I've misunderstood tonight.

[fob]

6. Good point Bluebear. And may I also refer said lurking conservatives

(Lurkatives?) to the story of the woman who missed being at her Grandfather's side when he died because of the circus created by those surrounding the Hospice.

[Jamastiene]

46. Good point there.

I read that article too. And this issue does tie in very well to the gay marriage issue as well. I wish I had thought of this thread.

[meegbear]

7. Hear hear, BB!

Another great writeup, as always.

[KittyWampus]

9. FYI, It's A Lie.

[underpants]

10. Correct Randi Rhodes had a guy on complaining about the CBS obit

Apparently it stated that Michael was at her bedside. It was pre-written. Apparently her brother and sister were at her bedside.

[Bluebear]

13. The Schindler scenario or ?

[Lindacooks]

16. That sure is a lie.

See this thread for the truth, from Mr. Schiavo's attorney:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3395480

Michael Schiavo was told, just before Mrs. Schiavo died, that her brother had had 'an altercation' with a police officer outside the room, and was asked if Bobby Schindler could come into the room with the police officer.

THAT'S why he said 'no'. He didn't want a police officer and the simmering anger of an altercation around his wife when she died.

And btw, how the hell was he or anyone else to know that she would die in the next 10 minutes? He was hardly 'denying her family' the right to be with her when she died.

[Bluebear]

17. Thanks for that link Linda, you cook :)

[Lindacooks]

33. LOL! Anytime!

;)

[incapsulated]

11. Good point

Although I don't know if I believe all this about them being denied access to her bedside. If he did, I can understand. Who knows what sort of scene they would create.

[Cleita]

12. I heard the same on my local radio this morning, but

haven't heard it since. Apparently, the Schindlers priest and spiritual advisor said that Michael kicked them out ten minutes before she died. I don't know how true this is. Randi said later that Michael and her brother and sister were there when she died, but the Schindlers weren't. She had no explanation why. I guess the truth with come out eventually.

[FreedomAngel82]

18. Hear hear

Great post. :) I agree with every point.

[BrewerJohn]

19. Your point is absolutely correct, but

unfortunately, I fear that is exactly one reason why so-called "conservatives" don't want to recognize gay marriage. Hell, they didn't want MS to realize the status of guardian to which he was legally entitled, simply because they didn't agree with his handling of this extremely personal matter. It's all about their butting into situations where they don't belong and have no right to intrude.

[Bluebear]

21. "Sanctity of marriage" evidently ends when end-of-life issues are at stake

The sentimental conservative cry for the parent's having the right to these decisions all of a sudden is beyond me. The simple act of parenting is at first simply biological. Hopefully if all goes well the biological parent then becomes a wonderful mother or father; but the child, however, gets to choose their ultimate life partner, no matter hetero- or homosexual.

[SW FL Dem]

22. Great point! n/t

[foreigncorrespondent]

29. As always...

...very well said, Bluebear.

I really think it will fly over the heads of conservatives though. They refused to recognize the sanctity of the marriage between Terri and Michael as it was.

These people shit all over the sanctity of marriage on a daily basis, but will use the protection of the sanctity of marriage argument when it suits their bigoted agenda.

[tedzbear]

38. Muhahahahahahahaha!!!

3 million Africans died last year because of big pharmas protecting their drug patents, and you expect me to give a fuck about who was invited to that pop martyr's funeral??????

Muhahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

[Bluebear]

44. I'd love to reply if i could figure out what you mean

>>"3 million Africans died last year because of big pharmas protecting their drug patents, and you expect me to give a fuck about who was invited to that pop martyr's funeral??????

Muhahahahahahahahahahahaha!<<

Wha?

[donheld]

40. Bluebear, I hope your message is taken by Liberals, Conservatives

and everyone in between.

[ananda]

50. two possible reasons

I don't know exactly why Sciavo wouldn't allow Terri's immediate family to be with her when she died. It seemed cruel and just mean.. but I tried to think of reasons and came up with a couple.

First, he might have been concerned about hidden cameras.. you can fill in the blanks here.

Secondly, those Sciavo's have treated Michael abominably and incited some of the xtian fundies to the point of death threats.. you can also fill in the blanks here.

Sue

[izzybeans]

51. Kudos!

nominating!

[solinvictus]

53. And protestors stopped other families from seeing their loved ones..

I am so sick of this Schiavo crap and I'm glad it's fading away.

[R. A. Fuqua]

57. as most American are with us on the T.S. case,

perhaps we should take advantage of the situation and press for gay marriage. Surely people will see how unfair it is for other loving couples not to be able to make the decisions for their partners.


We should get up a big campaign for gay rights -- and use Terri and Michael as an example of how the bond between a couple should be the strongest (as has been supported by our courts). How could any reasonable person deny gays the same rights as M.S.?