Question about Terri Schiavo (Any help appreciated)

[keta11]

When Terri Schiavo was in the vegetative state, was life physically painful for her or was she in some kind of pain living the way she was?

I ask this because I am painfully conflicted about the whole issue. It seems I am the only here who is not happy about her death and who thinks the feeding tube should have been allowed to stay in.

If she was not in pain, why hasten her death??? Her parents were willing to continue to care for her!

Some might argue that she had told her husband not live in a vegetative state. But this is disputed and she wasnt in a position to confirm that. I think the best thing for the husband was to have gracefully divorced her, moved on and let her parents care for her and make the decision about her life especially if her wishes were in doubt.

[beyurslf]

1. It isn't disputed and that is why the Courts have ruled every single time

in favor of Michael. He was doing just what she would have wanted. Life was not painful for her. She had no cognitive ability.

[camitche]

2. Your entitled to your opinion

but that's all it is, your opinion. If I had told my wife that I wanted to die in such a situation, then I would want that.
The courts confirmed this, many times. To go against the will of the courts is unconstitutional and a greater crime than the life of one woman.

no she wasn't in pain.

[Walt Starr]

3. She was ion no pain and could feel no pain

She couldn't see, hear, register pain, hunger, thirst. She couldn't think or reason.

See, most of her brain was destroyed and replaced with spinal fluid. What was left was mostly that portion of the brain which controls autnomic responses such as breathing and heart beat.

[Warpy]

22. She could feel plenty of pain

but she couldn't process it as such.

Pain would have been registered only at the autnomic level, by a rise in blood pressure and heart rate.

The part of her brain that said "OUCH! I don't like that!" was gone.

[Lindacooks]

4. Sigh. The courts decided she didn't want to live that way.

by a preponderance of the evidence. Mr. Schiavo couldn't have put the feeding tube back in even if he had wanted to because it was the court's decision at that point.

And he wouldn't divorce her because he knew she didn't want to exist this way. She made several comments about it after family funerals, to him and to others. The court decided that she did not want to be kept alive with artificial means when there was no hope of recovery.

Divorcing her would have been the easy way out for him. Instead, he chose to stand up for her wishes, even though he has been dragged through the sewer for it.

[Goblinmonger]

7. Wow

I look up after posting mine and see my "brainmate."

[Lindacooks]

17. Yep!!

gmta

[Goblinmonger]

5. Michael

has been getting the shaft in this. I hearly disagree with the "bow out gracefully" avenue. It seems to me that he loved her and wanted to make sure that her wishes were carried out, i.e. not allowed to live in this state. Bowing out would have been the easy way out. I wish the fundies would realize this.

[Fleshdancer]

12. I agree. I would want my husband to fight for my wishes the way he did

I would fight just as hard to see that my husband's wishes were granted just like Michael did for Terri and I would want my husband to to the same for me. The idea that we now have to put it in writing is outrageous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Ok she had no brain activity

in any of the higher centers of the brain

She had flat lined, and this is ONE of the requirements to declare somebody dead or a candidate for an organ donor.

Her state was not different than any of the many heart and lung organ donors across the country.

There is a brain stem still going and keeping these organs going, but nobody is up there

So if you are conflicted about this, you should also be conflicted about heart and lung donors, as well as liver donors. You cannot live without any of these organs. they are harvested from patients in PVS.

[republicansareevil]

8. I think it has to do with dignity and honoring her wishes.

Why do we bury or cremate people instead of dumping their bodies in the garbage since they wouldn't know the difference? Because people deserve dignity throughout their life and even in death. Many, many people would not have wanted to be kept alive in Terri's condition even if they felt she was not suffering. I wouldn't. Some might feel the opposite. But the courts determined that Terri would not have wanted to be kept alive.

[Kelvin Mace]

9. To answer your questions

1) Probably not.

2) & 3) She didn't just tell her husband of her wishes, she also told her brother-in-law and sister-in-law she did not wish to live in such a state.

Her husband was following her wishes.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[JuniperLea]

10. I've thought about this too...

And all I can say is that there is not a chance in hell I would want to lay around staring at the ceiling for 15 years. If she was aware of what was going on around her, she must have been mad with boredom and frustration.

While some ask if it is ethical to remove a feeding tube from a
patient, I wonder if it is ethical to insert one in the first place.
Playing devil's advocate here. If I were a staunch, God-fearing Christian, I would have to believe that a person who can no longer support themselves with food, water or oxygen, has been chosen by God to die and 'come home to heaven'. Who are we to prevent that from happening? And why would we want to keep that from happening? Isn't that the desired end to all believers?

Selfish people of little faith I say.

Now, with the Pope on a feeding tube and the ill health of Jerry
Falwell,I'm wondering if God is trying to tell us something. (Or not:)

If I'm struck down by lightening today, you will know why:)

[northzax]

19. the reason to put the tube in, in the first place

is that it is often not clear for several weeks or months exactly how degraded a brain is (the degrading comes from atropy, a brain scan that night, or two weeks later, shows a full brain, but it has already been killed, it's just a matter of time before it disintigrates.

A comparison. Cut the pith from a tree around the base. For weeks it looks like a healthy tree. Green leaves, everything looks normal. But it is dead, the parts just don't know it yet, it is slowly decaying and there is nothing you can do to save it. Unfortunately, you can't tell that, so you keep watering it, and don't cut it down until it becomes obvious, through cell death, that the tree is dead.

[JuniperLea]

25. thanks for the detail

i fully understand the science behind the act;however, as a purely religious question, i would have to say if you believe in god... the moment a person cannot support themselves by swallowing or breathing, it's the end... god has spoken, so to speak.

[demo dutch]

11. Michael even became a registered nurse so that

he could take care of her. On a religious note, if God wanted her to live it would have turned out differently, he clearly wanted her by his side.

[Az]

13. Why?

Perhaps he loved her and truly wanted to see her wishes fullfilled. He rejected many offers of millions of dollars. He has stayed away from the lights of publicity and remained true to one thing... Terri. I'm sorry but it seems to me that Michael is the one person in this family that has remained true to Terri's wishes.

Her parents have become addicted to a false hope and later became addicted to the attention the media and Cult of Lifers brought to the situation. There is a condition called Munchausen syndrome in which a person becomes addicted to attention due to tradgedy occurring in their life or loved ones. It appears to me that they have become caught up in this publicly aired tradgedy and canno seperate themself from it.

[Vinca]

14. Terry had been gone for years. That was her shell with the tube.

Considering this poor woman ended up in this sorry state by dieting to look beautiful, it's sad the videos and photos that would have mortified her are played 24/7 around the world. I don't care what the parents wanted. Terri did not want to live in that condition. She told her husband and other relatives at someone's funeral. That's what the courts were taking into consideration. While I am sorry for the parents, I think their wish to keep her body going was selfish.

[seabeyond]

15. firstly i dont know you can say "happy" about her death

secondly, it isnt your business, it isnt mine, it isnt congress and it isnt a bunch of right wingers. you may not want her to die. so make sure you have a document stating you want to stay plugged. now if you dont have money to cover it, dont become vegetative in texas, they can pull the plug regardless what you want

but i would want unplugged. my husband is the only one who knows. but he knows how strongly i feel. i dont give a shit what religious orginization tells me i am suppose to stay plugged, he had better damn well fight for me being unplugged.

the court decided thru testimony and witnesses that she did want unplugged. so

she gets unplugged.

her right
my right

and to say what is the big deal, if we arent clear why not just leave her. tell me how respectfull that is to terri. my suggestion it is totally selfish, thinking only of self. what do you mean not a deal leave her.

[JuniperLea]

18. we all have the right to our own feelings

i am both happy and sad. happy because that is no way for anyone to live. sad because our government and ts's family are selfish and heartless. i'd never want someone to live like that for me.

[DearAbby]

16. You may have your life extended under these conditions, if you so wish

But Courts had ruled that Terri would not wish to be kept alive under these conditions. It is the right to make your own choice on how you wish to end your life in these situations.

It should also be a private family issue, or an individual choice. Not the government, certainly.

If you wish to have aggressive medical measures to extend your life at all costs, suggest you place it in a living will and save for the possiblity....because if you are in Texas, if you are unable to pay for it...tough.

[keta11]

20. Thanks for all your replies

I may sound like I just crawled out of a cave somewhere, but

- I DID NOT KNOW SHE HAD TOLD OTHER PEOPLE SHE WOULD NOT WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY.

After the November debacle, I have watched no more than 10 hours of cable TV and have been really busy at work.

[countryjake]

21. It's the way of the USA!

Her feelings were no longer in dispute; it was long ago decided that her husband certainly was acting in her best interests, & as her husband had the right to make the decision he felt she expressed before her heart attack. Others supported this & a court made the final decision what her wishes would have been, not Mr. Schiavo. It respected the "sanctity of marriage", so to speak.

Both sides were incapable of continuing any further financial support for her care. Medicare cuts are making it extremely difficult for care of any people in her state to continue indefinitely. Supporting healthcare funding is not a major concern of people in control these days; a "disrespect for the living", so to speak.

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

23. I am (fortuitously) taking Bioethics and the Law this semester

My professor is an ethics expert (Alan Meisel; you can look him up). We discussed this case quite a bit even before the sideshow of the last 2 weeks, as well as the Nancy Cruzan and Karen Ann Quinlan cases.

Professor Meisel instructed us that people in a PVS do NOT feel any pain, and removal of a feeding tube is not "murder" or painful for them. It's actually considered one of the more peaceful deaths.

The legal rule from the Cruzan case is that clear and convincing evidence of a person's wishes must be shown in order to have medical treatment withdrawn. Although it has been widely debated, nutrition/hydration are considered medical treatments. A person has a right to refuse medical treatment; a competent person who expresses wishes refusing medical treatment, be they written or verbal, has the right under the law to have those wishes respected. An incompetent person also has rights; others may use a substituted judgment standard as to what the incompetent person would want if he or she COULD understand his or her situation.

In this case, Mrs. Schiavo stated to her husband and others that she did not want her life to be prolonged by tubes. She stated this while still competent, and her husband steadfastly respected her wishes, as was his right under the law. She was denied NO constitutional rights; don't listen to the wackos who said Scott Peterson and his ilk received more due process than she did. The Supreme Court has found a constitutional right to refuse medical treatment, and the courts repeatedly found that there was clear and convincing evidence of her wishes.

[Pool Hall Ace]

24. I haven't seen anyone express "happiness" over her death.

I am relieved for her, but not happy. It would have been great if she could have recovered function through some miracle, but her husband -- her guardian -- testified that she would not have wanted to be kept artificially alive, and the courts upheld it.

I don't know if there is an afterlife or not, but if there is a peaceful paradise where one's soul may spend eternity, this woman certainly is deserving.