Pope says life-extending treatments are a moral duty for Roman Catholics

[Nothing Without Hope]

...but doesn't give any information on how it will be paid for. He also doesn't distinguish brain-dead people or terminally ill people in horrible, intractable pain facing even worse. The Bush administration will love it - it's very timely for them. They'll use it in the 2006 elections too, where there are Catholic candidates who have spoken out on this issue with a view that dissents from the pope's.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7344152

Pope's 'living will' outlines life support
Says feeding through artificial means not extraordinary measure

By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor
Updated: 12:17 p.m. ET March 31, 2005

PARIS - Pope John Paul II, now being fed through a nasal tube because of his throat problems, effectively wrote his own "living will" last year in a speech declaring some life-extending treatments a moral duty for Roman Catholics.

The ailing pontiff sharply narrowed Catholic guidelines for treating patients nearing death in March 2004 when he described tube-feeding as a normal treatment rather than an extraordinary measure that can be stopped if all hope of recovery fades.

This indicates he would want to be kept alive by artificial means even if he fell into a coma or a persistent vegetative state, such as the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo in the United States whose feeding tubes have been removed after 15 years.

"The pope's statement would have to be considered the equivalent of his living will," said Father Thomas Reese S.J., editor of the Jesuit weekly America in New York.  "It would be very difficult to unplug him if it came to that."

(snip)

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Oh boy, here we go.

[Alizaryn]

2. Hummmmmm

Does he mean "life-extending" as in "Health Care"?

[ohio_liberal]

3. Hmmmm....

Imagine a pope who was elected for life, put on a ventilator and a feeding tube, unable to complete his duties, and kept alive indefinitely. Now that could get messy.

[tjwmason]

24. Wait a couple of years

I'm not joking either. It's a problem which J.P.II does need to sort out (he may have done so already). The problem is that nobody outranks the Pope, thus nobody can dismiss him even the Sacred College.

It would cause massive trouble for the Church. However much his actions are simply ratifying those made by various Cardinals, Commissions, Dicasteries &c. everything including the appointment of every single Bishop rests in his hands.

[Nothing Without Hope]

39. There's also the issue of exactly when he is "infallible"

This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church in which, when the pope speaks "ex Cathedra" (if I recall this correctly), he speaks without possibility of error. Now this does not happen in his ordinary everyday life, only in these special situations. But if he DOES choose to speak in this sense on an issue, I would assume that's IT, end of discussion, case closed.

[smoogatz]

4. Pope's Brain to Be Kept Alive in Jar 'til Second Coming

Fine with me. I say keep him alive as long as they possibly can, no matter how much agony he's in. Suffering's good for the soul.

[MountainLaurel]

10. ROFLMAO

That's pretty much what I was thinking too. Remember Strom Thurmond, and how in those last years he'd occasionally get trotted out in Congress, even though he was living in a long-term care ward in Walter Reed? I was always convinced it would reach a point where the only thing you'd see at his place in Congress was his brain pickled in a jar, with wires attached.

[candy]

5. That's why I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore------

along with quite a few other reasons.

[marew]

14. Me too!!! n/t

[sui generis]

6. what about for non-catholics?

does the pope think us unsaved heathens should be forced to lay around with a tube up our ass til our brains run out our ears?

[republicansareevil]

7. And yet he didn't make it official policy...

"John Grabowski, associate professor of ethics at Catholic University of America in Washington, said the pope had made his views clear but "left many theologians scratching their heads."

The problem was that he expressed this in a speech, not in a doctrinal document that made it official Church policy.

"The pope can say any number of things but he has to tell the bishops' conferences when they have to change something," added Father James Keenan S.J., ethics professor at Boston College. "He hasn't done this."

As a result, he said, the U.S. bishops' conference and the Catholic Health Association have not renounced the more flexible earlier position even though many Catholic leaders support Schiavo's parents' demand to continue feeding her."

I wonder why? I'm not being sarcastic, I really do wonder!

[Nothing Without Hope]

11. Yes, this really does need to be clarified. What IS the official policy?

Clearly, the Poodle Press will want to boost the administration's position, which this little summary of the Popels speech certainly does.

But what is the OFFICIAL policy? Has it changed? We need clarity here, because this speech is going to be quoted and used, count on it.

What a mess.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

23. yep

.

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. His encyclical: "Evangelium Vitae"

This offers a much more in-depth look into his thinking on this, and other subjects:

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. Section 64:

"64. At the other end of life's spectrum, men and women find themselves facing the mystery of death. Today, as a result of advances in medicine and in a cultural context frequently closed to the transcendent, the experience of dying is marked by new features. When the prevailing tendency is to value life only to the extent that it brings pleasure and well-being, suffering seems like an unbearable setback, something from which one must be freed at all costs. Death is considered "senseless" if it suddenly interrupts a life still open to a future of new and interesting experiences. But it becomes a "rightful liberation" once life is held to be no longer meaningful because it is filled with pain and inexorably doomed to even greater suffering.

Furthermore, when he denies or neglects his fundamental relationship to God, man thinks he is his own rule and measure, with the right to demand that society should guarantee him the ways and means of deciding what to do with his life in full and complete autonomy. It is especially people in the developed countries who act in this way: they feel encouraged to do so also by the constant progress of medicine and its ever more advanced techniques. By using highly sophisticated systems and equipment, science and medical practice today are able not only to attend to cases formerly considered untreatable and to reduce or eliminate pain, but also to sustain and prolong life even in situations of extreme frailty, to resuscitate artifi- cially patients whose basic biological functions have undergone sudden collapse, and to use special procedures to make organs available for transplanting.

In this context the temptation grows to have recourse to euthanasia, that is, to take control of death and bring it about before its time, "gently" ending one's own life or the life of others. In reality, what might seem logical and humane, when looked at more closely is seen to be senseless and inhumane. Here we are faced with one of the more alarming symptoms of the "culture of death", which is advancing above all in prosperous societies, marked by an attitude of excessive preoccupation with efficiency and which sees the growing number of elderly and disabled people as intolerable and too burdensome. These people are very often isolated by their families and by society, which are organized almost exclusively on the basis of criteria of productive efficiency, according to which a hopelessly impaired life no longer has any value."

[Nothing Without Hope]

37. THanks! But it's not really clear to me

He says in the last two paragraphs:
...By using highly sophisticated systems and equipment, science and medical practice today are able not only to attend to cases formerly considered untreatable and to reduce or eliminate pain, but also to sustain and prolong life even in situations of extreme frailty, to resuscitate artifi- cially patients whose basic biological functions have undergone sudden collapse, and to use special procedures to make organs available for transplanting.

In this context the temptation grows to have recourse to euthanasia, that is, to take control of death and bring it about before its time, "gently" ending one's own life or the life of others. In reality, what might seem logical and humane, when looked at more closely is seen to be senseless and inhumane. ..

It's not clear whether the forbidden euthanasia in the second paragraph includes stopping the extraordinary support mentioned in the earlier paragraph. Is the feeding tube extraordinary support? But in his speech, the summary said that he included the feeding tube as normal, required support. Big issue here - I hope a spokesperson steps forward with clarification.

[Cuban_Liberal]

52. The feeding tube is not considered extraordinary.

Hydration and nourishment, insofar as they do not cause additional chronic discomfort to the patient, are considered ordinary care.

[Nothing Without Hope]

53. So it would be ordinary care to keep a brain-dead individual alive

despite no cerebral hemispheres for 15 years by round-the-clock care and involving constant feeding, hydration (Mrs. Schiavo can't swallow on her own), antibiotics and other medications.

I cannot agree that this is a "moral duty." It would destroy a family and would not aid the brain-dead individual to become better. With no cerebral hemisphere functionality, there can be no improvement or consciousness of any kind.

What a mess.

[Cuban_Liberal]

55. She wasn't brain dead, to be accurate.

She was PVS, and hydration and nutrition are not considered extraordinary care, no.

[alcuno]

58. It's a machine - a feeding tube; the contents are chemicals.

I'm a Catholic and don't know what the Holy Father is talking about. Neither does anyone else in my family. I think that he is trying to come up with a more consistent policy on "life" but he has caused great confusion.

[Nothing Without Hope]

8. I am hoping someone will find and post his actual words

For something like this, that will be quoted as authority, we need the exact words.

[Bridget Burke]

19. As others have pointed out, this is NOT official policy

"The pope can say any number of things but he has to tell the bishops' conferences when they have to change something," added Father James Keenan S.J., ethics professor at Boston College. "He hasn't done this."

There are rules about changing Church doctrine--which has NOT been in favor of all possible technology being used. Such changes are not just extrapolated from a speech. Now that he can't speak for himself, others are siezing their opportunity.

Vatican watchers have been making bets on the next pope, but it's really an unknown. There are some advantages to tradition--the voting will NOT be done electronically. I'm sure some of the entrenched bureaucracy (the world's oldest) would prefer to postpone the election as long as possible. Who would have predicted a Polish pope?

[Nothing Without Hope]

22. Yes, the waters have certainly been muddied. I hope a clear statement

of the Church's official policy is made soon. The Bush cartel is going to push this pope speech thing for all they're worth, and people are going to be very confused. The situation arises in so many families EVERY DAY. This is so cruel, to hold this uncertainty over their heads at such a wrenching time.

[Cuban_Liberal]

31. Here is what he wrote in his encyclical, 'Evangelium Vitae':

:64. At the other end of life's spectrum, men and women find themselves facing the mystery of death. Today, as a result of advances in medicine and in a cultural context frequently closed to the transcendent, the experience of dying is marked by new features. When the prevailing tendency is to value life only to the extent that it brings pleasure and well-being, suffering seems like an unbearable setback, something from which one must be freed at all costs. Death is considered "senseless" if it suddenly interrupts a life still open to a future of new and interesting experiences. But it becomes a "rightful liberation" once life is held to be no longer meaningful because it is filled with pain and inexorably doomed to even greater suffering.

Furthermore, when he denies or neglects his fundamental relationship to God, man thinks he is his own rule and measure, with the right to demand that society should guarantee him the ways and means of deciding what to do with his life in full and complete autonomy. It is especially people in the developed countries who act in this way: they feel encouraged to do so also by the constant progress of medicine and its ever more advanced techniques. By using highly sophisticated systems and equipment, science and medical practice today are able not only to attend to cases formerly considered untreatable and to reduce or eliminate pain, but also to sustain and prolong life even in situations of extreme frailty, to resuscitate artifi- cially patients whose basic biological functions have undergone sudden collapse, and to use special procedures to make organs available for transplanting.

In this context the temptation grows to have recourse to euthanasia, that is, to take control of death and bring it about before its time, "gently" ending one's own life or the life of others. In reality, what might seem logical and humane, when looked at more closely is seen to be senseless and inhumane. Here we are faced with one of the more alarming symptoms of the "culture of death", which is advancing above all in prosperous societies, marked by an attitude of excessive preoccupation with efficiency and which sees the growing number of elderly and disabled people as intolerable and too burdensome. These people are very often isolated by their families and by society, which are organized almost exclusively on the basis of criteria of productive efficiency, according to which a hopelessly impaired life no longer has any value."

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

[Zenlitened]

44. The phrase re death "before its time" seems open to interpretation. - n/t

[Midnight Rambler]

9. Translation:

Don't pull the plug on ME

[Nothing Without Hope]

15. Yeah, that's what it sounds like, but I have to think he had something

more global in mind. If he really believes this and it isn't (yet) official church policy, what happens next?

[geomon666]

12. Do anything and everything you can...

to keep you from meeting your god. Because for a huge, huge, portion of you, you are not going to like the place you are going to.

[beyurslf]

13. A serious question for Catholics: what happens if the Pope is

incapacitated and on life support? Who is in charge? A new Pope cannot be chosen while he is alive, right? Given the medical advances today and ability to keep people alive with multplie medical problems much longer than in the past, isn't this an issue that is just waiting to explode for the Church?

And I should point out I am not Catholic or bashing...just curious what will happen if this occurs?

[Bridget Burke]

21. The Vatican is a bureaucracy that will continue functioning.

I'm sure some of them would prefer to keep on running things. A new Pope might want some changes.

[anitar1]

34. Exactly my thought when I saw this.

The Vatican is a political organization,IMO. I wonder if the Pope actually issued this statement. As a matter of fact, seems as if he is confined and at the mercy of others. This dovetails nicely with the Schiavo case.the Pope will see whatever they want him to see.And perhaps he is too ill to care. In any case, I think the church can get a lot of mileage out of this.

[Left Is Write]

16. I just don't understand that.

My church's official position on end-of-life issues is lengthy, but I'll post the relevant excerpt here -

"When medical judgment determines that artificially-administered nutrition and hydration will not contribute to an improvement in the patient's underlying condition or prevent death from that condition, patients or their legal spokespersons may consider them unduly burdensome treatment. In these circumstances it may be morally responsible to withhold or withdraw them and allow death to occur. This decision does not mean that family and friends are abandoning their loved one."

[Nothing Without Hope]

18. Yes, that sounds compassionate and well-considered n/t

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

27. Don't inject facts into the argument.

;)

[sniffa]

30. because faith stands aLone

[_TJ_]

20. The pope must sense the end is near

...he's already on a feeding tube!

[PA Democrat]

26. Hypothetical question

What if the family can't afford to do that? Should the remaining family lose their home and all their possession to keep a loved one alive against that individual's explicit wishes?

I wouldn't want to "live" like Terri Schiavo did for the past 15 years, and I wouldn't want my family to lose our savings and our home to keep my body alive.

[Nothing Without Hope]

36. Yes - this is why the official policy must be made clear

The pope was just talking in a speech, but his words are being taken very seriously by some and will be used politically unless they are countered. I can't believe the official church policy would support something so cruel and unreasonable, and the brief article says that it is indeed different from what the pope said - but it doesn't spell out in what way it is different. So far, there has been no instruction by the pope to change the policy, only this strange, isolated speech. So there is confusion that must be cleared.

I am hoping a spokesperson steps forward very soon to put people at ease over this issue. I'm not a Christian and feel no need to obey the church's rules, but I do regret the anxiety this is causing families, and at one of the most painful times of their lives. We went through this with my father a few years ago. He was in very bad shape, not recognizing anyone, and the question was raised by the the doctor: do you want to withold food and water? The doctor was strongly encouraging this choice and obviously expected it and saw it all the time. It was a horrible situation, but we said we could not bear the idea of dehydration. He died soon after, so we were spared further wrestling with these decisions.

It happens, sooner or later, in EVERY family. When death is not quick, these questions are asked and answers must be given.

[Zorra]

32. Wow, poor guy, you'd think he'd wanna get to the Pearly Gates ASAP.

When my neighbors dog was old and sick, and suffering terribly, my neighbor asked a friend of mine to shoot the poor dog and put it out of its misery, and my friend did this as an act of kindness toward my neighbor and his dog.

[Lerkfish]

33. I find vatican logic contradictory: no artificial barrier to conception...

allowed but ok to have artificial barrier to prolong life.

If we take their logic about birth control; that it interferes with natural birth and the will of God, then most certainly any artificial means to prevent natural death also interferes with the will of God, right?

things that make you go hmmmm....


I apologize if this has been brought up already. I will now read the rest of the thread to see how late I am to the party with this observation.

[Lindacooks]

43. You're right!

And I'm always amazed at how these devoted believers are so very afraid to die. Isn't that the goal, after all?

[DeepModem Mom]

35. It may be crass to bring up money --

but IMO it is evil to spend one dollar on life-extension when there is no hope when that dollar could be spent on saving a life where there is hope, on keeping a family or a nation financially sound, or even on helping young people get an education or buy a house and build a future.

[Zenlitened]

38. Apparently, the Vatican doesn't feel it's crass to bring up money...

:shrug:

Vatican decries 'religion of health'
By Frances D'Emilio, Associated Press Writer | February 17, 2005

VATICAN CITY -- Vatican officials on Thursday held out Pope John Paul II's stoic suffering with Parkinson's disease as an antidote to the mentality that modern medicine must cure all, calling this a "religion of health" that is taking hold in affluent countries.

ADVERTISEMENT
"While millions of people in the world struggle to survive hunger and disease, lacking even minimal health care, in rich countries the concept of health as well-being figures in creating unrealistic expectations about the possibility of medicine to respond to all needs and desires," said the Rev. Maurizio Faggioni, a theologian and morality expert on the Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life.

"The medicine of desires, egged on by the health care market, increases the request for pharmaceutical and medical-surgical services, soaks up public resources beyond all reasonableness," Faggioni said.

...

Psychiatrist Manfred Lutz, a Vatican academic, hailed John Paul, who for years has struggled with Parkinson's, as "the living alternative to the prevailing health-fiend madness."

Full article
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/02/17/vatican_decries_religion_of_health/

[PA Democrat]

42. Sounds like a contradiction to me

and it seems to me that when the Vatican cannot coherently and consistently express their viewpoint on the topic they should not allow their priests to call Michael Schiavo a "murderer" in the media.

[alcuno]

59. Actually, one of his statements addressed an excessive financial burden.

That that was one of the factors that could determine whether a PVS patient maintained a feeding tube. Bizarre.

[dave29]

40. They should make the pope be on TV 24/7 connected to the tube

with a constant scroll at the bottom of the image:

"IT IS YOUR MORAL DUTY TO KEEP ME IN THIS STATE"

[daleo]

41. There could be vast buildings full of people, row on row

Hooked up to life support, of every kind, with plenty of painkillers. Their brains could be hooked to computers, giving the illusion of a regular existence.

Wait, wasn't that a movie?

[Lerkfish]

46. two movies come to mind: Matrix and Coma

of the two, Coma is more apt.

[daleo]

51. I was thinking of the Matrix, but they both work. n/t

[SarahB]

45. Yeah....

Wasn't there something in the Gospels about "though shall support usage of feeding tubes when people no longer will ever have functioning brains". Ah, I remember it from Catechism now.

[Kinkistyle]

47. Why do Catholics want to keep themselves OUT of Heaven?

Or are they all secretly fearing that they might actually be going to the "other place"?

[mmonk]

49. We're all going to hell,

that's why we want to prolong life. We didn't proclaim we were saved.

[alcuno]

57. My mom calls them all "rogue priests." Now that includes the Pope.

Once again, members of the Catholic leadership are far from their constituents.

[mmonk]

62. and I call them

embarassing and a disgrace, How do you explain it to people because they all ask about it. All I can tell them is my cousin was a priest (now deceased) and he was a very good priest and servant and that not all are bad.

[Nothing Without Hope]

63. But it isn't really clear from the Pope's few oral remarks exactly what

context he was speaking about. His comments were very broad, as if ALL patients whose hearts were beating due to 24/7 100% life support must be kept alive forever, whatever their prognosis or condition. I hope that this is not what he meant and that a clarification will be forthcoming. As it is, this must be causing great anxiety.

[oasis]

48. Jesse Jackson has just arrived at the Vatican:"Keep Pope alive".

[Kinkistyle]

50. LOL n/t

[dflprincess]

54. Oddly, I can remember

when he was younger and healthier, he said extraordinary measures were not necessary to prolong life and that there was a time when nature should be allowed to take it's course.

According to my mother, she and her sister were just discussing this change in his attitude (so I'm not the only one to remember it) and trying to figure out what kind of message it sends to the rank and file if the Pope is reluctant to meet his maker. It upsets my aunt because her husband, when he was admitted to the hospital for the last time, was able to make the decision himself that he would have nothing but comfort care. After speaking to his priest, he even decided to stop having insulin. Uncle had been worried that stopping the insulin might be considered by the Church to be the same as suicide, but his priest assured him it was not - given his the advanced state of his cancer - he was only bowing to God's will and not delaying the inevitable.

[alcuno]

56. Catholics all over the world are now greatly confused.

My mom and I were talking about this tonight and we don't know WHAT the Church's position is on this anymore. The Holy Father may think he has clarified things, but he has, in fact, greatly muddied the waters.

[bklyncowgirl]

60. Is it possible the Pope is not making these statements himself.

I thought I remembered something to the effect that a few weeks ago the Pope was released from the hospital with statements about how we should not cling desperately to life at the risk of losing our humanity.

What's going on.

Pope John Paul is a very sick man. He is surrounded by alot of people with thier own agendas. I could see a situation where he is totally unaware of what's going on and his "statements" are carefully prepared by a group of prelates who may, as the saying goes, be more Catholic than the Pope.

Sorry for the tinfoil. I just finished Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons" so I'm a little suspicious of anything that's going on in Vatican land.

[mondo joe]

61. I hope they keep him alive on every pump and widget they can find

Maybe for another 20 years.