The Schindlers are not bad people.

[kslib]

Maybe it makes me a bad Democrat, but I feel for Terri's parents. Yes, I believe strongly that they should have let her pass before now, but I also believe that they loved her. How sad for them and for Micheal that this was dragged into public view. How tragic that they were not even allowed to be with her in that most frightening moment of death to comfort her. No matter what my parents had done, I would want them with me. How terrible it is that Micheal and the Schindlers are not able to comfort one another because of bitterness on both sides which was probably made worse as a result of the publicity. Shame on everyone who presumes to pass judgement on either side in what should have been a most private situation. Shame on both sides for forgetting that Michael and Terri's parents and siblings are human and will equally grieve. If any of you are parents, imagine how hard it would be for you to let go even though you believe strongly that someone shouldn't be allowed to exist in a vegetative state. Now think what it would be like if you didn't believe that way. We are Democrats; we are supposed to be the compassionate party. Don't let politics get in the way of your humanity.

(posted in an earlier thread)

[Walt Starr]

1. They created a media circus. They are profitting from this.

I have no sympathy for them. I reserve my sympathy for Michael Shiavo.

[goodboy]

45. they did sell the names of their donors to a RW mass mail company(nt)

[tammywammy]

75. And also for a $100 donation you can receive a video of Terri.

When I heard that, that's when I really lost all respect for the Schlinder's.

[Iris]

99. WTF?

Before or after her heart attack?

[tammywammy]

100. Here's a link

I was assuming it was the stuff from 2002.

I heard it on the radio the other night, I'll see if I can find out more.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/28/news_pf/State/Schiavo_case_has_myri.shtml

Edited to add link to story about the donations for videos.

[Fridays Child]

121. That is the single most disgusting violation of her privacy.

Michael Schiavo should sue the Schindlers into the next century.

[Ironpost]

107. I would hope I could be so strong if I were in his shoes

Michael may you be blessed

[AutumnMist]

2. I Agree

I do believe they loved her. And what you just wrote brought tears to my eyes. Have a great day my friend.

[kris10ep]

16. I have no more sympathy

They are selfish people....its time to let go.


http://kpramblings.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-all-news-about-schiavo-situation.html

[FreedomAngel82]

38. I agree

If they really loved her and cared about what SHE really wanted they would've told Tom DeLay and Bill Frist to fuck off but they didn't. They could've told the protestors to join a mailing list (Email) if they wanted to be kept updated and thanks for the support but go home. They caused this mess. They told lies about Mr. Schavio and disoreted the truth about her condition claiming she could do all this crap when it was far from the truth. They're heartless and I don't have one bit of sympathy for them. The only two who do deserve it is Mr and Mrs Schavio.

[kslib]

31. Thank you.

It's good to find a sympathetic ear!

Peace to you.

[Liberal Veteran]

3. I'm sorry for their loss, but the Schindlers lost my sympathy....

...in this when they admitted that they would never pull the plug on Terri, even if they knew her wishes.

What could possibly be more selfish than to put your own interests ahead of your adult daughter's?

[Bridget Burke]

4. Too bad they let politics get in the way of THEIR humanity.

Too bad they accepted money from right wing nutcases & allowed their daughter's death to become a media circus.

[sui generis]

5. agreed

although I think there is also a point where this is overwhelmingly thrust on us as a topic in which we reject all of it, if somewhat callously.

DU'ers are not bad people either - just not all the same kinda grown up.

[tx_dem41]

6. I agree with the sentiments in your post. ....

They should be criticized for wrecklessly supporting charges of Michael abusing Terri, but, quite frankly, if I felt as they do, and my daughter were dying...I'm not sure what I would be capable of either.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. If your daughter was dying and you loved her

would you say you'd deny her own wishes? Would you pump up merchandise of her? Would you make all these false claims with no proof on someone she loved?

[Modem Butterfly]

7. They've pissed away my sympathy for them

After all, they're making money off their dead daughter. How low can you go?

[Katarina]

13. Exactly my feelings

You don't sell videos of your daughter for $100 a pop. You don't sell the email list of people that supported you. You put what is best for your daughter above anything else you may feel.

[SteppingRazor]

8. Well, yes, but...

"frightening moment of death"? For who? Terri? She wasn't happy, sad, frightened, or anything else. I can't see how, then, she required comforting.

Certainly, it might have been nice to let the family in for their own benefit, to say goodbye, but you'd think the Schindlers would have said thir goodbyes a long time ago. They had more than a decade, after all.

Keeping someone in a state of living death simply because you can't let them go makes a mockery of that person's life. I feel for the Schindlers, certainly, but I think their fight over the past decade and more has been more selfishness than anything else.

[kslib]

19. She probably didn't feel anything.

but death is frightening to most people. Yes, it would have been nice for both sides to put aside their differences and come toghether when Terri passed away. It doesn't matter whose fault it is. From a lot of things I'm reading, it may very well have been Mrs. Schindler's behavior that caused this part of the story.

They had a decade to let go, so did Michael. I had years to let my nanna go (she was terminal for a long time), but I still wanted to be with her when we "pulled the plug." It was the right thing, but still hard. Thank god no one made me leave. There is an aunt of mine (on this grandma's side) who was very against my mom removing life support. Nanna didn't have a living will, but we believed that was what she wanted. We didn't exclude this aunt from being there, and I'm glad we didn't. I don't know how ugly it got, I was in Jr. High at the time, but I believe it was the right decision to allow my aunt to grieve with us even though we didn't get along. Our mutual love for my nanna allowed us to be together for at least that moment.

[Ripley]

9. Do you know them personally?

If not, how do you kow? You sound like they were dragged kicking and screaming into the limelight. Bullshit! They begged for this media attention and government intervention. I have no sympathy for their horribly insensitive actions surrounding their brain dead daugther. I would never be such an attention whore for my child if I had one.

Funny how yall just won't admit the facts of this case and up to the last moment of her life, you have to blame the husband for one more evil thing.

Cripes -- get a life!~

[kslib]

14. I believe that you misunderstood me.

I expressed compassion for both sides. I did not express feelings of anger or blame against Michael. You misunderstood my post if you felt that way. No, it isn't the way I would like to believe I would handle it, but I'm not a parent, nor have I been in their situation. However, if I believed that my child should not be allowed to suffer in a state similar to Terri's, and my child's spouse was allowed to "leave the plug in" you can bet that I'd fight, in public if I had to, if I believed it was the right thing to do. I'm just asking people for compassion for the people; not their acts. Just because you don't believe someone else's belief should that be a reason to be hateful? Can't we separate the acts from the actor? Perhaps not.

[Ripley]

18. The acts from the actor?

The parents invited the entire circus to the hospice when they enlisted Randall Terry to be their spokesperson. Do you really want me to believe they were innocent bystanders who got caught up by outside people using them?

They put their faces on TV daily. They hawked their daughter in the most grotesque fashion possible.

And your comment about Michael not letting them spend the last 10 minutes with her is absurd - no one's decision but his. They had their time with her, why couldn't he have the last 10 minutes? You equate that action of his as if he denied them from ever seeing her for years.

Enough with the threads about how wonderful these poor parents are.

[kslib]

23. Wow, you are expressing a lot of anger.

I haven't seen many threads about showing compassion for the parents or I wouldn't have posted this one. I don't think we will ever agree. I can't convince you that the parents deserve compassion, even though I disagree with their handling of the situation. You won't convince me that they deserve my anger. I think that's all I have to say on that subject. It's just not in me.

[Ripley]

29. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

I am sick and tired of people saying the parents are innocent.

That is all.

[Karenina]

51. The Schindler's Circus prevented OTHER FAMILIES

from peacefully releasing THEIR loved ones to the void at the time of death. Their "very personal soap opera" has once again diminished the image of the U.S. as a nation. Your *dauphin can pontificate on one woman's death (self-inflicted) while CUTTING FUNDING TO -0- for your soldiers, YOUR CHILDREN, returning from Iraq with brain injuries (INFLICTED BY HIS DECISIONS)??? WHERE is the "tipping point?" Many of us, outside your borders, feel no need to discuss it anymore. It's simply GROTESQUE.

[ultraist]

82. I agree. Their actions were incredibly selfish

The other Hospice patients and family members had to endure a sniper on the roof, a bomb sniffer dog, police officers and security check points in the Hospice, bagpiper noise all day and night long, screaming fanaticial cult followers calling them murderers, and press circus...

To deny dying people and their loved ones of a loving and peaceful environment is cruel and shameful.

[Horse with no Name]

105. You forgot the drum that never quit beating--day or night

signifying the beat of Terri's heart.

[AutumnMist]

Both Sides Were More Than Happy

to use the media as a tool for their own views. But sadly they fought for themselves for a woman who had no voice. Do any of us really know what she wanted because of the media and the blurbs from family? I doubt it. Its a personal matter that we all have had a very slanted and brief view. I think ultimately we don't know if Terri Shiavo wanted her parents to be left out of her death. None of us know that. And we don't know who she was as a person. I think we should let her parents, husband, and friends, grieve accordingly. Can't we allow Terri's memory to be of her as a real person? Not this poster child for the right or left political party? I am sure she didn't ask for that either. But yet we don't let the debate die. If she wanted to die in peace...why the hell are we arguing over her life? Are we no better than what you deem her parents to be?

[Ripley]

25. Who made her a poster child?

Which Liberal, which Democrat?

Her parents, Randall Terry, Jerry Falwell, Tom Delay, Smirk, Jeb!, Rick Santorum and the MEDIA made her a poster child.

And how anyone can believe "well, we just don't know if Terri would have wanted to stay in a PVS for 65 years or not, and oh yeah, have her parents hack off her limbs and perform whatever surgeries would be necessary to keep her heart beating and her eyes open so they could comb her hair" is beyond my comprehension.

[kslib]

35. So where is the line drawn?

How about PROM (range of motion) so that she didn't get contractures, which are really very painful? I don't think they were advocating amputation or heroic surgery. Where is this anger coming from? It sounds as if there is a personal story behind the emotion. If you want to keep it political, keep in mind that middle of the road (and left, like me) constituents are turned off by negativity. Compassion will get the Dems much farther. More flies with honey.....

[Ripley]

39. Honey you have the problem, not me.

I have no anger problem other than your misinformation. There have been thousands of threads on this case here at DU as well as other news sources... if you don't know the facts, maybe you shouldn't post nonsense. The parents clearly in a deposition in court said that if she became diabetic, they would amputate her limbs. If she had heart disease they would order bypass surgery.

So quit trying to paint me as an angry "Culture of Death" liberal, okay?

[kslib]

60. Don't call me Honey.

It's degrading. I have just as much right to my opinion as you do, and every reply I made to your posts was civil and respectful. If you cannot have a debate with me in a respectful manner, then I would appreciate it if you did not speak with me at all. I am more than willing to speak with you about the issues surrounding my post. My intent was not to present facts, but emotions. This is an emotional case for many people, and I felt that the anger towards Terri's parents, people that these posters don't even know, was getting out of control. I wanted to point out that it was sad, no matter who was right or wrong. I never called you a name like "culture of death" liberal. I don't believe that about you, because I don't believe it about myself. I support a person's right to die with dignity and I also support a woman's right to choose. I also believe that every "monster" is human, and deserves our consideration as such. If you can't separate my expression of emotion from my politics, then I can't help you to understand my position.

[Ripley]

62. I live in the south and it is quite common for people to call others

"honey." Sorry it whacked your world. BTW as a female (which you could see by checking my profile) I don't see how it degraded you.

You called me angry at least three times. Now you are claiming I have disrespected you. Ironic huh?

[kslib]

64. I live in the midwest

and in my area it's quite common for people to call democrats stupid hippies. It doesn't make it right. How is being disrespectful and angry ironic?

[Baconfoot]

85. It is condescending to repeatedly call someone "angry." Point Ripley.NT

[ultraist]

87. stupid hippies is equivalent to honey?

We often call our women friends or acquaintances hun, honey, sweetie here in the South. It is not derogatory.

As far as repeatedly calling someone angry, I can't speak for that poster, but I am angry. I'm outraged that these fundie cultists, led by Bush, Delay and their klan are taking over our country. This whole situation was despicable. I am OUTRAGED that my rights as a woman are being threatened.

The US CONGRESS can find time to meet on a weekend to push their religious agenda, but they cannot find time to meet on a weekend to devise an exit strategy to end the slaughter of thousands of Iraqis.

If you aren't outraged, you are NOT paying attention.

[Tansy_Gold]

109. I'm paying attention

and i'm beyond outraged.

Are the Schindlers "bad" people? I don't know. I'm not sure how to define "bad" these days.

But I do believe they have done bad, utterly unforgivable things. They have been cruel to people who did not ask for it and did not deserve it, all in the name of their own selfishness.

I know this post is replying to ultraist, but I'm not addressing just that post, because I agree with it, and with ripley's, too.

I'm sorry the Schindlers lost their daughter. I have a daughter, too, a very beautiful one who is an almost scary size 3 and pregnant for the first time. I worry about her. She's in New Jersey and I'm in Arizona, and if anything happened to her, I'd be a long way away.

But she's an adult and she's married, and I have to trust in her husband to take care of her. That's the way of the world, that's the way the gods and goddesses intended it.


And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, Speak to us of Children.

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Khalil Gibran, "The Prophet," 1923


I braved the spiders on the top shelf to get my copy of "The Prophet" and post that short passage.

The Schindlers were not a stable bow. They could not let Terri leave them, and that is the mark of troubled, disturbed parents. That they would let the money from Michael's settlement come between them and him and their daughter, is likewise a sign of parents who loved themselves more than they loved their daughter. That they would inflict unmerciful treatment upon her body -- amputations, surgeries, etc. -- not because they believed she wanted it, would want it, or that it would help her, but solely because they wanted to keep her with them, that is despicable. And that they would allow her living death to become a political football and a media circus is beyond reprehensible.

Again, I am sorry that they lost their daughter 15 years ago. They are not the only parents to have lost children, and many who have lost children have not had the support system -- emotional, political, and financial -- that Bob and Mary Schindler have had.

The more I read about them, the more selfish, vindictive, and cruel they become in my mind. They caused untold anguish to the other hospice patients and their families and loved ones. That I simply cannot forgive them for. I cannot.

My heart goes out to Michael Schiavo, to the woman who has stood by him through all this horror and who is, imho, a testimony to the love Michael has borne for Terri all these years, and to their family. May they live in peace and happiness for many years to come.

And if there are any goddesses or gods in the great beyond, may they bring to Bob and Mary Schindler and their vicious entourage whatever is fitting.


Tansy Gold

[Batgirl]

110. that quoted passage is an amazing description

of the sometimes painful wondrousness of being a parent:

You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

[Bunny]

88. Disingenuous much?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kslib]

71. Thanks!

:hi:

[tblue37]

96. They actually said that if she developed diabetes

and her limbs became gangrenous, they would be willing to have them amputated to keep her alive, even all four of them. Seriously.

Just sayin'.

[AutumnMist]

49. How Many

people on both sides attracted attention? Through the media? The debate here is not if she should have been saved...or should have been allowed to die. You can list all kinds of people that were for Terri's tube being pulled...there were just as many coming forward saying it shouldn't have been. My point was that we don't really know what she herself wanted . Very few of us knew her family, her husband, or the woman herself. Can't she just die without all of the hatred on both sides? This is a person. Not an opinion. Just let it rest for her. Do you know what she would support in terms of public opinion? And how much attention do you think she wanted from her husband or her parents via the media? She was a hospice patient. Not a freaking PR person. May she rest in peace. That is all I really want to convey.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. Both sides?

Excuse me but I don't think so. The Schindlers are the one's who started this crap. Schavio only did go on the media for him. He wasn't pumping his wife like the Schindlers making false claims that she can talk, move, cry etc.

[ultraist]

84. Both sides?

Bull fucking shit. I didn't see Michael join up with pro choicers, end of life euthanasia activists and gather them and their spokespeople to protest.

He didn't attach himself to any political agenda nor did he recruit any cult leaders as his spokes people.

Did you miss all of the Randall Terry press conferences? Did you not see the whacked out protestors? Did you miss Bush's "pro life" statement and the Jeb press ops? What about Delay's grandstanding diagnosis in the Senate? WTF?

This whole charade was about Bush's "prolife" fundie cult. MILLIONS of people die everyday, but we heard about Terri Shiavo because of BUSH and the fundie cultists.

Delay
GOP memo stating this was a chance to fire up their "prolife" base
US Congressional emergency weekend meeting
Bush flying home early from vacation
Jeb's "Terri law"
Terry Randall

'nuf said

[_TJ_]

10. With parents like that, who needs parents

eom

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Their 15 minutes (of fame) are now OVER.

I hope.

[Batgirl]

26. I hope so too, but

somehow I can picture them lingering on with the half-life of nuclear waste, popping up on cable news as "experts" whenever another story comes up that involves someone on life support.

The cable networks are in mourning over this (not over Terri, but the loss of a sensationalistic storyline.) I'd assume they've got a crack team of "investigative reporters" beating the bushes right now for similar situations that they can yap about. Just like for a while, they were obsessed with sharks attacks, the sniper, missing children etc.

I suppose that for some time, every time they get wind of a feeding tube being removed somewhere they can invite the Schindlers on Larry King to keep us well supplied with inane chatter.

[meegbear]

12. Whenever I see Randall Terry etal, scream like idiots

I will always think of the Schindlers. Their view of them is forever tainted.

[hlthe2b]

15. that is such an insulting statement: "Maybe it makes me a bad Democrat,"

to feel sorry for Terri's parents.

Are you trying to incite people here with such a statement? I would have thought I was reading Free Republic!

[kslib]

59. I wondered when that would hit

I figured I'd eventually be labled as a freeper for expressing an opinion different from others. I give up. Only on this forum would I be labeled a Republican for expressing compassion for both sides, right or wrong. THIS is what's wrong with dems and repubs. We will never be able to agree on anything, there will be no compromise. I'm going back to the pet forum.

[hlthe2b]

120. No one has labeled you because of expressing a different opinion....

In fact, I certainly did not label you at all. What I am reacting to and apparently so have others, is a sanctimonious attitude that you are the only one that feels compassion for the parents at the same time we might disagree with them. You comment that "perhaps that makes you a bad Democrat," implicitly implies the rest of us have no compassion for them. That is what many of us resent. Hopefully, you passions got the best of you and that is NOT what you meant.

[Fenris]

17. They lost me when they "employed" Randall Terry.

[seabeyond]

20. kslib what about what they did to michael, regardless of their love

for terri. he is a person. they never believed he abused and strangled terri causing her heart attack. they never mentioned that until well into this thing, after a settlement for money. now they accuse another human, and he is a person, with feelings, they have accused him of murder, and they have spread it across the nation. regardless of what they do to their own daughter, who doesnt have a clue, on the simple fact of what they have done to this man, warrants them bad people. he had a family., he has a life, he has children. and they have contaminated his very existance on this earth for the rest of his life. they have contaminated the view of their children with their father, even if those kids dont believe a word of it

lets take it a step further, in their selfishness and unwillingness to let terri go, what did they do to this nation this last month. they ripped and tore and created an even greater anger

i suggest, they are not good people

[kslib]

28. I feel bad for Michael too.

I've stated that several times. I focused on the parents/family because most of the posts on this site were in support of Michael. I do believe that he made the correct decision, I'm just trying to point out that no matter what they did, I strongly believe that they did it out of love and desperation. I also wanted to show people that we often forget the human side of the people we disagree with. It's hard to see it, but it's there. Yes, they did bad things but should we hate them for it?

[seabeyond]

34. call a man a murder, accuse a man of murdering another human

i am sorry, we have integrity within, i dont care how pained i am about a loss i am going thru, i can never see an example of accusing a person of murder when I KNOW he is not

michael will have to deal with it. not a matter for me to feel sorry for him or not. will be his journey

but i am not going to create these parent as just grieving, that is ugly. as ugly as one gets

and i dont need to hate them for it. but they get to own what they create, what they did. this is it. not a lot of respect. not seeing christianity, or integrity, and certainly not hnesty. they dont have a lot of character

no, i cannot justify what they did

[gulfcoastliberal]

57. Do you have a link to your statements that supported Michael?

NT

[Discord]

21. they have exploited Terri plain and simple

no sympathy from me.

They may have had the right reasons at heart 15 years ago, but they certainly did not by the end of it.

[cidliz2004]

22. After seeing their daughter like this for 15 years I would think that they

would have GOTTEN IT. They are either very dense or at least some of the family has a hidden agenda. I think it is showing mental illness when the family behaves the way that it has for as long as it has.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. To me from their actions

it's pure hidden agenda. Plain and simple.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Take the "sym" out of sympathetic,

and you get: pathetic.
Whose fault was it that they were not allowed in the room? Would you trust them not to make a scene, whip out a camera, wear a wire or go into histrionics and try to injure Michael? I certainly wouldn't.
Death is natural, their despicable grandstanding isn't.
They barely deserve my pity, certainly not respect, IMHO.

I'm sorry, I really do appreciate your compassion, you must be a bigger person than I, after the last two weeks all I can muster is relief.

[beyurslf]

27. I feel bad for them that they lost their daughter... but they CREATED the

publicity. For that, I feel for Michael who never invted it in.

[kslib]

30. That's all I'm asking

Just that people feel bad for their loss. I too, feel for Michael.

[ultraist]

89. We should feel bad for people who..

used thier daughter's body to push their fundie "prolife" cultist agenda further onto the national scene?

No. I don't feel bad for any "prolifer" cultists who are threatening women's rights.

FUCK THEM AND ALL "PROLIFER" FUNDIE CULTISTS INCLUDING DELAY & THE BUSH BROTHERS!

[BeyondThePale]

32. They just played them on TV

[Ms Chicklet]

47. Like the cough medicine ads...

"I'm not a loving parent, but I play one on TV!"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Lousy parents.

Unless you consider force feeding against her wishes good parenting.

[arwalden]

36. I Disagree...

They may not have started out as bad people... but they became bad people along the way. Obsessive, compulsive, self-absorbed, blinded, vindictive people. This behavior pattern will continue. Their perpetual desire to interfere and to return themselves--to the spotlight and to make this all about THEMSELVES--cannot be satisfied.

Don't forget greed. Surely they're already figuring out ways to turn this into cash for themselves or for their holy-roller causes.

[Crankie Avalon]

37. But they're probably not good people, either...

...they were the driving force in making this into the three-ring circus it became. It seems possible that they were controlling parents who may have had quite an impact in their daughter's bulimia, an illness that first develops mostly in adolecent girls, after all. Who had more impact on her during that time than them?

I think I'll reserve my sympathies for Michael Schiavo, if you don't mind. He is the one receiving the death threats from the "supporters" of the Schindlers, not the other way around.

[seabeyond]

40. schindlers could put the death threats to rest, and they didnt

in something they wrote about terri's life they left it open to how she ended up as she did. even after she is gone they still feed the story michael did it

they know the man is being threatened and his family adn his kids and extended family, and they allow it, incite it

[ComerPerro]

42. Fuck them. They used their daughter

They invited this circus to intrude on what should have been a family matter.

They didn't respect her wishes, and they sure as hell didn't respect her privacy. They didn't allow her the dignity she deserved.

[Ms Chicklet]

43. The Schwindlers are scumbags

They've whored themselves and their daughter in shameless ways. They blather about "life" then hire a terrorist like Randy Terry to speak for them. They distort, manipulate, bully and lie to try and ruin Michael Schiavo for the sin of not knuckling under to the domineering dad.

Now we'll get the Grieving Family Tour, as they make the rounds of Larry King, Nancy Grace, Greta Van Sustern and Dead Intern Scarborough. After that, they'll go on the Jesus Freak rubber-chicken circuit, speaking to the brainwashed KKKhristian right-wingers. Throw in a book and a movie deal, and they'll be cashing in.

[ultraist]

91. fuckers. KKKhristian cult has found a new platform with this

They can meddle in end of life decisions and promote their other whacked out "prolife" and regressive ideology along the way.

:puke:

[Johonny]

44. I blame

their "spiritual" advisors who have sucked on their grief instead of giving them the grief consoling they deserve and clearly need. It's 15 years and they're still stuck in phase 1 of grief. It's unbelievable.

[kslib]

70. Perhaps what they really need

is a good grief counselor. Maybe if they'd had some decent help in the beginning it would have been easier to let her go sooner.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. They aren't bad. It is only that just as Terri Schiavo suffered a

disorder, bulimia, her parents suffer a disorder called narcissism. Self-absorbed and controlling, they created the conditions that brought on their daughter's disorder. And when they couldn't get their way, their own disorder brought about this circus. They may truly believe that they love their daughter, but their actions show that they have been thinking only of themselves.

I pity them.

[stanwyck]

52. They let their grief become something else

Of course we understand that parents are devastated when their children die. We're the people who don't think war is glorious. We're not the "Bring It On!" macho warmongers.
The problem we're having is understanding how people of compassion would allow the suffering of their daughter to be prolonged. And why the parents have increasingly made their grief a commodity. Something to sell. Is this really about Terri's life? Or has the cause overtaken the person?
And why is there so little discussion of how Terri became comatose? Why are her parents not advocates for eating disorders? They could help other people. If they weren't so busy helping themselves.

[Ms Chicklet]

53. The Public Service Announcement I'd like to see

"Hello. I'm Bob Schindler and this is my wife Mary. We lost our daughter Terri to an eating disorder because we were manipulative, controlling jerks who put ourselves and our self-righteousness before our child. Learn from our mistakes."

[MXMLLN]

55. This is absolute crap ...

The Schindlers were nowhere around when Terri suffered her fatal collapse.

By then, Terri had been married to Michael Schiavo for 6 years.

The Schindlers were, in no way, responsible for her condition.

[Ms Chicklet]

61. I think they were

Bulemics like Terri tend to have parents like the scumbag Schwindlers - bullying, domineering, dogmatic and controlling.

[kslib]

69. Or they are surrounded by media images

of impossible beauty standards, and mean kids in school who tease them for being even a normal weight.

[stanwyck]

76. you missed my point

the parents could help others by speaking of the dangers of eating disorders. Terri was not the victim of a car accident. She had an eating disorder which brought on her coma. This should be a critical part of this sad story. Why Terri ended up in a hospital for 15 years.
(by the way, read up on eating disorders. There is a direct relationship between eating disorders and parental disapproval and expectations of the child).

[beam me up scottie]

122. Yes! Excellent point.

Our local npr station has been airing interviews with medical experts regarding eating disorders, recognizing the symptoms, recommended treatments, and of course the inevitable result if left untreated. They had a segment on how to raise children who have good self esteem and a positive body image- IMO, that was the most important.
Terri had already been fighting that battle long before she reached adulthood.

[kslib]

67. Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Hmm. They really could do some good if they put their efforts towards raising awareness about eating disorders. It might ease some pain on their part too.

[noonwitch]

54. I feel badly for them too-they lost their daughter

Caring for her had been an important part of their life.

Yes, they did create a circus, but they truly believed that trying to save her was the moral thing to do. I don't respect the vampires who latched on to their cause, but I do have sympathy for them.

[kslib]

65. me too.

[Junkdrawer]

56. Half right - accurately depicts Terri's mother...but everything I've read

suggests the father is a real piece of work.

[kslib]

66. Really?

I hadn't read anything about him specifically. I haven't been to DU for awhile, so I've been getting most of my news from the BBC. They've been relatively mum on the subject. Which makes sense.

[Junkdrawer]

77. Yep.

The father declared bankruptcy a year before all this started - and the controversy started when Michael Shiavo wouldn't split the $700k with the father. The father is now selling the database of all his contributers to other RW organizations. The father is taking money from Richard Mellon Scaife, Clinton's tormentor. etc. etc.

[kslib]

94. Huh.

That doesn't sound nice.

[tammywammy]

117. And don't forget

for a $100 "donation" you get a video of Terri in her bed.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/28/news_pf/State/Schiavo_case_has_myri.shtml

[tblue37]

103. kslib,

read my post below, about what they said they would be willing to do to her rather than let her die naturally.

[Mr_Spock]

58. We all feel for them - even if they have gone mad

It's not our fault that they went mad - I blame the damn fundies

[moobu2]

63. The Schindlers are extremely selfish and self centered.

[SW FL Dem]

72. As a mom, I had sympathy for the Schindlers until

they stated that they would do anything to save Terri, even if they knew she wouldn't want it. This wasn't her parents' decision to make. Yes, it would have been nice if the entire family could have been there, but I respect Michael's decision based on the entire circumstances.

[tblue37]

98. Yeah--even cutting off all 4 of her limbs if they became gangrenous.

See my post below for more details about what they said they would be willing to put her through rather than let her go.

[Fleshdancer]

73. The parents were used for political/religious grandstanding

If this happened my daughter, I would have an extremely hard time letting go if there was even a slight glimmer of hope for recovery. What I find the MOST unfortunate, are the manipulative assholes that swarmed around Terri's parents and fed them with fantasies of recovery.

Taking advantage of someone when they are truly at their weakest is sick and that's exactly what (I think) happened to them. Jeb Bush, Tom Delay, the pseudo doctors, the churches...they are to blame for this mess.

I have a hard time believing Terri's parents planned this whole circus and I fear the state of their well-being once their story has been fully used for political and religious advantage. The powerful people they THINK are their friends today will not be there tomorrow. Having to come to this horrible realization AFTER having to endure the loss of a child and surviving 15 long years of hell...well, may they somehow find the strength.

At the end of the day, my hope is that Michael Shiavo and the Schindlers can finally be at peace with one another.

[Lerkfish]

74. all of it, including your post and mine responding to it are out of order.

because, quite frankly, it is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. This is an intensely personal, difficult decision for anyone to make for a loved one.

That having been said, however, the media circus, the congressional involvement, the real fundie circus, the terrorist Randall Terry and his "we'll kill anyone to show how much we treasure life" crowd, all of it has been thrust in my face, whether I wanted to see it or not, so I relunctantly feel the need to comment on it.

But in a rational, reasonable, and respectful world, we'd have never heard about this one family's painful decision, rightfully so.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that world, we live in this one.

[progressivebydesign]

78. I agree with you.... grief does odd things to people.

I've avoided DU for weeks and weeks because of the vile attitude toward these people. I don't know all the facts in the case, no one really does. How can I hate them when they are motivated by love?

[pdxmom]

79. I'm sorry for their loss, but

they have only themselves to blame if they couldn't be at their daughter's side when she died.

Why should Michael lift one finger to accommodate these people? They have accused him of being a murderer and have tried to do everything they possibly could to present him in the worst possible light at every turn.

Don't pass judgment? The Schindlers should have thought of that years ago. I am very compassionate, but not when compassion isn't warranted or even wanted. What the Schindler's wanted was to use threats, character assassination and intimidation to have their way, with no thought of compassion for Michael.

[demo dutch]

80. You should feel bad for the parents, they lost a child. However

unfortunately, the parents dragged this into the public view, because they were unable to accept the reality. Poor judgment, bad advise and grasping at straws they lent themselves to manipulation by right wingers, and let them get away with all! Remember these are also the parents that are selling Terri's donor list to a marketing firm. It's all very sad!

[ultraist]

81. Why weren't her parents at the Hospice her last day?

Why did the recruit cult leader freaks like Randall Terry and "Father" Ramone to be their spokesmen?

Why did they LIE about Hospice, the greatest organization to deal with death we have?

Why did they LIE about Terri's condition, day after day to the national press?

Why did they make false accusations of Michael?

Why did they call an end of life decision "murder?"

Why did they surround their dying daughter with fundie nuts and cause the police to park a sniper on the roof, bomb sniffer dogs around the perimeters and an officer outside of Terri's door?

Is that showing respect and creating a peaceful, dignified dying process?

They had a lockdown in the Hospice yesterday because another fundie freak broke through the perimeter. The police officer had to go into Terri's room and stand by the door.

Those people not only created a horrific situation surrounding their daughter's death, but DISRUPTED all of the other Hospice patients. They trampled on things people consider sacred all to promote their whacked out fundie cult agenda.

I'm fucking sick of those "prolife" freaks that bomb abortion clinics, call end of life decisions or choice decisions "murder" and do other highly inappropriate things to push their religious ideology into our laws.

[Batgirl]

86. excellent points

It seems to be part of the liberal dna (speaking for myself here, too) to want to see the good in people and to come up with ways to "excuse" what in some cases is just plain bad behavior. This is sometimes a commendable trait. But at what point does it not hold up to reality?

I have kids, I know that feeling of overwhelming protectiveness, I know on a deep level that I would literally be capable of killing someone who threatened their lives. Under duress, I could and would do it.

But I also know that if any of them were brain dead, 15 years would be more than long enough for me to get my shit together and deal with it. People lose children, every day, to accidents and disease. To me, it would be the worst loss in the world. But somehow the vast majority of these people manage to maintain some semblance of dignity and self control.

I guess I'm out of patience for people who use this type of situation as an excuse to act out some grand "look at me I'm grieeeeeeeeving" emotional catharsis on the public stage. No matter how heinous their behavior, we're supposed to tolerate and accept it because they're very upset and can't be expected to act like grownups.

To excuse the type of behavior that's the equivalent of some asshole taking a dump on the lunch cart in the aisle of a passenger jet, that's not generosity of spirit. That's just encouragment for people who already feel entitled to act like psychos.

[ultraist]

90. Your statement nails it:

That's just encouragment for people who already feel entitled to act like psychos.

Exactly! And this is the BULLSHIT we see time and time again from the fundie cultists. They are ALLOWED to act inappropriately because of their "religious" devotion. Their OUTRAGEOUS behavior is excused. It's OK for them to call Gays sinners, curtail women's right to choice, teach creationism in our public schools, etc.

These fundie cultists are a threat to our civil liberties. I do not feel sorry for them.

[Lone Pawn]

83. They abused their daughter for 15 years after they drove her to bulimia.

They were the ones who constantly distributed movies and photos of her so everyone could gape.

[Bluebear]

92. "Maybe it makes me a bad Democrat, but I feel for Terri's parents"

Well, the opening statement certainly invites conversation. :crazy:

[kslib]

95. Have youSEEN some of the posts today

from people opening a hate fest on her parents? Then, when anyone posts in those threads that they feel bad for the parents (no, not just me; no I don't have a link but I've read them), or even express a view that we might not know the whole story or maybe we don't know what Terri's wishes were since they were not written down or any other glimmer of doubt, they are called freepers, fundies or worse. I'm not going to apologize for that statement. It was sarcastic. It was meant to be. I knew there would be flames, I just wanted people to know that there are always two sides. Only in DU would I be called a freeper/repub. because of expressing another side or compassion. For all of you wondering, yes I am a card-carrying Democrat working in a red office in a red state and going home to my red family every night proudly wearing my blue bracelet and driving my blue-bumper-stickered car. Yes, I'm for the right of every individual to choose to die naturally, I have a living will stating my intentions to not be kept alive in a PVS and I also support a woman's right to choose. Yes, I think that they probably should have allowed Terri the right to die a long time ago, assuming that was her wish and that she was really in a PVS. No, I don't think that because her parents fought for what they believed to be in the best interest of their daughter (and fought dirty), that they should be hated. Yes, I also believe that Michael is a good person, that he loved Terri and had her best interest in his heart. I believe that he, too, deserves love, empathy, compassion and support. Love, compassion and empathy is always more effective than hate and blind devotion to a cause with no regard to the emotions involved.

[seabeyond]

102. good for you, good for this post

i would like you to help me with one thing kslib, cause i do value and appreciate your words and experience, in so much red, you proudly wearing blue. i would never question your positions, nor your compassion

how do you reconcile these people being good people, knowingly accusing michael of murder to the nation, knowing they are inciting violence for him adn his family and children

this is where i have a challenge

all the rest, the belief in not pulling tube, in not allowing someone to die, i may not agree but i certainly respect anothers feelings on that. but i cannot reconcile these people accusing a man of murder, when they know it isnt so

i have no anomosity to these people and certainly not hate, i am not connected to them, i am not a part of the drama of this. causes me no pain. just on an intellectual discussion

[NC_Nurse]

115. Are you a parent?

Just wondering....

I am, and I find the Schindler's to be WAY out of bounds on their actions.

Just my opinion, of course. But I am a medical professional and I know a bit about eating disorders, dysfunctional families, and the science behind Terri's diagnosis.

As a parent, I let go of my children and their personal decisions when they become adults. I do not live for my children and I wouldn't want them to live through or for me.

Even aside from the medical evidence and inevitable slow decline and death of this woman, I would not interfere with the relationship of my child and their mate. Like it or not, the spousal relationship is the PRIMARY relationship. Not the parental, and not the offspring. If my children choose poorly, it is not my place to interfere, period.

[democracyindanger]

93. They're scumbags

They were willing to amputate her limbs and send her through heart surgery just to keep her around. They testified that they would keep her alive EVEN IF IT SHE HAD A LIVING WILL THAT SAID SHE WOULD WANT TO EXPIRE.

They're scumbags. Money grubbing scumbags.

[tblue37]

97. They may not be "bad" people, but they have done some very bad things.

Apart from the way they have slandered Michael Schiavo and encouraged their surrogates to slander him and put him at risk of being murdered by zealots, they have also exploited their daughter for fame and monetary gain. They sell videos of her, they have sold their donor list. Even Judge Greer concluded that the evidence suggests that what provoked the Schindlers to turn on Michael was their conviction that he should split the settlement with them.

During this past month, they did not consider that the crazies outside the hospice were making life hell for those 80 patients dying inside and for their family members who wanted to share their last days.

But all that aside, there is plenty of evidence that if they are not conniving an exploitative, they are certainly deranged by grief:

Jay Wolfson, guardian ad litemin 2003, wrote a report about Terri Schiavo's case for Gov. Bush. It reads in part:

Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive. Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open heart surgery.

There was additional, difficult testimony that appeared to establish that despite the sad and undesirable condition of Theresa, the parents still derived joy from having her alive, even if Theresa might not be at all aware of her environment given the persistent vegetative state. Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it. Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state.

My kids (now adults) are the center of my world. I can certainly understand finding it hard to let go of a beloved child. I hope I never have to be in that position, and I feel sorry for the Schindlers that they were. But their behavior really does go beyond te pale, and whether it is from calculation or grief-driven derangement, it is still outrageous.

[Ladyhawk]

101. Mrs. Schiavo reminds me of my mother.

Since I was without TV--might have been a blessing, eh?--I don't know too much about the circus surrounding Schiavo and the Schindlers, but the few times I heard Mrs. Schiavo speak, she sounded very controlling and I shuddered.

"Please give MY daughter back to ME (emphasis MINE, of course)." ;)

Does this sound like someone looking out for another's best interests?

Again, I don't know as much about the situation as some, but I figure 22 courts (is that the right number?) probably got it right...which reminds me: I have to get that living will written before my surgery date. :(

[Tansy_Gold]

111. Not Mrs. Schiavo --- Mrs. Schindler.

You might want to fix your post, ladyhawk

[Ladyhawk]

113. Yes, I did. Too late. It was a keyboard slippage...error...thingy... n/t

[Ladyhawk]

112. I meant Mrs. Schindler...D'OH! My bad.

I didn't come back in time to edit...rats. :(

[DemGirl7]

104. I agree with you...

I don't believe they are BAD people, they are delusional people. They didn't want to face up to the reality of it all, and I believe that they thought the people who they surrounded themselves with were helping them, but all they were doing was being used by the crazed religious zealots. I don't agree with what they did, but at the same time I'm not too fond of some of the actions of the husband either. To be honest, It was a very complex sitution, and both parties in this case are at fault.

[jefferson_dem]

106. I hate it but i have difficulty conjuring up much sympathy for them.

I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point down the road, they are smothered with regret that they spent their daughter's last days lobbing harsh political salvos in front of the circus freaks instead of privately comforting each other through the sadness, pain, and loss.

[Ironpost]

108. Not bad people, maybe bad parents, yes

[LittleClarkie]

114. It's not a Dem thing

It's a people thing. So it doesn't make you a bad Dem to say you feel sorry for the parents.

I think they saw what they wanted to see. Big, big denial. I don't hate them. I just wish the whole mess hadn't been dragged out into the public circus.

[FemaleDemfromMass]

116. I feel sorry for Michael

not for the parents. I truly believe Michael loved Terri deeply to go through what he has. Sorry, but selling a video tape for $100 donation is totally disgusting. I would Never Ever do to my daughter what they did to theirs. I'm also glad that they won't be able to continue their horrible side show at Terri's funeral. I really hope Terri is at peace at last, and Michael can have peace from Terri's family.

[Ms Chicklet]

118. Saw Terri's sister on TV

What a nasty piece of work. Mom and Dad thoroughly molded her. First she goes on about how threats and negative talk were against what Terri and her family stood for. Then she blabbers that Terri is free from those that were supposed to care for her but neglected her. Just like her parents - self-righteous and whiny.

Compare that to Michael Schiavo's attorney on Olbermann heaping praise on the Hospice staff for their kindness and compassion.

[mondo joe]

119. Should have been private but they made it a circus

Sorry - I have no more trouble judging them than I do GW Bush.

It should have been private but they made it a public issue, so public scrutiny is their fair return.

And I do not give a big fuck about being the "compassionate party" - I care about being the party of civil rights.