My freeper Dad said something the other day that just stunned me

[KitchenWitch]

I am not sure how the topic came up, but somehow slavery in the US was being talked about. My dad says, "I do not believe the slaves were treated as badly as they would have you think!"

:cry: :wow: :wtf: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Gods I get so sick of the revisionist history that these people come up with.

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. Regardless of HOW they may have been treated..

the mere fact that they were SLAVES, subject to being hunted and returned by force should they attempt to escape their servitude, seems abhorrent enough...

[KitchenWitch]

2. You would think so!

Christ on the half shell, that was among the stupidest statements I have ever heard, even coming from his PNAC ass.

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. Personally...

I think that a lot of conservatives today are pretty close to what I'd call "Neo-Confederates". That sort of attitude only serves to justify the label.

[annabanana]

28. thank you!

I have often thought that the venom of this crowd has it's roots in aristocracy of the confederacy.

[Carolab]

57. I just came back from vacation in Virginia.

Toured some old plantations, read all the civil war signs, and it was all too, too clear to me. The South holds a grudge against the North for winning the war, and the war was fought because of slavery. I don't understand how the black folks who live down there can stand it. The arrogance of these people.

Note to the South: YOU LOST. GET OVER IT.

[Bigmack]

64. South didn't lose...

... just look at the assholes that run(?) this country. Suthen boahs.. nearla ever wunov 'em.

Biggest mistake Lincoln made, forcing the south back into the union.

In many places in the south just before the war, blacks outnumbered whites by a good margin. Only a matter of time before the slaves TOOK their own freedom.

No Trent Lott, no Dick Armey, etc, etc.

[catzies]

50. Huh, notice how that's "NeoCON" for short, too? How conveenient.

n/t

[Kerrytravelers]

3. Here's a response:

Ask him how he'd like to be taken from his family, given a shak to share with countless other people, work a backbreaking job in the fields for no pay, be whipped at the leisure of his "master." Ask him how he'd like to be the property of someone one and not his own person. Ask him how he'd like to considered lass than 3/4 of a human being. Would he mind giving up his property and his right to vote? Would he like working from the time he was old enough to hold a tool to the day he died- no holidays, vacations or sick leave.

Ask him to answer those questions.

Good Lord.

[KitchenWitch]

5. He is such a Domionist that even those questions would not break through

It is really sad. He was a liberal until he sobered up 25 years ago.

[omega minimo]

8. Sounds like material for a book

or at least a great country song

Papa was so liberal
With libations in his cup
But he turned into a freeper
When he had to give it up


:bounce:

[KitchenWitch]

9. Good one

You could have a career as a songwriter!

[omega minimo]

14. Sign me up

Papa was so liberal
With libations in his cup
But he turned into a freeper
When he had to give it up

Back when he was drunk
You know he saw the light
Once he sobered up though
He leaned way too far far right

We worried in the old days
He might fall off of his stool
Nowadays we wonder how
He turned into such a tool

HIgher power grant the wisdom
To take one day at a time
Higher power drive the Devil
From my poor freeper papa's mind

:evilgrin:

[KitchenWitch]

15. That is fucking fantastic!

:yourock: :headbang:

[omega minimo]

17. Fanks fer the inspiration

And tell Papa:
If not for African Americans, the legacy of American (and beyond) music would be total shite!

All that beauty, spirit and soul came out of immense pain.

[KitchenWitch]

18. Indeed

artists, in general, are tortured souls!

[Swamp Rat]

23. Yes, I should be sleeping but I am compelled to make things like this:

[placton]

40. Not just music

African Americans BUILT much of the country, most of the South, the Capitol in Washington, the wealth of almost all the plantation owners. Then we get to other contributions, from peanut butter to airbrakes and the traffic light, to name a few.

[Swamp Rat]

22. Kick ass song!

Makes me want to break out my guitar!

:headbang:

[omega minimo]

24. Swamp Rat!

Comin from my Nawluns buddy, that be high praise.


It's gotta little sink-oh-pay-shon-- mebbe I'll give it a Dr. John swing thang!

[Swamp Rat]

25. Way'at omega minimo!

Dat's what I'm talkin' 'bout!... Gettin' fonkeh brah, wit da Doctah!... A little "Hey, Hey, Hey.., Hey Pocky Way!" d'be cool too... :D

[omega minimo]

34. Grew up wit "Right Place Wrong Time"

then saw him in Clint Eastwood's film on da blues. WAAAAAAYYY impresstimicated. Too cool.

[XemaSab]

44. Brilliant

n/t

[stlsaxman]

62. Record it and send a copy to Steve Earl for his AAR show-

"The Revolution Starts Now". He just might dig it!

Nice job!

:yourock:

[Jamastiene]

27. Offer him a drink

Maybe that'll work. If he won't take it, spike his drink.
;0

[monobrau]

6. Slavery saved them from their idle nature

Or so the argument went back in the "good old days".

[omega minimo]

7. Sorry about your Dad

but your graphic is hilarious....


So, does he think slavery is another word for "immigration"? Did his great-great grandparents get ripped from their homes, shipped like cargo across the seas and sold into indentured servitude? Or maybe arrive through Ellis Island?

Was his family allowed to travel and live together intact? Or were they ripped from each other and SOLD away from relatives?

Does he KNOW any black people?

Good luck, KitchenWitch!

:)

[Tactical Progressive]

10. Ask him if it would be OK if some rich racist

legally comes and takes every single thing he's ever earned in his entire life for his own?

And that's not counting the license to physically force him into whatever labor suits his needs, regardless of the methods he feels are needed to effect such cooperation from a genetic inferior such as your dad.

With his free room and board, he ought not to feel as if he's being treated 'that badly'. I'm sure he'd agree.

[KitchenWitch]

11. no doubt,

I guess he thinks the slaves should have been happy to be there!

:nuke:

[Tactical Progressive]

13. He's probably thinking that since it wasn't a constant

brutality of whipping that it wasn't as horrendous as the worst of what you see dramatized in movie history. In that sense I'm sure there were tens of millions of slaves that lived physically non-brutalized lives.

But what is overlooked is the lifelong inequity of not being your own person, of not having the rights to the fruits of your efforts. That's why I said think about giving up everything you've ever earned to someone else just to get a taste of the incredible unfairness of even a well-treated slave. It's something that a Republican might understand.

[countryjake]

12. That's common amongst them...just as many "white slaves" too...

is another thing some are spouting nowadays. There must have been some sweeping directive handed down a few years ago, to absolve any guilt & give them ammunition against blacks, cause I've been hearing this quite alot, also.

[MadHound]

30. Actually at one time in our countries history,

White slaves were just as prevalent as black slaves, in fact more so. And the white slaves were treated just as badly as black slaves. Little known fact, over half the people who came to America during the seventeenth century were brought over as slaves, black and white, in fact, mostly white.

What put a halt to this was Bacon's Rebellion in 1676. Blacks and whites, who up until that point had always hung together since being slaves and of the lower class they had more in common with each other than with the ruling elite, made common cause in rising up and attempting to seize their freedom and power from the ruling elite. Several rich whites were killed, mobs were in the street, the ruling order was threatened. And something was.

After the rebellion was brutally put down, the ruling elite realized that they needed to do something to prevent this from happening again, so they went with the old divide and conquer strategy. They started easing up the treatment of bond slave whites, in fact freeing many of them, and eventually completely wiping out the class of the white indentured slave/servant. They also deliberately fostered racism between these two groups of people, in order to divide the lower class against itself.

And it worked, quite effectively, for over three hundred years. However in the twentieth century something started changing. The civil rights movement started opening eyes on both sides of the racial divide. And as more and more people reached out across that divide to make common cause with a group of people that they had more in common with than the upper class of their own race, the ruling elite was again threatened. With the specter of racism quickly losing its power to divide and conquer, the ruling elite searched for another wedge issue to keep the masses divided. They found such an issue in religion.

Until the seventies, fundie Christians were a group apart. They didn't participate in politics, for that was a matter of the world, not a matter of God. The ruling elite and their minions in the Republican party started cultivating this group of people in the early seventies, bringing them into the national political debate. They experienced their first taste of victory in 1980 with the election of Reagan, and they haven't looked back. Thus, while racism starts to fade as a wedge issue, religion now arises to keep the lower classes at each other's throats. It is time that we started reaching across that divide, and educate our fundie brothers and sisters on how they are being used. The Terri Schiavo case provides an excellent opportunity. So rather than scorn your fundie neighbor, get to know them. Yes, I know that there are some issues that you won't see eye to eye on, but you will be amazed at how much you actually have in common.

For further reading on these and other little known topics in American history, I recommend Howard Zinn's book, The People's History of the United States.

[tammywammy]

48. Yes, I'm white and I have white ancestors that were slaves

My family was Arcadian, and many Cajun people were slaves. My mom discovered the slave history when she used to do genealogy.

[GoBlue]

16. Apparently he believes the slaves are ...

still alive they're just 'free' now.

Edit: I am terrible with there, their, they're.

[komplex]

19. This is why we have to be intellectually rigorous and honest...

Because every little exaggeration will come back to bite us on the ass. And when you are dealing with people who can only think in binary, it's will cost you more than anything you can gain.

Your father is right, it wasn't as bad as it was written by Uncle Tom's Cabin, Roots, et al, but that doesn't mean it wasn't good. In my class in Race and America almost 15 years ago (yikes), we were told the more tabloid like charges against Slavery did not occur often enough to be considered normal. We have stories of slaves working on the side to buy their freedom, Able to marry slaves outside of their master's house, beatings were very rare, etc.

These facts in no way absolves us from the evils of slavery, but it does undermine our long term goals.

[Bridget Burke]

26. "Intellectual rigor"--such a manly phrase.

What were the texts used in the class you took? I'd love to see some of the 15 year old books showing that slavery wasn't really all that bad.

[komplex]

41. Don't Think Binary...

You are falling into the same trap freepers live in. Neither I, nor any of the Books I've read have come even close to saying that "slavery wasn't really all that bad."

To say that some of the charges against slavery were over-exaggerated isn't the same as saying Slavery is good.

One of the Books: Red white & black,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0139567569/qid=1112324321/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-1951601-1983015?v=glance&s=books

Can't find the other books, either out of print or can't remember the right titles.

I'll try to make it simple for you.

Imagine we hear a report of a soldier losing his arms and legs in a battle. Pretty horrific, I think we can all agree. But what if we later find out that he instead of losing arms and legs, he lost his legs and broke his arms. Now, can we agree that compared to the earlier report, his injuries isn't as bad as what we were led to believe? But just because his injuries aren't as bad as the earlier report, does that mean that he doesn't really have it "all that bad?" Of course not.

Now, let us say the person who first gave us the story of him losing his arms and legs did so for a social/political agenda, a neutral critical thinker will tend to think that subsequent reports contain exaggerations.

[loudsue]

58. Nice try, komplex....but don't go there

unless you've been a slave in the South. Working in the fields from sun up to sun down, chiggers (red bugs), fleas, mosquitos, and HEAT and HUMIDITY until you melt on the inside. The ones who worked those fields helped to build this country to what it is. And THEY paid DEARLY, while the rest of us wallow in the fruits of their labor. And until you've had your children, or your WIFE, "sold" out from under you, don't tell me how "they weren't treated so bad".

Tell it to the ones who have been there. They'll make short work of your ass.

Slavery is bad, mmmkay?


:kick:

[komplex]

63. Humour Me...

Where in the hell did I say Slavery is good?

[Divernan]

20. Bet he just looooooves Condoleeza!

Seriously, I see a deep racial hatred of middle easterners by Bushbots - they say things about just blowing them all up - and just give me a stupid, silent stare when I ask what about the Christian arabs.

I have always seen racists as people with such a low sense of self worth that they have to have another large group which they can look down upon with no rational basis - only the color of their skin.

[KitchenWitch]

21. my dad's hatred of muslims (arabs) is unreal

he is a fundie, and believes Islam is the devil incarnate.

[KT2000]

29. RW mantra

that has been picking up steam. Recall seeing a writer on C-Span's Books saying just the same thing. It probably hit the airwaves so listeners would pick it up and run with it. Looks like it worked.

Would love to see how many RWers would sign up to be "well treated slaves."

[NNN0LHI]

31. Maybe in his later years perhaps while in a nursing home...

...he will have some black women caring for him and he will mention this to them without thinking? And then your dad may find out what urine tastes like in his Wheaties for breakfast? The Lord works in mysterious ways.

I suspect something similar may happen to my racist dad too?

Don

[fasttense]

32. I'm probably about your Dad's age and I was taught in

high school that the slaves weren't treated so badly. He is probably just quoting what we were taught. The logic behind this statement went like this: When you own a car or other property, you don't go abusing it. You take care of it because you want to keep it in good shape. So most Masters didn't abuse their slaves because they took good care of their property. When I told my mother this. She hit the roof. Luckily she is a spunky Democrat who can see through the institutional lies. How would you like to be treated like a car or piece of property? It was probably a whole lot worse than we think. Your father probably didn't have someone like my Mom to teach the truth.

[Ganja Ninja]

33. Time to put Dad in a discount old folks home.

:argh:

[Arugula Latte]

35. I remember going to Monticello (Jefferson's home)

They talked about how, well, yes, Jefferson owned slaves, but he treated them relatively well, and gosh, he didn't reaaaaally want to own them, but it was kind of the thing that people did then (or words to that effect). :eyes:

[realFedUp]

36. Walking in someone else's shoes, might save some souls...nt

[KitchenWitch]

37. Word!

Some people seem to be totally incapable of walking in another's shoes...therein lies the problem.

Being able to walk in another's shoes to me is the definition of compassion. Not sure I know any wingnuts that tout "compassionate conservatism" that are able to live that!

[Zorra]

38. That is one of the stupidest, most ignorant statements ever made. n/t

[ICantBelieve]

39. That's the way I feel when I talk to my dad too n/t

[Arkana]

42. He's your FATHER?

Your mom musta had some STRONG liberal genes in her to overcome that.

[KitchenWitch]

46. My entire childhood he WAS a liberal

He is also an alcoholic. He sobered up and morphed into a fundie freeper.

[murdoch]

43. Slaves were treated differently at different times

When African-American workers were forcibly brought to the states initially, they worked under the laws applying to indentured servants. Eventually the laws changed so they and their children went to working in perpuity, becoming slaves. Workers were worked to death until a new batch was brought in.

After the abolition of the slave trade by 1808 (which was prompted more by England than the US), slaves were treated much better than they had been previously, as their value increased.

Then with the Emancipation Proclimation, African-American workers were no longer slaves.

With the civil rights movement, black workers were allowed to vote, ride on any buses and go to any school, marry who they chose and so forth.

Right now they're fighting to, as Henry Louis Gates Jr. says, get on an even economic plane as white workers.

This seems to be how these things go - things get worse, then they begin getting better. The same happened to what most of us are, people who work for a wage. In the early days things weren't so bad, but in say England, the Poor Laws, the encirclement of the commons and so forth caused hours worked to increase more and more. Eventually workers began organizing (which was completely illegal at the time, nowadays it's just partially illegal) and hours worked began decreasing.

As far as the blacks - at each stage it was said they were now free and the next step was unnecessary. When the slave trade ended it was said their condition had gotten better as now they were free. The same thing was said after the Civil War. Which is the same message being heard now as blacks are struggling economically to be at the same level as non-blacks. We hear the same thing people heard at the end of the slave trade when it was said they would be treated well now, the same thing after the end of the Civil War that they were now free.

[sellitman]

45. I bet he feels the same way about the Jews

I hope you can find other things to talk about with your Dad. Politics should be off base.

[KitchenWitch]

47. I always try to steer the subject away from politics

although I disagree vehemently with his views, I respect his right to have them. He does not show me the same respect. Most of the time I assure that it is a politics free zone, but every once in awhile he sneaks one in there.

[caligirl]

56. I have parents like that too. They are controllers, and there is no room

for thinking or being different, all must be alike or else. Marginalizing. Allowing our kids to discuss differing opinions is important to their developing their minds and to them becoming independent thinking adults. My husband and I took a different course with our kids. We want to heqar what they think. Our favorite thing to do is to go out to dinner with them, we enjoy wonderful talks on many subjects, but especially their ideas on politics. Our kids know more than most of their teachers on politics.

[KitchenWitch]

60. My 14 year old has well developed political views also

He disagrees with me, for example, about the handling of the whole unmentionable situation at that hospice in Florida. He also does not have all the information, but it is a-ok for him to disagree. I respect his right to do so.

[caligirl]

61. This approach pays off well in high school and college.. My oldest

is a student at UC, majoring in the the philosophy of politics with plans for grad school(doctorate) in this area or law school. He isn't fooled by anyone. My younger is a h.s junior who takes AP history and does well in it. His teacher says he has a better grasp of history than most. Although it could be that dad is a world History, military history grad.

We have always talked to them not at them, and always allowed room for them to explore their own ideas and views. Best of luck to you.

[jdj]

49. um, did you tell him the slaves are all dead?

I guess the founding fathers were just whiny bitches about the English, too.

[barb162]

51. I bet he meant if you beat them too much they couldn't work 18

hours the next day for nothing

[Iris]

52. Who's "they"? Hmmm????

Does he mean the people who were slaves here in America and are now dead? Does he mean African Americans who are alive today? Does he mean the 'liberal media" or just "liberal elites" in general?

What a fucking stupid thing to say.

[caligirl]

53. some info on the power white slave owners used on black slaves(sex)

Sex was not just for personal gratification. It was the way the white males controlled slaves in all sort of ways'
Fears of black male sexuality recurred long after the end of slavery and provided one of the excuses in the American South for lynchings throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.

The issue of black-white sexuality touched on deep social and personal fears which existed long before Atlantic slavery. But slavery gave such fears substance and purpose. In a world where slaves were dehumanised as chattels it was inconceivable to admit the possibility that the most intimate human relations could develop between black and white.

There was also a collective fear that black men would revenge themselves of the indignities heaped on their womenfolk by raping white women at any given moment.

White tension over slave revolts and discontent was fuelled by sexual fears and fanned by rumour and gossip. In reality, such sexual violations rarely took place. But the existence of such fear provides a powerful indicator of the deep anxiety about black-white sexual relations.

Latest worries of black rape endured long after the end of slavery. In the American South, it provided a recurring excuse for lynching throughout the 19th century and even as late as the 1960s. It had in effect become a 'folk panic', justifying violence and humiliation against black men on both sides of the Atlantic.

What lay behind much of this aggression was a simple matter of power. For centuries, whites had exercised extraordinary power of life and death over millions of Africans and their descendants. Sexual dominance and exploitation was only one aspect of a much broader and violent exploitation.

Contemporary attitudes about sexual relations between black and white have been forged from these and other complex historical forces. In fact, without confronting this legacy, is it even possible to free ourselves from the taint of the past?

[Book Lover]

54. Um, excuse me, but

doesn't that bill of sale with their name on it constitute a bad enough treatment?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Bad things about being a slave, even with a "kind" master

1. Being kidnapped from your home and sent across the ocean, never to see your family or friends again, chained in the hold of a ship shoulder to shoulder with other unfortunates.

2. Being sold at a public auction with people pawing over you, checking out your body, your "fitness" for work. Having no control over whom you're sold to or whether the new master buys your spouse and children too.

3. Having to work hard at whatever your master told you to work at, knowing that no matter how hard you worked, you would always be a slave and your children would always be slaves.

4. Knowing that your master could do literally anything he wanted to you: beat you, work you to death, use you sexually, brand you, even use you in medical experiments.

Sounds like fun, huh? I'm sure there were plenty of volunteers for positions as slaves. :sarcasm:

[Catherine Vincent]

59. Is he white? If he is, I'll bet he wouldn't say that to a black person.