My Little War on Religion

[Eloriel]

Starts now.

I am not myself Christian, tho I was raised Catholic. If pushed, I have some very nasty things to say about various people in the Church, the Church itself through the centuries, etc. The Church has hurt a lot of people, and that's just fact.

However, typically I do not like to bash those who believe in and find comfort in Christianity as some DUers do. Christianity is not MY way, but I'm okay with the fact that you may choose differently. You're different from me, your spiritual needs are different from mine.

I am NOT okay, however, with having other people's religion forced upon me, thrown in my face, shoved down my throat. I just don't want to hear about your religion. If I'm curious about it, I'll ask. (Don't hold your breath because I consider the subject roughly equivalent to your sex life: it's your business, I don't want to hear about it so don't bother me with any of the sordid details.)

As a strong First Amendment supporter, I definitely don't want anyone's religion dragged into my politics and government, either, just as the Founding Fathers amply provided for.

And I damned well don't want yours or anyone else's religion in my left-leaning political discussions either.

DU has been replete with religious discussions for some weeks now and I've had enough of it. No, I can't stop you from posting about it, but I sure as hell can hide your threads and put YOU on Ignore, and that's what I'm going to start doing starting RIGHT NOW. Consider yourself warned.

And oh, btw, there is a perfectly valid place for your religious conversations, more places on DU than I had thought:

Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=275

Jewish Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=316

Prayer Circle Group (non-denominational)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=237

And in the Non-Political Forums:
Religion & Theology
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

IMO, religion is well-represented WITHOUT having to drag it into this secular, POLITICAL discussion area. But if you must, you'll go on my Ignore list. No exceptions.

[sazemisery]

1. Bravo and Ditto

[Warpy]

2. Thank you.

[politicat]

3. agreeing.

There may not be many people to talk to after a while, but it sounds good ti me.

You go, girl!

[Inland]

4. Not a problem, really.

I don't think anyone feels compelled to discuss religion more than you just did. I don't.

In the wind up to declaring this a poltical forum, you let a little discussion of religion slip in.

I hope that you remember that when somebody else also finds a tangential relevance of their religious opinion to politics.

[Eloriel]

8. tangential doesn't bother me

really, it doesn't. It's what feels like an all-out ASsAULT by the religiously inclined.

Seriously, between the cable news channel openly airing religious content masquerading as "news," and the overabundance of overtly religious content HERE, I feel like I'm puroposefully but forcibly being desensitized in preparation for theocracy.

[Carni]

20. Thank you for mentioning the news channel's *religious* assaults lately!

I was beginning to think I was the only one who noticed it!

for two weeks I have been finding myself getting more and more angry and alarmed with the tone of the idiot news media.

Praying, religion and faith are not exactly newsworthy so what is this big push by the media all about?

I think you are right we are being dumbed down for a conversion to a theocracy.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. You still watch the news?

I can't even watch the news...it angries up the blood! :) However, I have noticed that some scripted shows are sneaking in some right-wing and religious ideologies. That scares me!

[Carni]

47. I don't actually watch it

I have been making websites for extra money lately and I keep it on all day in the background--trust me you don't want to tune in because it is indeed scary!

[bonito]

16. Really

alot of us just want what is right for our world and we find resonance with something more than ourselves that is felt,as right, and yes for every one. If I keep love as my guide post in life how could I offend you?

[Eloriel]

26. If that's your religion, and you insist on talking about it here, it's

plenty offensive.

This, btw, is the kind of response I'd expect from those who insist on pushing if not actually violating the boundaries of polite secular discourse: "oh, poor me, how could you be offended by my little personal beliefs, they're so innocuous..."

Whatever. Prepare to go on Ignore, that's all.

[bonito]

34. I can't cover your eyes,only you can.

[seemslikeadream]

5. Thanks Eloriel

:hi:

[hiley]

6. Could not agree more

and thanks for saying it so well.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Shame upon you!

:) You forgot... Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Group.

I certainly don't want to tell you what to do, but if you "ignore" every poster who relates to religion in the main political forums, you might miss something important when they post something unrelated to religion. What about "hiding" the offending threads? Just a suggestion.

Of course, I was teasing you about forgetting the Pagan room. :)

[Eloriel]

12. I left it out on purpose --

I am NOT finding my pagan friends inundating this board. It's the Christians. THEY'RE the ones who are finding some compulsion to wave their prayer shawls and such all over the place, and they're the ones to whom this is addressed.

Believe me, I didn't forget you at all. :-)

[Behind the Aegis]

18. YEA!

We often get left out. :( So, I was just razzing you! Although, I haven't seen too many of us Jews waving our Talirot and Yarmulkes around either! :) Not our style!

However, I do understand where you are coming from. It is become somewhat exhausting saying the same thing over and over and still not being heard.

[OrlandoGator]

9. It's important to differentiate religion and faith.

Religion is the poisonous "us vs. them" team sport mentality that pervades history. Faith is deeply personal and private beliefs on what is beyond our cognizant awareness.

[Eloriel]

14. AFAIC that's a difference without a distinction

IOW: As I'm reading what you wrote, I probably don't want to hear about your FAITH either.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I think you are right

I can imagine how rankled you must feel when threads that should be in a specific forum and put in General Discussion.

But, out of curiosity-do you think threads about counteracting the Religious Right should also be placed in these fora?

[Eloriel]

17. Probably not. Those are political, not religious in nature BUT

whether or not their initiators go on Ignore will be determined on a case-by-case basis, depending on the content of the OP itself.

[Hugin]

11. Okay then...

Not sure where "General Discussion" becomes "Political
Discussion" tho...

You might want to hang in "General Discussion: Politics".
It's a more specific forum.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=132

[dweller]

13. Adding you to my

buddy list, those inclined to think for themselves, dreaming and doing their own valid reality.

:thumbsup:

dp

[DistressedAmerican]

15. I began letting them have it in earnest today!

I can't turn around these days without being hit in the face with these people's beliefs. I don't shove my atheism down their throats, I'd appreciate is Christianity wasn't shoved down mine!

Here's a few of my latest:

[Eloriel]

21. All are great but I LOVE your 10 commandments

Well done!

[DistressedAmerican]

23. As I Finished My Last Post I Opened My Mail. There They Are Again!

Just got fundraising crap from "The Interfaith Alliance" with a picture of Walter Cronkite on the envelope next to this quote "For years I have kept my opinions to myself. But, now I must speak out."

No you freaking don't. Keep it to yourself. No one fucking cares! At least it cost them the postage.

Stop plaguing ME! I do not believe in your invisible man in the sky!

[DistressedAmerican]

31. OK, I Take It Back!

Opened the envelope on the way to the trash and it is from a liberal church that can no longer keep their mouths shut about their religion being hijacked by the religious right.

A quote on why he can no longer keep his opinions to himself: "That's because I am deeply disturbed by the dangerous and growing influence of people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell on our nation's political leaders."

I admin that I judged the book by the cover in this one. I won't give them money, as I firmly disagree with their underlying belief in God. However, those of you that do should consider it.

www.interfaithalliance.org

[Eloriel]

38. That's better

Yes, the Interfaith Alliance is great and so is Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, (www.au.org ), which is headed up by Rev. Barry Lynn, also an attorney.

And btw, I don't have QUITE the animus toward believers that you do -- , I just don't want to have to put up with them (and you might find my own beliefs objectionable too since I'm not an atheist myself). :-)

[lastliberalintexas]

32. Actually, the Interfaith Alliance

mostly fights *against* religion invading the political world. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

19. why does anyone care if you ignore ...........? n/t

[Eloriel]

27. They very well may not, but for some people

being "disappeared" in that way is the ultimate insult.

[seabeyond]

29. i dont take it personally n/t

[datasuspect]

22. with you 1000%

bravo

[Donailin]

24. does that include my sigline?

I dunno, I'm not sure what you mean about putting on ignore those who bring religion into a debate. I can't count how many times I've used the correct interpretation of the gospels in arguing against any number of Bush policies, and how dems need to return the real meaning of the gospel message into sound policy -- looking first after the downtrodden, the poor, the hungry, as well as being good caretakers of the earth and being against all greed. stuff like that. All of these principles happen to be in line the principles of all atheists I know. Can you clarify?

On edit: because Bush has brought a major religion into the debate in the first place, the hipocracy has to be pointed out in religious terms, no?

[Eloriel]

28. I've got sig lines turned off so I don't know

as for the rest of your post, I'll just say again: it depends. Normally I don't mind "tangential" recitations of religious hypocrisy or even of Christ's teachings (reminders to take care of the poor, etc.) in threads, I mostly mind whole religion discussions -- but if someone goes over the top and that's (nearly) all I see from them, they'll absolutely land on Ignore.

I would say to my wonderfully LIBERAL Christian friends: Your religious beliefs are still a personal matter. Keep it so.

[Ron Green]

30. Maybe something is not so "private and personal" if it supports so much

public discourse. I hear you saying that you don't want anyone evangelizing in your face, and I think most people at DU agree with that. However, it's evident that the discussion ABOUT religion, faith, spirituality, and so forth is something that many reasonable people care about. Simply saying that a belief system is "private and personal" doesn't look at the whole picture, because our society and all societies throughout history have their shared beliefs, some more secular and some more sacred. I think that DU'ers in their natural bent towards learning and curiosity will entertain challenging ideas to a greater extent than will right wing types, who are often smugly sure of their position.

Anyway, here's hoping that the beady-eyed, sweaty-upper-lipped ones stay out of your face!

:-)

[Eloriel]

36. Brrrzzzt ! Nope, sorry, you don't get it.

Religion is private and personal -- and should be kept so EXCEPT among those who MUTUALLY agree to discuss it. That's one reason why religion has always been one of those things that we just don't discuss in public...which is precisely what the religious right wants to change.

And YOU are on their side. You seem to think that because YOU want to discuss it, everybody should agree with you and allow you to discuss it. YOUR wishes trump everyone else's.

Like I said: brrzzzzt!

[Donailin]

39. Hmm, this seems over the top

that was civil discourse the poster just made. You just bit his head off.

I think you're mad, but religion isn't what you're mad it. Something else is going on here. In any case, good luck to you.

[Ron Green]

44. When I was a kid, I always heard that religion and politics should never

be discussed. As I grew up, I wondered why that was, and figured out that these are the two topics that affect people's lives the most, and carry the most difficult baggage with them, so most people would rather not "go there."

Here at DU and other places, we freely discuss politics, but we're having a difficult time with the other biggie, and that's understandable. However, religion is, along with philosophy, a supremely important topic for discussion, and in my opinion must be examined.

For you to say that I'm on their side means that you think that the DISCUSSION of religion is tantamount to the PRACTICE of religion. Not true.

One need not be afraid of ideas. If they're bad ideas, like those of the wacko Bible-thumpers, they'll not stand the scrutiny of open discussion. But to simply put people on "ignore" seems like putting your fingers in your ears.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Thank You. I have to put up with the crap from my neighbors too!

:cry: The picture of Jesus/Easter Yard sign IS STILL UP IN MY NEIGHBOR'S YARD. :grr: I am SO sick of having EVERYONE elses religion shoved down MY throat and in my face....sick, sick, sick of it. Cars with their Jesus fish emblems, cars with their praying kid at the cross decal, cars with I love Jesus, yard signs with "Please vote pro-life" and A HUGE, probably 18", car decal I saw the other day..."JESUS IS LORD" GEEZUSFUCKINGKRIST! Enough already! KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. It's a PRIVATE thing. IMCPO.

[Eloriel]

35. Another thought

SOME of us have been harmed by religion(s) of various types and in various ways. It's called spiritual abuse and some of us are keenly aware of it, others not so much. Some of us care deeply, others don't seem to so much.

As I mentioned in my OP, the Church has been the instrument of a lot of suffering over these 20 centuries, and some of it has been quite personal. Please remember, this spiritual abuse has come at the hands of people who purport to speak for and represent God on Earth.

I count myself among those who have been spiritually abused (tho sort of in the generic, not as much personally) and the rage I feel over it is immense. As a woman and feminist, I count myself also among the spiritually and otherwise abused by the Church -- and WILL until women can be priests, use birth control and so forth.

So anyway, having the Christian religion (or indeed any religion) waved in our faces and shoved down our throats without our prior consent again and again is very much akin to making a child face his molester again and again or a woman face her rapist again and again.

[Donailin]

42. Thanks

for the clarification. I knew there was something else at work here that you didn't mention in your OP. You were abused, religion was the tool. Religion was not the abuser, just the tool. The distinction is important.

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. My parent's church damn near bankrupted them.

They had to QUIT the church because they couldn't afford to go anymore! EVERY time they entered the doors of that church the minister was asking for $$$$. They went to church 3-4 times a week. They felt GUILTY if they didn't "give", so they left and never looked back. The minister drove a very nice Mercedes. :grr: My parents are retired and couldn't afford what they DID give, but gave because they felt they had to. It was a "Church of God" church.

It makes me think of Jim and Tammy Baker. :(

[progressoid]

37. Ah, and my fave...

The atheists and agnostics group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

However, I think that the DU moderators (and members) are going to have their work cut out for them. Keeping politics and religion at a polite distance is unfortunately fading quickly. Respect for others religion (or lack of religion in my case) is also a thing of the past.

IMO, what is happening here on DU is systematic of the US at large. Bush's "morality" voters, the gay marriage amendment, ten commandments displays, Teri Schaivo, etc., all connected by the thread of religion. Like the political atmosphere outside of DU, religion is seeping into all aspects of our lives - especially politics.

What used to be mildly irritating itch is now a full fledged infection.

How will we liberals address this?

[patricia92243]

40. Is that a threat or a promise?

[understandinglife]

41. Most excellent. James Madison would have been proud of you.

James Madison (1751-1836) is often referenced as the "Father of the Constitution." He is the primary contributor to the structure of the First Amendment.

Two, of many, many quotes for those needing a refresher:

Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).

The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity (Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec 3, 1821).

www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[warrior1]

46. heck I know I'm

sick and damn tired of it too!

Well said.

[More Than A Feeling]

45. Before you put me on ignore, take a look at my privacy thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3389398

Afterwards, ignore away!

[Moderator]

48. Locking

Inflammatory topic; also has points better raised in the Ask The Administrators forum.