BBV / CA Recall - Uh oh -- I just heard the set up for an Arnold win

[Eloriel]

Luntz on Hardball just now making this prediction: "Whatever Schwarzenegger polls on election day, he's going to get 3 to 4% higher" in the actual election because people are so fired up and want change.

They won't be able to do is just by voting machines, I don't think. But watch out for ALL sorts of vote suppression and vote fraud. These guys are getting really good at it, you know.

And Luntz playing the race card. Harping on Davis's and Bustamante's "support" of "illegal immigrants." Disgusting.

Eloriel

[bigendian]

1. This election is so hyped!

I predict massive turnout that overwhelms the system especially in those districts that are ill-prepared. Florida Fiasco meet California Cock-up.

[Classical_Liberal]

7. Which will cause what?

The election of a prochoice republican, which is what Davis is?

[mitchtv]

46. time to stop this anti davis pro arnold BS

.

[Classical_Liberal]

50. No it is time to stop the scare mongering

by claiming Arianna is spoiling a more progressive candidate than Arnold. Davis isn't a progressive and Arnold isn't all that conservative.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16751

[Classical_Liberal]

51. I am not pro Arnold. I am pro Arianna

so this is another insinuation that I am a freeper.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. Do you live here? Can you vote for her? She hasn't called Davis a Repub.

[Classical_Liberal]

68. no, I don't live there, but I have followed Cal politics

since the energy crisis, because of my interests in the effects of deregulation. I think he is a pub though.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. So you don't live here but you think you know what is best for us?

That is quite elitist. If you have been following California since the energy crisis then you should know the absolute WORST thing any other state could live with is Davis getting recalled since he is the ONLY ONE who has brought to the public the actual TRUTH about how the game was rigged against the state.

Please...shoot yourself in the foot in your own state and leave mine alone.

[Classical_Liberal]

73. He certainly isn't the only one who rang alarm bells

I was reading LAWeekly at the time. He did very little to solve the energy crisis. He had an opportunity to allow California Power and Light go bankrupt and reregulate the energy industry and bailed them out instead. That is why you have deficites and the threat of Enron manipulating your bills is not over.

As for my interests in other states. Well I want Texas to boot the Bush whore Governer they have right now in favor os someone better and I'll bet you do too.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. LA Weekly is mostly a right wing mag..of course they would say that

Since the legislature would actually have to reregulate and the exact extent was not known, I fail to see how Davis could have accomplished that. BTW, What state are you in?

[Classical_Liberal]

87. If LaWeekly is right wing so is Salon ROTFLOL!

www.laweekly.com for anyone interested. Read Harold Myerson and Mark Cooper.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. Sorry, I thought you were referencing a different magazine

Regardless...help Republicans all you want. It is your right to do so. Why don't you come here and campaign for Arnold? That is who you are helping?

[Classical_Liberal]

94. No I am helping Arianna

and if it tips the balance toward either Arnold or Davis who is not one bit more liberal than Arnold, "Who cares?"

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

70. I don't give a crap whether moderate republican Arnold

wins over moderate Dem Davis. California polling tells me the voters are far more progressive than both of them. I would like Arianna to win there. I want progressives to win, so shoot me. I sent an alert on you too.

[cally]

77. I guess you don't care if the Chimp

stays is office, or not. Can you really not see that this is an attempt to steal the election. Or maybe that's what you want.

[Classical_Liberal]

88. What does this have to do with the Chimp staying in office

?

[mitchtv]

2. they are already supressing the vote

in Monterey co. and some others in the foothills ( i think Yuba is another) by paring down the polling stations. This has been ok's by D.O.J.It's time to look into a Texas style redistricting as revenge if at all possible.

[nbsmom]

8. SIGH

The fairness of the election (votes not being counted in punchcard counties and precincts, particularly in minority communities already S T R E T C H E D for $$$$) is still in the courts.

No, it's not over 'til it's over...and I'm praying that the courts make a decision that would delay the recall until at least November or (better yet) the March primary.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/09/12/MN302474.DTL

Yes, the DOJ has weighed in, but the argument has also been placed in front of the last (?) round of courts, and the argument is essentially the same as FL 2000...votes will not be counted because the punchcard system is outdated and flawed (not to mention a ballot that is inherently confusing, but also printed in multiple languages and different alphabetical order by assembly district).

You pick the problem...if the election is held on October 7, there will be counting for months, not to mention all of the $$$$ that's already been pissed away on political advertising and wasted on printing up ballots...with the end result probably favoring Ahnuld...(one example is Ahnuld's placement at the top of the ballot in a high Re:puke: assembly district like Darryl Issa's district in No. San Diego).

[mitchtv]

9. more important is reduction of polling stations

resulting in lines, inconvience, confusion, errors at said stations

[maggrwaggr]

63. That's a great idea!

We'll use their own dirty tricks against them.

[hunter]

122. You don't know what you are talking about...

But please P.M. me if you think you do. I am ready to kick ass. If you got names, name 'em.

[shance]

3. Red Eagle posted yesterday about a BBVmeeting in California

Anyone know anymore about it?

It supposed to be a public meeting with a "special appearence" by Diebold. Well worth attending and I would like to pass the word along as well as see if we can move the date up. It is conveniently scheduled 2 days after elections. Thats all I know - the link was a PDF file and I cant download.

[RedEagle]

101. PDF

Shance, are you running a Mac?

I'm not computer spiffy, but you could download a free acrobat reader and probably get it.

I just saved it to a file off the net.

But, since it's a function of the SOS of CA, I'd look around that site for it.

I've tried to see if I can convert it and I'm not having any luck. Sometimes you can, I've been told, but one of the reasons it's a PDF is so it appears the same all the time.

[_NorCal_D_]

4. The Bandwagon effect huh?

Looks like Ah-nuld is already the winner!
:eyes:

[preciousdove]

5. Ventura on Recall Election

Ventura sitting in front of a computer typing in "California Recall Election" and reading what is listed then he says:

"Those people in California will let anybody be Governor".

Can't recall the product possibly Yahoo search engine. Just saw it Saturday.

[Classical_Liberal]

6. I wouldn't worry

That means Davis, Bustumante and best of all, Huffingtons vote numbers will be up too.

I really don't understand why progressives are investing their self esteem in Davis and Busumante when Arnold isn't a Social Conservative and Davis and Bustumante aren't Economic Liberals. It makes no sense.

[mitchtv]

10. yeah Arianna will go fro 3% to 3,1 %

maybe enough to be a spoiler. but essentialy no where. Too bad you can't understand that theworst Demoxcrat is better than the best Puke, That is anyday 24/7/365. Opportunists like arianna are a dime a dozen, Cruz was elected to replace Davis if for some reason he cannot fullfill his duties. They can win, that's why we support them. If Arianna were a trustworthy dem , i would suport her , if, she had a snowballs chance to win. There is however room for one "insuranc" dem on the ticket. We don't want no stealth candidates either.

[Classical_Liberal]

11. and since Arnold isn't a fundamentalist antichoice republican

and Davis isn't a liberal, who cares whether she is a spoiler. Arnold isn't Bush. Who is going to be harmed by Arnold that wasn't already harmed by Dino Davis?

[mitchtv]

13. he isn't Bush, he isn't anything

He hasn't said anything , that he hasn't taken back or quaified. STOP trying to say he is as good as the two Dems. He is't .He is a subsidiary of Pete Wilson, and since you have already proven that you don't know what you're talking about , on a previous thread. I'll advise you that DemsIN CALIFORNIA support No recall Yes Bustamante

[Classical_Liberal]

15. What will Arnold do differently from Davis?

?

[mitchtv]

25. arnold will not say anything

he's running on his personality. and catch slogans. You trust that?

[Classical_Liberal]

29. What will he do differently though

.

[David__77]

17. Arnie is anti-choice, Davis is creating progressive change.

Arnie supports "parental notification" laws that will take away abortion rights for young women.

Davis supports AB 205 domestic partnership legislation. Arnie's spokesman says there are "serious concerns" about the bill. Why is it hard to see that Arnie is Pete Wilson II, anti-labor through and through.

Davis is pro-labor, CA is experiencing a union resurgence. Arnie is corporate shill. Simple actually, not hard to see.

[Classical_Liberal]

22. Most Americans support parental notification while against

outlawing abortion. I doubt Arnold makes it a central point of his government anyway, because he wouldn't get it passed.

Davis is hardly responsible for the Labor resurrgence. He has vetoed many bills they have supported. The only unions he supports frequently are unions related to regressive industries like the Prison Guard unions who support three strikes and your out, and the continuance of the drug war, so they can build more prisons.

[mitchtv]

26. whose side are you on anyway??

?

[Classical_Liberal]

28. Arrianna

I want her to win, since she is truly liberal and I don't have a preferrance between Davis and Arnold, and I don't know why anyone else would.

[mitchtv]

36. bwahahahahahaha

it might be possible to win with 13% but 3%??. She's another one who ahs said some very reactionariy things over a very long period of time. And she has to present a full compendium of what she still supports and/or doesn't. She has a long way to go, including an apology to the people of California for her part in Micheals campaign against Dianne, it was Putrid!. NOT an entry level position. I would be happy if she came out here and ran against Mary Bono in PSP, as a Dem. She is just what we need, she could win. I don't hate her.I like her, just not for Gov, this time ,these circumstances

[Classical_Liberal]

40. She doesn't have to apologize to me

She has changed her politics since then. We don't know she will get only 3% till the day happens. I am hoping for more than that, because I think she is the best candidate.

[mitchtv]

49. what you mean we?

we Californians? she don't have to apologize to you, cause you don't know what I'm talking about when I mention michael's campaign do you?. she really has to go over her statements point by point.

[Classical_Liberal]

52. I know her ex husband was Michael Huffington

and she WAS a republican. I don't care what she WAS! If you have to knock her down, that only proves how little merit Davis has.

[catzies]

60. Maybe "most Americans do" but Californians don't!

That dog won't hunt.

[Classical_Liberal]

66. They were never pro-life but they have voted for Candidates with

such views. Since the likely hood that Arnold will make this central to his Governership is about nill, given the Legislature. I doubt they vote on it, but if they do it is neither here nor there. Arianna is better than both Davis and Arnold IMHO.

[ButterflyBlood]

123. Al Gore was also for those laws

not that I support Arnold or such laws, but it's a stupid thing to be a single issue voter on.

[mitchtv]

18. anyone who pays utility bills isgoing to be harmed by arnold

along withanyone who has any interst inthe environment and our coast, and our clean air. he is controled by deregulation Pete Wilson. Gays will find allsocial progress over along with Union folks who will remember how Wilson took away the eight hour day. you are woefully misinformed.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. How will all social progress be over

because he doesn't recongnize gay unions? Is he going to govern forever? Your friend AP from the other thread also supports such a candidate. John Edwards doesn't support them either. How will their utility bills be threatened in ways they aren't threatened under Davis?

[mitchtv]

38. Edwards ain't goin anywhere either

I AM TOO OLD TO WAIT THRU ANYMORE DO NOTHING PUKE GOVERNORS.
Turning the PUC over to republican pro deregulaltion pro business appointees will and the coastal commision turned over to pro drilling pro development gop cronies Mini james watts. You sure defend Arnopld quite well.. can spell/ can't type

[Classical_Liberal]

43. is Davis going to reregulate the power industry

because if he doesn't he isn't antideregulation. You are already waiting through do-nothing repukes and will wait longer with either Davis or ARnold.

[mitchtv]

42. another "strate" liberal

Glad that you are quite able to sit out another GOP gov from another state and wait for my equal rights.

[Classical_Liberal]

44. If Davis was for gay marriage why hasn't it already been done

He's been there for 6 years, and never proposed it. If he is such a friend to the environment why has he threatened old growth forests?

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16751

On the campaign trail, Davis promised he would ensure that "all old growth forests are spared the lumberjack's axe." But shortly after being elected, Davis held a fundraiser at the second largest timber company in the country, Sierra Pacific Industries. There he raised more than $100,000. He then promptly appointed two corporate timber reps to the Board of Forestry. Since then, the state has rubber-stamped practically every timber plan put before it – including plans vigorously opposed by the state Water Quality Board, National Marine Fishery Service and the Fish and Wildlife Service.

Today, clear-cut logging is rampant in the precious Sierra Nevada. Imperiled watersheds are being destroyed. Democrat Davis let the fox pay him for the right to guard the henhouse. And now California's wealthy "timber foxes" are getting fatter by the day.

And that's not the end of Democrat Davis' environmental sins. He vetoed two important bills designed to mitigate toxic hazards that especially hurt people of color. One bill would have kept radioactive waste out of dumps near low-income communities. Another would have added a $10 surcharge on each computer sold, to help safely recycle them. But Davis sided with big business against the needs of the most vulnerable. The list goes on and on. s Davis hasn't been a friend to workers at all. He has only signed some proworker bills since he was threatened with recall.

[mitchtv]

48. you are the only person to mention gay marriage

davis wil/has signed AB205 arnold will work against it as his party did.You seem willing to trust the republicans that is a grave mistake. Davis is not perfect-Arnold is some bizarre creature from the lower reaches of the media

[Classical_Liberal]

53. He didn't work for it in the past why would he do it now

? I doubt Arnold will actively work against it. He has no support in the legislature, and he probably only said it to get McClintock voters anyway. The legislature are Democrats, not republicans. They are not even in danger of becoming republican.

[cally]

54. What Arnie has proposed so far

He says we have an anti-busnisess state. We have less job loss on average than other states but hey the spin sounds good. I remember what Wilson did when he was Gov with the same rhetoric, do you? Remember Wilson was a "moderate" Repuke and spent his two terms denying farmworker's protections from pesticide poisoning, removing environmental regulations and not funding enforcement, refused to take legal action against the petroleum industry for violation of clean air act and water pollution standards. Arnie's adviser just proposed massive cuts in all the programs other than education. It is a dismantling of our state government and a plan to not enforce any consumer protection or promotion on Union protections.

I agree with another poster. Ariana is not a liberal. She is an opportunist that uses politics to further her own career. She was disgusting when her husband ran for office. I'm not willing to forgive and forget until she quits acting like a Republican enabler. I think she is in this race to hurt the Dems chances of retaining the Governor.

Running a state isn't a game. With the crisis we have, we need informed, smart, experienced folks. Have Arnie or Ariana ever analyzed a state budget? Do they even know what percent of the budget is discretionary and what part is mandated by law? Do they have any clue how hard it is to get a budget passed in Cali? It takes a 2/3 vote of the Legislature. Does anyone believe, at all, that Dems in the Legislature will want to help an Arianna or Arnie after stealing an election on the learning curve. I just read that the transition of government will depend on the willingness of current Department heads and budget analysts willingness to help the new government. California is in a crisis if this recall succeeds.

Davis is not Repub-lite!!! He is a hard working moderate Dem! Compare him to Dems in many other states and you would see that he more progressive on many issues. I wish we had a more progressive Governor but Arnie and Arianna will be a disaster for California. Oh, and remember Cali does contribute to the nation's economic well-being. It might also be a disaster for the entire US.

Go have Arnie and Ariana in your state if you think a neophyte will be a good Governor.

[Classical_Liberal]

55. Davis and Old growth forests

On the campaign trail, Davis promised he would ensure that "all old growth forests are spared the lumberjack's axe." But shortly after being elected, Davis held a fundraiser at the second largest timber company in the country, Sierra Pacific Industries. There he raised more than $100,000. He then promptly appointed two corporate timber reps to the Board of Forestry. Since then, the state has rubber-stamped practically every timber plan put before it – including plans vigorously opposed by the state Water Quality Board, National Marine Fishery Service and the Fish and Wildlife Service.

Today, clear-cut logging is rampant in the precious Sierra Nevada. Imperiled watersheds are being destroyed. Democrat Davis let the fox pay him for the right to guard the henhouse. And now California's wealthy "timber foxes" are getting fatter by the day.

And that's not the end of Democrat Davis' environmental sins. He vetoed two important bills designed to mitigate toxic hazards that especially hurt people of color. One bill would have kept radioactive waste out of dumps near low-income communities. Another would have added a $10 surcharge on each computer sold, to help safely recycle them. But Davis sided with big business against the needs of the most vulnerable. The list goes on and on.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16751

Vote for a real change. Vote for Arianna.

[cally]

57. I'm well aware of that...but I care about my state

I know what Davis did pass as compared to Republican Governors. I also know what Ariana said a few years ago. I do not trust her or like her. I think she is a Replican enabler that converted from a newcon fascist only a few years ago. She's written some great columns recently but she does not stand on principal. She said she is against the recall. Oh, but not anymore because she is running. I don't know about you but I found it nauseating that she appeared at others' announcements and gave them great big hugs. Says they are all friends. She has been friends with Arnie and Maria for years. All her rich, ignorant, pals can run in a real election and not de-stablize our economy.

[Classical_Liberal]

58. Bustumante is running too, and has said he is against the recall

They(Davis and Bustumante) just endorced eachother today, so aparently it is acceptable in Democratic circles to run and be opposed to recall.

Bustumante and Davis are also Lieberman supporters, so they have their share of rich friends. I believe her change is sincere, and she is advocating things I want.

The problem Davis, Bustumante and all the DLCers are having in California is that you can't triangulate against your opponant when he is not Conservative. DLC=social liberal, economic Conservative and that is what Arnold is. Thus you have to fight on personality issues. They also can't attack Arianna on issues without exposing the fact that their candidate isn't all that different from Arnold, so they attack her on her past as Michael Huffington's wife and her rich friends.

[cally]

62. I don't believe her, at all

Her actions show that she is just another wealthy pundit who figured out a new way to make money. When she went and hugged Arnie and Maria that was disgusting. She gets into the paper by hugging the opposing candidate :wtf: She also has no government experience. She is just another talking head that I have agreed with. If she ran for Governor, got elected, and supported a normal transition to office. Then the Legislature and smart bureaucrats who do know the state budget would help her. As it is, we may end up with a politcal novice Arnie leading the state that has the 5th largest economy in the world. Ariana may very well help Arnie achieve her ends. I despise her and that ilk who care about themselves, power, and the well being of the citizens.

[Classical_Liberal]

72. No government experience isn't a minus as far as I am concerned

She isn't corrupted. If you despise people who care about power more than well being of citizens you should despise both Davis and Arnold more than I do.

[cally]

75. Davis has a looooong history of government

experience. It matters to me.

I ask that you go this year to your state capital and pick up the state budget. Then go to some budget hearings. Not the big name ones but the boring nitty gritty budget hearings where the real work is done. Listen to your govornor's plan, and see the Legislature's response. Notice the flashy neophytes and what they propose. Talk to state workers and budget directors. Look at what was slipped into that budget or left out because of the neophytes.

I've seen funding for critical programs just left out by mistake. I've seen massive giveaways of state monies because some fast talking lobbyist slipped it in and the neophytes were too new to government and the budget to see what happened. If you have a proper transition, then a team can be put together to prepare for this. With this transition, nothing. Who does Ariana have to help? Who would stay on to help? Davis appointees? Nope.

[Classical_Liberal]

78. Davis also has a lots of experience giving into neophytes

Look at his behavior toward education, the prison industry and the environment.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16751
A shameless "pay-to-play" politician, he shakes down his contributors and openly sells his support (and veto) to the highest bidder. He has helped turn the state government into a giant vending machine for big-money interests. And until he got into hot water, he was best known for shooting down progressive legislation and fanatically funding prisons.

Davis is a disgrace. And he is not alone in his party. Sure, the GOP is main home of the state's open racists, anti-gay bigots and anti-abortion fanatics. But the California Democratic Party has its share of big polluters, profiteering incarcerators and corporate power-abusers. In fact, those forces now dominate the Party. And Davis and Bustamante represent those forces, to the hilt. .....

Take, for example, the California Correctional Peace Officers Association (the prison guards' union). It makes hefty campaign contributions to politicians willing to pass draconian laws. The tough laws require longer sentences, which require more prisons, which then require more guards, who then pay more union dues, which then buy more tough laws. And on it goes.

As a result, California's prison budget has exploded by more than 600 percent in the past 20 years. We are now the nation's number one spender on prisons. In fact, we spend more on prisons than colleges..........

The CCPOA gave Democrat Davis $3.4 million in the past two election cycles. In exchange, Democrat Davis has given the guards three pay raises since 1998 – including a gigantic 7.5 percent pay hike this year. That's right: In the same year in which a $38 billion deficit resulted in massive teacher layoffs and hospital closures, Democrat Davis gave the guards a $120 million pay raise. And by 2006, that pay hike will climb to 36 percent, costing an additional $700 million a year. .......


And yet, despite this awful record, Democrat Party loyalists say we must defend him at all costs, even stooping to cheap scare tactics. They say that if Arnold Schwarzenegger wins the recall in 2003 (by a small plurality, at best), then a majority of Californians will (for some reason) vote to re-elect Bush in 2004. To beat Bush, we must save Davis.

Huh? Who thought that one up? Most Californians aren't going to vote for Bush, no matter who our governor is. Even when we have Republican governors, Californians reliably vote for Democratic presidential candidates. But these "panic button" arguments are being used to frighten and manipulate people. .......

[cally]

83. Again, learn something about the California budget

Learn what is discretionary spending, and what is because of initiatives that the Governor has no control over. I just realized you don't live in my state and so I guess you can fun bashing our elected Gov.

I again challenge you to learn something about the budget process of your own state. It probably works completely differently than ours but if you have never seen it first hand, you will be amazed. I can almost guarantee that your comments that lack of experience don't matter will change.

Peace, I'm done.

[Classical_Liberal]

86. Aren't teachers part of the budget

Why did he cut the schools only to build more prisons?

[cally]

93. Education spending is up

Over his two terms. Check the numbers. Also, an initiative was passed that allocates, I believe, 40 percent of all state General Fund monies to education. The General Fund drops and so does education spending. One of the big increases was for smaller class sizes in Primary Grades. I thought the RW talking point was that Davis was beholden to Unions who contribute funds...the teachers are major contributors also.

Also, the three strikes has increased prison spending as well as rules about mandatory sentencing. All because of state initiatives. I do think prison spending is too high and there are some room for cuts. I also know that much of the spending in not completely discretionary.

[Classical_Liberal]

95. Davis is in favor of leaving Prop 13 unamended

so there will never be much in the General fund. Arianna wants to reform it to raise taxes on Corporations. Me thinks he only raised spending on education after the recall was on. If there is no recall Davis goes back to sucking again.

Arianna will not kowtow to the Prison industry.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

82. You won't change his mind, Cally. He is hell bent on committing mutiny

via DU.

[Classical_Liberal]

90. If Davis isn't more liberal than Arnold he shouldn't expect any

differently from any progressive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. WOW! The left is enabling the right for a change...how rare..

:eyes: reminds me of Counterpunch's article about Al Gore discovering Love Canal.

At least some are capitalists and enable repulicans for money...doing it for free seems pretty unintelligent.

[Classical_Liberal]

74. Davis isn't as progressive as Al Gore

He is as progressive as Joe Lieberman. His opponant Arnold isn't as conservative as George Bush. Arnold is like the pre Reagan Rockefeller Republicans. You're just engaging in Demogogery pretending Arnold is more conservative than he is, and that Zell Davis is more progressive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Arnold met with Kenneth Lay and Dick Riordan. That is reason enough

to keep him as far away from the governor's mansion as possible. I am NOT engaging in demagogery. You are engaging in mutiny.

[Classical_Liberal]

84. I am not on the Bounty. I am a loyal progessive

Neither Davis or Arnold are. They are also not Conservatives. As for Arnold meeting Ken Lay, well Davis didn't do anything to send Lay packing. In fact hee rescued Lay from Bankrupcy. So what is your point? I only care about the Democrats so long as they are loyal to me, and/or less Conservative than the repuke and Davis isn't either of those things.

[mitchtv]

111. enron went bankrupt

please, SCE and PG&E are adifferent story , but then you wouldn't know that would you?

[Classical_Liberal]

118. If Lay has no links with SCE and PG&E why the hell should

we care whether Arnold meets with him? Davis did bail SCE and PG&E out, which was dumb, and conservative, and expressed his apathy toward whether deregulation was a bad thing. It was an opportunity to reregulate them.

\

[mitchtv]

110. why thank you Cally

excellent post

[fob]

114. You wanna know what Arnie will do?

He will, with the guidance of the Rove White House, start replacing career state employees and appointments(several hundred to 3,000 state wide!) with a similar slurry of right-wing filth that is going on in DC. We have the California Coastal Commission out here, and there are several appointees of the Governor on that board. How long after Arnie gets in do you think there will be replacements seated? It may take both days, but in short order there will be the typical "exploit the environment at any/all costs" attitude.

As for Davis, make a list of your progressive legislation YOU would like to see signed and compare it to his record. Second compare it to Arnie's stance on same said issues(if you can find he has taken a stance) and see how he fares. For that matter do the same with Arianna.

It's not just the Governor(I see in many threads you blow off any criticsm of Arnie by saying "He personally won't be able to do anything"), which is short-sighted and foolish. It's the entire state that will be infected by repug appointees on boards and commissions statewide.

The bush* connection comes in when a few token federal dollars(aka - payola) comes our way. Sort of a "look what you get when you elect repukes" graft. The media goes into full tilt overdrive and the Dem nominee is spending money here when they shouldn't have to.

Support who you want, just don't spout the rnc talking points as fact, especailly against a progressive, hard-working dem like Davis who does a good job.

[Cocoa]

12. It's about Bush

I think of this recall, I don't think about ideology for a second. Progressives has nothing to do with it, this is about Dems vs. republicans, specifically Bush.

The one time in my life I agreed with Bill Kristol, the panel on Fox was discussing Arnold's politics and Kristol correctly scoffed, saying it's ridiculous to debate whether Arnold is a conservative republican or a moderate republican, he's NOTHING, he's a body-builder and an actor.

[Classical_Liberal]

14. How is it about Bush?

Arnold's politics are more like Grey Davis than Bush. Bush is an enconomic conservative and a social conservative. Arnold is an economic conservative and social liberal. Davis is an economic conservative and social liberal. Who is Arnold more like Bush or Davis?

[David__77]

19. Please cite policy, not slogans.

What is "conservative"? Davis has supported binding arbitration for farm workers, a higher minimum wage, a host of union-endorsed legislation on job safety and union rights. How is this "conservative"?

[mitchtv]

23. I am Gay and Union

I like Davis. I like you too david.

[mitchtv]

20. Bush is a LIAR/ Arnold is a Liar

Bush is a Coward and a Chickenhawk// Arnold is a coward and a chikenhawk. Bush said he was a moderate/ Arnold says he's a moderate Bush is an idiot controled by Rove// Arnold is an idiot controled by Wilson.

[Classical_Liberal]

24. Bush was obviously antiabortion

Arnold isn't. Bush was obviously a fundy. Arnold isn't. What the war has to do with it I can't say. It doesn't actually, which is probably why Arnold nor any of the other candidates talk about it. While letting gays marry might be good, they won't be persecuted or discriminated against in employment. Why panic over it. He isn't going to create a constitutional amendment banning gays from marriage.

[mitchtv]

33. arnold will do what he's told

he is essentially dishonest, trying to please every one til he gets in. thank god he's going to lose

[Classical_Liberal]

41. What awful thing will Bush tell him to do that

Arnold will comply with. Really this is just scare mongering from partisan hacks. Most nonCalifornia dems fall for it because they don't know what a Zell Miller sellout Davis is.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

47. Alert was sent

Thank you!

[uhhuh]

76. Yep

Davis is a Zell Miller sellout. He has done much to cause concern ever since he was elected Governor. He is not progressive. He is a shady moderate that has done some good things in the state and many bad.
That doesn't take away the fact that the people of California (including me) voted for him. I HATED Simon!! I saw him as incompetent and evil. Davis, with all his faults, was clearly the better choice. My choice, along with a majority of California voters, won his elected post. Would I like to have a more progressive choice next time? Yep, I would....In a few years.

If he is not guilty of crimes or gross incompetence beyond the level of most elected officials, why do you want to invalidate my vote? I don't care if Arianna is the second coming. She did not run when she had a legitimate chance. She can run during the next election if she wants to. I have a Governor who was elected, and I feel ok with that.

In answer to your point that Ahnold is not that bad,the obvious question is, who knows if he is? He, like the chimp, is spouting moderate positions without any substance. He has offered no defined positions on any issues other than to SAY he supports "this" and opposes "that". He has offered no defined positions about anything, and has offered nothing but vague soundbites about any kind of solutions. He has not debated the issues with anyone unfriendly to him, and it is yet to be seen if he will attend any forums with the candidates.

What can he do? He has a legislature that would be hostile to him if he tried to create radical RW change.

True, we have a majority of Dems in state offices. But, as the repukes did when the Dems had a majority in Congress, he and other repukes will certainly start proclaiming that thay are being obstructed in making changes for the good of the State.
I see this as a long term attempt to turn California into another repuke state by any means possible.

You may say that I have another opportunity to vote by voting no on the recall and then choosing a replacement candidate. ( I know you didn't say that, but I'm sure it has occurred to some). This, to me, means that my vote, at best, is worth half a vote because in order to fight back this attempted coup, the Governor has to get 50% of the vote. I am a Californian, and an American. My vote is supposed to be worth as much as someone who likes Ahnold, or Arianna, or McClintock, or whoever.
I ask again, why do you want to invalidate my vote?

[Classical_Liberal]

80. There is nothing illegitmate about the recall

I would vote yes on it. It is constitutional. If it so bad you should amend the Constitution. California wont' turn into a repuke state. You have to have lot's of fundies to do that.

[uhhuh]

97. I didn't say it was illegitimate

I just said it wasn't fair. By the way, we do have LOTS of fundies in this state and an incredibly RW media machine.

Apparently it's constitutional for the SCOTUS to elect the President too, but I think that is also unfair.

[Classical_Liberal]

100. Change the Constitution then

There are fewer fundies then there were in the Reagan era. California is big enough you can find lots of everything if you want to. They are not anywhere near as powerful as they are in Texas. California isn't Texas. I don't happen to feel the recall is unfair anymore than having elections every four years to potentially undo the results of a previous election is unfair. Serving 4 yr terms is also a way of getting rid of a poor performing politician. How is that unfair?

[uhhuh]

112. Exactly

I don't think a recall, in itself is unfair. I think that having elected officials be required to get 50.1% of the vote, and his replacement only having to get .00000001% of the vote more than 134 other people in the race is unfair. It makes those of us who voted no on the first question carry much less weight than those on the other side of the question.
In the original election, Davis just needed more votes than his opposition. In this election he could get 49.9999999% support, and someone with 1% support or less, theoretically, could become the governor.
That is unfair.
There are laws on the books now that say that the government can arrest me, throw me in jail for an indefinite time, without counsel, and without the right to see evidence against me, but it's on the books, so I guess I just better accept it.
Serving 4 yr terms IS a way of getting rid of a poor performing politician. That's what I'm advocating.

[Classical_Liberal]

119. I prefer the recall because I have more choices

than conservative Davis vs neaderthal repuke, like the last election. I prefer instant runoff voting even more, because I see the need for a mandate, but this is still better than a mandate for an unrerpresentative political spectrum of candidates. California is Liberal to moderate, not Conservative to knucklewalker. There was nothing democratic about the last election. This one reflect California demographics much better.

[Eloriel]

103. You want California to go to Bush in 2004?

That's what an Arnold win will do for you. I promise -- I'm willing to put it in writing that they WILL haul out every vote suppression and vote fraud technique in the world, including those fancy computeized voting machines, and they WILL do everything in their power to STeAL CA, just as they STOLE Florida in 2000.

Eloriel

[Classical_Liberal]

105. California is not a tossup state like Florida and hasn't been for years

It has voted solidy for Democratic Presidents since 92 and there was a repuke Governer of California in 92. New York has also voted Dem solidly since electing Republican Pataki in the early 90s. You are just responding to DLC scare tactics. Sorry it just won't wash. There is no way California will vote for Bush after what Bush put them through, during the energy crisis, he is about as popular as someone with BO!

[Cocoa]

30. I should say...

I don't live in California, that's how I see it from Illinois, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Eloriel]

98. The REAL question, the REAL problem,

isn't anything about the candidates.

The recall itself is an end run around democracy. It should be thwarted by whatever (legal) means necessary. Because it's an end run around democracy, fomented by Republicans in preparation for stealing CA in 2004, and BECAUSE Davis is the duly electd Governor, everyone who cares about stopping these fascists NEEDS to vote NO on the Recall and, even if it takes swallowing hard, YES on the one most likely to win if Davis loses and it sounds to me like Bustamante is that safe backup.

For those who are so angry at Davis, so disgusted with others, GET YOUR CANDIDATE TO RUN IN THE NEXT REAL ELECTION.

In the meantime, you're aiding and abetting the kindler, gentler fascist takeover of this country and YOU will be my mortal enemy for having aided and abetted if that takeover succeeds.

Eloriel

[Classical_Liberal]

99. This is in the California Constitution

It isn't an end run around democracy and is a real election. Just as the election two years from now against Bush is constitutionally sanctioned and completely real, despite the fact that it could undo the results of the election two years ago. If you don't like it you change the constitution. Furthermore, Arnold being a liberal repuk, just like Davis, is not a fascist and there is no fascist takeover of California.

[Eloriel]

106. I don't care whether it's in CA's constitution or not

That merely makes it legal, and doable at all.

That doesn't make it a pro-democracy technique or effort. The fascists I'm sepaking of aren't necessarily in CA, they're in Washington, and Texas, and wherever else they can get away with.

You need to wake up and get a little better educated about what's going on in this country. The Repugs are trying -- and succeeding!! -- in consolidating power wherever and however they can, in just "legal" and "constitutional" enough ways to get away with it, especially if they have the right judges when challenged in court. Doesn't make it pro-democracy that it IS legal. It only means that fascists can use legal methods in a democracy to accrue enough power to themselves to CONTROL EVERY FREAKIN' THING.

I personally adore Arianna. But this is absolutely no time to let Republicans make these kinds of inroads in your state. Arnold would be a complete puppet for the Bush Cabal. Complete and total.

Did you know that 4 days before Arnold announced his candidacy that the Washington Times printed a story saying how the Bush/Cheney team thought they could take BOTH CA and NY? THAT, my dear, was the backstory for stealing the 2004 Election, starting with all those luscious electoral votes CA has to offer.

WAKE UP! Get Arianna to run the next "real" election. In the meantime, do everything in your power to thwart this end run around democracy, or you'll live to regret it and it won't take that long.

Eloriel

[Classical_Liberal]

107. If you seriously believe Bush can win California or NY

there is no reasoning with you. Bush is as popular in California as a rabid Rottewieller so how the hell could he come even close to winning. Pataki couldn't deliver NY for Bush last time and won't this time. Wilson couldn't force California to vote for Bush I. I think you are letting your fear overcome you common sense.

Bush has as much a chance in California as Ted Kennedy has in Alabama. If Bush stole it there, it would be obvious because California and NY aren't even close to being Bush states, however Rove wants to spin it just to get you pissing in your pants. You are obviously responding.

You realize another way they are taking over is by infiltrating the Dems with repukes like Davis. So they own candidates on both sides.

[Eloriel]

113. You are forgetting the VOTING MACHINES

As long as you're not addressing that issue in all your smug, ill-informed, wrong-headed analyses, you are missing THE key ingredient.

Go educate yourself. In the meantime, you're looking quite foolish.

Eloriel

[newsguyatl]

102. you TELL 'EM eloriel!!

[aquart]

109. I have no idea what you mean by progressive? Idiot? Is that it?

Because only an idiot would not realize that it is the vote being attacked here. An elected governor is being replaced before his term of office without one crime, one bribe, one egregious offense.

Exactly like Clinton. Except the recall isn't operative for president. But that's what it was.

Anything you do to make this method an option is against democratic election. Get it? It nullifies YOUR vote.

You've been distracted from the main issue. The attack on Clinton wasn't about a blow job or a lie, either.

It is about ending democracy using the tools of democracy to do it.

And all it needs to succeed is the complicity of idiots. Or do I mean progressives? What does that word mean anyway? People talk about it as if it's some kind of grail here, but I really have no precise idea what the hell they mean. Do you?

[Dover]

16. Is there any way to organize an exit poll across the state?

That just seems like one way to keep 'em honest.

[Cocoa]

21. I have to admit...

I thought exactly the same thing when I heard Luntz say that.

[VolcanoJen]

31. Why does Luntz remain gainfully employed by MSNBC?

Yes, I realize it's a moot questiobn, but WTF?

MSNBC's attempts at becoming "Fox Junior" have failed, in a celebrated fashion, so why do they continue to employ this consumate Republican partisan, and in doing so, why do they tout his credentials as a "pollster" when he is clearly nothing more than a hired-hand Attack Dog?

Here, for all to see (Are you paying attention, MSRNC?) , is a story about Luntz's memo to Republican partisans, about "killing Davis softly."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/21/politics/printable564227.shtml

[robbedvoter]

35. Because NBC is gainfully employed by GE - the bushco pioneers

Thanks for this new fresh Lunz. I knew of his dealings in 2000 but this is new for me.

[robbedvoter]

32. Reminds me of the Jeb set up - all the devious plans and then

"it's all a done deal, safe for the dropping of the balloons".
There were the funny court decisions, the holly deadline - this has Florida all over it - I agree.

[Cheswick2.0]

117. and it has all the same third party assholes cheering it on

sorry, but I have lost patience with the third party party people once again. They seem to love any end run around democracy if it gives them an oportunity to jump in and hawk the leftovers.

[w4rma]

34. Davis is guvernor. Dems have a majority in the legislature.

WHY HAVEN'T THEY DONE ANYTHING TO PREVENT THIS?! :grr::mad:

[okieinpain]

37. yep you're right, one of the talking heads yesterday said that

60% of the regular voting places will be closed. you can guess where that 60% will be.

[dusty64]

39. Its a mess, can't believe

the courts are letting this happen before all the problems can be worked out (but not surprised).

[jeter]

56. Luntz is a fucking idiot

The guy is never right.

[maggrwaggr]

59. according to my sample ballot, there are 12 BBV sites in LA County

That's 12 sites only. LA County is HUGE. Still ....

Who's got info on the rest of the state???

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cocoa]

85. you seem to see the illegals as some kind of enemy

what's wrong with the governor addressing the concerns of human beings that live in his state, that are a big part of his state's society and economy?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

89. BALONEY YOU ALREADY WERE CORRECTED IN YOUR LAST THREAD

ABOUT THIS PROPAGANDA AND YOU ARE POSTING IT AGAIN???? THEY PAY TAXES HERE!! SINCE THEY GET TO PAY, THEY GET TO PLAY. IMMIGRATION IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. ARE YOU BELIEVING YOU ARE HELPING DEMOCRATS BY POSTING THIS OBVIOUS UNTRUTH????

[Classical_Liberal]

91. I want them educated too, and Davis only signed it under

threat of recall.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

69. Luntz is a REICH WING MEDIA WHORE.....

whom no one watches!!! No one watches MSGOP, so there you little PRICK!

[Capn Sunshine]

96. A few late numbers

Ouron ground in house polling shows thet we have made up A LOT of ground these past four weeks.

we are virtually tied , with a split vote on the recall

The repukes are doing the usual eat their own feet preparation for the final sprint.

Lunntz is a spinmeister whore trying to give the country the wrong idea. I see from the response here that is working. Never forget the natives here are not opposed to Mexican culture. It is only the carpetbagging recent arrivistas from the east .

So, despite the "Classic" liberal tendency to see all things as black and white , not Gray (pun intended) and insistenece by out of staters they know all about us here's a recap:

The momentum for YES on the recall is BROKEN. MInus over 8 percent in less than six weeks. The NO ON RECALL numbers are gaining , have tied , and will go on to win. Polling paces closed were not as bad as we thought, there are many dem strongholds left open.

Bustamante is ahead by some 6-8% as of Sunday.

All that remains is to get out the Dem majority. Front page Times today helped immensely.

Now you classic liberals go back to microparsing Howard Dean's every breath. We have a fiesta to plan.
:nuke:

[Classical_Liberal]

104. I support Howard Dean

so why would I attack him. I also support Arianna and I hope she beats Bustumante(DLC),Davis(DLC) and Rockefeller Republican Arnold!

[Eloriel]

108. That's great news, Capn

And I know you've been fighting this whole thing and BOY! do I love you for every single minute you've put into it.

Just don't get cocky, don't count your chickens before they're hatched, and don't let up.

Also, I'm hysterical reading upthread that 60% of polling places will be close in that huge county. Are you guys doing anything on that kind of issue? That WILL help defeat you, you know.

Also, check your PM.

Eloriel

[ParanoidPat]

115. LOFL!

Hmmm, 42 posts by someone who can't even vote in the recall election. Well I got news for him! My 1 vote against the recall (FOR DAVIS) is worth more than his OPINION and to add insult to injury, my wife and 2 voting age children also intend to vote NO on the recall and YES for Bustamante! LOL! But wait, there's more, I can assure Classicknotfromcal Liberal that I know at least a dozen Californian VOTERS that have expressed the same sentiments! Can you say F-L-A-M-E B-A-I-T! Good, I knew you could boys and girls! :evilgrin:

:kick:

NO ON RECALL, YES ON BUSTAMANTE

:kick:

[Booberdawg]

116. Truly astounding, isn't it ..

:eyes:

[4dog]

120. kick, back to the visible range, nt

[hunter]

121. I live in California...

The eye of this perfect shitstorm is heading towards me!

I'm putting plywood over the windows. I sorta wish it was just wind and rain.