What Limits on Civil Obedience?

[dxstone]

I first posted the following as a response to the thread "PHOTOS: San Diego military recruitment center DEFACED...."; a fellow DUer suggested I expand on it and start a new thread (which is my first such, with fingers crossed)...
In that original thread I was surprised to find quite a number of response postings from people who seemed to think that vandalizing an empty building was simply a bridge too far; several used words such as "disgusting", "juvenile behaviour" and the like; others see such a tactic as counterproductive to our overall cause...
The moral indignation of these responses, though, was what really struck me in the face like a A Monty Python FishDance mackerel... one respondent wrote that "Vandalism is lawless, criminal behavoior. Those who did this should be arrested, charged, and if found guilty made the pay the appropriate fines." Another made comparisons to neo-nazis and the Ku Klux Klan; others drew similar comparisons to the tactics used by pro-lifers on abortion clinics. Quite a few seemed to be IMMENSELY concerned about the fact that needed repairs would come out of our taxes...
I found this sort of thinking, shall I say, extremely annoying. I posted an angry and insulting response to one of these, in which I called the writer a jerkoff. This post was soon deleted (another first for me) and I'm not complaining about that, this thread did get rather heated throughout... I returned later with a cooler head to post the following, and I'd like to get others' take on this question (though I can well understand if many are reluctant to publish their personal views on this in a public forum)...
It all just makes me wonder if we've got what it takes to actually turn this dark tide, or if we're just blowing wind to make ourselves feel better, as we wait for the inevitable killing stroke.

So what half you guys seem to be saying...
Is that you're going to take your country back from these fiendish monsters who have stolen it from you, and who are turning a completely deaf ear to anything you say, who are in fact right at this moment blowing up some poor innocent f**kers on the other side of the world, with YOUR money... you're going to do that, you're going to fight the good fight til' the very first window is broken... and then you're going to say, "OH my GOD! Broken glass! WHAT HAVE WE DONE?" and just give up?
I didn't mean to be so harsh with you earlier, _____; maybe the two words I was looking for should have been "Wake up!"
I'm not advocating this, necessarily... but it's perfectly understandable in these terrible times we live in, and to say that such people should be arrested and fined--I just really gotta question your priorities there...
Civil disobedience of this sort is an old and honorable tradition. Wasn't the Boston Tea Party a fine example of this "vandalism" you speak of? Should THOSE guys have been arrested and fined too?
(Then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, hmmm?...)
People aren't always perfectly rational... but c'mon, some sins are minor league, especially as measured against the tactics of our neocon enemies, who will obviously stop at NOTHING to advance their agenda...
THEY have the money to buy up ALL the storefronts and sidewalks, not to mention EVERY large-circulation newspaper and radio and television station in the world... we 'lil people' have very few alternatives in terms of getting our voices heard...
And on top of all that, have you been paying ANY attention to the events of the last two weeks? It's a SHIT-STORM out there; we're losing ground daily...
I guess it comes down to just how many giant hero-sized crapola sandwiches YOU feel you can stand to be force-fed before you just can't take one more bite.
The reeps should simply pass a "law" outlawing dissent of ANY kind... and then we could embrace W as we should've to begin with, and all get back to trying to 'work within the system to affect positive change'...
We sign petitions: "Please, could you PLEEASE just TRY to stop poisoning us so badly EVERY DAY, Mister Leadership Man? (who is SUPPOSED to work for me, but who I will NEVER ACTUALLY MEET or speak to for five minutes because I'm just too small a fish)... like, could you guys even just TALK about SLOWING DOWN on the poisoning of us all, just a LITTLE? PLEEEASE???"
...and guess what? They're not listening.
Isn't it obvious?
They don't care if you're baby's sick. They don't care if you have something bad happen to you that wipes you out; maybe it WAS through no fault of your own, but too bad. Tough luck. There's a new sheriff in town, and new rules. No falling down. If you fall down on the ratwheel even ONCE, you die. Tough luck. 9/11 Changed Everything! Run!
We go to protests. We have to APPLY FOR A LICENSE to try to get our voices heard. Bush is in NY? They put us in a basement somewhere in New Jersey. We're underground cuz they're BURYING US.
Look, I ain't advocatin' NOTHIN'... do what YOUR conscience tells you to do...
And watch out who you confide in... cuz it seems to me there are a whole lot of people on this site who would rather waste energy condemning some of the dissenters, and bringing THEM to 'justice', than to sit up and take notice that, sad as I am to say it, though we feel ourselves informed and properly horrified at it all, we are ONLY JUST getting into the thick of it... and for many, it is much, MUCH later than you think.
DXS

Addendum, present-tense:
It is entirely possible that this particular incident of vandalism was indeed the work of juveniles; in fact, I'd be surprised if it wasn't... for though I am no longer of draft age, I can easily understand the motives and plain intentions of some of our younger citizens in this matter.
To the question of comparisons to the Ku Klux Klan or abortion foes, I'd simply point out that no one is forming lynch mobs, issuing death threats or actually shooting recruiters here... they are containing their protest to the destruction of property alone.
As for the issue of repair costs, which would YOU rather THEY spent your taxes on: This, or more bombs, bullets and bullshit?
It's OUR money, folks; I suggest we waste it wisely.
STARVE THE BEASTS!
DXS

[toymachines]

1. right on the dot

if i post anti-bush regime propaganda on public and private walls and signs, is that "wrong". I say no. No freaking chance is that wrong, it is an attempt to spread information, send a sign, get a voice out there. Civil disobedience can be illegal, in many cases it has to be. if protesting was made illegal, would we stop? no... we have a duty to Rebel against babylon. it is immoral to sit in apathy.

[bryant69]

2. IT depends on whether you want to actually win

Or just get off on the testestorone of throwing a brick throw a window. I can imagine how enjoyable it is to break a window or commit some other act of vandalism. Looks like fun, and it lets you enjoy the illusion that you are actually fighting the system. And why not - after all compared to all the evil the Bush Adminstration has done a little broken glass is nothing.

Except, of course, it pushes people away from us, and makes it easier for Republicans to paint us as dangerous and out of touch and violent. They're going to do that anyway of course, but this will make it easier and more believable. But when you compare it to the adreneline rush one gets from sticking it to the man, I suppose it balances out.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[seventythree]

22. I agree

we went through this during Nam -- until you reach a certain critical mass, property destruction will only work against the cause. Look at Schiavo -- 82%!!!!!! against what the GOP did -- no property destruction to get them there, but a cause which hit them at home. Cool your jets -- the time may come, but it is not now. A draft will take us far -- wars don't hit home until it's your kid who can go. Some argue that it is an immoral means to an end -- so is property destruction -- but it's coming -- wait.

[frictionlessO]

3. I hope more people want to discuss this.

You seem to be a good addition to DU. I tend to agree with you, but we have a very big tent thing happening at DU and we always have people who chime in to discourage and disparage but never chime in with support when things go exactly according to law.

These same folks for the most part would never protest and think of us more liberal types as dragging "their" party down. All they want to do is compromise, which is fair for them to want. I will gladly defend their feeling of outrage in concerns to graffiti and posters, though I think it ridiculous.

When I will sort of freak out on them is if I catch them being hypocritical by going off over some protest that hurts a little property and then become an apologist for fuck up troops that further endanger more American lives. Above them all I save my ire for the lizards in charge.

My suggestion to you is just hit ignore or laugh at them or if they are questionable enough with their posts hit alert and leave it be. These people dislike us more than repubs and consider us twice as bad. They are not the ones to debate with, they dont care about the protests anyways unless it makes them look bad in the eyes of their repub friends.

As a caveat... this is just how I FEEL, not what I know because in the end like 98% of the general public I don't know much.

[MisterP]

4. let's all be good little Nixonites, so we can gently coax the Invisibile

Silent Majority into our nice well-behaved unobstructive and mute little camp

[BiggJawn]

5. Didn't Gandhi "break the law" when he went to make salt?

I don't really see how you can call it "Civil Disobedience" if you're NOT breaking some law.

Throwing paint and bricks just might force their hand. how they gonna cover up shit like "Police kill 25 in Recruiting Station 'Riot'..."?

So we behave ourselves like Good Little Rational People,and they outlaw protest marches, silent protests, any sign of disagreement with the Shrub. What are we going to do then, since if we continue to speak out and break the "law", we'll be looked upon exactly the same as today's paint and brick throwers.

It's gonna come to head. Chicago '68 was nothing copmpared to what's coming down the pike. The Fundie whack-job Right is FURIOUS that they didn't get their Easter Present, and I think a lot of us are just damn sick and tired of being blamed for all that's wrong in this world.

Remember my usual line about the police asking why my truck was home on Sunday morning? It could happen very soon, but instead of the cops, I see gangs of "Spirit-Filled" Fundie vigilantes doing it.

[H2O Man]

10. On Gandhi & C.D.

It is only Civil Disobedience if you are willing to be arrested and to accept the full penalty of the court as a consequence of your actions. Riots, vandalism, etc are uncivil disobedience. It is very important that people understand the difference.

[BiggJawn]

21. And if I throw a brick and accept full responsibility?

Let me say it agian: if they bring in their "Martial Freedom", tomorrow's standing silently on the corner with a protest sign will be viewed in the same light as today's brick throwing.

And punished as severely.

This bunch doesn't play by the Raj's rules. Their playbook came from Heydrich's estate.
Civil Disobedience will be of little use once the "Troubles" get rolling hot and heavy.

[H2O Man]

29. I agree

that we are dealing with a vicious group. That is exactly why I think that we need a select group to carry out high-profile civil disobedience. Further, I should make clear that I only advocate this course of action for those who willingly embrace it.

Keep in mind that neither Gandhi or King led people in actions where they expected to be embraced by their opposition. They knew they faced the most brutal of human beings. If one wants to commune with Gandhi and King, they must be willing to face the beast.

[seventythree]

23. right on -- being very 60's here

[H2O Man]

30. Unfinished business .....

I think that America made a lot of progress in that decade. It became very clear in the 2004 presidential election that we have a lot of unfinished business. I strongly recommend that people (especially the young people) study the 1960s, as history is always able to teach us what works, and what doesn't.

[PATRICK]

6. I think unions, civil rights groups

and any with long experience in non-violent OR plain old civil demonstration must be porfessionally be brought to bear in these massive coalitions that include amateurs, theater, fringeies etc. In ANY case you will be told to expect the inevitable. Provocation if "trouble" doesn't happen naturally. Infiltrators. Lousy press. Jail time even for minor infractions. When you get serious belatedly the job gets tougher and things will get messy- a large part of the time not to to outraged ordinary citizens but deliberate sabotage.

The response in all cases cannot be naive or kneejerk emotional or it will be manipulated off the point against the demonstrators- every time.

People should go expecting to die when the cause is this dangerous and necessary, but no one is really prepared for the reality. The outcome is never guaranteed. The spiritual core has to be stronger than the fury of the "others".

Our nation particularly is in a strange mess regarding civil demonstrations and the mythological free press. Throwing together large coalitions is not an easy answer- only a necessary one.

The principles of non-violence, one might observe did NOT go 100% smoothly in India. The distraction away from the message is a strong force, the seeds of violence well seeded in society. Staying on course and message(as Bush does easily in his destructive way, destruction is ALWAYS easier) is paramount.

The law can be ignored when the roots of the social contract, we the people, move toward a just reform. Respecting the pain of embracing the wildly swinging scales of justice is the price to be paid. Letting violence and hatred win and define the "dissenters" must be denied with the full force of courage and conviction. It will not be perfect but moving resolutely toward the ideal.

Let the experienced peacemakers help with inevitable problems. This walk had been walked before.

[seafey]

7. Excellent points........

I totally agree with this. You make great points and I invite people to go look at www.lvimc.org to see the arrests made in Las Vegas. I was there and was completely transformed because I saw for myself how "too late" it is. The cops are BRUTAL and WRONG and there's nothing standing between them and us. You think it's the law, but that didn't stop them from kicking my friend's face or slamming others to the ground for doing nothing more than insisting on having a PEACE vigil.

So thanks for the post, and you did great posting your first thread.

:)

Peace and Solidarity---------

[BillyDoc]

8. dxstone is absolutely right

As long as we keep asking "pretty please" . . . we lose. Simple as that. Because we are dealing with greed for money and power, not honorable people. But that doesn't mean to go out and paint some walls and generally be a jerk just cause the Repugs are, it won't work. All you end up doing is alienating damn near everyone.

What you CAN do is this: INSIST on honest elections, and set up your own polling booths with paper ballots right outside the usual precinct polling places. Do it RIGHT, document absolutely everything, and then when they pull the usual crap go to court . . . and if that doesn't do it hit the streets and REFUSE to leave them. All of which is "illegal" but absolutely necessary. (see: http://electionfraudbounty.org/Two%20simple%20election%20plans.php)

Start a citizen's initiative WHETHER OR NOT your state has provisions for one. Those states that do have provisions for citizen's initiatives use these provisions to make it damn near impossible to actually get the initiatives on the ballot. On the other hand, if you go out and collect 600,000 signed statements that say these citizens want this particular law, and show up at your state legislature with them . . . they are only going to get more people mad at them if they ignore you, and they know it. In Florida we have to collect those 600,000 signatures anyway, because we ARE blessed with citizen's initiative laws. (See: http://breakthelink.org)

If you have a job that pays the big bucks, and you are tired of buying bombs with your tax dollars . . . quit! Go back to school and see about a first, second or what the hell, fifth degree. Live cheaply and enjoy life more . . . and screw the tax man. They can't take it from you if you don't earn it. And face it, you really don’t need all that crap! It owns you, not the other way around.

If you can't just quit (which most people can't, I know) then agitate for a union, start town meetings of your own where you actually talk about issues, show up at your city council meetings and generally yell at the corrupt bastards. Get your friends to do it! I know a crazy old guy in my home town who loves to do this sort of thing.

Whatever you do, throw the stinking TV out! The corporate media love it when you watch their drivel and let them brain-wash you with their greedy politics and their consumer mentality. The mass media is ALL ABOUT DECEIT! And don't forget it. You will never get actual information from it, you will only get a constant diet of pathos to keep you upset and distracted and constant chatter about the "latest and greatest" whatever. If you don't go ballistic when you hear the canned laughter, you just don't understand what they are doing to you.

And if it comes down to laying siege to the capitol with your warm body, be there! No matter WHAT self-serving laws these jerks may pass.

[iverglas]

9. largely with you

I'm mainly of the I am hardly distressed enough by such things to bother speaking a syllable in public, but I will point out the counter-productive nature of their acts to the perpetrators bent.

I'm old now, but even when I was a protesting kiddie back in the Vietnam days, I never saw a whole lot of point in this kind of thing. But I have never wasted much moral outrage on it.

I'd also like to point out what civil disobedience actually is, and decry the common misuse of the term.

If a law forbids a person from sitting in a particular place, and s/he sits there in violation of the law, that is civil disobedience.

If a law requires people to register for a military draft, and they refuse to register, that is civil disobedience.

If a law makes it a crime to perform an abortion, and a doctor performs an abortion, that is civil disobedience.

The kind of thing we seem to be talking about here might be called "direct action", but it really is not civil disobedience, and the two should not be confused.

Now, I'll make a bit of an exception for big symbolic acts of "vandalism":

http://www.answers.com/topic/philip-berrigan

Phillip Berrigan, his brother Daniel Berrigan, and the famed theologian Thomas Merton founded an interfaith coalition against the Vietnam War, and wrote letters to major newspapers arguing for an end to the war.

Soon, Phillip Berrigan began taking more radical steps to bring attention to the anti-war movement. On October 27, 1967, Berrigan and three others poured blood (including Berrigan's) on Selective Service records in the Baltimore Customs House. As they waited for the police to arrive and arrest them, the group passed out Bibles and calmly explained to draft board employees the reasons for their actions. Berrigan stated, "This sacrificial and constructive act is meant to protest the pitiful waste of American and Vietnamese blood in Indochina". He became the first priest in America to be arrested for an act of civil disobedience. He was sentenced to six years in prison.

... and I'm not sure that I really hold with that "ya gotta be prepared to do the time" aspect of classical civil disobedience (viz. Nelson Mandela etc.) ... but I think you have to at least be prepared to do the act openly and publicly and not secretly or while wearing black ski masks.

Overall, I'm pretty fed up with direct action types and their actions. When I'm protesting the visit of George W. Bush to my country, I just don't need to be wondering whether some fool is going to break a fast-food restaurant window or throw something at a cop. What the bleeding hell is that going to accomplish, or even intended to accomplish, other than get us tear gassed? I don't want to be tear gassed. I don't think that getting sick is a reasonable and productive way of pressuring governments to change policies.

Yeah, maybe one day the time will have come when there will be enough people wanting to break enough windows that doing it would actually bring victory. But really, this is the 21st century, and we live in liberal democracies. If we have enough people to do that, is there some reason we couldn't just form a party and vote the bastards out?

But I'm sure with you on the moral outrage. Fer fuck's sake, eh?

[H2O Man]

11. Well said

although there is one error: Nelson Mandela was not involved in "civil disobedience." He was a young revolutionary who was capable with the tools of violence. One need only read his autobiography to understand that the nonviolent man who was released from prison was very different than the young man who entered.

The Berrigan Brothers are a great example of disciples of nonviolent Civil Disobedience. In fact, it can only be a hollow display if people are not willing to accept incarceration. We have reached the time in America where we need people who will commune with the spirit of Martin Luther King, Jr.

[iverglas]

12. my details are fuzzy

Nelson Mandela was not involved in "civil disobedience." He was a young revolutionary who was capable with the tools of violence.

I think I was thinking of his refusing to renounce the use of violence in return for release from prison. I guess one could call "refusing to renounce violence" a non-violent act. ;)

In fact, it can only be a hollow display if people are not willing to accept incarceration.

See, that's what I'm not quite sure about, and also why I don't quite call the Berrigans' deed "civil disobedience".

Yes, if you're going to go pouring blood on things, or smashing or spray-painting things, then it is really going to be of no effect, other than nuisance value, if it isn't done in person and in the open.

But the narrow, properly-so-called civil disobedience part -- Rosa Parks and her bus in the US south, Dr. Henry Morgentaler and his abortion clinic in Montreal -- disobeying bad laws directly -- I don't know whether I hold with that "take your medicine" stuff.

Morgentaler didn't conceal what he was doing, but I don't think he needed to invite the police in to watch, so that they could arrest him and he could take his medicine. And with principled draft resisters and military deserters during Vietnam and now, for instance, I don't point any moral finger at those who leave their country, or go into hiding internally, rather than be jailed for their acts. Martyrs may be useful, but I don't think we can expect any individual to martyr him/herself.

Just musings. It's a subject I've never really adopted a firm position on.

[H2O Man]

13. Seems well thought out

to me. It makes me feel good to read something as interesting as this. I would suggest that even King was at times conflicted about non-violence and civil disobedience. It takes a brave person to see it through, especially because of that doubt.

I hope you keep commenting on this topic. Not just on this thread, but in the upcoming months. It's coming very close to when this nation will need people to step up on this.

[iverglas]

15. ah, if only ;)

It's coming very close to when this nation will need people to step up on this.

The closest I'll be able to step is up near the border. ;) Or back to milling around in front of your nation's diplomatic missions in mine.

But I'll tell ya, I've got some major shit right here at good old DU for mentioning how I did harbour a draft resister/deserter or two who came north back circa 1970, and how I'd be more than willing to do it again.

Heavens to betsy, advocating that someone actually do something illegal to hinder this vicious war ... even though I hadn't actually advocated anything anyhow. Not that I wouldn't, I just wouldn't feel quite right demanding that someone else make a choice I don't have to make.

I don't really have a good place to throw my own body in this matter, so I figure the least I could do is feed and house somebody else's.

[antigone382]

16. Well, I commend you for your actions.

And I've found both your and H20 Man's comments on this thread very compelling. It's nice to see such a good, thoughtful discussion on DU again.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind harboring my brother and me when the draft starts back again? (just kidding, of course ;))

[iverglas]

17. I knew it

I'm going to have to hold a raffle. ;)

But cereally, I don't think there would be any shortage of harbourers here.

You've seen http://www.marryanamerican.ca/ , eh?

[antigone382]

18. LOL, yes, I've seen that.

It's both funny and good to know that our northern neighbors are sympathetic to our plight. :pals:

I actually am good friends with a college mate who is a Canadian citizen living here on a visa (he's cute, too!). He's a potential ticket out of here; however, I found out recently that the government can draft residents. :wtf: That just doesn't seem fair to me; I thought the concept was, if you can't vote, you can't be drafted.

I'm truly not afraid to die for my country; in fact I seriously considered joining the military after 9/11. But seeing the way our soldiers' lives are being thrown away on greed and arrogance, I almost don't want to be an American anymore. It's really a tragic thing, considering that I was raised to revere my country and the principles it supposedly stood for. If I'm going to sacrifice myself for something, whether it be through incarceration, injury, or death (though that's not likely and I don't want to sound dramatic), it's going to be to ensure that those principles are upheld, in spite of any wishes to the contrary held by those in power.

[H2O Man]

20. Okay.

My sons may need a place to stay in a while. (smile) We are at a strange time in our history. I do not think that the boundries that once separated Canada or Mexico from the United States are what they once were. They are boundries in our minds, and I'd venture that in a few short years, our perceptions of these boundries will change.

In fact, many of the perceptions of our North American culture will change. A quote from Ouspensky comes to mind: "All the truths belonging to the majority are like ancient rancid bacon or like rotten green ham; and from them comes all the moral scurvy which is eating itself into the life of the people around us."

It is a primitive error in western religious thought, for example, that holds that "God" demands a flesh and blood sacrifice from humanity. Quite the opposite: it is humanity that demands the sacrifice from those with understanding. Men like Gandhi and King, and certainly like the evolving Nelson Mandela, understood this. And the Berrigans, too -- they could not have as easily gone in to beat swords into plowshares as a black man could sit at a segregated lunch counter in 1960 .... hence their "secrecy."

America needs people who will refuse to actively participate in the madness ... in the fear and the hatred that "is eating itself into the life of the people around us." People need to say, "No, I will not kill for Halliburton." And some of us may be forced to sacrifice so that others -- primarily the younger generation -- can progress beyond the silly boundries that mark an unhealthy, violent past.

[seventythree]

24. excellent

[antigone382]

14. kick.

It took a newbie to bring up this incredibly important and long overdue discussion...I hope we can keep it up here, in spite of all the Schiavo threads.

Welcome to DU, dxstone!

[wuushew]

19. Madison 1970

My dad had his doctorate project destroyed by the Sterling Hall blast that was intended for the Army Math Department. I believe one the photos is the actual room he was using at the time. The real tragedy of that was the death of of an innocent not any amount of property damage. Sure it was a setback to in his life but had public outrage against Vietnam been more vociferous and publicized my uncle might be alive today.








Vietnam lasted a long bloody decade and it was not the bold decisiveness of politicians that ended that war but domestic unrest. Anything that disrupts the evil military industrial complex is good since arguably the United States has not fought a "just" war since WWII.

The war in Iraq cannot be won without a fresh supply of raw meat. Through deception and masterful use of propaganda those kids are not making fully informed decisions. Waiting for a Republican controlled government to do anything rational or ethical will not happen, especially with the likes of Lieberman kissing Bush's ass.

[rucky]

25. I know a few banks in the Caymans that could use a little redecorating.

If you really want to starve the beasts & punish those who aid and support terror.

:shrug:

[paineinthearse]

26. I've always thought an element of humor makes for good civil disobediance

Always to throw a little humor into the mix, it may cause the "victim" to think about their evil ways.

One of our own was on Left Radio yesterday. I almost fell off my chair when I heard her say that she had gone into a bookstore and replaced the dust jacket from a Michael Moore book with one from an Ann Coulter book. Imagine the freeper's head exploding!!!

p.s. Not bad for a first post.

[dxstone]

27. Thanx, y'all, for the many intelligent responses!

It's great to have a reasoned discussion on subjects such as this...
When Bush first started running for the highest office in the land I was truly horrified, and began writing a regular column for a small weekly alt entitled "Millions are Horrified!!!" This title turned out to be MUCH more apropos and far-sighted than I'd EVER have preferred; but I am proud to say that in what little way I could manage, I've been in the neocons' faces for pretty much the entirety of these last five years, though my voice was reaching such a frustratingly small portion of the populace...
But the interesting thing I wanted to share here was this: I just recently got a decent computer, finally, and DSL, a REAL connection to the net, and began penetrating this new world of shared insight and information... and I gotta tell ya, it's very encouraging; I don't feel nearly so alone in my views and beliefs as I had previously...
If you'd have asked me two years ago, where's the liberal media?, I'd have responded, "Here I am! Yep, it's me, I'm the guy you seek!"
I really felt like the Lone Ranger, man, only WITHOUT the trusty sidekick...
It's really nice now, to know I'm NOT the only one...
DXS

[Misunderestimator]

28. It was not vandalism... and you posting such flamebait without the pics...

that were in the original thread seems intentional. They were SIGNS taped to WINDOWS at recruitment centers.

On edit... perhaps it's a different thread you were referring to. If so, and it was a thread showing actual vandalism, then I disagree... I think that there should be some limits to actual vandalism.

On second edit, I think there will come a time when such vandalism you describe may become necessary. I agree that we shouldn't back off of protest simply because a few individuals go overboard, but I don't think we've reached the point that such behavior is necessary.

[paineinthearse]

31. I saw some photos (Diamond14?) of actual vandalism

(spray)painted words. Technically, that is vandalism.

But I would consider that mild and within the code of civil disobedience.

I draw the line at anything that causes significant damage or hazards life.

[H2O Man]

32. "monkey warfare"

darned kids!

[Misunderestimator]

33. I'll agree with that...

There are some circumstances where I would understand such vandalism... vandalism that can be corrected with minimal effort. I still wouldn't do it myself, but I can understand the anger behind it.

[paineinthearse]

34. .

:kick:

[paineinthearse]

35. Artful pranksterism

For an example how art can creatively be used as a blow against war and the establishment, see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1685840#1685971

[Discord]

36. I tend to agree with much of what you said but...

with some discretionary conditions when dealing with any radical methods.

I would only support actions using non-violent methods.

I would only support actions that had a clear purpose or statement.

I would only support actions that did not harm, either physically or financially any person or non-corporation.

I would only support actions when they are the exception and not the rule.

I would only support actions done in a manner in which is consistent with a widely supported cause.

I would only support actions that one would be willing to face the music if caught doing so.

These are probably not all the exceptions I could think of but all I will list at this time.

[DerekG]

37. It is rather shocking that DUers don't discuss this more

We pat ourselves on the back for attending rallies, and yet, in the end, I don't think marches mean a damn thing to fascists. I really don't. Whether we want to admit it or not, the progessive movement is going to have to move beyond protest-as-political-theater; it is probable that before this is over, we're gonna have to be willing to throw wrenches (as well as our bodies) into those crimson-stained gears of the American empire.

[paineinthearse]

38. Saving a great thread from sinking......

And to point to another where art-is-polical_theatre - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1685840#1685867

[H2O Man]

39. Yep. Good thread.

This one deserves further attention.

[Pepperbelly]

40. as someone who came of age in the late 60s, early 70s ...

sometimes it just feels so fucking good ...

Does it help anything? No, it does not.

Could it alienate fellow citizens? Marginally, but not decisively.

If it is something you have to do, then you do it.

[H2O Man]

42. Does it help anything?

I think that the argument could be made that civil disobedience in Selma and Birmingham helped bring the issue of civil rights to the nation's attention. There is reason to believe that folks in Washington were not pleased with the international attention that these events received.

[G_j]

41. if the day comes when tens of thousands

are willing to be arrested in acts of non-violent civil disobedience, we may actually see a significant shift.
Until then.... :shrug:

[H2O Man]

43. If there were twelve people

who would be willing to go to Washington and take part in a true Gandhian adventure, it would be enough to qualify for a good start. "Tens of thousands" could only become conscious of the power of nonviolent civil disobedience as a result of a smaller group that acts as a fuse.

[G_j]

44. this has already been happening

for years now. SOA activists, elderly nuns etc. have spent lots of time in federal prison for their well disciplined symbolic "crossing the line". "Swords to Plowshares": more traditional Gandhian like actions, elderly nuns once again sent to prison for damaging a nuclear missile.
Hundreds of people have been arrested in non-violent actions protesting the war. In our town alone there were over 40 ppl arrested when Iraq was attacked and in the following weeks.
The problem is nobody hears about it. A few thousand ppl getting arrested on purpose would be hard to hide.

[H2O Man]

45. Yes, there are good starts.

How many have fasted for prolonged periods? That seems to be what is needed. Creative nonviolent actions must evolve to meet today's circumstances. Simply going to jail -- as important and brave as it is -- is simply no longer enough.

[G_j]

46. a million ppl withholding taxes?

a major tax revolt could also be effective.

[H2O Man]

47. Could be.

Dumping tea was a good statement on taxation.