Malloy made a good point last night RE Schiavo.

[UdoKier]

He essentially said that these people making a fuss over her are all TERRIFIED of death. They can't face the idea of their own mortality, and by extension, Terri's. He basically said "Look, she IS GOING TO DIE. YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. PEOPLE DIE. Get a grip."

I think we have to be the most death-phobic society on earth. Sure, the thought of one's own demise is scary, but it is an inevitability. We immerse ourselves in escapism, some even spend millions on freezing ourselves, take vitamins, work out, but our bodies WILL fall apart, and we WILL die. That's not to diminish the value of anyone's life, but quality of life is a huge issue, too, and keeping Terri in that immobile, bedridden, unconscious state is NOT the compassionate thing to do. After 15 years, if her soul is indeed bound to that body, I'm certain that it wants to FLY.

[vi5]

1. And these are all people who believe in an afterlife/god...

For a bunch of people who believe in how great the kingdom of heaven and the glory of the lord supposedly is, they sure are doing everything they can to avoid people heading there.

[frankly_fedup2]

36. The Bible says we should cry when a baby is born and celebrate

when someone dies (I cannot remember the book, chapter), however, we do the opposite.

These parents are not thinking of their daughter. They are thinking of themselves, and the fact that they cannot do anything. I cannot blame them for trying every way they can. She is their child. I cannot imagine watching my child die. I also cannot imagine seeing my child day after day for 15 years lying in a bed, and her body starting to twist up due to spasms and contortions of the muscles. By them exhausting all avenues, once she is gone, they will not have guilt for lack of trying. However, they have treated their former son-in-law like a murderer.

Some of the comments about Terri's husband are terrible. Anyone in the news that starts talking about him are only getting their information from what the parents or brother has said. Larry King (who never gives anyone a tough interview), sat on his high stool and continued to accuse this man that there is something he is going to benefit by Terri's death.

He obviously has a lawyer, and I really do not understand why he does not start filing some defamation of character lawsuits. (maybe he is waiting until after Terri dies????)

Also, the Bible says that once you take a husband or a wife, you leave your parents. (same as above).

I read my Bible, I just cannot memorize it.

[JDPriestly]

2. True.

And, what I don't understand is, if the Schindlers love their daughter so much, why aren't they trying to make her last moments, their last moments with her as quiet and prayerful as possible. They are doing everything possible to ensure that her death is without dignity. How crass!

[LunaC]

5. For the Schindlers, this isn't about Terri

It's about "winning" and making Michael Schiavo wrong. Their dispute long ago turned into a hateful vendetta that's gotten totally out of control and destroyed their logic or decency.

[sui generis]

6. eh - that's kind of presumptive doncha think?

they really aren't spawn of the devil you know - however misguided they are, their choices are made out of love for their daughter.

[LunaC]

10. Love or denial? n/t

[sui generis]

14. maybe a little from column A and a little from column B

judge the performance, not the performer. You could say "overly optimistic" and mean the same thing I suppose.

It's not reality to categorize everyone we know as demonic or angelic, is all I'm saying. I think that for whatever reason they are where they are and they're being abused by the a right wing agenda and judged by our own "superior" egos over here, but rational or not, they're not doing this to bedevil democrats no matter how much some of us would like to believe that.

[Zinfandel]

24. Like ALL religious nuts & right-wing assholes...IT'S ABOUT CONTROL!

And yes, they are truly fearful of death.

Spending their whole life lying and being deceitful toward others for their own monetary gains, the selfish and greedy pursuits because of that lust for (black) gold & riches.

Then, having to depend and have "faith" that their God will forgive all their ugliness here on this planet...

It makes them mean, the need to control, the power and to dictate, including, who should be able to live or die...They desperately need to play God with other peoples lives...It helps alleviate their own fears of death.

[LunaC]

42. Never said they're trying to "bedvil" democrats

Please don't put words in my mouth. Their issues are with their SIL and Terri appears to be the pawn in their tug-of-war

[kalibex]

12. Ummm...

"...however misguided they are, their choices are made out of love for their daughter..."

That is a presumption.

IE: keep in mind that different people have different practical definitions of that nebulous term 'love'. Don't presume that they all match, in this case, the Schindlers' (apparent) definition.


-B

[sui generis]

17. and I suppose all of us over here are perfect judges

of all of that. Amazing. Sometimes DU sets my tit hairs on fire. We could try just a little more humility and a little less superciliousness.

[rkc3]

26. On a lot of subjects here, I have to agree with you.

If we were as smart as we think we are - we might not be in this current mess.

[kalibex]

33. Eh...

"We could try just a little more humility and a little less superciliousness."

More assumptions...for instance, that I'm being supercilious.

Point is, unless we can see inside the heads of the parties involved, it's an assumption to say any of the following:

They're her parents; they must love her
He's her husband; he must love her
They're her parents; they must love her more than her husband does
He's her husband, he must love her more than her parents do
There's only one way to define & express 'love'/'loving actions'.

We don't know. We can guess; we can assume. In the end, seems to me we come to our own conclusions based on our own beliefs and past experiences.

And if you find that automatically supercilious, well, hey... :shrug:


-B

[sui generis]

38. sorry, was a general statement, not name calling

peace -

I agree, but generally speaking parents have very strong attachments to their children, or what's left that looks like their children I suppose.

I don't really have to be in anyone's head to know for a fact that we are genetically programmed to give a damn about faces we recognize; that's why some babies cry when not being held by "mom" or "dad" - we're hardwired to recognize our own gene lines.

It must be even harder to look at something that "lives" and breathes and looks like your daughter and to volitionally override instinct. Maybe I'm a bit more empathetic; I just don't buy it at all that Schiavo's parents are evil or bad people.

[LunaC]

39. From my perspective they're being selfish

They appear to be attempting to serve THEIR needs rather than their daughter's best interests. That's not love in my book. If they were truly empathetic to her plight, they'd have faced reality and let her go long ago

[sui generis]

41. wasn't saying they are sane

just that I empathize with them. Anyway, I don't like this argument either. They believe, however you may judge, that their daughter is alive and can improve with therapy. Therefore they do believe they are acting in their daughter's best interests. The disconnect is that you assume they believe otherwise and still pursue their course of action. That doesn't pass plausibility in my world.

I don't agree with them, but I believe I understand their motivation. I refuse to judge them as humans for being human about their daughter. And if we truly believe that she is brain dead then after fifteen frigging years, what in the hell is the hurry now?

A day or a decade doesn't make a difference to a vegetable. I just think we, on this side, are being a bit myopic too. The mistake was in ever surgically inserting a feeding tube to begin with, and further back in not having her wishes spelled out on paper or a video to avoid all this drama.

[LunaC]

44. Being a "vegetable"

apparently makes no difference to them. To insist that their daughter - or anyone - live in this state is cruel. If you wouldn't want something for yourself then how, in good conscience, can you foist it upon someone else? As I said earlier, their anger with Michael and their attempts to get their OWN way has obliterated their common sense and logic and tainted their "love". They are attempting to serve themselves and no one else.

[sui generis]

48. well one good thing about being here

is that we can superpose our conflicting ideas about their mental state just like an uncollapsed Schroedinger wave equation such that either one makes complete sense and is subjectively the entire truth to either observer.

go ahead and hate them - not my cup of tea. I really don't care that much about it nor claim to know them well enough to hate them or despise them, and certainly I don't really need to be told that I must formulate a judgement about them, especially by my fellow "free thinkers".

I think that's my crankiness with DU the last couple of days - we are every bit as judgemental and cliquish and righteous in our opinions (on the whole) as the people I actually do take care to despise.

On the one hand we sit here and bitch about the evil biased media feeding us crap and on the other hand none of us questions our precious assumptions (or their sources) that are derived second hand nonetheless. Speaking for myself, I have all kinds of warning bells going off over this and I am old and treacherous enough to know to listen to them before I get entangled, especially in this particular kind of judgement.

I can say that because I can imagine a state of mind in myself as a parent that would make it very difficult to let go (in other circumstances), yet I can't imagine that a frailty like that would define me as despiccable or evil.

[LunaC]

49. Two points

I never said I hated them. Again, please don't put words in my mouth. I don't understand, agree with or respect their decisions but that certainly isn't cause for hate. Contempt would be a more appropriate term.

To end this on somewhat of a positive note, your comment about being "old and treacherous" reminds me of one of my favorite bumper stickers: "Youth and skill are no match for age and treachery."

Namaste.

[kalibex]

52. ...

"I think that's my crankiness with DU the last couple of days - we are every bit as judgemental and cliquish and righteous in our opinions (on the whole) as the people I actually do take care to despise."

As compared to what--?

You honestly, honestly thought that you wouldn't see judgementalism in such a large, varied group of people...? (Speaking of Cranky...)

Here's the Deal, people, and it's very Simple:

Any energy any of us spends sneering at and feeling superior to other people - (at this board, that'll include those 'freepers', those 'fundies', those 'right-wing wackjobs') is that much less that we have to spend on making our own lives and the lives of those around us just...a.... little... bit... nicer.....

Our choice.

Hmmm, now was the time spent typing the above well-used, or merely more time wasted....? :evilgrin:

-B

[tblue37]

51. For those of you who love pets as much as I do,

this seems to me to be similar to the decision to take a pet in to be put to sleep.

With all of my pets (and please understand, comparing a human being to a pet is not a way of denigrating the value of human life--my pets are absolutely precious to me), I have always hoped they would die a natural death when their time came, because I know that making the decision to end their lives is heart-wrenchingly terrible.

I had a 15-year-old cat once that I had to have put to sleep because he was suffering. My sister had to have a 6-year-old dog put to sleep because of cancer. I also had to have a 13-year-old Afghan Hound put to sleep because of epileptic seizures that had gotten very bad, very frequent, and completely uncontrollable.

In every case, we suffered terribly having to put a beloved pet to sleep, and we held out hope as long as we could. But when their suffering became more than we could in conscience allow to go on, we finally let them go. We hated the idea of losing our beloved friends, but we hated their suffering even more, and we sacrificed the time we could have had with them in order to spare them further suffering.

Now, if it were one of my children, it would be even harder, obviously. I certainly can understand their desire not to let go of Terri. I am sure I would feel exactly the same. But in the long run, I hope I could let go of the empty shell when my child was no longer there. I think that the Shindler's grief has been cruelly hijacked by rightwing fundies and exploited. I don't think they are capable any longer of making a rational decision. They have been whipped into a state of hysteria and their pain is feeding the RW machine.

[0007]

34. Vindictiveness always strikes back to get 'ya!

In 72 years of living I've never seen it to fail.

[JDPriestly]

47. You are right. How sad.

[Dark]

13. Starving to death is not dignified. n/t

[UdoKier]

20. Nor is lying immobile, braindead, covered in bedsores for 15 years

with tubes feeding you.

Terri's dignity is long gone - Terri is long gone, and she's no longer capable of worrying about her dignity or anything else.

[Dark]

29. I agree that she should be allowed to pass, but make it quick and painless

for the parents.

They shouldn't have had to watch their daughter go through this for fifteen years. They shouldn't have to watch their daughter starve to death.

I wish there was a better way, I do.

but,

NO PARENT SHOULD HAVE TO WATCH THEIR CHILD STARVE TO DEATH.

[Johonny]

31. Thank god

she won't starve to death. It's been 24/7 Terrivison yet some dumb asses still think she'll starve to death, needs a glass of water, can talk, has been given a chance to recover, might of changed her mind in the last 15 years on wanting to die... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[JDPriestly]

46. Apparently there is also a dispute over that.

The LA Times reported yesterday that, for mammals, starvation is the natural way to die, and that it is relatively painless (don't know how they would know that for sure) and allows the body to shut down slowly. I have no expertise in this area, but that is what I read. The physical aspects of death are, I suppose, never truly dignified, regardless of how you die. Death with dignity means sharing the last moments of life as quietly as possible with family, prayerfully saying goodbye. The circus with the courts, the TV cameras, the crowds outside the hospice are what are making Ms. Schiavo's death undignified. This is a time for meditation and respect for Ms. Schiavo's privacy, not for news cameras and publicity. Ms. Schiavo's parents have made a mess of this.

[frankly_fedup2]

50. I agree. It's like they are getting something from all of this media

attention. It seems warped to me. I'm just tired of them saying bad things about her husband. Whenever someone talks about him, they act like he is evil incarnate.

My husband and I were talking about it, and I told him I just wished the husband would give them custody and move on so this poor woman could be left alone. He looked at me and said, "You don't want any heroic measures given to you if you become this way after a certain amount of time, you've told me that. Who else have you told?" I looked at him and just shook my head knowing he was right. He is the only one I have told this to.

He and I both are going to get living wills attached through our wills with our attorney. That way, no one can use either one of us because of some sick political cause.

Tom Delay and Bill Frist have just separated this country more. However, I am glad there are some Republicans that do agree that the congress overstepped their bounds trying to make a law for just one person.

[K8-EEE]

3. The People Who Think She's A-Going To Jesus

Are the ones who are completely freaked out about it and will do ANYTHING to keep her plugged into whatever to keep her in this state indefinitely.

I've noticed that about Xtians in general, nobody is more scared of dying. You can talk them into any war or anything simply by saying "THEY WANT TO KILL US, THEY WANT TO KILL US!!"

[sui generis]

7. yeah - that's a huge contradiction to their professed "faith"

ironic isn't it?

[K8-EEE]

37. A Lot Of The Rapture-ites THINK THEY ARE GETTING OUT ALIVE...

Seriously, that is their big attraction to that, a lot of them think "rapture in our time" means they won't actually die like every human being has done or will do.

They have a very, very hard time with the whole concept, even though they belive they hold a front row ticket to the good afterlife.

IMO, I think psychologically, they are all afraid that their true thoughts/doubts/actions qualify them more for hell, thus their freakout/denial.

[sui generis]

40. oh please please please may the rapture happen

and whoosh them all away to their lovely angry god who won't let them have sex except in the missionary position and only to make babies so we can get on with our lives here in reality.

I'm going to hell anyway, and looking forward to it.

[DARE to HOPE]

45. No, NOT "Xtians in general"...true Christians are NOT afraid of death

Just buried a dear church member this morning, or my clergyman husband did. Fought cancer bravely, but not afraid, at great peace about her own death, and looking forward to a reunion with the husband she'd lost the year before.

This is the week of the year we Christians call Holy Week. It is holy to us because we believe that Christ was indeed dead, dying on a cross for us. But He was Resurrected, the "first fruits." And what a gift.

Real Christians are also for PEACE, not war, for feeding the HUNGRY, not hoarding by the rich. And we do not fear, or at least, we have hope, as we approach our own death.

Look at Ashley's courage with Nichols last week. That is what Christian faith looks like.

[Nite Owl]

4. I missed the beginning of

Mike last night. He's sooo good at getting to the point. I read something in all the stuff out there about this that the parents said she would go to hell if she died this way. I don't get it at all. She isn't disconnecting the tube. Maybe the fact that she wanted to and it is being done? Why are they so afraid, one would think, that they would be so anxious to meet their maker and live in heaven forever after all it's all us liberals who are not going to be there according to them. There is just no logic to what they say or do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. That statement of her parents that she'd "go to hell" if the tube

was disconnected shows that they have no understanding of theology. No theology that I've ever heard of, not even rabid fundamentalist theology, says that you go to hell for what other people do TO you.

I think those poor people have completely lost it.

[Bridget Burke]

9. That only makes sense if they think she's going to Hell anyway....

Are they just trying to postpone her eventual Damnation?

Wonderful parents.

[Hand]

21. What kind of God would be so petty?

A just God? A merciful God? A forgiving God (as if there was anything to forgive)? A great God? Even a jealous God?

Nope, it just doesn't compute...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. As I said, her parents have

gone completely off the deep end.

[Hand]

30. Yep.

I was wondering yesterday about how much sleep any of these people (Schindlers, Jebby, Bugman, Catkiller, et al.) have been getting lately. Probably not a hell of a lot. Sleep deprived folks who are already in a frenzy of whatever almost inevitably slip into outright clinical psychosis...

Quick! Get the butterfly net! :evilgrin:

[radfringe]

11. question: What would happen to MSM if

they had their bush*news feed-tube removed?

[ewagner]

15. Good question

I can't believe how the cable news types are so openly pushing the buschco line....

[Hand]

22. Perhaps...

A great peaceful silence would settle over the land.

[lebkuchen]

16. If so afraid of death, why highest juvenile execution rate in the world?

The US is schizoid.

[Eloriel]

27. Because we also hate and fear our youth

and yes, the U.S. is schizoid. Very sick society, and getting sicker (tho it will probably implode soon enough).

[lebkuchen]

35. I can't

argue with that.

[Hand]

18. You are correct, sir...

Death is the great equalizer. Rich, poor, black, white, good, evil, fundie, atheist... the reaper comes for all. "WHAT???? YOU MEAN ETERNAL LIFE DOESN'T SAVE ME FROM DYING?!?!?!?!?!? CALL MY LAWYER!!!! THIS CAN'T HAPPEN TO ME!!!! I HAVE A TRUST FUND!!!!!"

Fragged, bagged, and tagged. They hate the truth of impermanence as much as they hate all other forms of truth. Or as a spiritual tecaher of mine once said, "See, the thing about the truth is: It's not a lie."

They live lies. They love lies.

Maunder, maunder...

:nopity:

[UdoKier]

32. As an atheist, I can tell you I hate it too.

The fact that I will no longer be SUCKS, IMO, but that's my emotions and ego. On an intellectual level, I understand that that's the way the biosphere works, and it works well.

You wanna live forever? be reborn as a giant redwood and pray that the Bushie types don't cut you down - and you'll still only get 2,000 years or so. But who the hell wants to be a redwood for 2000 years? In exchange for the short lifespan of a human being, we are given the opportunity to learn and experience so very much.

And yet, most of us just opt for the repetitive idiocy of TV every night and church on Sunday morning...

[sui generis]

43. EXACTLY - doesn't being an atheist make life

and consciousness infinitely more precious? This is your one shot - a piece of the universe grew some eyeballs and a brain, and will take it back when the warranty expires. Don't waste it.

Even shakespeare was close to the money:

"life is but a stage and we are merely players" (paraphrased), I would add that we also write our own script. You are who you make yourself, and if you are working on the here and now whether or not you believe in the hereafter you will probably have a better life than if you just place all your bets on the ever after.

[Catherine Vincent]

19. Malloy is the bomb.

He makes a lot of sense.

[Zinfandel]

25. No one better!

Malloy is the best!

[kliljedahl]

28. Eat heathy, exercise

Don't smoke, don't drink Die Anyway!!!


http://www.kliljedahl.net