I'm not a doctor but I'm noticing something for the first time re Terri

[karlrschneider]

seeing the various videos on CNN just now. Her left and right eye never have fusion (I mean they don't "point" in the same direction.) Sometimes they are exophoric, sometimes endophoric. I do know a bit about the subject having spent 20 years designing ophthalmic machinery and instruments...and I'm pretty sure this is an indication that there is no ability to focus, or probably even "see." Any ophthalmologists out there to comment?

[drdon326]

1. Havent noticed but

its not really surprising given her brain damage.

[FreedomAngel82]

2. I've also noticed

How she is always looking in the same direction. The pupils never move.

[ktowntennesseedem]

6. I think I saw her eyes move side to side slowly, just a bit.

But it looked totally random. Didn't look like she was focusing on anything; just enough to give false hope.

[riverwalker]

3. she is blind in one eye

according to the MD's examination report I read.

[brook]

4. I have heard...

several people say she is "partially blind" and/or "blind in one eye".Not sure who said it though.

[LiberalFighter]

15. What caused her blindness?

[brook]

33. I don't know.

It might stem from the lack of oxygen to her brain at the time she collapsed due to her bullimia - ? A doctor would have to posit the possibilities. I'm a layman.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

34. If you look at her CT scan, you will see a complete loss of visual cortex.

Her eyes (retina, etc.) may be perfectly intact, but the lateral geniculate that relays visual signal and the primary visual cortex that interprets the visual signal are TOAST.

The accommodation problems, such as the ones you describe, typically are a harbinger of either cranial nerve damage and/or lower mid-brain issues.

In other words, the picture tube is intact but the transceiver and relays are completely busted.

JB (clinical neuroscientist when not in DU form)

[LiberalFighter]

42. How is that different from the usual blindness?

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

44. cortical blindness (Schiavo) vs. peripheral blindness (Ray Charles)

They are both blind, but for vastly different reasons. Schiavo has NO CAPACITY to even visualize internally (e.g., dreams, mental imagery, etc.); whereas, people with peripheral blindness (damage only affecting the eyes) will retain mental imagery, dreams, and other internal visual representations. Additionally, in the peripheral blindness cases, since the visual cortex is still intact but not receiving information from the eyes it will sometimes just create things on the fly in the form of what are called, "Charles Bonnet hallucinations," which are analogous to those experienced by people in sensory deprivation chambers.

JB

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. She's not "looking"

in the sense that you and I look at things. Her eye movements are involuntary and not functional. I don't know if she's blind, but I do know that she hasn't a clue to as whatever pictures are making it to whatever is left of her brain.

[karlrschneider]

7. Yes, of course...I understand that, what I was getting at is that

"looking" and/or "seeing" cannot be accomplished (or any processing of the optic nerve impulses) without a functional cortex. At least that's what I believe. I guess I'm thinking it's like a camera with no film...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

10. That's a great analogy,

except I think the camera's got a defective shutter. And lens.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. I just talked to a doctor friend about this,

and his impression, from seeing the video, is that she's "gorked out." Not a medical term, certainly, but I'd guess that those MDs who don't have a political or religious axe to grind would agree. He also said that somebody who has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years won't have much useful brain left and will never recover. But then, we knew that. Only her parents and the fundie freepers think otherwise. I also believe Frist and DeLay and Shrub, et al., also know very well that she has no consciousness and no hope of recovery. But she and her desperate, deluded, exploited parents sure make mighty damn fine political footballs.

I do believe there's a very excellent chance that our fine Republican Congressmaggots will barbecue in hell for this.

[shelley806]

12. I am a Doctor and agree with your assessment completely...as would

ANY SANE, COMPASSIONATE HUMAN BEING, which these "Congressmaggots" are obviously not!

[millertime]

13. Wow, you've got so much compassion.

We're still killing this woman and I do not think it is humane.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

21. Nobody is killing her; she's effectively dead, and has been for 15 years.

Her brain is gone. The person she once was has died. She has no consciousness and cannot suffer, since her cerebral cortex has liquefied and her body is "alive" only because her brain stem still functions enough to manage autonomic functions and reflexive movevments. The fact that her eyes are open doesn't mean she's awake. Because she has no consciousness she feels no pain. In any event, people dying in hospice care typically are not given food or water but are kept medicated as necessary, and they die peacefully and without any pain. Anyone who works in a hospice can tell you this, and I've seen it. There's no lack of compassion in letting this poor woman's body die. Keeping her "alive" (against her stated wishes) makes her parents and the religious wack jobs feel better. That's it.

[millertime]

31. OK, I can buy into all of that...but,

However, do we REALLY know? I was listening to XM while driving the hinterlands today and heard some talking heads (conservatives) interviewing doctors that believe that Terri could actually have some type of recovery. Were they full of Sh--? Maybe.

I'm just not comfortable pulling the tube, that's all. If she could tell us, write it down, sign language, then we would really know if she wants to die.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

37. She CAN'T write it down!

She can't use sign language! She can't communicate at all BECAUSE SHE HAS NO BRAIN! Every single doctor who has ever actually examined and treated her have testified, over and over, to many different courts, that she has NO cerebral cortex and cannot ever recover. Ever. No matter what. Brain tissue doesn't grow back. She doesn't "want" to die now because she's unconscious. But the evidence, characterized by something like NINE different courts as clear and convincing, is that she previously said she didn't want to be kept alive by artificial means. What the hell else is there??

[mondo joe]

46. She did say what she wanted, before this happened.

Just like most people who have life support removed.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andy_Stephenson]

30. Ummmm I am not killing anyone

I am sitting here reading DU and other fine webzines.

[Auntie Bush]

39. Maybe you could use some more Millertime and then come

back and talk to us. Sorry....couldn't resist.
But I disagree...my mother starved to death (Alzheimer's) and she died very peacefully and was in no pain. I was just talking to a friend tonight and her Mother quit eating a month before she died of colon cancer and she had no problem with pain from not eating. She also died very peacefully and her cognitive functions were very much intact. She could have eaten any time she wanted to but chose not to.

[mondo joe]

45. It's inhumane to force feed someone in a zombie state who doesn't

wamt to be kept alive that way.

[LibertyLover]

41. Gorked

My husband, who did neurological monitoring during orthopedic and neuro surgical procedures for years at Johns Hopkins and U of MD Med Center, too one look at Mrs. Schiavo's CAT scan and used the same term.

[signmike]

9. I'm no doctor, but I know when I'm losing me patience.

Ak-k-k-k-k-k-k-k
__________________Popeye The Sailor

[yojon]

11. In residency, we used to say

The lights are on but nobody's home. It describes a tragic situation pretty well.

[LiberalFighter]

14. How does that compare to blind people?

[merh]

16. Read the guardians report, he addresses this.

Actually on one of the videos that the kooks rarely play, (I think Larry King played it on his show) the guardian is discussing how her one eye goes off in one direction, that she wasn't focusing on him. The guardian that spent 20 or 30 days with her basically said he wanted her to respond, he wanted to will her to make contact with her. He was desparately trying to connect with Terri, but she wasn't there.

The report is awesome. If you need the link I will find it for you.

:hi:

[karlrschneider]

I've seen it, thanks. Lots of references here on DU lately.

:-)

[janx]

18. ambylopia in one eye--

"lazy eye"--

Apparently Terri had one eye that didn't track as well as the other. We've all known people who have had this condition.

But in the videos, this effect is compounded by the fact that she can't really track at all. Her eyes don't follow anything and move around a lot, reflexively. If there's a sudden sound, for instance, she has the brain stem capacity to react to that--as in the tiny video clip in which someone yells at her.

[karlrschneider]

19. Yes, that's pretty common but if I recall, the ambylopic eye usually

'looks' in the same "general direction." (I have a very small bit of ambylopia myself)... is there a record of her having it to a significant degree before the heart attack? Perhaps there is, I haven't seen it.

[janx]

35. Well Karl, she doesn't look like a lizard in the videos--

I mean her eyes are not going willy-nilly, independently--and yes, there is a record of ambylopic activity in one eye before her demise.

[fishnfla]

20. If her visual cortex is shot, her vision is for shit

I havent seen any videotape, but she 'prolly is exhibiting "search nystagmus" which are the random eye movements of cerebral visual disorders. It might appear as if her eyes are crossing then.

EDIT: technical term: "cortical blindness"

[hector459]

23. These video that they keep showing are from 2002

She is much worse now.

[UTUSN]

24. Not "opthamalogist" Just CAN'T DIAGNOSE FROM VIDEO

to start with. I just might be giving myself a cardiac thing.

**********QUOTE************

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2270&ncid=2270&e=2&u=/krwashbureau/20050319/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_braindamagedwoman_guardian_wa

.... Wolfson was appointed by a Florida court in the fall of 2003 to be Schiavo's guardian ad litem, or guardian at law, to deduce Schiavo's best interests and represent neither her husband nor her parents but Terri Schiavo herself.

This makes Wolfson one of the very few people to have spent extended time with Schiavo and gauged her level of awareness without having a vested interest at stake.

In the end, after long hours at Schiavo's bedside and after poring over 30,000 pages of legal documents, Wolfson concluded that Schiavo was indeed in a permanent vegetative state. ....

But Schiavo never made eye contact. When Wolfson visited her when her parents were there, she never made eye contact with them either, he said. And for all of Wolfson's pleadings and coaxing, he never got what he most wanted: a sign. ....

Wolfson was dismayed to learn Friday that Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers, claimed that Schiavo tried to speak. "Terri does not speak," he said. "To claim otherwise reduces her to a fiction." ....

******UNQUOTE***********

[karlrschneider]

25. Her father said on CNN a few mins ago that she DOES speak.

:eyes:

[UTUSN]

26. What I Remember, I Usually Agree with You

You don't agree with her father do you?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2270&ncid=2270&e=2&u=/krwashbureau/20050319/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_braindamagedwoman_guardian_wa

.... Wolfson was appointed by a Florida court in the fall of 2003 to be Schiavo's guardian ad litem, or guardian at law, to deduce Schiavo's best interests and represent neither her husband nor her parents but Terri Schiavo herself.

This makes Wolfson one of the very few people to have spent extended time with Schiavo and gauged her level of awareness without having a vested interest at stake.

In the end, after long hours at Schiavo's bedside and after poring over 30,000 pages of legal documents, Wolfson concluded that Schiavo was indeed in a permanent vegetative state. ....

But Schiavo never made eye contact. When Wolfson visited her when her parents were there, she never made eye contact with them either, he said. And for all of Wolfson's pleadings and coaxing, he never got what he most wanted: a sign. ....

Wolfson was dismayed to learn Friday that Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers, claimed that Schiavo tried to speak. "Terri does not speak," he said. "To claim otherwise reduces her to a fiction." ....

[karlrschneider]

32. Uh, no I think her papa is a liar, that's why I put the rolling-eye emo

like this :eyes:

If she had talked, you can be damn sure somebody would have gotten a video of it, donchathink?

[UTUSN]

40. O.K., Thanks. I Knew You Were a Bro. Hard to Keep Up. n/t

[moobu2]

27. Well he's said a lot of things that arent true over the years,

what's one more untruth.

[Ilsa]

29. I wonder if she speaks as well as Shrub?

Wouldn't be saying much even if she did.

[janx]

36. No doubt she spoke much better than he ever did.

Just ask the husband who remembers her and who is trying to honor her memory.

[LSK]

38. her cerebral cortex is gone

http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcortex.htm

[Bouncy Ball]

43. With hardly any cerebral cortex, that would be expected.

She cannot focus, nor can she "track" objects.