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[Name removed]

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[blm]

1. No kidding...did you see the new ads running in NH?

Bush will lose the white male vote, too, imo. These ads are incredible.

I just watched them on QuckTime.

http://www.johnkerry.com/

[alexwcovington]

2. And things have changed how?

I'm sorry, the view's a tad different from North Dakota :P Could ya help me out here?

[KC21304]

7. You mean folks up there like to be lied to ?

They are enjoying hearing about how many of our troops are coming back in body bags ? Doesn't sound right to me. I can't believe they are not paying attention.

[alexwcovington]

12. It's worse

They're still gung-ho. So far Nodaks have only had to deal with one kid in a bodybag and a handful of wounded.

It sucks living up here sometimes, my only hope is someday I'll change things around...

[Name removed]

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[alexwcovington]

11. Sure I can see it...

I'm talking about the idiots I'm surrounded by up here!

[disgruntella]

20. oh, i can relate

I'm just west of you. The clue train is slower to reach the High Plains, isn't it? :)

[calimary]

26. Well, guys, take some consolation...

First off, if you're in the upper midwest, it sounds as though you are in states with few electoral votes. I'd be far more concerned if I sensed that around my turf (I'm in California).

Second, I am noticing a phenomenon around me. More people standing outside the karate school and in the store and other places who are now openly talking about what a disgrace bush is. Also, in the last couple of weeks, I have actually heard more people uttering phrases EXACTLY like mine (and without any prompting from me!): "we have GOT to get him OUT OF THERE!" Or "I LOATHE bush." Or "I am determined to do EVERYTHING in my power to get him out of office." Seeing another "Buck Fush" bumper sticker. Seeing more "War is Not the Answer" bumper stickers and other peace stickers in much greater numbers now. In an office, it would be described as "water cooler talk." And it's turning, from where I sit.

People either are changing their minds and starting to come around, or they're no longer as afraid to vocalize their disgust openly. I am seeing this more and more frequently now.

Like the teacher in the pick-up line after school who stuck her head in my open car window and smiled (teacher I hardly know - she started teaching in the younger classes after my kids had moved up) and said "I like your bumper sticker (meaning my War is Not the Answer sticker). I have one on my car! We have GOT to get these people out of there!" Then she started talking about a guy she'd heard on KPFK - representing "From the Wilderness." I had no idea she was that hardcore!

I have also noticed something else. People I know who remain died-in-the-wool rethugs are not nearly so smug and in-yer-face about it. Some of them seem rather subdued lately. I think I know why.

[disgruntella]

27. yeah, i'm sure the tide is turning here too

Just not as noticably. Particularly in the eastern part of my state, where I happen to live - many more Democrats are in the west.

Also, I should mention have been pretty antisocial lately so it's not like I've got my "finger on the pulse" of public opinion. (More like my fingers on the keyboard of... DU!)

[redwitch]

3. I feel hopeful again

even hubby has stopped saying * will win in a landslide. Hubby is not rethug, just feeling pessimistic all winter and spring. Drip, drip, drip says I! What rethugs are thinking I cannot begin to guess. They are strange beasts!

[disgruntella]

4. i hope they feel as sick as i did

back in March 2003 when the war was starting, and everyone in my office was wondering why the protestors wouldn't just shut the hell up and let the "cakewalk" begin :mad:

I'm still feeling sick but at least a little vindicated now that the tide is turning.

[Bush_has_Parvo]

13. Right on, Disgruntella!!!

I remember when the statues came down, and some people at work actually got pissed off at me for not jumping up and down and cheering. I got some pretty cold looks that day, now most of those assholes don't even mention the war or *.

[disgruntella]

22. Thanks

Just so I don't feel like a hypocrite, I wasn't a person who was vocal about my opposition to the war, and I didn't attend any protests. But I didn't see a damn thing to get excited about -- massive U.S. deployments, the threat to Iraqi civilians, the lack of international support, the whole patriotic jingoistic package. And the more I read on sites like Alternet, the more I opposed it.

Looking back, knowing that my "gut feelings" of opposition were justified by the facts, I wish I would have done more.

[calimary]

28. Hey, disgruntella! Do NOT feel bad.

"Looking back, knowing that my "gut feelings" of opposition were justified by the facts, I wish I would have done more."

Dahlink, you DID. You started to read. You started to research and seek out other views than just the mainstream, biased ones. You did do more. Certainly FAR more than the average schmuck who lives by the word of Rush or Hannity or O'Reilly or one of those human holes. You cared enough to get off your duff and seek out the truth. That's a LOT. Especially in those times when apathy and futility and desolation were the watchwords of the day. When we against the war were being flipped off and denounced and demonized and sneered at and called names. It was hard to be at some of those early protests. I saw it for myself. Sometimes I felt very alone. Sometimes I actually wondered if my reading of the situation was correct and whether I'd be justified. One of those things where, for the sake of the troops, you almost hope you're wrong about something and that the "cakewalk" sales pitch and the jingoistic patriotic wave-the-flag-and-wrap-yourself-in-it crap would really prove to be true. We all know what happened.

Don't dump on yourself because you didn't do more. You did what you could. Hell, you did more than most of 'em did. And you have nothing to be ashamed of. You educated yourself and became more firm in your convictions. You sought out the truth and girded yourself with it. Those who still blindly follow are just that - blind. To be informed is EVERYTHING. And to be informed you can't just sit back and wait to be spoonfed. Until recently we haven't even had a single person in the media speaking out (except maybe Paul Krugman). Now, at least, a few appear to be waking up. Think how far ahead of the curve YOU are!

What you can do is continue to keep yourself informed. Be watchful. Be vigilant. In the Harry Potter books, there comes a character called Mad-Eye Moody. He's a wild-and-wooly wizard who, from the looks of him, has been through more than a few serious magical conflicts and confrontations. He winds up, I think in the fourth book, as the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts, the witchcraft and wizarding school Harry Potter attends. He teaches his students stuff that's rather advanced, to say the least, and tells them some pretty serious and sometimes frightening truths. Some people object, saying it's not appropriate for the youngsters or that it's too scary and too out there. But, considering what ol' Mad-Eye knows is out there that they'll eventually have to face and do battle with, he admonishes them repeatedly: "CONSTANT VIGILANCE!" And "you've GOT to KNOW!!!" I kinda feel like I'm Mad-Eye Moody with my kids and some of my friends. CONSTANT VIGILANCE! You ABSOLUTELY HAVE GOT TO KNOW!" It's a MOST fitting and appropriate metaphor for what we're going through here in America right now.

And you do.

[Boom_cha]

5. Shades of '92...

They must think they're having a flashback

[FarLeftRage]

6. I think they better start fearing for their lives

They've pushed us too far and too fast and now it's beginning to "blow back" on them.

People are miserable and angry...

I think things will get worse for the repuKKKes more than they've ever imagined.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. I think we'd better start fearing for our own

The greater their cognitive dissonance, the more likely the hard right will be to resort to violence. And they won't lash out at their own. They'll blame the left for "losing" Iraq.

[KC21304]

8. Like Bill said today in Iowa.

They must think it is '91. Bush in the White House, war in Iraq, Economy in the tank.

[bandy]

10. Our "died in the wool, born again Baptist repug friend" said

he wants to kick the TV and put his foot up *'s butt whenever he sees him. That's encouraging!!!!!! I for sure feel the same except I can't watch him.

[calimary]

19. Hope there's lots more where THAT came from!

I'm hoping that bush is such a piece of not toast but charcoal by then that he will singlehandedly have set back the rethug/conservative movement by - oh - maybe a few decades?

[Starpass]

14. I understand from the pundits that when Zogby Poll hit 45%

approval rating the repukes got scared to death. That is when they demanded that he had to make his prime time speech to "explain" why he wanted the 87 billion, etc. They were not about to just have to deal with the shit. They thought that speech would bring back his numbers and make it safe for them. But, as CNN poll indicated a few days after the speech, he fell in their poll. We need to keep pushing until a few more polls show up in the 40's and then you will see them start arguing with him and desserting him and then he will fall further and they will, thus, panic even further. Apparently they screamed at Rove and Rove told them that he had said all along that this was going to be a "close" race (hmmmmm....close enough to steal, Mr. Rove...did you promise them that??)

[Athletic Grrl]

23. This from the administration

...that doesn't pander to the polls. Riiiiight.

:eyes:

(edit: clarity)

[LoZoccolo]

35. I don't mean to question your cred but...

...where do you get all this from?

[zeemike]

15. They are worried

I noticed it listening to Hannity go on and on with a kind of despoliation that shows when you are worried. and what causes that worry is the strong rhetoric they are hearing from the candidates as well as other democrats. In there gut they know what that means, but as a defense they will lean on there ideology for comfort. (how can you louse if you have the right ideology?)

[Nottingham]

16. My Republicans are Uncomfortable!

They didn't like Bush's Incompetence but they still are Bush Sheeple

they are getting worried about the Price tag

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. My Republicans are shitting on the rug.

You must have got your Republicans at a better dealership.

[ewagner]

21. A couple of thingsstill bother me

First concerning the economy, the conservative spin machine is spewing out the "things are getting better, the economy is strong" message, day-after-day. They're actually trying to talk up the economy. I wonder if there is something they can do to cause a short bump in the economy before the elections.

Second, concerning the war, we're hearing the spin that the terrible "librul media" isn't reporting all the success over in Iraq, just the bad news. That is being spun over and over and over. The sheeple who desperately want to believe him are given reasons to do so.

Something dramatic has to happen to expose Bush for the liar and nincompoop he really is..........

[huckleberry]

18. "Can you say one-term president?"

is the question I asked one of my fellow bus riders who's a really religious right repug, and his answer -

"I know, that's why I didn't take the job with the administration." (He was just offered a job with State Department.)

[AlabamaYankee]

24. The traditional Republicans are feeling homeless

My father is typical of the traditional, non-ideologue - but wouldn't think of voting for a Democrat - Republican who have bee frozen out by the current regime. He doesn't like the deficits, and is really upset by the idiotic iraq invasion. We can actually talk politics to some extent.

[opihimoimoi]

25. They are green with illness after choking on all that CROW they had to eat

Ralphing all over the place, on their knees hugging the toilet, Oh My, what a sight.

[kayleybeth]

29. From what I read on their board

Most of the FReepers are not too upset. They think shrub is going to spring all those WMDs on us any day now, and they're convinced that everything in Iraq is just swell. They're not worried about Bush's poll numbers because Rush told them not to be worried. They also think (and I Swear I Am Not Making This Up) that the economy is currently BOOMING, and they are predicting a landslide for shrub next year. I sometimes wonder what planet they are living on.

[uptohere]

30. a little reality, they're laughing at the candidate catfights

the smarter ones knew all along that polls would do this and that they have not begun to fight with that supertanker full of cash they have sitting in the dock which gets new shipments daily.

Yes things changed over summer, better check back next summer before you make much of any perceived boot shaking.

And the dumber ones... well they are dumb and don't know what to think so they pop another Bud and fart.

[Imajika]

32. The Republicans whom are realist...

..understand that the election is over a year away and they have even odds or better to win in 04'.

For a political message forum I am just constantly amazed at some of the absurd comments I read. Sometimes when I log in I feel like I am in some kind of alternate universe where the real world is brushed aside and is replaced with fantasyland.

Here are just some of the more overly optimistic posts on this thread alone.

"Bush will lose the white male vote, too"

There is almost zero chance that this will happen. Bob Dole even won the white male vote. Clinton won something like only 39% of the white male vote in 1992, and 44% in 1996 - and he was a moderate Democrat. It is the lack of white males voters that could spell longterm trouble for the GOP - they have no trouble winning this demographic.

"even though you can't tell that the worm has turned"

How many times do we have to hear about the worm turning. Does anyone remember 83'? Reagans ratings were in the toilet. Look what happened. Politics is cyclic. Sometimes a President is up, sometimes down. When approval ratings zoom up, they must eventually come down to a realistic level. Bush has the support of about half the country. He always did. He probably always will. All he needs is just a little help from the mushy middle in 04' and he can win.

"People either are changing their minds and starting to come around"

SOME people are changing their minds. The majority of Americans are not clammoring for a Democrat. Democrats are clammoring for a Democrat louder than before because the shadow of 9-11 has lifted. Republicans still support Bush, and they always will. Independents will shift around with many making up their minds right before the election.

"I'm still feeling sick but at least a little vindicated now that the tide is turning."

Did you never think "the tide would turn". Ofcourse Bush wouldn't keep those stratospheric numbers. But the public has not turned on Bush in any meaningful way.....not yet anyway - and I doubt they will.

"People are miserable and angry"

That is as big an overstatement as I've ever seen. Despite everything, things are still going reasonable well in this country overall. The general public is not walking around miserable and angry. I think a more appropriate statement that really covers a majority of "people" is that they are anxious about the future.

I agree that Bush is going to have a bumpy ride from here on out. It all began when no WMD's turned up. They promised WMD's and delivered zip. It is a wonder that Bush's ratings on Iraq are as resiliant as they are considering this fact. I do sense a better opportunity to beat Bush than I have in recent months. Further, I am certainly pleased at watching Bush's poll numbers return to reality.

But the only Republicans who are panicking are the ones that react to media events like some of the Democrats here. Republicans that are in panic mode would be overreacting to reality and media cycles, just like Democrats overreact with endless predictions of Bush's collapse after ENRON, Bush Knew, Energy Papers, Niger/Uranium, etc, etc.

Infact, it actually worries me a bit that Bush has hit a downcycle now. It is too early for my tastes. If he drops too far in the polls, the natural instinct of the press will be to go after someone else. Believe you me, the media will turn its collective sights on our frontrunner or eventual nominee, it is only a matter of time. And when they do, it will be silly to predict doom and gloom for our side too. In politics, everything can change in a week. Everything.

Election 04' will be a huge, nasty, drawn out battle. The one thing I would agree on is that Bush is vulnerable. If we run a good candidate and smart campaign we can win. You can make fun of my pessimism at the victory party, in the meantime lets keep some perspective and stop writing off Bush so early.

Imajika

[disgruntella]

33. you make some good points

Except, of course, when you criticized my post. :) I'm not going to apologize for being pleased public opinion shows some signs of shifting. This is reflected not only in polls, but also in several people's posts about formerly Republican and Independent friends/acquaintances who are showing interest in voting Democrat.

But I'm also not implying that it's "sunshine and lollipops" from here on out. And I don't think most people here believe that the 2004 election will be a quick and easy victory for the Dems. I think people on this forum are just enjoying a little optimism before the really tough battles begin.

YMMV

[Imajika]

34. disgruntella

"Except, of course, when you criticized my post. :)"

Sorry, my intent was not really to single out any individual or posts. I am also aware that I took some quotes out of context. I was trying to make a broader point that reactions here are too often extreme. The lows are just too LOW, and the highs are way too HIGH. I am just cautioning realism. I don't want to see crushing letdowns everytime the forums collective expectations are dashed.

From reading you comments I know you got the jist of it. Didn't necessarily mean to criticize you.

Thanks for the response.

Imajika

[disgruntella]

36. no problem

I was really just teasing when I referred to my post, and I didn't see it as being overly critical on a personal level or anything

I believe I understand what you're saying - overconfidence would be a big mistake. And DU can certainly run to extremes, then again, that's sometimes why I come here!

Have a good evening