I will be taking a pass on going to any bring the troops home rallies

[NNN0LHI]

US troops run RPG gauntlet with guns and God

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12182352.htm

TIKRIT, Iraq, Sept 14 (Reuters) - <snip>For the convoy riders, their success is thanks to God.

The soldiers often explain they overcome their fear on patrol by reciting their officer's refrain: "We are immortal until God decides otherwise."

Russell, a 40-year-old teetotaller from Oklahoma with five children, strums hymns on a guitar before a sortie and reminds his men nobody has been wounded on one of his convoys.

A letter from his eight-year-old daughter inspires the commander. "Dear Dad, hope you kill the bad guys. Love, Patricia."

But it is his unswerving faith that drives him through RPG alley. "I truly believe we are protected by God," he said.

more

[w13rd0]

1. Perhaps he can find one of those magic stones...

...the protects Saddam. An 8year old, "hope you kill"..."I truly believe we are protected by God"...no, no injection of religious fanatacism and crusade mentality here...

[catzies]

2. Nope, none. You're right.

After all, they are Fair and Balanced. :nuke:

[LittleApple81]

27. love the quote in you sig line! n/t

[Newcastle]

3. That so many of our troops are misguided

is a fact that cannot be denied. So many of our citizens are misguided. What goes around comes around. We still have to take heart in the fact that we who opposed the war are the only ones who truly supported the troops where it really counted and that so many veterans of former wars were on our side.

[disgruntella]

4. make sure to read the whole article

Not all the soldiers are buying into the madness:

<snip>
After one RPG flew over his head, Specialist Ian Mastro asked to leave Russell. He volunteered for 12-hour overnight sentry duty so that he no longer has to leave the base.

With an unlit Marlboro hanging from his lips, Mastro, 25, retells how Russell jumped from his truck and strode straight into the middle of a well-lit intersection taunting the unseen assailants. "Is that all you got? Is that all you got?"

"I had to get out of there," Mastro said. "I can't deal with that whole being stupid sitting around trying to be shot at. Man, it was scary."
</snip>

That doesn't excuse the mentality of the other ones, although honestly, in that situation I don't know what I would have to do to survive. I sure hope the mental health care system for veterans is ready for this...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

6. If I may say, the military should not be....

in the business of promoting religion!!! It IS obvious that Specialist Ian Mastro, who is serving his country honorably does NOT want to be part of this religious FREAK FEST!

I support his decision to stay at his military base away from this nonsense! If I were in his position I would not want to be with someone who would put his life in such a stupid position which in turn would affect my own life or in this case Specialist Mastro's!!!

[ewagner]

7. Key words

I think these were the key words in your reply:

in that situation I don't know what I would have to do to survive

I wasn't in Viet Nam but I was isolated on a base with no exposure to the "outside" and no media to read except Stars & Stripes. It took me exactly 30 days to buy into the gung-ho shit. When I look back on it, I can neither believe nor justify the way I felt except to say that when my buddies were flying off on missions and not coming back, I felt enough rage to want to get "into the game" like they were.

I understand where some of these troops are coming from. I don't condemn them for it. This is what isolation, fear, guilt and war do to any human being. It's entirely predictable.....and eternally sad.

[Tinoire]

5. Yeah but you know what Don

For each one like that, I'd say there are 1.5 - 2 who are scared shitless and frightened and so totally bewildered over there.

Over 2,500 have already gone AWOL. Can you imagine how bad it is for some that 2,500 would just turn their back and venture alone into a country where they don't speak the language and are hated?

Had this happened a few years earlier I would have been one of those troops who desperately wanted to not be there and I would have so appreciated your support .
----

<snip>

We are a communications unit and I thought we would be providing communications support for units that needed it. We of course did this but almost 99 percent of the communications we provide are calls home and internet so people can check their AOL email. Almost none of what we do is actually military related. There is also the problem that there is TOO much signal units here in theater, we have teams providing phone support for 1-2 people. Do the taxpayers know that there are units here that are so under utilized that their missions are hard to come by? If we were actually providing a real mission, I would have no problem with this but to extend us to the point that our unit will have been gone for 15 months total and we have active duty units going home in half that time is ridiculous. We are over here sleeping to the sounds of mortar rounds and gunfire on our perimiter several months after our President declared the end of the "war."

Now to make matters worse, our President wants twice the amount of money to help rebuild Iraq, while our spouses deal with the shambles of a formerly powerful economy. I have seen friends lose their jobs while over here in Iraq. My wife is losing her job due to the economy and there are a fraction of the jobs there used to be. We are supposedly protected under the Soldiers Sailors Act to protect our jobs, but what about the long term harm long term and constant deployments will impact our future employment? An employer cannot discriminate against National Guardsmen and Reservists but just like overweight people, and minorities or women might suffer from, how can you tell you were not called for an interview because your in the military part time? My employer alone has had 8 of us called up and is trying to deal with the shortage. Then to have to hear on the news that there is little or no evidence of weapons of mass destruction, Americans getting killed or wounded ever few hours will there be any support from America? To add further insult we are never told when we are coming home and that the U.S. is having problems getting support from the International Community for a war we went against the international community in the first place.

www.bringthemhomenow.org/sound/main.html

[redwitch]

10. source of info on the 2500 awol?

I've not read about this, can you tell me more? thanks.

[Tinoire]

11. I'll see if I can find a link

It was posted in LBN a few months ago and to be frank, the numbers could be disputed. It was reported in a Turkish paper.

I'll see if I can find it.

[Tinoire]

15. Ok- Found it

www.smirkingchimp.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26717&forum=17 (but you ahve to be registered and damn I can't remember my password or what e-mail address I used to register!)


But whoa, you're in luck! Just found the archived thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=37526 with link to the original article: http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20030727115721898

Like I said, it's from a Turkish paper so I won't walk over coals for the accuracy of the number but I do know from inside knowledge that there have been quite a few AWOLS.

Peace

[redwitch]

19. thanks tinoire- interesting thread

I had not read about this. While I doubt the number, I don't doubt that it has happened. Someday maybe we'll hear the full story from someone who did it- it would be rather fascinating. I would be terrified to attempt desertion in a land so far away whose culture, language, terrain are all so different from my own. And then there is the exiled status (unless amnesty declared). Still, for me anyway, it would beat participating in something that I believed to be morally, ethically, legally wrong.

[Tinoire]

28. My reaction also (in that thread)

I really pity those who did and hope they come home safe. Pardoned.

I pity them all and damn Bush and Co to hell. I'll never forget that terrified look on the face of that Black cook when she was first filmed as a hostage.

Whoooa. Department of Peace all the way. Things have to change and the time is NOW.

Peace

[NNN0LHI]

13. The ones you point out should do what this soldier below has done then

6 months in the brig seems like it would be a small price to pay for not having to be involved in this type of insanity. As for these guys though, I feel better knowing they are over there and my family and I are over here. A whole hell of a lot better actually. I only hope to hell that these religious wackos like this Russell character re-inlist so they can stay over there for a long, long time. I will sleep better at night.

Don

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030907/ts_nm/crime_marine_dc&cid=564&ncid=1607

Anti-War U.S. Marine Sentenced to Six Months in Jail

[Tinoire]

17. Sigh... Sad Ping there... That's my home boy

I work on the campaign to free him and I really admire his integrity but bear in mind that Stephen was a reservist.

There's a big difference between a Reservist who trains a few week-ends a year and an Active-Duty soldier.

Reservists are still basically un-brain-washed civilians. Active-Duty soldiers, from Day 1, are inculcated with the "team spirit" and you don't abandon your buddies.

I can't explain the bond among soldiers but most soldiers who have slept, partied, eaten, gotten drunk, showered, lived intimately, gone on long field deployments, trained with their buddies would never dream of abandoning their unit. It's one of those "one for all and all for one" where you have to go with your buddies because you're a team that trained together. That's 1.

Then 2. The military is more and more made up of young families so when your wife and kids are living on base and you are young and this is your only job (and you've got #1 to factor in) you can't just not report like Stephen Funk because you're already there and your family totally depends on your job for their shelter/food.

Then 3. Soldiers who train from 5am to 5PM only to spend part of their evening spit-shining boots, pressing uniforms and preparing for the next day rarely have the time or inclination to go looking for objective news sources. Many, most, tend to accept whatever news is fed to them. I don't think they had ANY idea. How mind-boggling the thought that reptiles like Bush & co could truly be as horrible as they are.

I'm not excusing. I wish every last one of them had gone AWOL. I wish military officers, especially high ranking ones, had blasted this open before the troops went. I wish a lot of things but I don't wish any of those good soldiers harm. The ones like in your original post? I hope the Iraq rebels pick them off so they don't come back here but I do pity the good ones.

Several of our DUers, real Liberal, Progressive, long-time DUers have children over there and are worried frantic for them- children who signed up before any of us could have foreseen the neo-cons would hijack our entire government. Pity them. They didn't go because they wanted to.

I understand your anger. I am angry too. But I believe that if there's one good person in the village, the entire village shouldn't be burned... The innocents among us and that sort of thing.

Peace

On edit: And back to the Reservist/Active Duty difference. The punishment for an Active Duty soldier who deserts (because it's no longer considered being absent without leave) goes all the way to death or if they're merciful life imprisonment. I imagine it would have been a neigh impossible gamble for them to take when they didn't have all the information we did. Really- would you have thought 6 years ago that we would be living these horrors? Imagine being insulated and not knowing...

Just my 2 cents for whatever they're worth...

[Rose Siding]

8. Not even for Mastro?

snip>... But not all the battalion's soldiers are believers.

After one RPG flew over his head, Specialist Ian Mastro asked to leave Russell. He volunteered for 12-hour overnight sentry duty so that he no longer has to leave the base.

With an unlit Marlboro hanging from his lips, Mastro, 25, retells how Russell jumped from his truck and strode straight into the middle of a well-lit intersection taunting the unseen assailants. "Is that all you got? Is that all you got?"

"I had to get out of there," Mastro said. "I can't deal with that whole being stupid sitting around trying to be shot at. Man, it was scary." <end snip>

And the last guy quoted in this piece? Tell me he doesn't sound like he's drugged up.

There's going to be a lot of messed up folks in the neighborhood when they do come home.

[w4rma]

9. Bush* won't let these folks come home. They are good and honest folks.

They aren't interested in PNAC. They aren't interested in geo-politics. They are doing what they are told and hope that the politicians, who tell the military officers what to do, are good people.

The folks who aren't good people are far far out of harms way.

[SoCalDem]

12. We only hear or read about what the "reporter" tells us..

Maybe he interviewed many soldiers who did NOT spout the "party line" before he found the ONE who would..

Remember that we are subjected daily...hourly ... to a propagandized press, and we will only get a glimmer of truth occasionally, and often by accident..

The soldiers are not to blame.. they will believe whatever they ned to , to get them through another day.. THEY have NO choice in the matter..

My guess is, that once they have an opportunity to get out of the military, most will .. That "de- enlistment" will speak volumes..

[NNN0LHI]

14. They all have a choice. See post # 13. n/t

[WilliamPitt]

16. You know something, Don?

This is a pretty self-righteously sick, masturbatory thread you've started here. Just because there are a whole bunch of troops whose views you do not agree with does not mean they are representative of the whole. 'Bring the Troops Home' means being them all back - the gung-ho assholes along with the scared and lonely kids. Why?

Because even the gung-ho assholes don't deserve to die for a lie.

Because the scared ones do not deserve to die for a lie.

Because 'Bring the Troops Home' is as much about protecting the Iraqi people as it is protecting these kids.

Because we run this country, and we are supposed to know better and make our feelings known, whether we like the troops or not.

One last thought. There are two soldiers you would have absolutely despised when they first got in-country. Both were as gung-ho hoo-rah kill-em-all-let-god-sort-em-out as you can imagine. They could just as easily have been featured in this article you've posted.

Their names are Ron Kovic and Brian Willson. The first sits in a wheelchair and is perhaps the bravest, most dedicated anti-war activist you'd ever be lucky enough to meet. The second stands on two prosthetic limbs that replaced the legs he lost not in war, but in a protest in 1987 when he tried to stop a gun-running US government train by laying his body across the tracks.

Both were wild about serving in the army and fighting their war when they started. Both came to know better.

Look in the mirror, Don, and ask yourself who you are to judge.

[NNN0LHI]

18. Perhaps my point that you missed is that these soldiers all have a choice?

Do you argue with that statement? And this "kid" Russell quoted in this article is no kid. He is 40-years old. And these are my own views here. If you wish to take the Bring The Troops Home position, have at it. And good luck in your endeavors. Is that a deal?

Don

[ButterflyBlood]

20. you always blow me away Will

excellent post

[JohnKleeb]

22. bravo Will

You know the youngest of these boys is almost my age pratically. I just gave a prayer for them and for the peacemakers.

[ShaneGR]

21. How do you expect them to act???

Seriously, it's not like that can refuse to do what they're ordered to do! They are legally bound (as in they can be arrested) for refusing to do their job.

What do you want? For them to turn to the reporter and admit they're scared to death of dying and cry?

Will that satisfy you?

[NNN0LHI]

23. If it was my son who was over there I would advise him to refuse to...

...do the job without hesitation. I would explain to him the possible penalties for doing so also. And I would hire for him the best lawyer I could afford. That is what I would want my son to do in this situation. Hope that answers your question?

Don

[ShaneGR]

24. No it doesn't

Because most of these kids don't have parents who would tell them to refuse to do their duty, and hire a lawyer, and risk a dishonorable discharge, be locked up in the brink..... did I mention losing all of your benefits including health, income, education, etc.

Most of these kids parents are poor. These kids are poor. They don't know any better. At least most of them don't. But you expect them to become friggin Erin Brockowich or something.

The vast majority of them are just poor kids hoping to avoid death.

Period. But the person who started this thread might even smirk when that kid takes a bullet to the head.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

25. I am very sure the troops give a fuck about what you think

Although they could use some self-righteous guidance from you.

[LittleApple81]

26. The little girl really gives me the creeps. But please, watch

the Congressional Briefing with Military Families to End U.S. MilitaryInvolvement in Iraq.
This was filmed on Wednesday, September 10th.

http://www.c-span.org/homepage.asp?Cat=Current_Event&Code=Iraq&ShowVidNum=6&Rot_Cat_CD=US_Iraq&Rot_HT=&Rot_WD=&ShowVidDays=30&ShowVidDesc=

(right now it is the 5th video listed there).

You might change your opinion.

Many of these kids in Iraq are not like the religious nut quoted in the article in your link. They got in the army to DEFEND the USA not to attack innocent Iraqis. Many of them do not have the educational background or the family support to be able to analyze the situation as you do.