To the dumbasses trying to bring Terri water - SHE CAN'T FUCKING SWALLOW.

[MikeG]

[Avalux]

1. LOL!!!

But maybe they heard the 'nurse' CNN interviewed this morning, who proclaimed Terri Schiavo can talk and eat pudding!!

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Avalux]

7. She can't swallow voluntarily

she would aspirate trying to swallow food. There's a difference.

[goodboy]

8. her mouth doesn't produce saliva...(nm)

[hue]

40. How do you know this?

Of course her mouth produces saliva.

[goodboy]

46. I was doing two things at once, sorry....I guess her mouth does produce

saliva, and her brainstem manages the small amounts of saliva it produces...but she cannot swallow as you an I can...so she cannot drink from the mouth, or eat from the mouth...period.

[Ilsa]

109. It's possible that the meds she is on keep her mouth only minimally

wet with saliva. A lot of drugs have dry mouth for a side effect. It depends on what she's on.

[MikeG]

Welcome to DU, awsmith89.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. dear, uninformed person, she drools

it all falls out of her mouth. Ever hear of a suction machine?

[maveric]

37. I have to orally suction patients like that all the time.

She cant swallow or she wouldnt be on tube feeding.

[foreigncorrespondent]

74. ROFLMAO

Sorry for laughing but your response just totally cracked me up.

I was sitting here and about to type something very similar (might not have started it the same way, but still) when I saw your post.

[blondeatlast]

51. When you have worked with patients like Ms. Schiavo, let us know.

I have, and they require periodic suction.

She cannot voluntarily swallow, nor even do it as a reflex.

Enjoy your stay.

[maveric]

126. You are right. Thats why they drool so much.

I have to perform oral and trachael suction several times a day on some patients.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

59. Link please.

[Arkana]

79. Not necessarily

If she could swallow, she wouldn't need the tube.

[me b zola]

81. She can aspirate anything in her mouth into her lungs

..and cause pneumonia. I wonder if these wingnuts cause her death by administering her something that goes against Doctors orders can be charged with manslaughter. My guess is...yes.

Any fundie nurses caught doing such a thing will lose their licence, be sued, and possibly brought up on criminal charges.

[arcos]

85. That would be the perfect end to all of this...

as sad as it is, it certainly would be a movie like ending... she dies not because of dehydration, but because someone gave her something they shouldn't.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[ohio_liberal]

11. LOL!

That was bad but it was funny

[tammywammy]

71. Agreed, bad but I still chuckled.

[rzemanfl]

6. On tbo.com this was posted this afternoon by a "medical expert"

"Carolyn Minor, Seffner
3/22/05 12:46:04 PM
I truly disagree about Terri Schivo not being able to swallow as I was watching News Channel 8 at 11:00 on 3/22/05 there was a clip of Terri where she was laying there and she swallowed as if her throat was dry and she was thirsty. I firmly believe that if they gave her small amounts of water and soft foods she would be able to swallow without the help of a feeding tube, it seems that her husband wants her out of the way so he can be with his current lady friend and the kids he has when he commited adultery without having to go thru a divorce.
It also seems from pictures that I have observed of Terri she appears to be under some sedation, get her out of that hospice and place her in a facility away from Mr. Schiavo and give her the rehab she needs and she can lead a normal life."

YEAH, WITHOUT A BRAIN, JUST LIKE YOU, CAROLYN MINOR OF SEFFNER!

[Toots]

16. Then why do they want the tubes put back in her?

As far as I know there is nothing stopping the family from taking her home. If they want to take her and try and feed her let them. It would be God's will. They don't really want that. they want to prolong her misery and her husbands as well for no other reason than political. they are scum.

[blondeatlast]

53. I say let Ms. Minor have her wish. Ms. Schiavo would be

allowed to meet her God at last, and the wingnut water-bearers would be satiated.

Everybody wins--except Bug Bomb Tom and the Congress Meddlers.

[fishnfla]

9. how 'bout the protester with a giant spoon?

I know, its serious business, but I had to laugh

[EST]

10. Makes you kinda glad some of these people aren't

in positions of responsibility, like maybe, president, doesn't it?

[Fleshdancer]

12. Could you imagine? Pro-lifer chokes Terri to death with water.

talk about irony.

[blondeatlast]

55. That's exactly my thought.

Ms. Schiavo can finally find her peace, the water bearers would be satiated, and Bug Bomb Tom and the DC Meddlers would be allowed to get back to real business.

[KharmaTrain]

13. She Would Drown...

The morbid side of me would love to see them attempt to feed her. She has no muscular control to chew or swallow...putting bread in her mouth would suffocate her, giving her water would go directly to her lungs and she'd drown.

What is incredulous is how they claim after 15 years of being in this state and at least 10 years in a "stasis" or no change condition, that somehow this poor lady could be rehabilitated to walk. Absolute lies and incredibile that this crap goes on the corporate media unchallenged...raising hopes for millions who have loved ones in similar situations.

From one whose been down this road, the insensitivity and callousness of the GOOPs in this matter angers me no end. I've had to relive the last days of my mother over and over the past few days...and I'm sure there are others who are revisiting their own moments as well. Shame on these assholes...ALL of 'em!!

[glaeken777]

17. question

Are there any official "studies" or what have you that prove she specifically cannot swallow? I was having a debate last night with my Catholic father who felt that the alleged withholding of Holy Communion, even a particle of the wafer, was evidence that Michael is callous.

About the only rebuttal I could offer is that she was allegedly given a "spiritual" communion by a priest, which is sort of a substitute for those who are completely unable to consume a host. Spiritually speaking, that should cover her needs in that realm. What do I know.. *shrug*... I no longer practice, myself.

BTW - my father is a good man; resist the urge to flame him. Pray for him. He needs an eye-opening on many crucial issues, and I for one don't believe that it's ever too late for such things to happen.

[Zynx]

21. Swallowing is a conscious act

Terri lacks the brain tissue that would tell her that there was something in her mouth, much less let her try to chew and swallow it.

So yes, Holy Communion would at best not leave her mouth and at worst kill her by getting into her lungs.

[KharmaTrain]

27. Been There...

No flames here...just my own personal experience.

My mother suffered from Altzheimers and Parkinsons for the last 4 years of her life. The first symtom of a problem was when she lost her appetite and stopped eating on her own.

She spent the last two years on a feeding tube since she could no longer chew or swallow properly. She'd regularly choke on the simplest of things...bread, a french fry...and couldn't take liquid without assistance and a straw. This only got worse.

By the end, I was faced with the decision to pull the feeding tube...since it was causing her discomfort...her condition had regressed to thoroughly she no longer could move and the used very little energy, thus even less need for nurishment. I worked with a living will (thank goodness).

The videos you and he sees are a minimum of 3 years old...and just a few seconds. My bets are if your dad saw Terri's true condition...lying in a bed...motionless and a prisoner in that shell of a body, he'd see a different light.

The spiritual side of this has perverted the medical realities. Those who fall for the emotions in this issue are inviting more intrusion of religious zealots into our private lives.

Maybe you should ask him how he'd act if you or he were in a similar situation...if you were so incapacitated that such a terrible decision has to be made. Would he want your body to languish while your soul wandered aimlessly...or would he want all of you to be whole? Right now Terri Schaivo is in a medical, ethical and legal limbo...the tragedy of this travesty.

[glaeken777]

68. thank you..

both for not instinctively flaming, and sharing your personal experience. I wouldn't wish this sort of decision on anyone... I can't possibly imagine how hard it is for anyone. That's the main reason why I don't feel scorn for the Schindlers. If I saw my daughter languishing like that, I am honestly unsure how well I'd be able to temper my emotions with hard logic. I do believe there is a line which can be crossed from honest love & longing into selfishness. Unfortunately, I think they've crossed it. Sad, very sad.

As for my father, he knows full well my wishes. In fact, I've told him that if he defies my wishes, I will be sure to haunt him hellishly until he breaths his own last breath!

[KharmaTrain]

76. I Feel For The Schindlers As Well...But...

Their ordeal has been never-ending for 15 years and all those outsiders sticking their nose in has deluded them and will lead them to even further anguish as the end game will be that they will be forgotten by the same slimeballs who now claim they care so much about them.

I call this "Paula Jones Syndrome"...these people in all their frustration and grief have sold themselves over to these zealots who have their own selfish interests and agendas. Once this story is over, these goons will be off to exploit the next personal tragedy that fits into their power and morality plays.

Logic and common sense tells one how to act and react in these situations. In my case our prime concern was for my mother's comfort. She was medicated only when necessary and her quality of life was paramount. This is what death with dignity is all about...the very qualities the Schindlers were hoping for in the beginning but have had it hijacked.

What disturbs me is how many people who've had an experience similar to mine has had to revisit their own moments...or to the others who have loved ones in PVS and other dibilitating states have their hopes raised falsly for political gain and corporate media profit.

Shameful.

Peace

[glaeken777]

77. great points

That's what frosts me the most. The Schindlers will understandably collapse into a puddle of grief when their daughter dies. Who wouldn't?

But think for a minute... this would have happened eventually if the tube was removed without all the extra appeals and outside interference. Now they've been fed and lefted up by all these grandiose and false hopes courtesy their lawyers, Randall Terry and others.

Now...when the final thumbs-down is inevitably delivered by the last avenue of appeal... when Terri finally has nothing left to do but die... IMAGINE the increased pain that family will now suffer compared to if things had just taken their course.

Their sadness will be exponential. And what will the bastards that led them on do? Give them a few hugs, a few meek mumblings of "well, we tried", and then they'll fade away. I doubt the Schindler's grief will fade so quickly, however.

[ohio_liberal]

36. I'll look for a link

Terri Schiavo had communion before they took out the tube.

Edited to add:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-318schiavo,0,2720746.story

Roman Catholic Monsignor Thaddeus Malanowski and another Catholic priest gave Terri Schiavo last rites, putting a few drops of communion wine in her feeding tube hours before it was removed.

[glaeken777]

67. learn something new every day!

Muchos gracias! :)

[ultraist]

42. Several neurologists have examined her. She cannot swallow

I'm sure her parents tried to get her to swallow when they made those tapes too. If she could swallow, they would have gotten it on tape.

[tubbacheez]

14. Who wants Evian? :) nt

[NomoBreaks]

15. Ten Dollar Bet Here

I BET 90+ percent of the privately purchased and donated water is

HOLY WATER

from his most exalted royal

WAL of MARTLAND

SPECIAL THIS WEEK: 67 cents/gal.

:evilgrin:
the Wal of Martland

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. They're also bringing sandwiches.

:eyes:

[Dr.Phool]

23. I bet they got her a Cuban

[against all enemies]

20. Didn't Delay say yesterday that she was like other disabled Americans

walking around every day. Is he really this stupid? I think he is. Which is even scarier than him being a right wing jerk. I know he is vicious, but stupid too?

[MikeG]

24. Man, this shit is making me thirsty.

[flvegan]

25. They could just order a couple pizzas for her.

Papa John's delivers, and he's a big rethug supporter if memory serves.

Idiots.

[MikeG]

26. Raspberry Lemonade or a Fruit Slushie.

[rzemanfl]

33. Pop Rocks and Coke. n/t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[Medium Baby Jesus]

35. Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Even conscious people in a debilitated condition

(like my grandmother a couple of days before she died at age 100) can lose their ability to swallow. Half of everything she consumed was going into her lungs.

This eventually caused pneumonia, which her doctor of 25 years recommended against treating. He predicted that she would just slip away at some point, which is what she did, during an afternoon nap.

[nini]

32. the loss of the ability to swallow is part of the dying process

those morans can't seem to comprehend that!

sorry about Grandma :hug: the same thing happened to my dad and thankfully he went peacefully like your grandmother did.

[nini]

31. let them in to feed her

maybe she'll choke to death and they can go up on murder charges. Then let's see how they react.

Dumb fucking idiots. The body is smart enough to SHUT down these types of responses when it cannot sustain life anymore. She lost the reflex to swallow because her brain and cannot function and her abililty to live no longer exists - unless of course she's hooked up to those f'ing machines.

They are so fucking stupid it makes me crazy and explains to me how that asshole got so many votes.


URGH

[sonicx]

34. to people at DU that think she can swallow...

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Jay Wolfson, DrPH, JD, Guardian Ad Litem

<<The clinical records within the massive case file indicate that Theresa was not responsive to neurological and swallowing tests. She received regular and intense physical, occupational and speech therapies.

snip

Three, independent sets of swallowing tests were performed early in Theresa's medical treatment: 1991, 1992 and 1993. Each of these determined that Theresa was not able to swallow without risk of aspiration (and consequent infection).>>

[Ramsey]

38. Swallowing function

Normal Swallowing Function
Swallowing is a complex series of sequential neuromuscular events that are integrated into a smooth and continuous process. Generally, the process is divided into three stages: oral, pharyngeal, and esophageal.

The oral phase is completely voluntary and involves the entry of food into the oral cavity and preparation for swallowing; this includes mixing with saliva, mastication, and formation into a cohesive bolus in preparation for the swallow. It requires coordination of the lips, tongue, teeth, mandible, and soft palate. The pharyngeal phase is initiated as the tongue propels the bolus posteriorly and the base of tongue contacts the posterior pharyngeal wall, eliciting a reflexive action that begins a complex series of events. The soft palate elevates to prevent nasal reflux. The pharyngeal constrictor musculature contracts to push the bolus through the pharynx. The epiglottis inverts to cover the larynx and prevent aspiration of contents into the airway. The vocal folds adduct to further prevent aspiration. The hyolaryngeal complex moves anteriorly and superiorly, which, in combination with the pressure generated by a bolus, provides anterior traction and intrabolus pressure to open the cricopharyngeus. The esophageal phase is completely involuntary and consists of peristaltic waves that propel the bolus to the stomach. Total swallow time from oral cavity to stomach is no more than 20 seconds.

The trigeminal nerve (cranial nerve V) controls general sensation to the face and motor supply to the muscles of mastication. The facial nerve (CN VII) controls taste to the anterior two thirds of the tongue and motor function to the lips. The glossopharyngeal nerve (CN IX) provides general sensation to the posterior third of the tongue and motor function to the pharyngeal constrictors. The vagus nerve (CN X) provides general sensation to the larynx and motor function to the soft palate, pharynx, larynx, and esophagus. The hypoglossal nerve (CN XII) controls motor supply to the intrinsic and extrinsic muscles of the tongue.

[hue]

39. Pts with feeding tubes are often able to swallow at least to some degree

There is adequate data to show that Terri was always able to swallow to some degree. Swallowing studies show a scale of swallowing abilities. The feeding tube is placed for adequate protection that she doesn't aspirate, but looks like she can swallow (she may aspirate some of what she swallows) as I had thought.
Swallowing is not always an all or nothing task.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/20/102601.shtml

[Lindacooks]

41. NEWSMAX is your source?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!

That right wing piece of trash hasn't written a true word yet.

Have anything from accurate sources?

[hue]

43. These look like the nurses notes to me

I have personally little knowledge of what papers are right wing or legft wing. Just google her ability to swallow and you'll see many sources. The neurologists I work with all agree they have seen her swallow on film. Yes she swallows her saliva--no need to suction her. How much plainer can that be???

[Lindacooks]

44. And what exactly is your source on that?

The court rulings all say you're wrong.

[ultraist]

47. Her parents would have gotten this on tape, if she could swallow

Get real. They had the chance to tape her and did not show her taking fluids. The doctor that inserted the tube also checked her and would not have inserted it, had she been able to swallow.

There is compelling evidence to show those rumors are totally bogus.

[sonicx]

48. from the guardian ad litem (a doctor who spent hours with her)...

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Jay Wolfson, DrPH, JD, Guardian Ad Litem

<<The clinical records within the massive case file indicate that Theresa was not responsive to neurological and swallowing tests. She received regular and intense physical, occupational and speech therapies.

snip

Three, independent sets of swallowing tests were performed early in Theresa's medical treatment: 1991, 1992 and 1993. Each of these determined that Theresa was not able to swallow without risk of aspiration (and consequent infection).>>

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hue]

58. looks like everybody else is the expert--not me

I'm the one who said I wouldn't know if she can/to what extent she could feel.
You should know by now that the diagnosis of PVS is almost 50% wrong--that's like the toss of a coin right? 50-50

[sonicx]

61. Perhaps you'd know if you read the Guardian Ad Litem's report and not...

RW propaganda?

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Jay Wolfson, DrPH, JD, Guardian Ad Litem

<<The clinical records within the massive case file indicate that Theresa was not responsive to neurological and swallowing tests. She received regular and intense physical, occupational and speech therapies.

snip

Three, independent sets of swallowing tests were performed early in Theresa's medical treatment: 1991, 1992 and 1993. Each of these determined that Theresa was not able to swallow without risk of aspiration (and consequent infection).>>

[hue]

66. Have read the Guardian Ad Litem report

I personally have dealt with several neurologists who interpret the same tests in different ways and have differing perspectives regarding the prognosis of the same patient.
There were 5 neurologists who gave an opinion on Terri Schavio--all a little different, two were almost opposing opinions. I have also heard two coroners disagree on causes of death of the same patient. One can find lawyers and expert witnesses of all kinds that disagree. If you want someone to testify in your favor just do a search and pay them enough money. That's why I'm not so impressed with the Guardian Ad Litem report.

[mondo joe]

70. In what capacity have you "dealt" with neurologists?

And as usual your facts here are wrong.

One of the 5 wasn't even a neurologist. Another had only anecdotal comments and no real medicine.

The other 3 all concurred, and were all specialists who provided real medicine to support their positions.

[sonicx]

72. One of the doctors was a RIGHTWING NUTJOB!!

and has NO credibility!

From Media Matters....

Fox News host Sean Hannity and MSNBC host Joe Scarborough both promoted Dr. William Hammesfahr's false claim that he is a Nobel Prize nominee.

Hammesfahr, a Florida neurologist disciplined in 2003 by the Florida Board of Medicine who claims he can help Terri Schiavo, testified during an October 2002 court hearing on the Schiavo case that his claim to be a Nobel nominee is based on a letter written by Rep. Mike Bilirakis (R-FL) recommending him for the prize. But Bilirakis is not qualified to make a valid nomination under the Nobel rules.

According to the process posted on the Nobel Prize website, the Nobel Assembly sends out invitations to approximately 3,000 people who are allowed to propose candidates. The 3,000 are "mainly members of the Nobel Assembly, previous prize winners, and a selection of professors at universities around the world." In providing detailed information about those who can submit nominations, the site states:

snip

But the fact that Bilirakis is not qualified to nominate Nobel Prize winners did not stop Scarborough or Hannity from referring to Hammesfahr as a Nobel Prize nominee. Hannity did so a total of eight times during a single hour-long program; Scarborough made the reference four times. Additionally, Scarborough erroneously claimed that Hammesfahr has "treated" Schiavo; in fact, Hammesfahr has merely examined her as one of five doctors approved by a Florida court in 2001 to do so. He was one of two doctors selected by Schiavo's parents; two others were selected by Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo, and the fifth was chosen by the court.

snip/more

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009

And read this about this "methods."
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/tcd.html

And read this about why he was disciplined. http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/FinalOrders/03-17-03/DOH-03-0182.pdf


T. Schiavo's parents are wingnuts and they have wingnuts around them....

Like their SPOKESMAN.

Also from Media Matters...

Christian activist Randall Terry has reappeared in the news in recent days as the spokesman for the parents of Terri Schiavo. Terry, founder of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue and the Society for Truth and Justice, appeared on Fox News at least four times in the past four days -- on the March 18 edition of Hannity & Colmes, and during live coverage of the Schiavo case on March 20 and March 21. But Terry has a controversial past that was not fully disclosed in any of his Fox News appearances or on the March 19 edition of National Public Radio's Weekend Edition, which aired a brief clip from Terry. In all but one of those instances, Terry was identified only as the Schindler family spokesman.

Only when Terry appeared on a March 21 "Fox News Alert" did another guest -- Fox News contributor and Democratic strategist Susan Estrich -- point out that Terry was "involved in the anti-abortion movement" and with Operation Rescue, which "operated outside the law."

On his own website, Terry noted that he "has been arrested over forty times for peaceful opposition to abortion," but he neglected to mention the details of his anti-abortion activities with Operation Rescue in the 1980s and 1990s. In an April 22, 2004, Washington Post article, staff writer Michael Powell summarized some of Terry's anti-abortion actions:

snip/more

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220001

When will you learn?

[hue]

91. sonicx what do you want me to say?

I can see he's a RWer--a fruitcake! What about it? Probably a Catholic activist and that's why the Schindlers hired him or requested him. Yes, the Schindlers are surrounded by right to life activists! They are the ones seemingly running the show.
Still, I feel sorry for the Schindlers. I don't think there's anything worse than a parent seeing their child (at any age) suffer and die. Some of you will take issue with my word suffer, but anyways Terri's on her death bed. And yes I believe that these RWers are compounding the grief and making it much harder for the parents because they are interfering with the natural process. Its all a media circus!
It seems like everyone one is waiting for the GRAND FINALE.
To me this is all so tragic.

[mondo joe]

92. There is 1 thing worse than a parent seeing their child die

And that is seeing someone deprived of their civil rights.

[sonicx]

94. Saying she's suffering only validates the fundie doctors...

Sure it is a tragic situation, but the lies and abuse of power of the Psychotic Right is disturbing.

[mondo joe]

75. Hue, since you have made your "dealing with neurologists" a recurring

theme of your erroneous posts, please state in what capacity you "dealt" with neurologists.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

69. 50%?

No. I've seen something like 40%. But in a case like Terri's, in which her CT scan shows that her cerebral cortex is missing and in which the patient has shown no improvement in 15 years, there is no doubt.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

65. Here is a clue

If they are selling Clinton murder tapes and call Hillary Hitlery, It's a pretty good sign they are slightly biased.

[ScreamingMeemie]

83. I have to say it! I love your screen name!

:hi:

[Medium Baby Jesus]

84. Thanks MrsGrumpy

Sometimes I think "MrGrumpy" would fit me better!

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

88. Heh. Grumpy fits us all at times. But Medium Baby Jesus just tickles

me everytime I see it. :hi:

[ultraist]

45. Her guardian ad litem (PhD, JD) reviewed all of the medical info

And determined that she cannot swallow. Why would a doctor insert a feeding tube if she could swallow?

[Lindacooks]

50. Yes, exactly.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

49. Swallowing done while eating is a voluntary, deliberate act.

There is such a thing as involuntary--reflexive swallowing--and Terri can probably do some of that.

But swallowing foods or liquid for nourishment or hydration is something you need to do voluntarily.

[Bouncy Ball]

57. NEWSMAX??

Seriously, dude, don't be coming in here with that Newsmax shit.

[mondo joe]

60. Newsmax? Why not just link right to Rush Limbaugh?

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[retread]

86. newsmax swallows!! n/t

[LynneSin]

52. I like the dumbasses going on hungerstrike until Terri is fed...

...like that'll last more than a day until the McDonald's cravings start to kick in again.

If not - one less repuke xians!

[MikeG]

63. I only get pizza cravings myself. And I got one now.

[Solly Mack]

64. Oh the irony to be charged with murder for forcing water down

the throat of someone who can't swallow... filling their lungs with water, causing them to "drown" to death....all for a "mission of mercy" (talk about your mercy killing)

(roflmao)Bite me...it's hilarious.

[Anakin Skywalker]

96. Since When Did Fundies Ever

"think" in logical step by step progression?

Yes, it is kind of hilarious seeing the simplemindedness of the Keep Her Alive & Vegetative people.

[Solly Mack]

97. They don't think...that's the whole point.

well, that and I have a truly warped and wicked sense of humor...

[CalebHayes]

80. MATURE UP DU! It's sad when thats coming form a 14 year old member.

Someone is going to die soon, quit laughing over it. It's not funny at all.

[mondo joe]

82. Honey this IS maturity.

When you get a little closer to your own old age you'll see.

[CalebHayes]

103. I guess obviously I must be missing something because ...

the DU I know and love isn't nearly this immature and venomous.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

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[sonicx]

90. why haven't you responded to my post about the glorious fundie doctor?

and spokesman? here's some help for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3324887&mesg_id=3326385&page=

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

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[mondo joe]

100. What is the nature of your mother's dealings with neurologists?

[JohnnyCougar]

106. The nature?

She's been a registered nurse for 25 years. She's dealt with all kinds of doctors all her life, including neurologists.

What about you? What do you know about neurology?

[mondo joe]

107. I haven't claimed any special knowledge because I've "dealt" with

neurologists.

I'm quite content for neurologists to speak for themselves rather than pretending to absorb knowledge by working with them.

Is that okay?

[JohnnyCougar]

113. But obviously you have the ability...

to assess someone's condition from your PC just like Bill Frist can do it from videotape.

[mondo joe]

115. Not at all. I accept the testimony of multiple neurologists who

have examined Terri.

Is THAT a problem?

[JohnnyCougar]

117. But what if those neurologists are paid Democratic shills.../sarcasm

Look, I disagree with my mom's position, but at least I can do so respectfully, without doubting whether she really interacts with neurologists or not.

The ground that you judge on is really no different from hers, even disregarding her experience, however, so I suggest you lighten up.

[mondo joe]

118. If they are politcally biased by all means the evidence should be

put forth.

I haven't claimed special medical knowledge because of the people I work with.

Your mother has - and she's put herself at odds with the neurologists who HAVE examined Terri.

Then she uses Newsmax as a source.

I know she's your mom and all, but that's BS and I'm calling it.

[JohnnyCougar]

121. But you have claimed that my mom wasn't a real nurse

which requires mental telepathy, something that I am betting you don't have. Which is also BS, and I'm calling it.

All she said her experience told her was that different neurologists can have different opinions about the same test. That seems like a perfectly reasonable observation to me.

[sonicx]

123. Sure, but the neurologist who said Terri's not PVS is an ultra-partisan...

Quack.

[JohnnyCougar]

125. Well, fine then.

I don't believe him either. My mom didn't know him or where he was coming from. This is obviously an engineered stunt by DeLay and Rove. But my mom is new to this movement, and has yet to wake up to things like utterly false RW propaganda acts.

Just be patient and give her time. Most people have a hard time adjusting to just how big of liars Bush and Co. really are.

[mondo joe]

124. No, I never said that at all. I said her medical knowledge appeared

dubious, and I said I'd never want to be in any ICU that employed her.

I stand by those statements.

Since she never said she was a nurse that I know of, I had no reason to say she wasn't one.

Can different neurologists have different opinions? Sure. Would I consider those opinions from unknown neurologists who have never met the patient making offhand comments to be comperable to those made by noted neurologists who examined Terri and testified to her condition in a court of law?

No, I would not.

[JohnnyCougar]

127. No, but you implied it. Don't make me dig up the numerous examples.

I'd never want to be in any ICU that employed her.

That's your loss. She is considered one of the top nurses in her field, and just won an award for her hard work and skills.

[mondo joe]

128. Again, I never knew she was a nurse - that's the whole reason I asked

what the nature of her "dealings" with neurologists was.

I believe she's a nurse. But I have to say I would still never want to be under her care in an ICU.

Johnny, I appreciate that she's your mom. But someone turns up with a couple dozen posts, parrots a lot of right wing talking points, absolutely contradicts the neorologists who examine Terri S and all on the basis of having worked with neurologists.

Honestly, what would you expect to happen?

[JohnnyCougar]

129. Well, I didn't expect people to call her a whore...

I know that was not you, but that's what really sent me over the edge. That and the people denying that she was really my mom, even when she said so.

To top it off, she was temprarily banned for being accused of being a freeper, which has now been sorted out. Even after she got un-banned, one poster felt it was appropriate to point out that she was banned previously (even though it was a mistake) and that we should not listen to her.

I guess I expected more civility here. Unfortunately, I was expecting too much.

[mondo joe]

130. I definitely missed that! I don't think it should be a

shock that people thought she might be a freeper. But I don't see any reason to call anyone a whore.

[sonicx]

119. the Christian Republican judge appointed a doctor for the court

[sonicx]

108. Interesting that she says Terri's in pain yet no credible doctor says that

[JohnnyCougar]

112. Yes...interesting, isn't it?

[hue]

131. I never said she's in pain--you said I said that

I said we really don't know how or what she feels. Even if a dozen neurologists say she doesn't feel pain it is acceptable medical practice to view pain as a subjective experience which cannot be proven. Neurologists (those that are credible)all agree with this. This is why those who are dying are routinely placed on a morphine drip even if they are diagnosed "brain dead" no less "brain damaged". In fact many neurologists are steering away from the diagnosis of PVS because of the ambiguity of the state and misdiagnosis rate.
Neurologists are usually only consulted to give an opinion on a Patient. They do not have the final word as the primary doctor does.
It is totally unacceptable for anyone to assume that a dying person does not have pain at any or all levels. Even mondo joe stated he wanted a morphine drip to ease his way when he passes away.

You seem to skew what I say to fit your narrow template/vision of the world just like repubs do. I never said I knew she had pain yet you twisted it into that.:evilfrown:

Furthermore I simply had no idea what the source of that news story was. I just googled that up. To me it looked like real nurses notes. Johnny, who has more credibility than I knows I've never read from that souce before! LOL do you think I have a subscription to it?

[democracyindanger]

87. They want to bring her bread, too

Saw a robot saying that she wants to "get water or a piece of bread to her." Cut to a doctor saying: "A piece of bread is very dangerous. It could lodge in her lung." Not just her throat; her LUNG.

I want to put a piece of bread in one of these idiots' pie holes when they're asleep, nevermind in a vegetative state.

[LisaL]

101. So, it's murder if someone feeds her and she suffocates to death?

But it's not murder if she starves to death?

[sonicx]

104. Choking her would be euthanasia. That's illegal.

pulling life support isn't.

[democracyindanger]

105. No, it's not murder in either case

But one is a recommended medical procedure in cases like this, and the other is a dumb fucking idiot pulling a stupid fucking stunt for Jeebus.

[LisaL]

114. Yea, recommended medical procedure. She could last several

weeks dehydrating to death. I guess this is the best we can come up with to show how humane we are.

[mondo joe]

116. As a matter of fact it IS the most humane option available.

[sonicx]

122. She's not in pain,and it's not inhumane. DU's goodboy posted a thread....

where a relative experienced the same thing. no pain. Several replies backed up the experience.

[medeak]

102. show some respect

this woman has had no dignity thanks to her parents. That's the least we can do.

[CalebHayes]

111. I agree

[medeak]

120. wise beyond your years

so refreshing.

[Ilsa]

110. And thirty years from now when she is still the same way as she is today

where will these nutcases be?