I guess I'll weigh in on Shiavo

[HEyHEY]

If there is one thing this whole gaffe proves... it's the need for legal euthanasia. When I first heard about it I thought, "Yikes, pull that tube and it's death by starvation, that's sick."
And I still think that, this is why we need to have euthanasia, so they could pull the tube and put in the new one.

AS it stands now, I don't know that it's right to have her starve to death.

[Zuni]

1. I agree

I think that it is very bizarre to think a court ordered a woman, no matter what her mental capacity, to be starved to death.

It seems to me that it would be more humane to take her into the woods and cap her in the back of her head.

[expatriot]

9. You know,. the polls yesterday, more liberals support keeping her alive...

than moderates. Which goes to show it is a deeply personal thing that is driven by convictions. And people who identify themselves as liberal or conservative are going to TEND to have stronger convictions than those who self-identify as moderates.

[Zuni]

18. On this issue, I have seen remarkable differences

people that are usually RW have called for her to be left to die, and people who are very liberal want to put the tube back in

Very strange case. I guess it all depends on the way you hear the story and if you believe Michael or the parents.

[jdj]

139. This is extremely common.

Alot of older people die this way. If they have a living will and they do not want a feeding tube put in, they pass away. My grandmother quit eating before she lost concsciousness, and she explicitly did not want a feeding tube.

I'm sure thousands of folks die this way every day in the U.S., by their own choice. To have kept my grandmother alive with a feeding tube in the state she was in would have been much crueler than to let her pass. How heartless can people be...

[expatriot]

2. Phweew. The country can finally take a breath! HEyHEY weighed in!!!

Man, the country was headed for a divisive moral trainwreck... thank God HEyHEY weighed in just in time!

[HEyHEY]

6. SOrry that my desire to voice my opinion on a discussion board

Insulted you.

[expatriot]

11. I was just joking, sorry to be a smart ass.

[HEyHEY]

29. That's cool, it's just when I hit GD sometimes I don't

Automatically get the sarcasm as it gets kinda rough in here s

[K-W]

13. I think he was mocking the importance you seem to place on your opinion

ie why you think your opinion deserves its own thread when the rest of us have been able to satisfy our ego's by discussing on the previously existing threads

[HEyHEY]

24. He can mock all he wants.

I did it because most of the other threads are alredy huge and I don't feel like loading them each time.

[K-W]

32. That isnt a good reason.

That shows amazing selfishness.

But as long as you dont mind being mocked for it, I guess I cant hold it against you.

[HEyHEY]

44. THe pettiness of people on this board amazes me

Amazing selfishness? Oh yeah, so many had to suffer for this thread. I'm such a bastard. A 2 cm space is taken up on their computer screens.... god why?! WHY AM I SUCH A FUCKING EVIL CRACKPOT!!??

[Susang]

137. I have an idea

Because it's a lot more fun than being a sanctimonious prick? ;-)

Happy Birthday! :party:

[merh]

179. Don't let them get to you - there are some who want to control

what is important and what we think and discuss. For days they have been bitching about the number of threads on this. It is silly and the more they complain, the more threads I want to start. Don't let them get to you. :hug:

Starving to death for a person in the state Schiavo is in is not painful. She basically feels no pain. My mother died of dehydration when she could no longer eat or drink due to her brain tumor and cnacer in her bones. (The dehydration was painless compared to the pain caused by the cancer. They listed the other ailments on her death certificate, but ultimately it is because she wanted to heroic methods use to maintain her "existence" and neither did we. We let her go peacefully.)

This is not a cruel or painful demise. What is cruel is maintaining her in this form. imho

Don't let those other folks bother you. Too many chiefs and not enough thoughtful indians around here sometimes. :hi:

[Beware the Beast Man]

146. Generals gathered in their masses

Just like witches at black masses.

[bigtree]

17. ya done good

haven't heard this one yet . . .

[HEyHEY]

41. I hope you're kidding

I know DU isn't that slow

[bigtree]

56. my mistake

I haven't been reading deep enough into these posts. Good point anyhoo . . .

[underpants]

3. I agree but legal or not it happens all the time

sssshhhhh don't let this out but when you've had the same family doctor for a while (or even not that long) and the cause of death is not going to be questioned much it happens all the time.

[HEyHEY]

7. Really?

Got any links or anything...that's interesting

[Horse with no Name]

21. It's done "unofficially" in alot of cancer patients

The Doc prescribes a large quantity of morphine then tells the family to be very careful because if the patient took "x" amount it would kill them.

[fairfaxvadem]

54. That is exactly right...

Many terminally ill patients end up "starving" at the very end regardless. Their bodies start to shut down. It's part of the dying process.

My dad's doctor gave my mom an Rx for morphine for my dad to keep him comfortable in his last days so he could die at home with his family there for him. He saw no need to hospitalize my dad.

Sure, he didn't eat or drink a thing for about the last week, but there were four of us in the house during the entire time, including my mom, and to this day we agree it was the best decision for him.

[Horse with no Name]

79. My dad died when he was 45

of cancer. He was suffering horribly--his lung cancer had metastasized to his liver.
There were 2 lesbian nurses that lived next door to us that my dad was very fond of.(hard to believe because he grew up in the era of Archie Bunker worship, but its true,lol)
They came to my mothers house and shut the door. My mom heard them talking to my dad but she didn't know what was being said.
About an hour after they left, he died.
We have no idea what was said or done behind the door and we didn't ask. We were just thankful his suffering was over.

[mondo joe]

86. One of the great unspoken truths about medical care - as you

certainly know - is how often terminal people are helped along the way.

I'm so glad about the evolution in thought about pallative care these days, and the more liberal attitude toward pain meds.

[jdj]

144. thank holy god for hospice.

my family was about to lose our collective mind when they came into the picture, and taught us about the dying process. Every thing we were beside ourselves about with my ganny was just another step in the process to them. I even called them late the night before she passed because she seemed to be moaning,and the put the phone near her so the nurse could hear her. The nurse said that it was a very common "self-soothing" sound that dying patients make, and that it was probable that she would pass away very soon, which she did early the next morning. She waited for the 5 minutes when she was alone in the room, and slipped quietly away. My Dad had been by her bed all morning, and he walked outside for a minute and when he came back in, she was gone.

If we had not had hospice, the whole process would have been a nightmare and a lasting trauma. During that time we met a woman who went through it without hospice, and it was obvious that she had many scars, because if you don't know better you blame yourself for everything that happens, you don't know what to think.

[Lars39]

187. Oxycontin is used for this purpose, too.

It builds up in the system, patient goes into a coma, drifts off.
My mom died this way. What's nice is that Oxycontin allowed her to be lucid. Morphine doesn't.

The downside to Oxycontin is that you can't just jump in and start using it right before the end.

My aunt was an example of this. Her doctor waited too long to get her
in Hospice, so she was stuck with morphine.

[Bouncy Ball]

33. Underpants bringing the truth.

Very true. And overdoses of morphine, while technically illegal, happen in this country all the time.

Just talk to a hospice care worker who is willing to talk OFF the record.

BUT Schiavo's case now has SO much attention and spotlight on it that every single thing done with her or to her is done under a national microscope, so no chance of that with her.

[underpants]

59. HeyHey just anecdotal evidence

it is a very private matter and should be kept that way

Thanks Bouncy-yeah they have created a situation where the best thing to do (given the court decision) is not an option-not that she will feel it.

[K-W]

4. She didnt want to be kept 'alive' like this.

What part of this are you confused about?

People die. It isnt pretty, it isnt nice, it isnt convienent. But the fact that dying sucks doesnt mean we should keep all peoples bodies animated as long as possible regardless of their wishes.

[HEyHEY]

10. yes people die

The point I'm making is we can at least be humane about it and help her out a bit

[Beaverhausen]

20. I believe they administer morphine to patients when they take the tube out

so if they are in fact still able to feel pain they don't.

[mondo joe]

26. I think it's more humane than you think it is.

It's a peaceful and painless process, and morphine is administered as a precaution.

[K-W]

27. I agree about euthenasia 100%

But since our law doesnt permit that, I think it is fairly straitforward that the right thing to do is to respect Terri's wishes and allow nature to take its course.

Also, in Terri's case. It seems probable she would not feel any pain, and this is entirely humane. And I question the logic that having her animated vegetative body wasting away at the end of a feeding tube is more humane than letting her die.

[Dookus]

5. I agree

but it's unfortunate that we can't even HAVE that discussion. This would be a perfect time.

[dean_dem]

8. All I'm saying is...

to these fundies going on about Gods plan for Terri: um, it wasn't God that shoved a tube in her stomach. Seems if they were concerned about God's will they would have just left the poor woman alone.

I think the fact that she is plugged in so she can "eat," and not simply to keep her organs alive is what makes this case so difficult. If she was on a respirator it would be much more cut-and-dry. But if she truly has as little brain function as the scans are showing, she won't starve to death. Her body will just shut down, and there won't be any pain or discomfort.

But none of that is for anyone other than the family, and unfortunately the courts, to decide. And I hope a special place in hell is being reserved for Delay and all the soulless shitstains who are turning this into a political crusade.

[HEyHEY]

Your point

Is the one that I think shows the hypocrisy of fundies. There have been many out there that refuse blood transplants because it interferes with god's will... and this doesn't?

[Zuni]

25. I agree

I hate that this has become political, but I am not sure if I am willing to take her from her parents.

[Connie_Corleone]

12. I wish people would get the facts about starvation/dehydration...

Doctors have said time and time again that this is the most humane way to die. The woman's cerebral cortex is liquid! She doesn't feel starvation. She can't feel anything.

Her body will just shut down and she will die. If she could feel, she would be given drugs to make sure she didn't have discomfort.

[Zuni]

30. I'm sorry

there is nothing humane about starvation.

The electric chair is more humane than starvation. It is a cruel, long agonizing death.

[HEyHEY]

36. Not if doctors say it isn't!

Cause you know, many of them die of starvation every day and live to tell about it

[Connie_Corleone]

45. So, we shouldn't listen to doctors?

I'll make a note of that.

[HEyHEY]

51. Hey you're saying starving to death is less painful

Than taking pill or something.... commons sense says no.

[Beaverhausen]

55. Oh my god- read the thread will ya?

you started it and there is a lot of information on it.

Don't get so defensive - you are the one who started a new thread just to give your own opinion. People here are providing you good information. READ IT!!!

[HEyHEY]

66. I have been

I'm making the point that I'm all for the this woman dying, but people are calling me a bastard for being against her being killed. When what I'm trying to say is being killed by starvation is sick and we should have a method to deal with this.

Tis them who need to read.

[mondo joe]

67. No, you're not a bastard. You're just uninformed and not

interested in the facts.

[HEyHEY]

69. I have a DIFFERENT opinion than you

IT doens't mean I'm not interested in facts. I'v read all of this, and I can't get past the idea that starving a human body to death seems a bit sick.

[mondo joe]

73. No, your opinion has no factual basis. It's what you imagine, not

what actually happens.

But of course you have a right to your uninformed erroneous opinion.

[HEyHEY]

75. So you think we should let a body starve to death

When there is an available way to kill it much quicker?

[mondo joe]

78. I think it should be an individual choice.

And I think we should pay attention to the real facts, rather than crap uniformed people make up.

[HEyHEY]

81. What the did I make up?

I said starving to death is painful.. many people will tell you it is. If it wasn't then we would give a rat's ass about people starving to death. Yes Terri won't "feel" it, but if that is the case, why not kill her quickly anyway. It seems like going half way just to pull the tube.

Also, if it's an individual's choice than how come she's not the one making it?

[mondo joe]

82. What you made up is that it's painful.

And the individual choice is the reason you select a good guardian for yourself who will speak on your behald when you can't do it.

[HEyHEY]

90. here

http://static.highbeam.com/c/currenteventsaweeklyreaderpublication/october301998/hungerpainsstarvationproblemsaroundtheworld/

[mondo joe]

95. Wow! Weekly reader! Now try some actual science:

http://www.dyingwell.com/prnh.htm

[HEyHEY]

109. Yes a report full of words like "Might" "Scanty evicence" and "May"

[mondo joe]

116. I'll gladly provide more hard data if you like. Or you might even

look at what other posters have written here about people in their own families passing away this way.

[HEyHEY]

121. Yeah, a little more would be good please

[mondo joe]

128. Here's one more.

http://www.nbc11.com/health/2355264/detail.html

[fleabert]

117. This is right in line with what I understand about refusal to eat:

Excellent article...thanks for linking it.

"Perhaps the most persuasive of recent articles is that entitled, A Conversation with My Mother. It is a narrative written by Dr. David Eddy regarding the progressive illness and dying of his mother. Initially published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, it was subsequently reprinted in the New York Times, eliciting substantial discussion and notably favorable public response. Mrs. Eddy was suffering from progressive debilitation, chronic depression, anemia, recent surgery and recurrent rectal prolapse. She expressed a desire to die and, in the course of relentless decline, asked her son for help. Dr. Eddy sought to provide his mother with the means to end her life peacefully. However, prior to obtaining a lethal prescription, she developed pneumonia and was hospitalized. Antibiotics were begun (we are not told why), but quickly withdrawn at the patient's request. When she began to improve despite the lack of life-prolonging intervention, Mrs. Eddy asked her son about the option of refusing food and fluids. (It was her idea.) He assured her that without nutrition and, especially without adequate fluid, the end would come quickly. She was elated and, following the celebration of her 85th birthday and with the support of her primary physician, she stopped eating and drinking. (Her last morsel was chocolate.) She died, peacefully, six days later. The description of her last few days is compelling. "Over the next four days, my mother greeted her visitors with the first smiles she had shown for months. She energetically reminisced about the great times she had had and about things she was proud of... She also found a calming self-acceptance in describing things of which she was not proud. She slept between visits but woke up brightly whenever we touched her to share more memories and say a few more things she wanted us to know. On the fifth day it was more difficult to wake her. When we would take her hand she would open her eyes and smile, but she was too drowsy and weak to talk very much. On the sixth day, we could not wake her. Her face was relaxed in her natural smile, she was breathing unevenly, but peacefully. We held her hands for another two hours, until she died."

[mondo joe]

122. Sorry Fleabert - these factual ccounts and science can not compare to

made up melodrama.

[HEyHEY]

127. Again, factual doesn't include a report based on "Maybes"

[mondo joe]

129. Sure it does. It includes accurate data, some of which is determined

and some of which is not.

[HEyHEY]

132. WHen it says "10,000 died under hospice"

Does that mean assisted suicide?

[mondo joe]

138. You don't even know what hospice is?

I guess absolute nd total lack of knowledge of the subject matter doesn't prevent some people from talking about it.

:-(

[HEyHEY]

151. I know what it is- however my question is what they mena by that

Sentence as where I live we have hospice but not assisted suicide.

[mondo joe]

154. Hospice and assisted suicide are 2 different things

So there's no reason to wonder if one means the other.

[HEyHEY]

157. There is if you've just finished reading an article

Hospice is a home for people who are ill. The article was about assisted suicide it said at the end "10,000 people died under hospice last year"
Hence, being from a place where assisted suicide is not legal I was wondering if they're performing them in Oregon at hospices. So stop being so condescending about it.

[mondo joe]

161. No - she didn't do assisted suicide and the talk about it precedes

her hospitalization.

[fleabert]

176. Hospice holds your hand and your heart when you die.

http://www.hospicenet.org/

They also assist family and friends to adjust to end of life issues. My grandmother volunteered with Hospice, she said it was the hardest, most beautiful thing she ever experienced.

Hospice usually occurs at home.

[fleabert]

175. :-)

my dh is an avid mountain climber and hiker, so there are lots of books in my house about it. Several of them have stories about getting lost and being without food for a week or two, or minimal food for several weeks until they (or their journals if they died) are found. Not one talks about massive pain from hunger or starvation. Euphoria is more common, as noted in your link. It is our own fear of the unknown and occasional hunger 'pains' we get after missing a couple of meals that cause us to think this is unnatural or unbearable.

Starvation and dehydration in third world countries is vastly different, and is often accompanied by contaminated water, lack of nutrition (only eating one food for a long period and not recieving proper vitamins while still trying to remain active), and widespread disease. That is a painful and horrific event. I only wish people in this country were as outraged by that as by this case. Imagine BushCo. waking up in the middle of the night to sign legislation that committed to ending world hunger or AIDS. Won't ever happen.

[Beaverhausen]

70. No, that is not what you were saying. Read your own posts again

[HEyHEY]

76. Read my original post

[Beaverhausen]

89. I felt the way you do until a few days ago

When I started reading all the information here about the fact that not only does this happen far more often than I had thought but that most health care workers do what they can to ease any pain that the patient may suffer, including administering a lethal dose of painkillers, I changed my mind and I think this is the most humane way for Terri to have a dignified death.

sorry about that run-on sentence.

[HEyHEY]

96. ....

Yeah, but don't you think it'd be better to have a way to quickly get it over with?

[Connie_Corleone]

62. Read my post again. I didn't say anything what you wrote.

No cerebral cortex, no feeling.

IF a person can still feel, drugs ARE given so there is no discomfort.

[HEyHEY]

68. No, sorry I mixed yours up

With another.

But drugs for pain or no, letting a human body starve to death seems very sick to me

[mondo joe]

48. If you want to ignore both the medical findings and the testimony

of families involved in the process, that's up to you.

But it doesn't make for a more compelling argument.

[Connie_Corleone]

38. When did you starve to death?

Electric chair more humane? Yeah, okay.

[HEyHEY]

50. Hey - you're right niether I OR a doctor has!

[mondo joe]

71. And yet doctors have data on people who have. And your fellow

DU members have accounts of family members who have.

But why bother with facts when you can just make shit up?

[fleabert]

192. read some journals from people who have and the journals were found

near the body.

[mondo joe]

40. That's your opinion. Not a fact - and not even an informed opinion.

You really should learn more about it.

[HEyHEY]

52. About starvation?

WHy so I can pretend it doesn't hurt? As a starving child in africa

[mondo joe]

64. Again, if you want to make up science like a fundy go ahead

Even though you're ignoring the testimony of people who have been through the process, and a whole body of knowledge.

[monkeyes2]

163. liberals tear each other apart...

why do you jump to the insults and calling people fundies or right wingers?

if liberals can not disagree without being called these names then we have lost sight of what we are supposed to stand for...

[sonicx]

168. You would have been banned already if you had posted on Free Republic

a message that was against the actions of the parents. You are lucky.

[mondo joe]

184. I have no tolerance for lies.

That's not a political thing.

[fleabert]

98. I have friends that fast for a week or longer, they say that the first

few days are rough, but then the hunger just dissapates. Not painful, just annoying. They are able to drink water, but Terri hasn't had a drink of water in 15 years, I am sure her mouth is kept moist by nurses and saliva production only. She can't swallow, hence the feeding tube.

on top of that, read some accounts by people lost in the woods who were either found in the nick of time, or journals of those who were found too late, pain from not eating is not mentioned. Thirst is more often the difficult part, and she has been 'thirsty' for 15 years. I think it was more cruel to keep her body 'alive' all this time for no good reason. She would not have wanted to exist this way.

edited to add some stuff I decided to say...

[monkeyes2]

181. she will dehydrate not starve...

it is the lack of water that is painful and will kill her...

[mondo joe]

185. Please prove it's painful.

[fleabert]

186. again. she doesn't feel anything.

www.dyingwell.com

do some research about it.

[monkeyes2]

188. why the pain meds then?

why do they prescribe painkillers then for dehydrated patients?

[mondo joe]

189. Hospice pts not eating or drinking receive morphine for 2 reasons

1. as a precaution
2. to comfort scientific illiterates in the family of the pt

[fleabert]

194. have I told you that I am glad you are here today?

I am glad you are here.

end of rope, meet fleabert's hands (paws).

[mondo joe]

195. I feel the same way about YOU

Mighty Fleabert!

[fleabert]

197. not enough room in DU for all this love!

:yourock:

keep fighting brother. I will do my best as well. :-) I just wish I could sit down and talk with people sometimes. It would be much faster if I had a chair here and could go to a link, push the other person in front of the monitor and say -READ-, and then we could talk about it, rationally. Not going to happen, but it would make things easier. :-)

[fleabert]

191. oh lord. do I need to type the same thing over and over?

did you read this thread or just the replies to you? Read the whole thing, including the personal account from dyingwell.com and get back to me. I think that will answer your question.

you are thisclose to being on ignore. very annoying.

[Undercover Owl]

198. painful?!

you don't get it do you?
she doesn't feel anything.

[thinkingwoman]

35. facts? people don't need no stinkin facts!

They got opinions!

</sarcasm>

[Connie_Corleone]

65. Apparently not. LOL!

[Cleita]

196. Also for people who are close to dying, they lose their appetite

and don't wish to eat. They don't feel hungry. It's natures way of easing you into death.

[northzax]

14. eh, canucks

look, we don't have convenient ice floes to ship out our weak and elderly on, so we have to deal with it in other ways, ok?

actually, it just points to the real need to provide someone you trust with written durable power of attorney, and written instructions in case of incapaciation. A marriage license is not good enough any more.
but you better not do that with someone of your own sex, damnit. that's queer.

[HEyHEY]

49. Ice floes...he hehe

[LynneSin]

15. She may be starving to death but surely she isn't suffering

First, she has very very limited brain capacities. But even still - she's probably on massive pain killers so she does feel any pain

[goodhue]

16. there is an important legal distinction

between turning off the machine,
and employing machines that kill (a la Dr. K).

Removing the feeding tube is not illegal, unlike assisting in suicide.

[sandnsea]

19. Baby Sun suffocated

What was so right about that? People are pulled from respirators all the time.

Have you not read the numerous medical opinions on death and that "starvation" is as natural a cause of death as a coronary? And that it is not painful at all?

[Donailin]

22. she doesn't know she's starving

a brain is required in order to process that information such as pain and hunger and organ failure. Terry's gone already, the only part alive is her body.

[goodboy]

23. she won't starve to death...check this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3321086&mesg_id=3321086


my mom didn't starve to death...she just stopped eating, which is what Terri's body's wanted to do for 15 years.

[Midlodemocrat]

57. When my sister-in-law was dying

I sat with the GI Doc with my brother while he discussed what was taking place when the tube was pulled. The feeding tube was actually causing strain on her liver and other organs at that point, because her body had ceased to need nutrition.

Pulling the feeding tube probably helped her to live as long as she did. She died seven weeks later. A true fighter with a little girl she longed to raise. Alas, it was not to be.

She felt no pain, no hunger, no thirst. She was completely at peace up to and including the moment when she passed. She was being attended by some of the foremost oncologists in this country, and they knew how to adjust her medications so that she would never be in pain.

Terri's doctors will do the same for her, because as human beings, we never want to see someone suffer, especially at the hour of death. The point here is, she is not starving to death. She is incapable of starvation due to the massive infarct that put her in this position 15 years ago.

May God bless and keep her and her family during these agonizing next days.

[goodboy]

119. thanks for posting in my other thread too, milo.

[Bouncy Ball]

28. She won't starve to death, HeyHey

she'll die of dehydration and is dying of it now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3317297&mesg_id=3317297

Read that.

And while I agree on your point that we should be able to use an overdose of morphine in cases like this, so it's faster, that's illegal here.

Ah well!

And this should have been done years ago. Would have been, if it weren't for fundies and jeb bush. The reason I say that is in that link.

[Bucky]

31. I agree it's kind of ghoulish to starve her

Of course the theory is that if she's truly in a persistant vegetative state, she won't feel the starvation. There was one woman on a TV show I saw who said she recovered from a PV (mis)diagnosis and has recall of the moment they pulled her feed tube out. On the other hand, it's hard to see how a woman with a brain like this...

can truly feel anything.

We studied life-n-death ethics extensively when I was in college. It seems to me that a feeding tube doesn't quite meet the test of "extraordinary means" that you have to meet before pulling the plug on a person with a beating heart. I'm emotionally and intellectually behind the parents in this case, but my position is pretty shallow right now. I can also understand her husband wanting to end her suffering.

[mondo joe]

39. I think it's MORE ghoulish to suspend her death for 15 years like a zombie

by force feeding chemicals into her gut.

There are no wonderful deaths.

[K-W]

42. Your post seems to ignore Terri's wishes.

I cant really see how you could be intellectually behind anyone but Terri.

[Bucky]

43. Bil Keane on "persistent vegetative state"

OK, not actually Bil Keane

[johnlal]

34. The right decision is not to decide.

There is no way that Congressional intervention can make this any better. This is a dispute between 2 private parties. If one side "wins", what does it benefit the rest of us? How does it help anybody?

If I were in Congress, I would abstain. This is not anything that a Congress member should get involved with.

Tell me this... If Congress votes to keep her alive, will they pay for her medical bills? Will they pass a resolution for every new medical procedure she may need? Are they now responsible for her?

[northzax]

58. they are already paying her bills

Medicare pays for anything that isn't donated by the hospice.

[bloom]

37. I agree

Seems like there ought to be a better way.

Like people who get the death penalty...

I think we should do away with the death penalty and have voluntary euthanasia instead.

[mondo joe]

46. A "better way" would be an individual choice.

Personally, I'd prefer to cut the feeding and drift away in hospice rather than take a lethal injection. But I know that's not everyone's choice.

[DearAbby]

53. I would maintain that this choice is a very personal matter

that the government has no business in making such decisions. They are using this case to destroy the constitution. A naked power grab. They care very little for Terri, she is a tool.

Case in point...Baby Sun Hudson. They removed his oxygen as he laid in his mother's arm, the mother who wanted her son to live, against all odds...where is the outcry on that case? Compassion? Ask Wanda Hundson about compasson.

[goodhue]

47. withdrawal of life support is not euthanasia or any form of it

From Hong Kong, but right on . . .

http://www.hkam.org.hk/temp/euthanasia.html

The issue of whether to initiate or withdraw life-sustaining treatment has been the subject of a very long debate, not only in the medical circle but also in the community.

The issue has been further complicated by people using terms like 'euthanasia', 'active euthanasia' and 'passive euthanasia'. To make it quite clear, withdrawal of life support is not euthanasia or any form of it.

Where death is imminent, it is the doctor's responsibility to take care that a patient dies with dignity and with as little suffering as possible. The rights of the terminally ill patients for adequate symptom control should be respected. This includes problems arising from physical, emotional, social, and spiritual aspects.

Euthanasia is defined as "direct intentional killing of a person as part of the medical care being offered". The Council does not support this practice which is illegal and unethical.

The withholding or withdrawing of artificial life-support procedures for a terminally ill patient is not euthanasia. Withholding or withdrawing life-sustaining treatment taking into account the patient's benefits, wish of the patient and family, when based upon the principle of the futility of treatment for a terminal patient, is therefore legally acceptable and appropriate.

It is important that the rights of the terminally ill patient or his relatives be respected and that their views be solicited. The decision of withholding or withdrawing life-support should have sufficient participation of the patient himself, if possible, and his immediate family, who should be provided with full information relating to the circumstances and the doctor's recommendation.

Doctors should exercise careful clinical judgement, and whenever there is disagreement between doctor and patient or between doctor and relatives, the matter should be referred to the ethics committee of the hospital concerned or relevant authority for advice. In case of further doubt, direction from the court may be sought, as necessary.

[goodhue]

106. !

This is not a case of euthanasia. Bringing euthanasia into picture only helps repukes smear job. It is a routine removal of feeding tube as decided by person with legal right to make decision.

[riverwalker]

60. I am assuming all those against "starvation"

donate regularly to Feed The Children and Oxfam famine relief. Otherwise, the "H" word fits.

Having been with hundreds of dying people, the first thing they do, the first, is to stop eating and drinking. Death is a natural process, as natural as birth. The reason the death cult is in power right now is because of our "denial of death", which is also the title of a 30 year old book by Earnest Becker about this whole thing and says it is the source of most evil.

[monkeyes2]

61. outstanding issues in the schiavo case

First I highly recommend getting a living will, making multiple copies and making sure all doctors, family members and lawyers have a copy. Be careful when moving from state to state to redo the Living will... the rules, regs. and procedures change drastically from state to state.

Living wills are great and should be required…this can be easily done… simply require them when getting a drivers licenses and then re-do them with weddings, funerals, Divorces, and DL renewals...

In lieu of a living will each state has their own hierarchy of selection for the patient’s guardian and the specific allowable medical procedures that may be removed or retained for the patient based on the guardian. the guardian is *supposed* to make decisions based on what the patient would have wanted NOT based on their own comfort with the procedures.

The Schiavo case has several things about it that make it fuzzy...

1. The husband did not remember Terri’s wishes not to be kept alive until after 2 lucrative malpractice settlements.

2. The husband moved in with another woman prior to remembering the wishes ... and now has fathered 2 children. Not that I think he should have remained celibate but at what point should his ability to speak for his spouse be reasonably questioned? he in the best of terms should be considered an estranged husband, and possibly a polygamist??

3. The diagnosis of Persistent Vegetative State (PVS) is required in most states to even consider removal of feeding tubes or other medical procedures....the PVS diagnosis has been reported to be 40 -50% wrong... A diagnosis with a failure rate that high should not be used as a legal determination for death.

Neurology, Vol 43, Issue 8 1465-1467, Copyright © 1993 by American Academy of Neurology, Accuracy of diagnosis of persistent vegetative state, NL Childs, WN Mercer and HW Childs, Healthcare Rehabilitation Center, Austin, TX 78745.
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/43/8/1465?ijkey=656e95a13d47ca67d9cfb673712f8e100158a24b&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Andrews K, Murphy L, Munday R, Littlewood C. Misdiagnosis of the vegetative state: retrospective study in a rehabilitation unit. BMJ 1996;313:13-6. (6 July.)
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/313/7048/13?ijkey=23f7b49212f9997569f3a1e9c42a0ffeae065522&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

BMJ 2000;321:196 ( 22 July ) New technique helps to assess vegetative state Zosia Kmietowicz, London
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/321/7255/196


4. The very fact that the rules, regulations and procedures are so vastly different from state to state is disturbing. for example if Terri had been transferred to Missouri she could not have the feeding tube removed unless she had a living will specifically stating that request, a guardian can not remove feeding tubes.

[Bouncy Ball]

72. If she's NOT in a persistent vegetative state,

I am the virgin Queen of England, SERIOUSLY.

Read the link I posted in a post on THIS thread a few up, then tell me she's not in a PVS.

[monkeyes2]

80. PVS OR NOT?

I have no idea whehter she is PVS or not... and neither do you unless you have examined her... according to some of the links I posted there is a 40 -50% misdiagnosis rate... and those are diagnoisis by nuerologists not by armchair doctors in chat rooms.

All I was saying about the PVS diagnosis is that it is required in many states to have a PVS diagnosis prior to the guardian being allowed to remove ANY medical procedures... and it seems a bit off to have something that could possibly be 40-50% WRONG as a legal requirement...

Please read some of the links I supplied about PVS misdiagnosis...

[mondo joe]

83. Terri is in PVS as confirmed by multiple neurologists

Please review the court case.

[monkeyes2]

97. please read the links...

pvs misdiagnosis is 40-50%

[northzax]

87. According to Florida Law:

she is PVS. here is the http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf">Judge's Ruling

There are exactly zero reputable neurologists who have examined her who think otherwise.

Hold it, let me repeat that: According to Florida Law she is PVS. here is the http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf">Judge's Ruling

There are exactly zero reputable neurologists who have examined her who think otherwise.

[Bouncy Ball]

126. Why don't YOU read the link I posted higher up in this thread

that goes to a New England Journal of Medicine STUDY which will give you more facts about PVS than you currently seem to have???

THEN we can talk.

[monkeyes2]

156. more links on PVS...

Neurology, Vol 43, Issue 8 1465-1467, Copyright © 1993 by American Academy of Neurology, Accuracy of diagnosis of persistent vegetative state, NL Childs, WN Mercer and HW Childs, Healthcare Rehabilitation Center, Austin, TX 78745.
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/43/8/1465?ijkey=656e95a13d47ca67d9cfb673712f8e100158a24b&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Andrews K, Murphy L, Munday R, Littlewood C. Misdiagnosis of the vegetative state: retrospective study in a rehabilitation unit. BMJ 1996;313:13-6. (6 July.)
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/313/7048/13?ijkey=23f7b49212f9997569f3a1e9c42a0ffeae065522&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

BMJ 2000;321:196 ( 22 July ) New technique helps to assess vegetative state Zosia Kmietowicz, London
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/321/7255/196

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[monkeyes2]

93. are newbies not welcome?

I posted on another issue and saw this one and decided to post here as well.

I have been following this case for over a year and have read all the trial transcipts...

I am sorry that I have only just found this site... that does not make me stupid... but you do seem to indicate that I may not be welcome...

[mondo joe]

100. I'm just amused by all the right wingers cropping up here to

spread disinformation.

[Lautremont]

107. And all have their profiles shut off...

Wonder why that is.

[mondo joe]

112. What would you like to know?

I'm 40 years old, male, live in Seattle.

My education was at Syracuse University. For 15 years I have worked in non profit healthcare causes.

I have a spouse and two children, ages 7 and 9.

I like reading and gardening.

Is there anything a profile can tell you that changes anything I've posted?

[Beaverhausen]

123. I think they meant the newbie's profile was off

[Lautremont]

124. Um... wasn't talking about you, Joe.

But I have noticed that the newbies spreading disinformation also happen to have a lack of little heads beside their names. The fact that the info in the profiles doesn't mean much just makes it all the more amusingly paranoid that they should have shut them off.

For the record, I've been very impressed with your arguments on this whole thing and find you're the poster I most consistently agree with.

[mondo joe]

131. Oh Lautremont - I'm sorry!

My mistake!

[Lautremont]

143. Easy to get confused.

Soldier on, sir.

[monkeyes2]

130. profiles...

no info in profile because there are NUTCASES in this world...

I post and therefore I am... :)

whatever I have or not in a profile means nothing... half of the information in the profiles is false anyway...

[mondo joe]

136. Yes but half the information you're posting is false too.

THat doesn't stop you.

[monkeyes2]

142. I am supplying links..

to my info, are you?

[sonicx]

145. actually, you aren't. BTW...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3323706&mesg_id=3324583&page=

[mondo joe]

152. Bouncy Ball and Sonicx have provided plenty of links.

You just don't like them.

[monkeyes2]

114. RIGHT WINGER???

I guess I have my answer... newbies are not welcome...

well I think I'll stay and drive you nuts!

[mondo joe]

102. Since you read the transcripts you should know

that Michael has provided extraordinarily good care of Terri, that her parents admitted they would deny her wishes even if they KNEW she requested no life support, and that every qwualfied neurologist has agreed she is in PVS and is wholly non responsive.

[HEyHEY]

111. Yes, you're very welcome here

[Undercover Owl]

182. Newbies are viewed with a skeptical eye

That's just how it goes.
It's because there are astonishingly many disruptors and other folks whose core values are diametrically opposed to the views expressed at DU.


It's amazing how many bored losers are out there, whose main goal is to pretend to be a liberal and/or democrat on DU. For their own sakes, they should get a meaningful hobby, or study a foreign language, or change their oil, or make some beaded placemats, or something. That's my 2 cents.

It takes a while to convince people that your intentions are genuine. In the meantime, welcome! :hi:

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

120. LOL Turnip Worshippers.

It has a ring to it.

[mondo joe]

77. Factually wrong.

1. Michael didn't suddenly remember anything. He spent years trying to help Terri recover. When he finally had to concede it would never happen he had to accept her wishes.

2. He is not a polygamist nor is he estranged. He is Terri's legal guardian.

[monkeyes2]

85. michael's motives???

come on have you actually looked at the time lines or read the transcripts from the malpractice settlements? I have... he begged and pleaded to have the money so he could take care of her... his lawyer even went on about how she respondes when michael came into her room...

just weeks after the settlement he *remembered* that she did not want to live this way.

had he mentioned that originally to a doctor, and then said OK doc lets see waht we can do for her and reevalutate in a few months... then I would totally be on his side and would believe that Terri really did say that to him with conviction... but given the timeline I think he is a greedy SOB!


there were 2 mal practice settlements... 1 was made public, the other was not...

the public one the jury awarde 6million but reduced it to 2 million because they felt terri had some responsibilty for the collapse...we can only assume the second settlement was similar amounts...

the money is not gone and lord only knows how much remains... it was put in a trust fund and invested...

[mondo joe]

92. Please stop making factually erroneous statements.

The money IS gone, and even if it weren't it was in a trust not controlled by Michael ANYWAY.

[monkeyes2]

94. are you the accountant?

what research have you done on this issue?

Noone knows what is left of the money except for Judge Greer and Michael Schiavo.

[mondo joe]

99. I don't need to be the accountant.

And Terri is indigent - her care is publically funded precisely because there are no assets to fund her care.

[monkeyes2]

101. do you have links to this?

[mondo joe]

104. To the fact that she's indigent?

I thought you said you knew the case.

[monkeyes2]

110. TRUST FUND data

Fund for Schiavo's medical care dwindles
By ANITA KUMAR and J. NEALY-BROWN

© St. Petersburg Times,
published June 3, 2001

"In April 1993, Mrs. Schiavo's money was valued at $776,254, court records show. By April 1998, it was only down to $713,825.

The money, managed first by Barnett Bank and now SouthTrust Bank, was invested in blue chip stocks, such as Coca-Cola, Walt Disney and Proctor & Gamble; corporate and U.S. Treasury bonds; and a money market account.

Schiller, the financial planner, said a portfolio such as that could have earned $70,000 or more a year in the mid and late 1990s, when the stock market was booming. "It's not unrealistic," Schiller said. "It was the best performance in decades."

Those kinds of returns could have paid for Mrs. Schiavo's expenses. Her medical expenses were paid for by health insurance and Medicaid at first but now are paid by the account. It costs about $3,000 to $5,000 a month to live in a nursing home."


at the $5000 a month cost for a nursing home and the fund earning ~$70,000 it should be perpetual care... (also she is in a hospice not a mursing home so it is actually cheaper)


and this is only based ont he KNOWN settlement amount.... there were 2 mal practice settlements...

[sonicx]

115. :::yawn:::

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-locmiket25022505feb25.story

<<Is Michael after her insurance settlement?

Wolfson's report says that early on, Michael "formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interests in the guardianship estate.">>

[sonicx]

105. hmm

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-locmiket25022505feb25.story

<<Is Michael after her insurance settlement?

Wolfson's report says that early on, Michael "formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interests in the guardianship estate.">>

[northzax]

108. links? please?

according to Mrs. Schiavo's Guardian at litem (from Nightline last night) the settlement was for a total of $900,000. $200 for loss of consortium and 700 paid (into a trust) for her care. the state of Florida is the administrator of that Trust.

Do you know WHY it's depleted? it has been used, with court permission, to defend Mrs. Schiavo's best interests (determined by the court 20x to be removal of the feeding tube) against multiple frivolous lawsuits filed by people trying to deny her this right. Every time her parents sued her in court (that's really what they were doing, you know, suing her) that money went to help pay lawyers.

Mrs. Schiavo's care costs roughly $100,000/year. Do you really think that Medicare would pick up all of that if she had assets left to tap?

If you can post a link, in a response to this message, from a reasonable source (that means a news outlet that attributes sources) that there is $2million on the table, not $200,000, I will make a donation in the amount of $50 to the charity of your choice. You have until 9 am Wednesday morning to post the link. If I question the source, I will rely on the judgement of The Magistrate (moderator of this forum and a reasonable DUer of long standing) to determine if it is a reasonable news source.

you have nothing to lose! and your favourite charity has only money to gain! It's a special offer, just for Monkeyes2!

[monkeyes2]

125. here ya go! Tsunami fund would be fine...

Malpractice suit brings $2-million to woman left in vegetative state Series: Metro REPORT:
LAURA GRIFFIN. St. Petersburg Times. St. Petersburg, Fla.: Nov 12, 1992. pg. 3.B
Abstract (Article Summary)

“…The jury agreed partly with the defense. They originally awarded the Schiavos more than $6-million but found that she was 70 percent at fault. So they subtracted her liability from the award, bringing it down to $2-million, her attorneys said.
The verdict could have been higher, Woodworth said, if the jury hadn't found that because of the bulimia, Mrs. Schiavo had a life expectancy of only 17 more years.
Woodworth said he and Fox questioned the jury's decision to decrease the award and will discuss with Circuit Judge Phillip Federico whether it is legal.
The couple also sued Mrs. Schiavo's family doctor, Joel Prawer, but Prawer settled earlier this year for an undisclosed amount, Woodworth said…”

[Beaverhausen]

134. Oh good. a 13 year old article

news flash- that money has been spent.

[monkeyes2]

141. money or not?

early post on trus fund data...

speaks to the trust fund earnings... (that is based on the known mal practice settlement amount only)...

claims trustfund would have earned about $70,000 a year and that her car should be at most $5000/month = ~$60,000 a year...

so perpetual...

remember there is an unknown settlement amount out there... could have been $2 or 20 million... to add to these figures...

[sonicx]

147. i don't see a link. but i got one....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3323706&mesg_id=3324583&page=

[monkeyes2]

153. go to the archives of the paper...

are you that lazy?

the links to the paper archives do not work directly you have to go to the paper archives and put in the info and then go to the article...

I have posted the citations... remember those? they are used in real research...

[sonicx]

140. :::whistles:::

<<Is Michael after her insurance settlement?

Wolfson's report says that early on, Michael "formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interests in the guardianship estate.">>

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-locmiket25022505feb25.story

get the picture yet?

[monkeyes2]

148. 1st guardian ad litem...

"...Richard Pearse Jr., an attorney appointed by the court to recommend a solution in the case, filed a report suggesting Terri Schiavo be kept on a feeding tube. In his report, Pearse questions Michael Schiavo's credibility. Schiavo aggressively pursued treatment for his wife for years after her accident, Pearse said. But about the time a jury awarded the couple $1-million in a malpractice suit Schiavo decided not to pursue treatment, he said..."

Parents: Comatose daughter understands:
ANITA KUMAR. St. Petersburg Times. St. Petersburg: Jan 26, 2000. pg. 1.B

[sonicx]

150. he can't touch it. get it yet?

[monkeyes2]

155. you are right...

not til she is dead...

[sonicx]

158. more like never

[mondo joe]

159. If she had assets she would not be receiving indigent care, which she is.

There's no nothing for him to get when she dies.

[northzax]

203. and it's worth noting

that the judge in the first case found the first guardian ad litem to not be credible, since he admitted that there was never a situation in which he would recommend that the feeding tube be removed. He stated, under oath, that he had a strong belief in using all avaliable care. And here it's one million? I thought it was 2-6?

however. Do you happen to know what happened to the 2 mil on appeal? I assume it was either knocked down big time or overturned, since the most recent guardian ad litem(appointed by Jeb Bush) believes her assets have been expended.

[fleabert]

172. re: Michael Shaivo 'remembering'

Others have argued this better than I.

simply put, there is no money left.

I would hope to god that my husband would have children if this happened to us, as my providing them in a PVS would be repulsive. I have told him I can only hope that he would do by me the way Michael has done by Terri.

Have you seen the brain scans? she's gone.

edited because I am sick of this.

[monkeyes2]

180. LIVING WILLS FOR ALL...

As for michael... I will forever question his motives... again if he had simply early on told a doctor (as he is actually required by law to do) her desires then I could take his word... the fact that he waited until after the malpractice settlements makes me cringe...

As for you and everyone else... I hope you have a living will and multiple copies... talk to your family and friends and make sure they know... then your spouse will not have to be in this position. be aware though if you move from your current state in the USA or are overseas your living will may not be of any use... the laws and procedures and the ability of even a pre-selected guardian to make decisions for you changes from state to state and country to country...

[fleabert]

183. don't yell at me.

and don't give me advice. I don't respect you.

I have a living will. My post was talking about Michaels actions outside of living will issues. I was talking about wanting my husband to have a life after mine is over but my body lingers. (which it shouldn't since I would not have the tube inserted, but if I were Terri, I would be so thankful for Michael, and happy that he had love and children in his life.)

[demnan]

63. I don't think she is feeling any pain or suffering at this point

Yes to withhold food does seem cruel but a feeding tube is not really food - it's just a nasty way to keep a body alive after the higher mind is dead.

There is some report about a nurse who accuses Michael Shiavo out now. That Terri could speak.

[Undercover Owl]

190. she isn't!

And about "Terri" being able to "speak":

In the case that her larynx is still able to vocalize, what is so amazing about that? Her vocalizations are reflexive, with NO communicative intent.

BTW, I am a Speech Pathologist.

[northzax]

204. She isn't, true

but that doesn't mean that one can do cruel and barbaric things to her. She is still a human, under law and ethically, and should be treated as such.

Just because she can't feel pain, doesn't mean we should inflict it upon her.

[dutchdoctor]

74. Legalising euthanasia may not be the solution.

It's legal in the Netherlands (I'm not sure but I think we're the only country in the world), but amongst other regulations, the person requesting it must make a conscious decision to want to die. Euthanasia is never performed on comatose patients, unless the patient has made a repeated request for euthanasia to at least two doctors prior to losing consciousness, including one who knows the patient for at least several years, and there must be incurable suffering. All kinds of other restrictions apply.
None of this applies to Terri Schiavo, for all we know she is completely incapable of suffering in her current state.

I think there is another problem here: In the Netherlands it is generally accepted that some outcomes are worse than death, persistent vegetative state being one of them. Any medical treatment that may lead to such an outcome is therefore bad medical practice and should be withheld. In this case, if a patient is still in the intensive care unit and brain scans and EEGs show severe damage with no chance of recovery , all life support should be stopped. Not because the patient would want this, but because it would be malpractice to do otherwise. Same goes for the feeding tube: it serves no medical purpose and should not have been inserted.

"This was Dutchdoctor weighing in, shutting up now!"

[bloom]

88. I like to hear about how it's done other places

thanks for the note.

It sounds like this would not be a problem in the Netherlands.

I don't think it needs to be a problem here, either, but it is.

[dutchdoctor]

103. There is no place in the world were these kind of decisions are easy

And often becomes a problem in the Netherlands, too. One of the main problems is that the only way you can really stop interfering with the course of nature is when the patient is still on life support in the Intensive care unit. Unfortunately then it is often to early to tell what the prognosis will be. When patients enter a vegetative state, you can no longer just stop the ventilator and let nature run its course, so everything becomes more complicated.

Communication with the patient's family is key, and for people with very strict religious beliefs it may be very hard to accept that someone who still breathes, opens and closes her eyes etc. is in fact already dead.

[monkeyes2]

160. NETHERLANDS DUTCH REPORT

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95000390

"...An estimated 5,981 people--an average of 16 per day--were killed by their doctors without their consent, according to the Dutch government report..."

I am for euthanaisia but ONLY when there is a living will... clearly stating the persons wishes... but the netherlands are a bit overzealous... seems the cost of medical care may be driving their decisions...

[Lautremont]

164. I think it might actually be the observance of unrelievable

suffering that's driving those decisions.

"Socialized medicine is making doctors think like accountants." Ha!

And, NOT pulling the plug could very well be an economic decision as well. I'd imagine that a patient roster of purely PVS patients would be pretty easy money for a doctor in a for-profit medicine situation.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dutchdoctor]

201. That WSJ article is extremely biased and full of bullshit

If a doctor kills a patient without his/her consent it is considered murder in the Netherlands. Anyone who thinks this has taken place is free to contact the dutch justice department and force them to start an investigation. Some doctors have actually been prosecuted, but none have ever been convicted.

.. seems the cost of medical care may be driving their decisions...

That is the biggest insult I have heard in a long time, and it is complete bullshit. In fact, it is exactly the opposite: because every dutch person has health insurance and the money doctors make is not related to the decisions they make, EVERY SINGLE DECISION is based on what is best for the patient. This in contrast to the U.S., where privatised health care and the risk of suing makes it very attractive to practice defensive health care, which means that every patient gets many unnececessary but very lucrative CT-scans etc.

[Lautremont]

91. Holland seems to have a real perspective on these things.

I heard a long radio interview with another Dutch doctor on the subject of euthanizing children who were suffering terribly and incurably. He outlined the criteria for such a measure, and they all made complete sense.

[dutchdoctor]

113. too bad the only thing it gets us is worldwide reputation of "babykillers"

Euthanasia is performed on similar children all over the world, because unfortunately there are (genetic) medical conditions that are incompatible with life. Sometimes the newborn child suffers for hours or days before it eventually, but inevitably, dies. In most countries it is accepted to alleviate that suffering, even if it hastens the process of dying.
The only difference is that the dutch love rules and want to be open about it, so guidelines have been set up to help decide what to do.

[Lautremont]

135. Perhaps an America-wide reputation.

Or, I should say, a red-America-wide reputation. In most of the world, common sense is common sense, and mercy is mercy. The open, regulated system in Holland is extremely civilized.

[monkeyes2]

162. death when asked for... not when forced upon patients...

except for the ones that did no ask for death...

An estimated 5,981 people--an average of 16 per day--were killed by their doctors without their consent, according to the Dutch government report.

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95000390

there is a clear difference between granting death per a living will and forcing it upon someone.

there really is a slippery slope here... who determines what is acceptable to live through... only the patient is qualified to determine when they have had enough... we must make living wills required... to stop the insanity... when we start making these decisons for people we become monsters.

[Lautremont]

165. Uh, buddy, we're talking about infants here.

Your characterization of doctors as bloodthirsty murderers killing unwilling victims just won't fly. Perhaps you should go and apply your slippery-slope arguments to the same-sex marriage debate or something.

[monkeyes2]

167. 16 a day does not include the infants...

"...And these numbers do not measure several other groups that are put to death involuntarily: disabled infants, terminally ill children and mental patients..."

[Lautremont]

170. You're the one blathering on about 16 people a day.

I was having a little side conversation about infant euthanasia with dutchdoctor. You busted in with your four-year-old WSJ article. You'd have been welcome to add something germaine to an exchange about infants; instead you moan about people being euthanized without expressly asking for it. Thus my response: of course they couldn't ask, they're infants. Foolish me for thinking you were talking about what I was talking about.

[monkeyes2]

171. excuse me.

excuse me. I saw nothing on this thread specific to infants...

dutch doc replied to the main post... nothing about infants... i was replying to that...

[monkeyes2]

173. excuse me...

i skipped threads without realizing...

[monkeyes2]

169. 1991 dutch report

what is your take on the 1991 report

"... according to a 1991 report by the attorney general of the High Council of the Netherlands. (The 1991 report is the only complete report on euthanasia practices by the Dutch government.)

Some of these deaths are the classic cases cited by right-to-die advocates: A terminally ill patient, in agony, demanding to "die with dignity." But many are not. An estimated 5,981 people--an average of 16 per day--were killed by their doctors without their consent, according to the Dutch government report.

And these numbers do not measure several other groups that are put to death involuntarily: disabled infants, terminally ill children and mental patients..."


http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95000390

[sonicx]

174. RW sources? Thanks. I trust you, now.

[monkeyes2]

177. Remmelink Report...

Professor P J van der Maas has conducted an official study of the practice of euthanasia
and other medical decisions relating to the end of life in Holland. This study was conducted in
1991 based on a sample of deaths in 1990 and details of some deaths in early 1991. It is often
referred to as the Remmelink report, named after the Attorney-General of the High Council of
The Netherlands, who headed the study. The follow-up study, was published in 1996 based
on a sample of deaths in 1995 and using a similar methodology.



Total deaths (all causes) 1990: 128, 786 1995: 135,546

Active voluntary euthanasia 1990: 1.7% 1995: 2.4%
Physician-Assisted suicide 1990: 0.2% 1995: 0.2%
Intentional life-terminating acts without explicit concurrent request 1990: 0.8% 1995: 0.7%
Opioids in large doses 1990: 18.8% 1995: 19.1%
Withdrawing/with-holding potentially life-prolonging treatment 1990: 17.9% 1995: 20.2%
Total of 1 - 5 1990: 39.4% 1995: 42.6%


Euthanasia, Physician-Assisted Suicide, and Other Medical Practices Involving the End of Life in the Netherlands, 1990–1995

Paul J. van der Maas, M.D., Ph.D., Gerrit van der Wal, M.D., Ph.D., Ilinka Haverkate, M.Sc., Carmen L.M. de Graaff, M.A., John G.C. Kester, M.A., Bregje D. Onwuteaka-Philipsen, M.Sc., Agnes van der Heide, M.D., Ph.D., Jacqueline M. Bosma, M.D., LL.M., and Dick L. Willems, M.D., Ph.D.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/335/22/1699

[dutchdoctor]

202. Thanks for leaving out the most important thing:

the authors conclusions:

"Euthanasia seems to have increased in incidence since 1990, and the ending of life without the patient's explicit request seems to have decreased slightly. For each type of medical decision except those in which life-prolonging treatment was withheld or withdrawn, cancer was the most frequently reported diagnosis.

Conclusions Since the notification procedure was introduced, end-of-life decision making in the Netherlands has changed only slightly, in an anticipated direction. Close monitoring of such decisions is possible, and we found no signs of an unacceptable increase in the number of decisions or of less careful decision making."


Why do you only post the things that make the dutch euthanasia practice look bad? What is your purpose? Don't you think a careful and rational weighing of facts is the most important thing in matters of life and death?

[Undercover Owl]

193. Wall Street Journal is RW?

I didn't know that.
Seriously, is that true?

[dpibel]

199. This just in!!

Bear shits in woods!!!
Pope wears beanie!!!!
Wall Street Journal is right-wing fishwrap!!!!!

To be precise: the WSJ news department actually relies on facts most of the time. The opinion section, however, is fueled entirely by high-test Koolaid.

The latter is the source of the monkey's irrefutable evidence.

[Undercover Owl]

200. LOL@ pope wears beanie

Thanks for the chuckle.

[fleabert]

133. while I agree that euthanasia should be a choice for some, I disagree that

not eating is painful. Uncomfortable at first, but not painful on the whole. What we experience, or think we would experience from being really hungry on occasion, is quite different from the reality. There is ample information out there about the difference between actual cessation of nutrition and 'starvation' as we understand it. When I hear starvation, I think of the little kids in 3rd world countries with the swollen bellies. Those people are in pain, but not from starvation alone. There are other factors contributing to the pain.

I encourage you to read the link offered elsewhere in the thread to www.dyingwell.com, and the bit I quoted from there as well.

This will not be painful for Terri. For one, she doesn't have a brain to read any pain signals in the first place, and for two, it wouldn't stimulate those signals anyway. And, since we, the living, are exceptionally sensitive about the slightest possiblility of pain - no matter point one and two - she will be given morphine 'just in case'. anyone would be. Superfluous IMO, but it will be done no doubt, actually -IS being done, as the tube is still out.

[Susang]

149. I agree with you regarding legal euthanasia

As to starvation, I'm not so sure. My guess it that the situation is different from patient to patient. From what I've heard from my friends and relatives who work with terminal patients, it usually produces a sort of euphoria and starvation/dehydration is often the eventual cause of death in these cases.

Not being a doctor, it's hard for me to formulate a truly educated opinion about it. There is too much to learn about it in one afternoon.

[Mabus]

178. the irony is

her family is more concerned about her eating now then they were when she was a bulimic and caused this condition herself.

Let's face it, she was slowly starving her body to death before. The only difference between now and then is that she can't feel it now.