Judge Greer: Republican, Baptist, has been kicked out of his CHURCH!

[Modem Butterfly]

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/22/Tampabay/Judge_Greer_parts_way.shtml

CLEARWATER - Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge George Greer left his church last week after the pastor wrote him a letter suggesting "it might be easier for all of us" if he leave.

Greer, whose orders on the Terri Schiavo case have brought him criticism, is a Southern Baptist who attended Calvary Baptist Church in Clearwater.

Rice's letter became public when he sent a copy to the Clearwater courthouse. Rice also said the church supports keeping Schiavo alive, though he said he was "truly saddened and embarrassed by the level of harassment and vitriolic nature of so many comments that purportedly come from people of faith."

Rice, who has been pastor at the church for five months, added: "But you must know that in all likelihood it is this case which will define your career and this case that you will remember in the waning days of life. I hope you can find a way to side with the angels and become an answer to the prayers of thousands."

Edited to clarify title

[rkc3]

1. That's one way to separate church and state.

[caligirl]

2. OMG !!!

[daydreamer]

30. That's my reaction. Unbelievable.

But nothing is too unbeliebable under Bush.

[forgethell]

60. Do you suppose

Bush called them up personally? Maybe it was Karl Rove who gave the order?:eyes:

[The Backlash Cometh]

99. Liberal issues are the new blacks of the new millenium.

Ostracism and criticism are the new weapons that the very white society of right-wing nuts are using against anything they don't agree with. It's just a matter of time before they start criminalizing left-thinking opinions.

[forgethell]

104. You can't

deny them the same weapons, ostracism and criticism, yes, and even ridicule, that we have used so effectively against them over the years. Can you? Something about the First Amendment? We used to be the best at that. Where did we go wrong?

[The Backlash Cometh]

128. Liberals never went into the McCarthy style mode that conservatives

are known for. Throwing someone out of a church is an extreme that only conservatives resort to, bBecause they are the ones who are really intolerant. If Liberals begin to show signs of impatience, then so be it. The right won't budge until they realize that we've reached detente.

[forgethell]

171. If you say so n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

179. I say so.

(Damn, wish they were all that easy.)

[pinkpops]

169. Here's their lilly-white suburban website

[ohio_liberal]

3. Even more compassionate conservatism!

n/t

[ultraist]

4. I'm not surprised

Those fundies are extremely controlling over others, including those of us who believe in seperation of church and state.

This church obviously is punishing this judge for following the letter of the law, rather than infusing their religion into the law. Kudos to Judge Greer for upholding the law, rather than allowing a church's will determine his decisions.

[ktowntennesseedem]

29. Me, neither. That's typical Southern Baptists for you.

If you don't conform, out you go! No more room for diversity; become a clone or else.

[ohio_liberal]

32. In defense of the south...

My (former) PCUSA church in Ohio tossed out an outstanding minister because he didn't conform.

[Rockholm]

138. It's the official name of the church.

Southern Baptist Church. It would be the same bunch of bigots if it were called the Northern Baptist Church. Being Southern has nothing to do with this.

[VTMechEngr]

195. PCUSA did? Thats the Good Presbyterian Church. Very Democrat friendly

[ernstbass]

208. Thanks for your post pointing out

that stuff like this happens all over the country.

[forgethell]

52. You seem to know

nothing of Southern Baptists. there is plenty of diversity in the SB churches. Some more so than others. That was a fairly bigoted statement that you made.

And in any event, they didn't harm or threaten to harm the judge. They just don't want to fellowship with him anymore. He did the right thing and left.

[ktowntennesseedem]

84. On the contrary, I know plenty.

I was raised a Southern Baptist, and watched the conservative majority make false accusations against missionaries and seminary professors and other good people for not towing the line and conforming to every detail of the new leadership's creeds. Support women deacons? You're out. Unwilling to condemn all homosexuals? You're out. Still support separation of church and state, the way Baptists used to? You're no longer welcome.

Oh, I agree that there is still plenty of diversity there, and I know of many situations where none of the above applies. But those are the exceptions, not the rule. Conformity is the new watchword, and dissidence not silenced is not welcomed.

I know that all too well.

[forgethell]

95. You need to

find another church, if you're unhappy where you are.

[madfloridian]

111. We left our Southern Baptist church because of their bigotry.

It is a very serious problem. The church has been hijacked by Falwell types. Many are waking up, and some larger churches are splitting up now.

It is not the church I used to know, and there is most definitely a problem. Sadly, some are just starting to realize it.

[placton]

202. Gee, do you also suggest that

if you don't like Bush's policies, you leave the country?

[forgethell]

206. No. But

a number of people have suggested that they are going to do so. As far as I'm concerned, they're welcome to go, or to stay. It's no skin off my nose, either way. That was a cheap shot, don't you think?

I simply suggest bigotry has no place on DU, or among progressives. Even against evangelical Christians.

[More Than A Feeling]

118. Baptists still support the separation of church and state

mainline/liberal baptists, that is.

[jackster]

97. sorry, BUT GREER left AFTER he was

first ASKED to leave. This position is indefensible if you claim to be a loving Christian (coming from an ex-Christian). I don't think he violated any of their basic tenets. There may be diversity in SB churches, but this is the epitome of hypocrisy and NON-CHRISTIAN behavior.

[forgethell]

107. Of course he

was asked to leave first. Then he did the right thing and left. I never said any different.

I claim to be nothing. Obviously, though, this church, or at least it's pastor, did. I leave all judgments of Christian and non-Christian behavior to God, who, I understand, is the expert about the subject.

Still, if they think he did something so wrong that they felt unable to worship with him any longer, wouldn't the hypocrisy be to continue to do so? That's how it seems to me. And in any event, they have done him no harm, except maybe hurt his feelings a little. He's a grown man and will soon get over it.

[revelhag]

149. why don't the Baptists

just lay hands on her and heal her like Jesus did? that would seem to be the best thing to do instead of all that hate slinging. I mean they should know how to heal if their real apostles, right?

[forgethell]

173. You're confusing

the Southern Baptists with some other group. They don't do that, or talk in tongues, either. And they don't handle snakes.

[brindis_desala]

134. While I sympathize with your frustration I believe it is misplaced.

It is not that people here don't recognize that the church was 'within its rights' to ask the judge to leave, it is the larger issue; namely that the self-appointed avatars of the Christian right have demonstrated with ever increasing candor that they feel morally justified to subvert the Constitution and remake the country in their own image. A democracy is no longer a democracy when the law is dictated by the priests. I tip my hat to Catholics like Cuomo and Kerry who understand the necessity to distinguish between individual moral and ethical convictions and the consensual rule of law. Ironically, the issue is implicitly rooted in the notion of privacy which you employ to condone the act itself, yet by expelling the judge the church has not only shown its impatience with the task of persuasion but contempt for the basic tenets of democratic government which affords it the very rights they rush to abuse.

[forgethell]

174. Exercising

your rights can never 'subvert' the Constitution. Expelling a member, which they didn't do, he left after being asked, has nothing whatever to do with contempt for the basic tenets of democratic government.

[bat17]

168. RE: "You seem to know"

I am an ex-Southern Baptist, so I have a pretty good idea. Southern Baptist congregations have been unceremoniously dumped from the convention for not following 'church doctrine'. They were just following the good old SBC line, period.

Doesn't anyone find it interesting that this SBC church asked Greer to leave, yet the church (non-SBC) of the (alleged) BTK serial killer is standing behind him.



"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-Voltaire

[forgethell]

180. The actions of one

person or group do not in any way effect what some other group should or should not do.

[NVMojo]

201. ...and Christ would do the same thing they did? Give me a break.

these people are charlatans.

[forgethell]

48. Nonsense.

They've withdrawn fellowship, not punished him. It's been a long time since I've seen it happen in a Southern Baptist church, but it's good old Baptist tradition.

King James Version (KJV)
2 Corinthians 6:14-17


Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

So, whether you agree with them, or not, on the issues, do you dispute their right to refuse association with the judge??

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. Nope. I defend their right to be assholes and my right to call them that

[forgethell]

87. You are absolutely

correct. You can even call them witch-hunters. That's your right. And as I have mentioned, having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

They had the right to ask him to leave, you have the right to criticize. 100% correct.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

101. Yeah..except I don't claim my actions are in Jesus' name

these hypocritical asswipes do.

[forgethell]

110. I f they believe that

they are, then they're not hypocrites.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. Sorry, they're either hypocrites or delusional..choose

[forgethell]

170. The choice is

not binary. I can think of several other choices, for example, they could be mistaken, but not delusional. They could be right, within the limits of their knowledge and experience. There could be no God, in which case their actions are irrelevant. There are other choices.

But, frankly, I don't care about them, I care about those who think that the free exercise of their right to freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of association is some kind of danger to the judge, or society. It's not. It's not even a step down the "slippery slope". That only occurs with the first acts of violence, or the threat of violence. All this 'witch-hunt' nonsense is just us being delusion, or maybe hypocritical. But at any rate: not serious.

[ktowntennesseedem]

92. Paul's talking about believers and non-believers.

You're inferring that unless believers agree on every point, they cannot have fellowship with one another. I disagree on a lot of things with a lot of fellow Christians, just as we disagree on this. But I do not dis-fellowship myself from them just because we don't see eye-to-eye on everything. We are stronger because of our diversity; it is not supposed to divide us.

Besides, I personally disagree with Paul on this, because I think we should not shun non-believers either. Jesus frequently dined with sinners and prostitutes; I don't think I should turn my back on non-believers. How can we demonstrate the love of God if we won't have anything to do with them?

[forgethell]

100. I'm not

implying anything. I'm just saying that they can do it if they think that this is a defining element of their belief in this church, and that this verse supplies sufficient justification for doing so.

Jesus did frequently dine with sinners and prostitutes, including tax-collectors, the worst sort of sinner, IMO ;) I see no reason why his friends would not continue to support him personally. It is just that the church does not want to have an official association with him. I'm not saying they were right to do what they did. I am saying that the Kool Aid drinkers who are comparing this to witch hunts and burnings are wrong, and are non-serious thinkers. It is nothing of the sort.

[morcatknits]

191. Jesus and Sinners

I'm glad you brought that up, because who did Jesus preach against? The Pharasees. Who are the Pharasees in our current culture? The self-described evangelicals.
morcatknits

[madfloridian]

130. Views like yours are why we left the SBC. I don't regret it.

I prefer a religion of love, not hate and divisiveness.

[forgethell]

175. There is nothing

whatever hateful about my views. I believe this decision is one for the church to make, and none of my business.

[morcatknits]

190. Shame on you

Even with evangelical proof-texting, that is some of the worst misinterpretation of scripture I've seen in a long time. At least, since I left the Baptist Church.

I was asked to leave, too, because I was divorced. It seems that my husband was sleeping with at least 2 other church women and a couple more at work. Having Biblical grounds, and learning that he had no intention of changing, thought it was his right to sleep around, I divorced him. I had been church organist, happily unpaid, for a number of years, but they asked me to leave because they "couldn't have a divorced woman in the church, and certainly not as organist." They were perfectly happy to keep the adulterer, though. No problem, there.

Not hypocritical? You'll never convince me. My experiences with the Baptists certainly made an Episcopalian out of me!

morcatknits

[forgethell]

207. The episcopalians

seem to be having their own troubles, nowadays.

[CottonBear]

5. Oh, the hypocrisy.

The people of the world must looking at the USA right now and recoiling in horror.

[DearAbby]

20. I know that I am...and I am a Citizen...Where are the Sane Christians??

I am really begining to hate thise people.

[JoAnnSimon]

147. Oh the Hypocracy

Cotton, I agree wholeheartedly. The rest of the world thinks we've gone nuts and wonder why more Americans aren't questioning Bush's legitimacy after two terribly flawed elections--the first in which Gore actually won, yet the five Republican justices of the Supreme Court placed Bush in the presidency.

The flaws in the 2004 election have been swept under the carpet by the main stream media, but the 2004 election was even more 'fixed' than in 2000. The reason--the paperless, electronic voting machines manufactured solely by Republican supporters, one of whom vowed to deliver Ohio to Bush. (Check into the backgrounds of the owners of the biggest two electronic voting machine manufacturers, and you'll find they are brothers who both hold felony convictions.)

And it's not just the individual machines that we have to be worried about being 'fixed.' The computer operated central tabulation centers in many states, which collect vote results from around the state can easily be 'fixed/changed' en masse by one simple computer hack into the system that no one will ever see or discover.

I won't trust another election in this country until all computers are removed from the process and paper votes are counted by old fashioned hand count means.

[Hello_Kitty]

6. Horrific

A Dem activist friend of mine commented the other day that she fears that judges are now being targetted, particularly by 'hate radio' agitators, in the same manner that government workers were prior to the Oklahoma city bombing. This is yet another example of that. I shudder to think of how this will affect their safety and of the impact on their ability to make legal decisions.

[katsy]

25. It will affect their safety.

Look at what was done to doctors connected with abortion clinics.

Their names and addresses were put on websites for any killer to target.

That's what will be done to judges.

[forgethell]

26. Wait a minute.

They kicked him out of his church! How does this compare to the Oklahoma City Bombing? That's the Kool-Aid talking. Baptist churches are voluntary associations on both sides. Sort of like DU. Nobody forces you to post here, and if the admins decide you are a disrupter, or a FReeper, then they don't let you post. No different, insofar as I can see.

[Zenlitened]

44. It's the demonizing of judges that's of concern here...

... Part of a wider trend, similar to the "hate your government" rhetoric that fires up lunatics like McVeigh and his ilk.

[forgethell]

45. I read the

article. I saw no indications of hate. Just discomfort with the judge. I'd hardly call that demonizing. In any event, judges are subject to criticism, just like the rest of us. Otherwise, I don't think we should say anything further about the 2000 "selection'. My screen name says all you need to know about how I feel about that.

[Zenlitened]

47. Um, okay.

I'd argue that tossing someone out of a church reflects more than mere discomfort. And that, again, this is just one instance in whole series of events depicting judges as an 'enemy' of sorts. Not a healthy trend, if one is at all concerned about preserving our system of government.

As for your screen name, I'm not sure what 'Forge Thell' signifies, nor why discussion of 2000 should be discouraged. :D ;)

[forgethell]

51. Well,

I didn't say that it should. Only that if we say that judges can't be criticized, then we are hypocrites if we criticize the Supreme Court for their decision about the election.

In any event, if he doesn't like it, I'm sure he can find another church that will welcome him with open arms. even a Southern Baptist church, definitely a Presbyterian one. I was a member of a Presbyterian church once, and they are fairly liberal, mostly.

Heck, as a Baptist, he can gather two or three other men of like mind and start his own Baptist church.

[Zenlitened]

68. I think that's a bit of stretch.

Let's not invent a false standard and then try to hold DUers to it.

Criticizing judges for ignoring legal tradition is one thing. A church -- which presumably preaches forgiveness -- banishing a judge who dared to uphold the law is quite another. THAT'S hypocrisy.

[thegreatwildebeest]

77. Not really

Not really. And I am on the side of Judge Greer and others. People can associate whom they want, and if the local parish in this case determines that the actions of one of its own is in conflict with their moral perspectives, than they are within their right to ask them respectfully to leave. It's just the same with any group of shared ideology, that seeks to accomplish certain goal. If I'm in a pro-labor group and a member becomes a manager or other person of unilateral employer status, I would suggest they leave too. It's a matter of conflicting goals.

[forgethell]

89. Whoa!!

Support. I didn't think I was going to get any. Welcom to DU:)

[Zenlitened]

114. Of course they're within their rights. Their actions, however...

... seem awfully "unchristian." That's the issue. That's where the charges of hypocrisy come in.

[forgethell]

80. Forgiveness

is a wonderful concept. But you know what? The transgressor has to ask to be forgiven. And make amends if he can. Just for the sake of argument, assume that the judge had transgressed. The church seems to think that he had. Has he asked them to forgive him? Not that I read anything about. Has he changed his ruling (this seems to be the transgression)? Not that I heard.

The judge is NOT banished from the Baptist church. Just this one particular one. This is not like excommunication in the Catholic church. He can probably go one block over and join another. Or if not, there will be some Baptist church that will accept him as a member.

All actions, even good ones, have consequences. The judge made his ruling, the church, or maybe it was just the pastor, asked him to leave, he left. I simply do not see that the judge has been harmed.

And judges can be criticized for their rulings based on numerous other standards than "legal tradition". Freedom of speech means that you can criticize him for anything he does you disagree with. Bad judgment, bad hair, bad breath. Freedom of religion means you can use religious justifications for doing so.

[Zenlitened]

116. I think we're talking past each other a bit here.

[BamaGirl]

127. I don't think this is true

The judge is NOT banished from the Baptist church. Just this one particular one. This is not like excommunication in the Catholic church. He can probably go one block over and join another. Or if not, there will be some Baptist church that will accept him as a member.

I was raised Southern Baptist and have watched the SBC become more and more bigoted and hateful and close minded every year for the last twenty. I have watched church after church adopt the extremism of the RR. I've done quite a bit of checking in my area and there is no church for me here anymore. They are all like this. After the 2004 election, I no longer call myself Southern Baptist. Because there are no non-extreme SB churches here. Is my area really so different from the rest of the South? I don't think so.

This is just another step for these fundies. Don't like someone's belief? Ask them to leave. Except that they have changed the very nature of the religion. There used to be tolerance in the SBC for a variety of views. There used to be a great deal of respect for separation of church and state.

He may not be banished in the same way that the Catholics excommunicate. But it is still banishment. Ask all of us who have seen our faith hijacked by the RR. They can't banish me, because it is not allowed in the faith, but what they have done is in effect the same damned thing. I cannot go one block over and join another church.


on edit...There is an exception to every rule of course. But liberal Southern Baptist churches are few and far between.

[forgethell]

178. Have you tried

the Southern Baptist Alliance, the group of moderates that left when the conservatives took over? Are they still around? I think so, but am not sure.

Baptists tend to split anyway. Not just over politics or theology. Personalities will cause the church to split. I can remember two such instances in my boyhood.

[morcatknits]

192. Untrue, untrue

The transgressor does not have to ask me for forgiveness in order for me to be required to forgive him or her. The prayer goes:

"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I realize it is a popular Fallwellian principle that we don't have to forgive unless the transgressor asks for our forgiveness, but that is just more Fallwellian heresy. We can't ask for more forgiveness than we are willing to extend. Period.
morcatknits

[forgethell]

209. We're going to

have to disagree on this one. God doesn't forgive our sins unless we confess them and repent. Basic Christian doctrine. I'm pretty sure Allah doesn't either. So, are we better than God?

However, Yes, I agree, we can forgive without being asked. Let's forgive all the Republicans and racists. The point is, we are not obliged to.

[coda]

142. I think there are indications.

To put it mildly.

"... he (Calvary Pastor William Rice) said he was "truly saddened and embarrassed by the level of harassment and vitriolic nature of so many comments that purportedly come from people of faith."


You just aren't privy to those comments and the article didn't ask him to give examples. Geez, Delay panders to that crowd and he calls it "homicide". What have they been calling muderers nowadays, such as the one arrested for the murder of the girl in Florida? If calling someone's decision "murder" and/or "homicide" isn't "demonizing" , then what is?

The Pastor is referring to comments that he's heard...imagine the ones he hasn't.


And "..harassment.." as "Just discomfort with the judge" ? I've never viewed harassment as a mere "discomfort". Using your most conservative estimate, just imagine the amount of hatemail he has received.

In the most civilized and "nicest" way the Pastor could put it, in his letter to Judge Greer, he invited him to, QUOTE!!! "...find a way to side with the angels...". , making it perfectly clear that he hasn't, so far.

Presents a rhetorical question, doesn't it?. If you aren't siding with the angels, then you must be siding with......?


I wonder if the Pastor is ever aware of his own "soft" vitriol?


Think of it.


You're a member of a church for years and in one of the most difficult times of your life you find yourself doing the only thing you can possibly do, because it's the _ right _ thing _ and the empathy and support that you receive???? It amounts to a hint, dropped like a 100# anvil, that you leave (I'm not reeaaally asking you. :eyes:) and a fervent hope that you "side with the angels" (It's soooo obvious that you aren't, because the prayers of thousands can't be wrong).

[Selteri]

49. It's still wrong for any church to kick someone out for

making a legal decision, from the judge's own words it was legal, not personal arguments that he had to uphold as a judge.

-In the legal opinions, pretty much every judge on this case has made a similar opinion, even the federal judge today who said the same thing.

[forgethell]

55. Wrong.

Maybe. That's a judgment call. I wouldn't vote for it, myself. But it is their right to do so. Just because you have a right to do something, that doesn't make it right to do. But it doesn't make it wrong, either.

[Catt03]

102. Oh Christ!

What the hell are you preaching here?

Every freaking person in America has rights, for pete's sake. We are discussing the christian values of a Pastor of a Church and the Baptists, if that is how they all feel.

This pastor is a narrow minded jerk and an embarrassing example of a "man of God."

[forgethell]

108. No,

we are discussing, and I quote, "witch hunts", "burnings", "criminalizing liberal opinions", "the Oklahoma City bombing", etc.

I say it's Kool Aid. Or 'spinach', if you prefer. Also, it is an extremely trivial issue. They didn't like what he did, they kicked him out, as they have every right to do. Their 'hypocrisy' is a subject fit for old grandmothers, not serious people. It has absolutely no bearing on the political process or the issues. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

[Walt Starr]

7. Does anybody need any more proof that the goal of the Religious Reich

is complete marriage of Church and State?

[BurtWorm]

8. Nice compassion there, Rev.

:thumbsup:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

9. Feel the scumbag love

.

[caligirl]

10. church phone number 1-727-441-1581

http://www.calvarybaptist.org/


And i thought Oklahoma had problems. These guys are as intolerant as the Islamic extremists.

[Just Me]

15. What do we say? "Thanks for proving what an intolerant, hypcritical,...

,...anti-Christian extremist you have become?" *LOL* :bounce:

[RPM]

34. whoa!!!

that place is creepy, yo.

geez.

the pastor looks like satan!

[d_b]

166. Haha, no joke.

I shall shower after that visit and sprinkle some garlic 'round my bed.

[shance]

123. Good for you Caligirl***Thanks.

This is so amazingly unchristian. Certainly not what I was taught in church.

Boggles the mind.

[skylarmae]

11. when I read things like this I realize how easy it must have been

for 'a few' to stir up a town enough to incite witch hunts and burnings etc. The mentality of this is beyond comprehension. And this is the leader of a congregation. And all in the name of the Lord.

[unhappycamper]

24. actually, this sort of behavior has been around for a long time

Pick a religion, any religion & you will find those who KNOW in their hearts that God has shown the one true way. Praise Jeeeesus!

I read this about a year ago: "Terror in the Name of God" by Jessica Stern. It's kinda interesting to attempt to understand how twisted these folks are.

[MountainLaurel]

69. Thanks for the book tip

I'm on the verge of finishing Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven," which is about the fundamentalist Mormon sects and the government and mainline LDS blind eye.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Scary

It reminds me of how it was in Jesus' days in the Bible. Those people were religious reich's too. Really far out there. :\ They thought they were right but weren't.

[forgethell]

56. Malarky.

This is not a witch-hunt, or a burning. They disagree with him, and don't want him in their church. No different from asking a guest at your house to leave.

[Auntie Bush]

70. Nonsense! "No different from asking a guest at your house

to leave." How about identifying with him and have a little empathy?
How would you like it if you got "asked" to leave your church? He's probably been in that church for many years and is the root of his social life. Why should he be discriminated against for his political/judicial judgment? IT'S HIS JOB!

[forgethell]

72. People

have a right to pick their own associates. People have a right to discriminate in social situations. Otherwise, every nerd could get a date with Nicole Kidman. So what if it's his job? They'd probably ask an abortionist to leave, too. Probably ask the local red-neck who makes crystal meth in his bathtub to leave, also.

For myself, if I was asked to leave, damn straight I would be out of there. Do I want to be with people that don't want to be with me? I've got more self-respect than that.

In any event, this is not a witch-hunt or witch-burning as one or two posters on this thread have said. It is not inciting hate. I think the reason the voters aren't taking Democrats and progressives seriously anymore is that so many of us are not serious people.

[Auntie Bush]

135. Speak for yourself!

"I think the reason the voters aren't taking Democrats and progressives seriously anymore is that so many of us are not serious people." Gag!
Isn't God suppose to love All people? Besides he wasn't asked to leave because of his social statis...he was asked to leave because of his POLITICS! Aren't "WE" suppose to believe in the separation of church and state? So it's OK by you that all churches around the country can toss out any parishioner that doesn't have the same beliefs as they do. I find it hard to even believe that you are a Democrat. Maybe we should toss you out of "our" party because you don't believe in the separation of Church and State as the rest of "us" do. I'm sorry but as you see...yiur post really upset me for you are against our whole philosophy. Oh I forgot..."we" don't have any!

[forgethell]

187. I don't know

if it's "OK" to do so. I wouldn't vote for it myself, if it was put to the vote. But I believe the church has the right to do so, and it has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Religious people have political opinions, too, which they are free to express and to vote for. The churches, themselves, of course, are not supposed to endorse candidates, although some of them do. The IRS needs to look into this. But they are perfectly free, as I understand it, to take political positions.

You seem not to have read my posts carefully. Let me summarize for you. I think the church was within its rights, whether or not it was right to do as they did. I do not think this action, even if wrong, was in anyway comparable to the Oklahoma City bombing or a witch-hunt.
I think it demeans our cause to indulge in such hyperbole. These are my only points.

If the Democratic party doesn't let me vote in their primaries, I will be very surprised.

[morcatknits]

194. Actually,

I think he was asked to leave because of his legal decisions, which are not supposed to be political, and should be based on findings of fact. Baptists aren't big on facts.
morcatknits

[FreedomAngel82]

156. So if people at my church

found out that I was a democrat and went around and campaigned for Kerry
and they rallied against me to kick me out that would be okay?

[forgethell]

188. I don't

really like to make hypothetical judgments like that. I wouldn't belong to such a church myself, and wouldn't rally against you. But if they have the legal right to do so; then they have the legal right to do so.

I don't know exactly how it is, but some people seem to think that I approve of this action. I don't. I just don't think it's a big fricking deal, either. The judge has not been harmed.

[zipplewrath]

86. Hardly nonsense

This isn't a dinner party, it's a church. As someone has said, it is their right, that doesn't make it correct. It seems a bit perverse for a church to throw out the sinner. What's the expression, "missionary to the converted"? If they feel he made an incorrect LEGAL decision, what does that have to do with his faith? If they feel he made an incorrect MORAL decision, how does ostracizing him help?

And for what it's worth, I have freeper type friends. We have them over for dinner. When we are together, we respect each other. It gets dicey on occasion. Last election was tough. The very thing that makes Bush so objectionable is that he shows absolutely no respect for anything or anyone that isn't loyal to him. It's a whole country, not just the "red" states.

[forgethell]

90. YOu seem

to have grasped my point pretty well. Welcome to DU:)

[Clark2008]

71. While most of your posts have been correct, the fact is you're posting

in a vacuum.
If it was just this incident, alone, then your points might be valid.
But, in light of the fact that we have wingnuts cheering the killing of a judge's family because they disagreed with her rulings and wingnuts on the radio advocating the destruction of law and order in "God's name," it makes this issue more serious.
Judges have a job to do like anyone else and shouldn't be persecuted in their personal life for doing it.

[forgethell]

75. Were these people

from this particular church? I do not see that the incidents are related. In any event, what one group of people does, in no way obligates another to refrain from doing what they seem to think they need to do. You can't lump all "Christians", even all conservative ones, into one group. The Southern Baptists, for instance, are not the same thing as Christian Identity. The Catholics, and the Southern Baptists, although they are allied on many issues, have deep differences among them.

What this church did is not hate, and it is something they have a right to do. Whether they should, or not, is a separate question. But the fact that they did has called down unwarranted amounts of vitriol on this thread. IMO

[Clark2008]

120. No - they aren't from the same church, but they are using

rightwing rhetoric to come down on judges - as in other cases.

Yes, the church has a right not to associate with whomever it wants, but the church's failure to understand the basic concepts of the separation of church and state should be subjected to vitriol.

The pastor actually told the judge he hoped he came down "on the side with the angels." I'm sorry, where did the pastor get his law degree? And, how would he necessarily know WHAT God would want - none of us do, which is why we are and should be judged by Man's law.

[forgethell]

210. So religious people

aren't allowed to vote their conscience and beliefs? Tell in to (Rev.) Martin Luther King, Jr. Tell it to (Rev) Jesse Jackson. Tell it to (Rev) Al Sharpton. Their vote counts as much as any body else's, and they can cast it how they like for any reason they like.

If they violate the law, the IRS should come down on them.

[forgethell]

211. delete

dupe.

[skylarmae]

105. are metaphors not allowed in DU?

If not, I apologize...

[forgethell]

112. I don't make the

rules. But I think that they are. Still, they seem to be a slight bit over-the-top to me. Sort of like old Joe McCarthy, you know what I mean?

[Maestro]

158. Nonsense

Asking someone to leave church for doing his job is ludicrous. Church congregations are made up of a myriad of people with different beliefs. The main unifying belief is their belief in God, the Holy Trinity, Jesus as their savior and so forth. To exercise exclusionary practices is highly hypocritical especially since this gentleman did nothing wrong except follow the law. The fundies do not know Jesus; they do not know love. They only know arrogance and intolerance. This is an important point that demonstrates the bigotry of the extreme religious right!

[BOSSHOG]

12. The Coward couldn't do it face to face

he had to write a letter. I'm having serious thoughts of leaving my Catholic Church. Not a Sunday goes by that hate comes spewing forth from the pulpit about those not in attendance. All the world's troubles are blamed on others. That's not why I go to Church. I wish the Judge well and unfortunately we all have to now "pray" for his safety from those who would harm him in the name of Jesus; that would be those who value life.

[caligirl]

13. the church phone line is busy x 2 must be getting calls from god.

[underpants]

14. Well at least they spared him the burning stake

at least for now.

Good Grief.

[Lars39]

16. Pastor Rice is defining his career among the fundies:

"I'm the guy that kicked the judge out of our church!",
proving that he is among the most holy of Southern Baptists.
This action puts him right up there with foreign missionaries
and other most holy members of the SB cult.
He will now be forever revered by these nut jobs.

[caligirl]

17. Phone line is still busy, must be getting directions from above.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

18. Heil! Heil! Heil! Bush! Sie müssen unser Savor befolgen!

This is exactly the kind of shit that happens when you have a megalomaniacal christofascist in the WhiteHouse working to subvert the separation of church and state.

JB

[Dr.Phool]

19. Yep, thats Clearwater

The Church of Scientology owns downtown, and the fundamaniacs own their minds.

One good thing. Going to a Baptist church for years, and reading the buybull turned me into an atheist!

[forgethell]

21. Wow,

it been a long time since I've actually heard of anyone being "disfellowshipped" at a Southern Baptist church. They can do that, though, as all Southern Baptist organizations are completely independent and totally voluntary on both sides. I have heard of churches being removed from membership in some local associations, though.

[FreedomAngel82]

22. Wow

I feel bad for him. :( If you don't step in line with the church you get kicked out. Scary. Our religious groups are turning cult-like. :scared:

[bloom]

23. that is disgusting...eom

[Alpharetta]

27. rightwingers sending themselves to hell

They'll show up at heaven's gate and Peter will say "You okay staying in the same house as this sinner over here?"

And they'll say "if heaven takes sinners like that, I'd rather go to hell"

[deadparrot]

31. Three cheers for fundie "Christian" love!

[Gothmog]

33. you got to be kidding

This is unbelievable.

[loritooker]

35. Calvary. Baptist. Church? No surprise there's no tolerance.

[caligirl]

36. All the busy signals I got were because my own phone is out of order

So I will have to fix my phone before I can call again. Darn, I wanted to ask if the troops, Rummy and W would be forgiven for torturing.

[Bouncy Ball]

37. Ha!

Way to make that judge want to be a Democrat!

[Ganja Ninja]

38. I expect that will lighten their collection plate a little.

I hope that everyone going to that church who believes Judge Greer did the right thing stays home and cuts off the cash that keeps these store front preachers in business.

[Zenlitened]

39. Maybe if the judge becomes a serial killer...

... he'll be welcomed back into the fold and granted "forgiveness."

[Modem Butterfly]

41. Good point: BTK is still a deacon at his church

Actual killers = good

Metaphorical killers = bad

[forgethell]

93. Do you have

the link to where the church knew this evil man was a serial killer? Because I missed it. This is a false analogy and extremely poor reasoning.

[Zenlitened]

121. I can see that you've appointed yourself Official Apologist....

... for this church. And you're hopping around the thread now,trying to shut down everyone who makes a statement that casts this church in a bad light.

Are you immune to irony? Are you impervious to current events and the wider context of the so-called 'culture war' under way in America today?

It seems to me you're deliberately missing the point of this discussion.

[forgethell]

172. Missing the point?

I don't think so.

I think if we support 'freedom' and "liberty' for ourselves, we should support it for our opponents, also. It's the only way the 'culture war' can be won, and stay won. The free exchange of ideas.

At any event, they had the right to do it. Are we opposed to people exercising their rights? They have offered him no harm, and if they want to ostracize him, I don't see it as any of my business.

And I am trying to shut down no one. How could I, anyway? i have an opinion, and I will express it, as is my right. You, of course, can disagree.

[Zenlitened]

181. Who says they don't have the right? Stop making things up, would you?

And spare me this sanctimonious lecturing about the 'free exchange of ideas' and 'people exercising their rights.'

When has the consensus at DU ever been opposed to these concepts?

Really, I think you're just playing games, and it's getting to be awfully tiresome. Give it a rest.

[forgethell]

185. Sanctimonious?

Is there a consensus at DU? About anything? Freedom of speech ain't it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3190954

[Zenlitened]

189. Pssst... your technique is showing.

As the discussion strays further and further off course. :boring:

[forgethell]

204. It's

not me who's taking it off course.

[Pallas180]

40. Pastor Rice should be removed from his duties & church!!! what

can we do to facilitate that?

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

[Zenlitened]

42. Nope, I support his right to send his own church down the crapper...

... with whatever foolish and destructive behavior he chooses.

Not a church-state separation issue at all, in my view.

[forgethell]

113. I agree n/t

[coda]

146. I don't see it as a separation issue.

They've the right to free association.

[FreedomAngel82]

157. What are you talking about?

He is a judge but he didn't combine the two. Just because one is a judge for his job doesn't mean he can't be a reverend or a deacon in his church. Where's the proof he was combining the two?

[kaitykaity]

43. Just lucky for him this is the worst they can do.

Give them time and they'll be able to burn him at the
stake like they did to heretics in the old days.

[LynneSin]

46. What great news - we're gonna lose more fundies in the process!!!

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/22/Tampabay/Judge_Greer_parts_way.shtml

Some protesters go on hunger strike
PINELLAS PARK - For some who want Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted, protesting is not enough. They have gone on hunger strikes.

"She has a right to live like anyone else," said Becki Snow, who has pledged not to eat until Schiavo's tube is put back in.



Hey Becky, take a few more with you, m'kay.

I think of some of the great hunger strikes throughout history like Bobby Sands being jailed as a political prisoner with the IRA and the Women Suffragists of the early 1900 and well, this Hunger Strike rates up there with that guy who lived in a box hanging over the river Thames for 30 days without any food.

Go ahead and starve yourself dumbass!!

[sweetladybug]

58. This is totally unbelievable for the church to ask him to leave for doing

his job. Are they going to ask all the soldiers (who are fighting or have fought in the illegal war in Iraq) to leave their church for doing their job? I'm a christian and a baptist and I can not believe what the churches are doing. Thank God my pastor does not believe in mixing religion with politics. If he did, he wouldn't have to ask me to leave because I would be gone!

[FreedomAngel82]

160. Same here

My preacher last Sunday was asking why people have to be right and left in politics and can't find common ground with God? That's the only time he's ever talked about politics.

[MockSwede]

205. I like that thought

Common ground doesn't mean agreement but civility within and among groups of people - glad to have the preacher speak up.

[Toucano]

50. Pathetic! n/t

[BikeWriter]

53. Dizzy bastid!

[NewHampshireDem]

54. Are we sure this is the right church?

It sounds more like Landover Baptist, "where the unsaved are unwelcome."

Remind me, I can't recall ... is it Luke or John where Jesus says, "Throw the bastards out!"?

[johnaries]

193. You know what's sad, after visiting godhatesfags.com it took

me a couple of minutes to realize this site was a joke.

scary.

[Toucano]

57. Isn't it blasphemy to suggest that a man can answer prayers?

I thought it was God's job?

[FreedomAngel82]

161. Obviously not anymore

I guess that whole "judge not yest thee be judged" applies anymore. Or "love thy neighbor" or "turn the other cheek." I guess Jesus has turned into a badass now? And he also doesn't answer prayers. :shrug:

[Renew Deal]

59. Disgraceful peices of shit

have no respect for the country, the courts, individuals, personal rights, or morality.

[Dob Bole]

61. That's why I left the Southern Baptist church...I know many

who have been forced out since the fundies took over. Jimmy Carter among them.

[Donailin]

62. Oh. My. God.

These radical zealots set themselves up as God in determining the guilt or innocence of others.

Yet another example of why religion will be the downfall of this country, and I say that as a Catholic.

[Sandpiper]

63. George W. Bush is the god of the Calvary Baptist Church

Judge Greer is being asked to leave for not paying judicial homage to the politics of the Bush family.

In a way, Judge Greer has been asked to leave for not engaging in idolatry.

[ltfranklin]

117. What goes around....

Ah, so the Southern Baptist Church should have no problem with people doing what they used to do a while back (and some, I understand, still do):

"You can't put one of them (baptists/papists) into public office! (He/She) is just going to kowtow to the wishes of the (Church/Pope)!"

Yup!

[BrklynLiberal]

64. Intimdiating the judiciary!

[forgethell]

83. If the judge

can be intimidated by this, he's pretty damn wimpy, if all I can say. I'd bet he isn't intimidated at all. In fact, I'd bet he never even considered that they might be trying to do that.

[MountainLaurel]

65. Onward Christian soldiers!

Way to love your neighbor and all that shit.

:puke:

[YankeyMCC]

66. Sad

and I would think not a very nice representation for xians.

I posted something on this the other day when I saw an NYT article...http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/17/national/17greer.html?hp&ex=1111122000&en=9d475b95baaafda2&ei=5094&partner=homepage

In that article it says he's been threatened and has had to put up with protests from other xians (I don't know if they were from his former church or not).

It would have been nice to see other xians reach out to him to offer support and solidarity. I'm sure like any other human being his values came into play in his decision.

[cal04]

132. This article too, says he's received death threats

and we wonder why no one wants to speak out against these people.


Wishful thinking, omissions, innuendo and political power plays subvert truth about Terri Schiavo
By Margie Burns

One notes that the Schindlers' legal costs have been quietly borne by two large right-to-life groups.

when the Schindlers went back to court in 2003 to get Schiavo replaced as guardian (again by a sibling), Judge Greer allowed them to do so, refusing to dismiss the petition. This is the same Judge Greer now under police protection for having received death threats, due to the "religious" fervor being whipped up about this case.

I can understand the exhaustion of relatives who have done everything they can for a loved one, who finally have to give up hope and give up. I can also understand the undying wish of a parent who keeps on hoping against hope, who insists on keeping the child alive despite everything said by anyone else.

But this case doesn't fall into either category. Instead, it is being mounted as a continuous campaign, much like other campaigns. The Schindlers have set up a foundation for charitable contributions—now being investigated for violations of charity law by Florida authorities, according to the Palm Beach Post—and have received extensive attention, publicity and favors of everything from transportation to hair care from the interest groups and politically-allied individuals aiding them.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/032205Burns/032205burns.html

[AngryOldDem]

67. Who the hell does this pastor think he is?

I thought this paragraph was most outrageous:

"Rice, who has been pastor at the church for five months, added: "But you must know that in all likelihood it is this case which will define your career and this case that you will remember in the waning days of life. I hope you can find a way to side with the angels and become an answer to the prayers of thousands." "

If I were Greer, I'd be RUNNING...not walking...away from this church. He did the right thing by leaving. Nobody needs this type of guilt trip, especially one who is deeply embroiled in such a mess as this.

And who is to say that when this asshat pastor meets the angels, they won't say to him, "How could you have supported keeping one of God's children in such misery for so long? Don't you have the common sense Your Maker gave you?"

[Jacobin]

85. Why, he's a "Man of Gawd" doncha know?

He feels entitled in the Theocratic States of America to overrule the holding of a secular institution.

What in the fuck is wrong with so many people that they don't understand the critical, vital importance of the separation of church and state.

I hope the judge leaves the church and takes this as instructive of what a theocracy has wrought.

[AngryOldDem]

98. Or, as my hubby says about these people...

"He's been bathed in the waters of JAY-SUS!" (He sounds just like a two-bit evangelist when he says this, too.)

I've been thinking the past couple of days (dangerous for me) about this theory that the Repubs are coming close to crossing a line -- that they will finally go too far with their intrusions into private affairs as well as with their assumption (delusion) that they have a mandate to do whatever they want.

But I wonder if people in this country still have enough common sense to recognize when that line is crossed? (To many of us, it already has.) And if so, will they stand up and demand that it cease and desist?

[youspeakmylanguage]

73. Is it really that surprising?

When you associate with radical religious zealots, expect a knife in your back if you go against their groupthink. It's as simple as that and has been proven again and again over the past 2,000+ years.

[sasquatch]

74. This is why churches should should be forced to pay taxes

[MsMagnificent]

78. WWJD?

Who Would Jesus Disallow? "Ban" -- not just a deodorant any more!

Yikes! I guess Jesus doesn't luv & forgive us all...

[Jacobin]

79. but but but Joe Scarborough wants to know why 'librul elites'

don't like Xtians.

I can't understand why we don't all just LOVE the fundies. They are such a FUNdie group, doncha know?

They love wars to kill brown people, like other people to have babies even if they don't want to, love to make poor people starve, they just have so many endearing qualities, that I just can't understand why everyone doesn't just LOVE the FUNdies.

[FreedomAngel82]

162. Joe Scarborough should read this!

I wonder how these people would feel being called liberals?

[sinkingfeeling]

81. Wow, the Southern Baptists are so very compassionate!!

[Norbert]

82. Gets told to leave because he did his job.

unbelievable!

[Jacobin]

88. No. It's worse. Because he FOLLOWED THE LAW

and not the priests.

It didn't take very fucking long for this melding of church and state to create some problems.

[msanthrope]

91. Landover Baptist will take him.....n/t

[Paco]

94. Intolerant Bigots!

Very much like these intolerant bigots.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=60799&d=21&m=3&y=2005
:dem:

[leesa]

96. Good. Perhaps the good judge will wake up to the ugliness of

his chuurch.

[Alizaryn]

103. Yes, I can see it now ...........................

Jesus turning someone away for ANY REASON!

What a bunch of hypocrites, its truly sad.

[katinmn]

106. This is the House that George Bush built.

Divide, conquer, destroy America.

[cyberpj]

109. How dare you have a differing opinion! You're not fit for the love of God!

Amazing.

[Ilsa]

119. Greer was an answered prayer for Terri Schiavo!

Don't Southern Baptists believe in Heaven anymore? This poor woman will soon be in a much better place rather than being placed on public display with her contractures, PEG tube, etc. Don't they believe in dignity anymore?

This pastor should be ashamed for writing this letter, trying to question and get in the way of this judge's relationship with God. What a piece of work!

Hey Judge Greer, I bet the Presbyterians will take you. They still believe in Heaven!

[shance]

122. How can we show support and help Judge Greer?

Anyone with suggestions. Im sending this out to all my friends and I will call the church.

What else can we do to support this man?

[quaoar]

124. Perhaps Rev. Rice should have asked himself

Waht would Jesus do?

[sadhu]

125. things are completely out of control

in this country.

Each day I'm more amazed on what is happening.

[tnlefty]

140. Welcome sadhu!

I find my self saddened and freaked out a lot by what is going on.

[caligirl]

148. Hi Sadhu, welcome to this crazy place.

[maddezmom]

154. welcome to DU

agree with your post. :hi:

[imenja]

126. unbelievable

some Church they've got there.

[Mr_Spock]

129. Apparently they would have killed Jesus as well

What can anybody say to these people? They hate their fellow man and they hate Jesus. The only thing they admire are compliant cowards. Hell is right here on earth - I won't be visiting that church anytime soon.

[Bullshot]

131. During the 1920s, the self-righteous moral fanatics

thought Prohibition would lead to less alcohol consumption, less crime and a stronger family atmosphere in this country. Hardly the case and Prohibition was repealed.

The Republicans controlled everything during that time. Harding, Coolidge and Hoover were all Republicans and they had Republican-controlled Houses and Senates to work with every year of their presidencies. We ended up with the Great Depression.

History is about to repeat itself. There are too many similarities between now and 80 years ago for it not to happen. The political, moral and economical climates are too similar.

History repeats itself because we're too friggin' stupid to learn from our mistakes of the past.

[DirtyBirdOne]

133. This "Pastor" Should Worry About His Own Soul

When he is standing in judgement before God, I wonder what his response will be to this question that will be asked:

"Why did you instruct one of MY CHILDREN to leave MY HOUSE?"

[Lone_Star_Dem]

136. More distortion of the Christian faith by whacked out "christians"

Where I live we have one of these type of churches. They endorse hate and bigotry from the pulpit. The rest of the churches here may not agree on everything but they do agree on one thing. That church is nuts. It's referred to as "that church", it's almost like they don't want to say it's name because it's bad luck . During the time I've lived here I've noticed they only hold onto a few constant members. I guess it hard to meet their qualifications if you try to follow the Bible.

I was told that once they had more members but they tried to run our local Wiccans out of town and ended up being investigated by the FBI. It seems some of their members moved out of town after that.

[Don_1967]

137. Remember Jim Jones

This bunch sounds a lot like kool aid kids !!

[fleabert]

139. I hope he finds a church that won't shun him.

How very Christ-like of them.

"I hope you can find a way to side with the angels and become an answer to the prayers of thousands."

I agree, I am praying that her wishes be met, and the forced man-made 'life' she has had for 15 years would end soon. May she ride on the wings of angels! (one of my mom's favorite sayings, she is much more religious than me)

[ast_liberal2008]

141. What choice did he have?

He has to follow the letter of the law, he can't make exceptions for his faith.

[Democracy White]

143. Can you feel the love, brotha!!! Hallelujah!!

Hypocrites!! This is one of the reasons why I left Christianity in general and became an Ecclectic Neopagan.

Dee

[butchcjg]

144. "Be an Activist Judge or get out"

anyone see the hypocrisy? (of course you all do)

They're actually asking him to ignore the law and do what the "angels" want!???

Isn't that being an activist judge??

[JoAnnSimon]

145. A True Argument for Separation of Church and State

That a church leader/pastor should ask a Judge to leave the membership of a church because the Judge ruled fairly, but in opposition to what the church leaders were advocating in the Terri Schiavo case, totally undermines the church's credibility, and exposes all the negative impacts of the corrosion the separation of church and state guaranteed in our Constitution.

If the Judge left this church, I'm sure he must have left voluntarily in disgust, not contrition. This is comparative to a religious organization acting like a mafia mob.

[GoreDean2008]

150. OMG!

The key issue was whether Terri Schiavo would choose to contine the life support or not. After more than a decade of living in a vegitative state, a normal decent person is more likely to choose to end the misery to the person and the person's caring family members. Therefore, Judge Greer's ruling makes sense both legally and morally.

Pastors are not trained in law (though they may claim to be trained in the higher law of the Lord) and they are not the right persons to decide on who remains and who leaves the church based on this judge's ruling. This is very disgusting. America needs a massive national reform.

[WillyT]

151. Jesus... How Fucking Christian ???

:puke:

"Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do."

:shrug:

[JamboGuide]

152. This is why...

The Const. should be amended to INCLUDE, ONCE AND FOR ALL, that seperation of religion and govt should be PROHIBITED. And that any religious group that engages in politics should be punished. They MUST be STOPPED.

[WillyT]

153. Say That Again... That's Confusing !!!

BTW - Welcome to DU!!!

:hi::bounce::hi:

[0007]

155. Those goddamn freepers

[CornField]

159. I feel for Judge Greer -- same thing happened to me

I was also asked by my protestant Christian pastor to leave the congregation. According to him, things in my personal life were causing a "rift in the congregation." The personal problems were not something I had any control over. I was pregnant with our second child and we learned that he had a terminal neural tube defect (anencephaly). We had made no secret of the pregnancy and also did not make a secret of the fact that several doctors had encouraged us to terminate the pregnancy due to further complications.

I was a Sunday School teacher and I sang in the choir. The day I was called into the pastor's office, I was expecting him to offer me some sort of one-on-one spiritual guidance about my personal situation and the stress of the OKC bombing. (This was the same day that the remains of the building were demolished.) Instead, I was asked to walk away. I did. My only regret is that I wasted so much of my time and talents with individuals who obviously cared so little.

[FreedomAngel82]

163. Wow

Simply amazing. I'm so amazed at this. So disgusted. I'm sorry for how they treated you. :( :hug: Our country is far off the deepend.

[caligirl]

197. Sad sad, it amazes me still how cruel some are to those in need

of support. Funny how they never reject our money and time when we aren't in need of support and truth.Mine: School district and a child with diabetes type 1, major battle with lawyers. Before the disgnosis they loved my money and time. After diagnosis, they were as caring as Bush toward a kid with a new and freightening helth problem to deal with.

[johnaries]

164. Here's their website and email, I'm not SUGGESTING

anything....

website; http://www.calvarybaptist.org/
multiple emails, click on contact us on website.

Just thinking out loud, some quotations about the Pharisees and Sadducees and hypocrites in general from the Gospels might be appropriate if anyone actully wanted to send an email...

But, still, I'm not SUGGESTING anything....
:evilgrin:

edited subject

[adigal]

165. What a supportive, kind Christian Pastor Rice is!

Is he Condi's cousin by any chance???

[MichaelJH]

167. South Carolina Baptist

I'm so tired of the hypocritical Christians in the South; I'm taking my children out of here this summer. Even the schools are over run with these hypocrites. They don't understand Christ anymore than the Satan worshipers. You guys will not understand what they are truly like, until you live in a town full of them.

The church itself is a Babylonian temple, reaching to the heavens. The church is corrupt as a whole; Christ is not present in these prideful palaces. The cross is an idol and the bible is riddled with half truths.

I have looked all my life to find what is wrong with the Church today. Why does it do more damage than good? The best web site that sums it all up is:

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

They worship Paul more than Christ. It's not their fault as individuals. It's the corruption that has existed from the beginning.

Peace to us all – If they will ever grant it to us – very unlikely that will ever happen.

[amb123]

176. The United Christian States of America!

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS DEAD!!!

When George Walker Bush, President of the United States and "Defender of the Faith", signed the "Saving Terri Schiavo From the Satan-Worshiping, America-Hating, Traitorous Liberal Scum Michael Schiavo Bill", the United States of America has ceased to be a democracy and has become a Christian Fascist, Theocratic, Oligarchic, Patriarchal Dictatorship. Our Government of, by, and for the People has been replaced by a Government of, by, and for the White, Anglo-Saxon, Christian, Rich, Heterosexual Male!

Let's all sing the National Anthem with the new Bush, DeLay, Frist approved lyrics:

OH SAY CAN YOU SEE, BY THE LORD’S HOLY LIGHT,
THAT LIBERAL HANGING FROM A SOUR-APPLE TREE?
THESE TRAITORS TO THE FAMILY, COUNTRY AND GOD,
WILL BE SMOTE HIP AND THIGH IN JESUS’ NAME!
DEATH TO THE DEMOCRATS, MUSLIMS AND FAGS!
WE’LL STUFF THEM ALL IN BODY BAGS!
AND THE BLOOD-REDEEMED STAR-SPANGLED BANNER SHALL FLAIL,
O’ER THE LAND OF THE WHITE, ANGLO-SAXON, CHRISTIAN, RICH, HETEROSEXUAL, MALE!

I'm this close to moving to Canada to live with my Aunt.

Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, my ass!

[manxkat]

177. Praise Jeezus, they're eating their own.

Could this be a microcosm of Repugnican implosions to come? One can dream.

[Knight of Ni]

199. It's like the Pharisees getting kicked out of the Temple......

Only it's been much more subtle.

Remember reading about Jesus kicking the Pharisees out? My theory is that God is doing the same thing now, except now He's doing it more piecemeal, and He's not using His son as a proxy.

The evidence:

Bill Bennett, the self-proclaimed morality crusader? Gets outed for compulsive gambling.

Jeff Gannon? Just gets outed.

Rush Limbaugh? Busted for oxycontin abuse.

Tom DeLay? On the verge of indictment.

More will come. Have faith!

(But still stay involved.)

[lonestarnot]

182. LOL.... Wonder who cast the first stone? n/t

[johnaries]

183. My email to [e-mail]

Dear sir,

I was raised in several Southern Baptist churches here in Nashville, TN. My stepmother’s deceased husband was actually the Pastor of the first church I ever attended. She was a reformed Catholic, but actually helped her first husband graduate through Baptist Seminary and knew more about the Bible than anyone I have ever known. She was also a wonderful mother, who I loved as much as my own mother who died when I was only 11 years old.

During my early teenage years, I felt Called by God and participated in many Outreach ministries and planned to become a Pastor, myself. I was even fortunate enough to deliver a Sunday Night Sermon at my own church. Although no one was saved (presumably, all of the sinners only show up for the morning services) several did come forward to re-dedicate, and many more came forward after the service to congratulate me and encourage me.

However, as I grew older, I began to have more and more questions that couldn’t be answered by prayer or study. I began seeing more parallels between the Southern Baptist Convention and the Pharisees than I saw between the SBC and Jesus’ teachings. I eventually rejected the teachings of the church and renounced Modern Christianity, choosing my own path as I believe Christ would have walked.

As I read in the news that your church had chosen to abandon Judge George Greer because of the decision he had to make in the case of Terri Schiavo, I almost wept. This was probably one of the most difficult decisions he has had to make in his career. I have no doubt that he agonized and prayed over it every night. But, he ultimately made the decision that he had to make. I have no doubt about that.

But, when he needed his Church Family the most after making such a difficult decision, you turned him away.

I remember former sinners coming forward and loudly proclaiming “I once was a Sinner, but I have seen the Light and rejected Sin and I now Walk with the Lord!”

Now, every opportunity I get I loudly proclaim “I was once a Baptist and a Christian, but I have seen the Light and I reject Earthly Religious Bureaucracies, and now I Walk with the Lord!”

You should be ashamed for yourselves and pray for forgiveness, pray for more tolerance, pray for more understanding, and pray that God will teach you and your following to be more “Christ-like.”

Sincerely,
John H. Anderson

[MichaelJH]

186. This is my email to [e-mail]

You guys are representing a cult, I'm sorry to tell you that, but, it’s true. Try reading the Sermon on the Mount, one more time. You call yourself a pastor, a Pastor of what, truth, Truth exist in the absence of pride. You are eaten up with the pride of the one you so much preach against in your sermons. Pride is the church's enemy, and it is now taken over by Satan himself. I'm not calling you Satan, only the prideful church that hates the sinner and not the sin.

Please, please, see the truth for what it is. We must have love for all mankind, even the sinner that wishes us all dead. God loves all his children, which includes all human kind.

We have let God down
Love,
Your Brother

[Ravy]

184. Imagine the outcry if a church publicly kicked out US Soldiers for

violating "Thou shalt not kill".

The judge was doing what we the people paid him to do... judge on legal matters and leave the personal biases out of it.

[Albert Cirrus]

196. Mafia

This republican party is like the fuckin' mafia, you don't do what they tell you to do, they take you out. This whole Terri thing is a farce/circus.

[DirtyDawg]

198. Wonder what the good pastor....

would have said if Judge Greer had included a demand to get all his money back as a condition of leaving the church? Then again, what do you bet that he wasn't a tither thus making Pastor Rice's request pretty easy for him?

Greer's got to be thanking his lucky stars that he's rid of this bunch. Go down the street to the Church of Christ. Hell, they'll probably do a TV commercial on his joining up.

And furthermore, if there's anybody here that'll be in a position to know, I'd like to hear just how many of Pastor Rich's congregation decides to pull out of the church as a show of support for Judge Greer. I'd do my heart good to see them have to run an emergency financial campaign to cover the split.

[NVMojo]

200. If Jesus were walking the earth today, he would throw these Parasees

out on their asses. These type of idiots give Jesus a bad name. If they believe so strongly, then why don't they go lay hands on Terry and cause her to rise from the dead???

[Catchawave]

203. Such hypocrisy, I wonder how the congregation feels?

And why I support churches paying taxes.

Wonder how many felons are still allowed to "worship" there.

Argghhhh.

[MasonJar]

212. Dear Judge Greer, The Episcopalian Church welcomes you to

our table.