Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

My experience with death (re: Schiavo)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:53 PM
Original message
My experience with death (re: Schiavo)
Edited on Mon Mar-21-05 12:55 PM by WilliamPitt
First of all, my apologies to those who found my gripes yesterday grating. My issue was not with the topic itself, but with the preponderance of threads. If you think this topic is important, as many do, it stands to reason that you'd want fewer threads instead of more; that way, any and all good comments or data would be less likely to get missed.

But I bow to the inevitable and post this, the 374th thread on Schiavo. And yes, I have been counting.

Five years ago, in the days before the millenium, my grandfather put on his hat and coat, kissed his wife goodbye, and went to the hospital to get a number of ailments he was living with checked out. Somewhere in the process, he vomited some bile into his mouth and aspirated it into his lungs. Bile, as you may or may not know, is catastrophically damaging to respiratory tissue. He immediately went into respiratory arrest, and the shock to his body caused a cascading system-wide failure of several major organs.

By the time I got to the hospital, he was unconscious and wired into several different machines. One of the machines was a respirator, and the air being pushed down his throat made his whole body heave up and down as if he was fighting his condition. He wasn't. It was the machines. His body had basically destroyed itself, and he would need those machines to keep him alive for the rest of what remained of his life.

This man was, not to put too fine a point on it, the godhead of our family. His was one of the greatest minds of his generation, his personal and professional accomplishments would need another 374 threads to adequately describe, he was the most decent and honorable man any of us in his family had ever or would ever know, we loved him beyond words, and we had to decide what to do. After a long, agonizing debate and discussion, all of us decided that the best thing to do was to turn off the machines and let him go if it was his time. We did so, and he was gone.

This past winter, my grandmother suddenly came down with horrific and debilitating pain in her abdomen. By the time we got to the hospital, she was literally deranged with agony. The doctor's discovered that a major artery feeding her digestive system had collapsed, and most of her colon had died. It was like a heart attack, but in her bowel. Here was the Hobson's Choice: If she did not have surgery to repair the damage, she would die of sepsis in agony. But the surgery itself could easily kill her because of her advanced age. We opted for the surgery.

The surgeon was able to repair the damage, but at the very end of the surgery, her blood pressure cratered and she was put on several machines to keep her alive, one of which was yet another respirator. The doctor told us she would never come off it again, and if she survived, she would be eating through a tube in her throat for the rest of her life and unable to speak. Her blood pressure was not improving; the nurse told me they had given her the same amount of blood pressure medication they'd give a 300 lb. linebacker to no avail.

Another conference, another agonizing decision to turn off the machines and the blood pressure medication. She was gone before the sun came up. Understand: My mother and her brother had to decide what to do with both of their parents and the machines they were attached to.

Anyone who thinks decisions like this are reached casually is deranged.

Anyone who thinks decisions like this fly in the face of some kind of 'culture of life' are foul hypocrites. I get the sense that if Ms. Schiavo had been an Iraqi boy, an African American child, a Hispanic mother, an Afghani grandmother, an American soldier suffering massive brain trauma from an explosion in Mosul, anyone from Darfur or the Congo, if she had been anything other than a white woman in a Fundy-controlled state, we would have never, ever, ever heard of her.

Anyone who thinks Congress should be serving in the role of mother, father, husband, wife, doctor and priest in any situation like this has absolutely lost their minds.

Had someone tried to stop us from implementing our decision, after all the doctor's advice and the prayer and the tears, that someone would have taken an IV stand across the skull. It is nobody's business but the family involved, and the fact that such a thing has become a political football is perhaps the most nauseating public display I have ever witnessed.

But understand. This is coming:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/031605A.shtml

They are going to try to kill the filibuster. If they do so, the courts will be flooded with the same kinds of people who have initiated this farce surrounding Schiavo. Their way of thinking will become, without recourse, the law of the land.

Many people see this Schiavo thing as an example of the fundamentalist takeover of the country, and they are right. The looming fight over the filibuster is not merely an example. It is the last line, the firebreak that cannot be breached, the Alamo.

Endgame.

I devoutly hope that, when the time comes to beat back this filibuster thing, that 374 threads will be started, and all of them geared towards killing this idea before it kills us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Understood. But it's not an either/or situation, Will.
The two are part and parcel of the same damned thing. It's all about what is beginning to look like a tyrannical government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ALago1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm with you Will
I'm just astonished about the amount of threads on this subject.

Bottom line is that it is a very personal family decision that no state entity should be involved with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. You can count on my threads when time comes to fight the filibuster
fight!

Thank you for sharing this and hugs to you and yours! :hug: Having been there, I know the "IV stand upside the head" feeling. :grouphug:

BTW: Have you not yet learned that your mind does not work the same as others and your reason is different than others? It stands to reason that what is reasonable and logical for you many not be for others. "it stands to reason that you'd want fewer threads instead of more."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Black Elk's favorite mountain
was what he identified as "the center of the earth." He also realized that everyone elses' favorite spot was the exact center of the earth. Likewise, everyone's grandfather is a great man, and everyone's child is precious. That is, of course, the reason that it should be a personal decision, respected and carried out by the patient's family and medical providers. I resent the politicians who would degrade the discussion, and disrespect the families involved, by trying to make rules that would push their values on other people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Beautiful post H2O Man.
I was just thinking, while reading Will's post, that I thought of MY grandfather in the same way his family thought of his. I can't say enough good things about him to honor him and his memory. "Everyone's grandfather is a great man, everyone's child is precious."

Ain't that the truth.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Yes, everyone's grandparent, child, loved one is the center for "them"
Edited on Mon Mar-21-05 02:03 PM by ultraist
We had life and death decisions with my father when he was at the end of his terminal illness. All of us will face it in some capacity, one day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. As a nice companion piece to your post
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ah, So YOU Can Start More Threads While Bugging Others Not to
The usual bending of the rules to see how far they will go, then the RE-bending them just to show you can.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yvr girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Now that was gracious
He did start off with an apology...

I can understand how TS's parents feel. They can't let go of their daughter. They see things that give them hope, and they cling to them. I think it's natural. Misguided, but natural.

I place a very high value on life, and I'm not comfortable with people deeming any particular life as not worthy (of continued life.) That being said, if I were in TS's situation I wouldn't want to be kept alive. She isn't going to recover. She's only a nominally living example of the wonders of modern medicine.

This should be a matter between her doctors and her family. Pulling the plug isn't illegal. The courts ruled on that long ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. So Was Our Being Nannied and My Being Called "Snarky"
Was this poster's "graciousness" or lack thereof commented upon at all? Just wondering.

But to cut to my final chase on this poster's threads:

I have NO doubt that he is a good Dem/Lib/whatever-the-label and is very accomplished. The gripe is with the continued sucking-all-the-oxygen-in-every-room.

And *I* have started relatively few SHIAVO threads, while posting furiously in many of them, attempting to focus on the anti-democracy/wingnut-fundie-scoundrelism of the whole thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yvr girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm not really the counsel for the defense, but what the hell...
I'm not aware of you being called 'Snarky' - I have no comment on that one.

I think the OP is aware that he has rubbed some people the wrong way, or else he wouldn't have apologized.

As long as Skinner is OK with it, people can start as many Shiavo threads as they choose. Other people can complain about those same threads. You can also feel free to criticize the complainers. Fill your boots. Will Pitt is a big boy, and he can take his lumps.

I just think it's unfair to rip into someone for 'old issues' when they have offered an apology. I call them like I see them.

It seems to be counter-productive to me to talk about the discussion rather than the issue at hand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Well, *My* Defense (Because I *am* on the Defense)
is: #1---I learned many years ago that apologies are pretty much worthless. They are usually a way of getting off hooks, of starting the cycle over.

As for the inappropriateness of my intruding on the on-topic discussion of this thread-- it's not unheard of, and the blatancy of the O.P.'s starting a SCHIAVO-derivative thread after the apologized-for-bugging was a feature unto itself, needing direct facing.

Let's let this go at this, O.K.? S'long.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yvr girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I never said you were inappropriate
My last sentance was a comment on the wider discussion and was not directed at you or this thread in particular.

As for your #1 item - we look at life differently. So be it.

I'm done now too.

I'll even give you one of these. :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. very simply

The legislature has absolutely no business whatsoever masquerading as a family court for the sole purpose of political grandstanding. That's in no way their place to do so.

It's such heinous bull.

Having had to participate in a similar decision regarding my best loved grandmother, I empathize totally.

Not to trivialize, many years ago a dear friend had to decide whether or not to euthanize her dear great dane. He had become immobile and had serious internal injuries. I remember advising her to do so and said, "would that it were, we could afford to give our fellow humans the right to die with an equal modicum of dignity."

Beyond the fundies, it might be starvation and dehydration that has most up in arms. Whilst according to some, quietly in many hospitals, Doctors have administered lethal doses of morphine for decades if not centuries. That would certainly be far more humane.

Oh and I can't believe you're actually counting these threads.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. I checked my mother out of the hospital in late 2003
and took her home to die. Although she was getting hospice care in the hospital, you never know what communication can fail and I could have seen myself tripping the code team as they arrived. I made good use of the hospice comfort meds, and she died in her own room and in her own home in relative comfort.

This stuff is going to put the families of dying patients, healthcare workers, docs, and everybody else into a terrible position. People who don't want their deaths prolonged by technology are going to find themselves suffering it anyway, as soon as some relative blows into town and screams for heroics and threatens lawsuits. Even durable powers of attorney will be thrown out by litigation weary hospitals.

This idiocy (and the Democrats are to blame for it, too) strikes at the very heart of the constitution, at the separation of powers that has served us well until the rise of fundy fascism and one party rule. I will be voting against my Dem senator in two years. He doesn't deserve the office.

Big brother is with us, and he's ten times as dreadful as anything Orwell envisioned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. My son was on a ventilator....
and his father and I had to make the agonizing decision to let him go. I guess that makes us murderers if you follow GOP logic. Even though he was brain dead, just like Schiavo, he could still be "alive" today if we just kept him on the ventilator.

If the GOP takes away our right to make such personal decisions with our own family, what will they take away next? Think about it people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. Your examples don't apply
As interesting and heartwrenching as they are, your decisions were to remove heroic measures. Feeding tubes aren't considered heroic measures in this day and age. There's a qualitative difference. Perhaps you don't see it, but it's not the same at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. They do
within the concept of decisions that are extremely personal in nature.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. feeding tubes = life support
Even the National Right to Life organization's "model starvation and dehydration of persons with disabilities act", which generally is designed to prevent the removal of feeding tubes, has a provision that allows the cessation of hydration and nutrition "if there is clear and convincing evidence that the person, when legally capable of making health care decisions, gave express and informed consent to withdrawing or withholding hydration or nutrition in the applicable circumstances."

http://www.nrlc.org/euthanasia/modelstatelaw.html

onenote
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Amaya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. From my perspective,
unless, the patient has something written down in this type of a situation life should prevail. There is no "heroic" measures (such as a mechanical vent) in this situation. Many people for various reasons (either disease or defects) live quality lives and receive food and fluid by enteral means. Her quality of life is questionable, but repirations and heart beat are naturally maintained. Without an advanced directive/POLSTS I personally think it should be assumed that one wishes life under non-heroic measures. Being on mechanical ventilation and no brain function is another issue...those measures are above and beyond "ordinary" measures to sustain and maintain life.

all that being said, this is an extremely personal issue and it's godamn shame this has become political.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. And giving antibiotics for pneumonia isn't "heroic measures" either
Edited on Mon Mar-21-05 02:43 PM by ultraist
Which is commonly something that is NOT DONE, in life and death decisions.

It's not the level of medical care, it's whether or not to continue any medical care.

At what point should people have that right to make that decision for their next of kin? Do we have to wait 15 years? Does it take a complete disintegration of the brain? How much medical treatment can the State force on citizens?

We have reasonable standards set forth by State laws and they are being ignored by Congress. The Federal gov has no right meddling in private affairs this way, reaching in well beyond the standards set forth by existing laws.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm with Leader Reid on this (resisting the fillibuster elimination)
Edited on Mon Mar-21-05 02:57 PM by bigtree

I anxiously await the day when our party actually stands up and refuses to give ground to this ruling-class oligarchy which has so thoroughly trampled on our constitution during the time they have held the majority, on issues that contradict even their own stated ideology, for the short-term gain of their wealthy benefactors, their industry cohorts, and their bible-belt constituency.

We have always fought with all of our hearts and minds to stop the mindless assault on our democracy here, outside of the halls of Congress. What's lacking is backbone and conviction of our elected representatives in our own party who routinely engage in deal-making and sell our convictions out for political expediency.

Let's hope that as we lobby against these proposed changes that those Democrats, who cling to power by compromising on the convictions of we who elect them, stand firm.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC