One of my patients is a 41 yr old woman in worse state than Terri Schaivo

[maveric]

Was in a car accident 11 years ago. She was married to a man, who was not in her parents favor and he tried to exercise his wife's wishes NOT to kept alive by life support devices in the case of incapacitation. Well that led to a Schaivo-type court battle in which the parents won power of attorney/custody of their brain-dead, feeding tube and ventilator dependant daughter. He is forbidden from ever seeing his wife again.

This woman lies in a bed, gaining weight, hooked to a feeding machine and ventilator. She is not responsive, she just exists. Her parents are RW whacko's who spend their golden years doing volunteer work for Rep. Duncan Hunter(R-warmongering panderer, San Diego). These people are in total DENIAL! They come to me and tell me that they just talked to Cindy and she expressed this and that...Cindy wants Apple juice via tube not Orange juice this time... Its just fucking sad! She gets UTI's(urinary tract infections), eye infections and is prone to decubitus ulcers(bed sores). She cant sit up by herself, she cant even move, involuntary or otherwise. But the parents come in every day and play videos for her, talk to her, show her pictures. When they leave they crank up KSDO Radio, the Rush Limbaugh and Roger Hedgecock hate radio station in her room decorated by pictures of Aryan Jesus, George Bu$h, Ronald Reagan and Alan Keyes.

My point is that if Terri Schaivo is anything like Cindy then keeping her alive is cruel. There is NO quality of life. Just an existing mass to be constantly tended to.
If Jesus was going to bring her out of it(like the parents speak of from time to time), he'd have done it long ago.

Its not doing people a favor keeping them alive like that. Trust me on this one, I see it everyday.

[rogue_bandit]

1. She can talk?

If she can talk, she would say her wishes to you, the doctor.

If she can't talk, the parents are hearing voices and are not mentally or emoitonally fit to be making decisions for her.

What's up with that?

[maveric]

4. No she cant. The parents think that she communicated via

minor facial ticks when they ask her questions. No talking. When you wave at her of clap or snap your fingers in front of her face there is NO response.
Flatline!!

[coloradodem2005]

2. What does "Aryan Jesus" look like as opposed to non-Aryan Jesus?

Just curious.


FYI, that sounds awful. It seems cruel to condemn anyone to death, but when their life does not amount to much in that state, it seems much more humane. Why do the Republicans talk about how life is precious but don't care about the quality of life?

[maveric]

6. Large, blond hair, blue eyes.

Not a middle eastern looking man at all.

[NVMojo]

3. I know another case just like this over in Twin Falls, Idaho ...

I can't believe the similarities ..only it happened in the early 80s. She finally died...while in a vegetative state and on a feeding tube. Took about 20 years.

[JohnnyRingo]

5. "Quality of life" is a big issue in my world

I was faced with the mandatory decision of inserting a feeding tube into my dad's dying body two years ago.

I chose not to.

[maveric]

IMHO and professional opinion, you did the right thing.

We're not doing these people any favors by prolonging their suffering and agony like that.

[Auntie Bush]

101. I made the same decision Johnny. My Mother died Xmas 2003

from Alzheimer's. When she stopped eating and drinking they asked us if we wanted a feeding tube...we refused as she would have no quality of life. No one in the family ever regretted that decision...and I know my Mother didn't either. Bless you Mom!

I could tell you about another experience in my life regarding disconnecting life support but not now...it's still too painful but so apropos to what's going on now! But I will just say from experience...it's much better to turn things off and start healing!

Just think how much happier Terri's parents would be today if they had done what was proper years ago.

[merh]

7. IMHO, the parents are acting as God, keeping her alive

despite the will of God that she be allowed to die as her body and mind would have her do, but for the manipulations of man.

Talk about hateful parents to make her listen to hate radio when she has no voice to scream, tell them to shut up, I want to sleep or rest, or hear music!

My prayers are with her and Ms. Schiavo. My prayers go out for you too, that you have to be a part of this and watch her "exist" powerless to let her go and find peace with God. :hug:

[maveric]

9. Her sister came to visit and told me that Cindy was a very progressive

type person as was her husband and the parents hated that.

[merh]

15. Just goes to show you that she is not inhabiting that body.

If she were, by shear force of will she would cause interference to interupt the hate radio programs. No progressive could put up with that. Again, my prayers go out for her and people like her and you that have to continue to care for her. :hug:

[MsTryska]

39. good lord.

Her parents have trapped her in a living hell.

[Malva Zebrina]

8. I agree and because it is cruel it is immoral

I commend you for your professionalism in the matter.

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. how selfish can these parents be

Its all about them and what they want. People who would do this to their child make me sick.

[LisaL]

14. It makes them happy. As for the child, the child apparently feels

nothing, or not much.

[maveric]

27. They are not doing anything good for their daughter!

Who gives a shit if THEY are happy.

[LisaL]

28. I realize that. But then she doesn't care one way or the other.

[maveric]

35. She lies there with her eyes oozing, often lying in her own wastes

drooling, gaining weight, getting urinary infections and prone to bedsores.
That IMPO is cruelty!

[bettyellen]

37. just because the brain is gone, it's not okay to say "fuck their wishes"

.. which is exactly what these parents, and you are doing.

[Bouncy Ball]

74. Well if she doesn't care, then why don't the parents

just hook electrodes up to her legs and make her "dance" and sell tickets and make some money?

:eyes:

Sick.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. Now that's a real thinking person's post that shows real respect for....

...the person that body used to be.

Nice. Real nice.

[ultraist]

32. It makes them happy?

Is that an ethical way to determine what someone's medical care should be?

If she chose to have life supports fine but next of kin or guardians should consider what is in the best interest of the incapacitated person, not what "makes THEM happy."

Basing it on what makes "them happy" is a selfish and disrespectful approach.

[LisaL]

36. I am not going to argue with that.

But they probably think what they are doing is in her best interest.

[maveric]

42. And Hitler thought that what he was doing was in the best interest

of Germany.
I know, a bad analogy but they have pooh-poohed all medical/professional advice.

[ultraist]

43. They are defying her wishes

So they can leach an emotional fix off of her by keeping her body going. That is disgusting.

I wonder if they are spending her SSI checks too? Bet they are. Bet Medicaid pays her bills too. Too bad that money wasn't going to some children who need medical care. Absolutely selfish.

[maveric]

48. And these people complain about "Draining the system". Wefare

Medi-caid, etc...
Hypocrites!

[bettyellen]

so you have no basis to argue this further then, other than.....

they mean well.
lots of totally delusional people mean well. and the courts are trying to protect terri from their idiocy.

[LisaL]

56. So, what do you propose be done?

The parents went to court, they gained custody. Who should interfere and stop life support in this case? What if the woman in question was not married? If the parents want her on life support, who should have a right to say NO? As I recall, when baby Sun Hudson was turned of life support because his Drs. decided so, lots of you were screaming bloody murder.

[bettyellen]

67. since she has no brain, you're comfortable saying... screw her wishes?

i believe that's the view you keep posting here.
the husband decides. not the person with the endless bankroll.

[LisaL]

77. The husbands decides?

What if someone is not married?
What if the husband was the one demanding life support, but not the parents? Should Drs. be allowed to decide to terminate life support if there is no hope for the patient?

[bettyellen]

82. so you refuse to answer again.

and bring up issues that have no relevance.
what a waste of time.

[ultraist]

86. It's NEXT OF KIN who decides

We have next of kin laws. If someone is not married, the mother is next of kin and it goes down the line from there.

What is your solution?

[LisaL]

91. Well, obviously the laws aren't all that good, if the parents

were able to obtain custody over the husband, even though there was no abuse. I have no solution. Obviously, each situation is unique, but maybe we need better laws to deal with such situations.

[bettyellen]

93. your solution is to say "screw their wishes" since they can't express them

in a manner that satisfies you.

[ultraist]

99. The kinship laws are fine

If a family member wants to take custody over an incapacitated adult, it goes to court. Each case is different. In this case, they had only been married for two years. We don't know all of the facts of this case.

What would you change about kinship laws? What would you change about the court process?

You make a lot of sideways remarks but never state what you would support or what you think should be done.

[mondo joe]

108. The next-of-kin decides.

That's not exactly news.

[bettyellen]

33. so it's all about rewarding the selfish parents who lie about her ability

to communicate, and again, fail to give a shit that their child had a different take on things..... gotcha.
more patrirchal bullshit fed by lies.

[LisaL]

34. I don't think they are lying. They probably deluded themselves

to think she actually communicates with them.

[ultraist]

52. Deluding oneself IS a form of lying

[bettyellen]

57. the courts are here to protect terri from decisions based on delusional

thinking.
why do you support decisions made on delusional thinking.
just because she's gone, you think there's no harm in disrespecting her wishes? i keep seeing you argue this.

[LisaL]

81. If you don't leave a living will, how does anyone supposed to

know what the wishes are?

[ultraist]

87. Why do keep asking these ridiculous questions?

How do you think it should be decided if someone did not leave their wishes in writing?

Perhaps a court should hear testimony and decide as they did in the Shiavo case.

Normally, it is up to the NEXT OF KIN. If someone contests the next of kins decision, they can take it to court.

Do you think the next of kin laws should be changed and the courts should be closed to hearing these types of cases? Is that your solution?

What is YOUR SOLUTION?

[bettyellen]

92. read the trial testimony lizzy, and keep ignoring my question. LOL.

[mondo joe]

107. Well they admit they don't care what she wanted.

So they're willing to violate her wishes to satisfy themselves.

[Warpy]

11. It's really hard to explain to people who haven't had contact

with people institutionalized in permanent vegetative states just what the quality of life is like. You mentioned the infections and bed sores (which aren't like little knuckle scrapes. They're ULCERS and can go all the way to the bone). Also consider that the muscles atrophy and are replaced by fatty tissue with no tone, that the joints are distorted and frozen into positions that are painful to look at, let alone experience, that aspiration pneumonias from tube feeding traveling up the esophagus and getting aspirated into the lungs are common among patients who aren't on ventilators via tracheostomies. It's truly hideous to keep somebody's body alive like this after their mind has fled.

It's also hard to get people to comprehend just how out of touch family members often are, even non religious family members. They are so devastated that any twitch, lip smack, or random eye movement becomes proof that their family member is trying to communicate with them.

It took Michael Schiavo eight years to come to terms with the fact that his wife was not coming back to him, and even then, he wasn't able to order the end to life support himself. He turned over his wife's guardianship to the courts, and they spoke on her behalf.

I just had a wingnut tell me that no medical personnel had ever been at Schivo's bedside to determine if she could communicate. I had to ask him if he thought all the medical facilities that had cared for her had been staffed by auto mechanics. I got no answer.

[burrowowl]

113. So true!

with people institutionalized in permanent vegetative states just what the quality of life is like. You mentioned the infections and bed sores (which aren't like little knuckle scrapes. They're ULCERS and can go all the way to the bone). Also consider that the muscles atrophy and are replaced by fatty tissue with no tone, that the joints are distorted and frozen into positions that are painful to look at, let alone experience, that aspiration pneumonias from tube feeding traveling up the esophagus and getting aspirated into the lungs are common among patients who aren't on ventilators via tracheostomies. It's truly hideous to keep somebody's body alive like this after their mind has fled.

It's also hard to get people to comprehend just how out of touch family members often are, even non religious family members. They are so devastated that any twitch, lip smack, or random eye movement becomes proof that their family member is trying to communicate with them.

How many here saying 'she should be kept alive' have kept vigil while someone dies or cared for them physically (change the sheets, turn them, catheter infections, etc.?

[Fridays Child]

12. These stories will not be told. Most Americans believe that the...

...the Schiavo case is unique in the annals of medicine. This whole circus sickens me beyond words.

[LisaL]

13. How were they able to obtain the guardianship over the husband?

[Warpy]

16. he petitioned the court to act as her guardian.

Read the whole sickening, sorry story at http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[maveric]

18. A multi-year court battle. They had money for a lawyer and he didnt.

He ran out of money and had to take what he could get as far as legal representation went. These people(parents) are well-connected with republican bueracrats here in San Diego County. They had money and political pull. The husband was a painting contractor just barely making it.

[LisaL]

25. Thanks.

I wonder how Mr. Schiavo is paying Mr. Felos. Or is Mr. Felos representing him for free?

[EFerrari]

17. If she's getting bedsores, they're not taking care of her.

We took care of my grandmother for nearly a decade. She was a little more functional but not more "present". She wasn't on life support, could eat and drink. And had a big old strong heart that finally gave out.


These people are selfish, cruel AND irresponsible. You can prevent bedsores. It takes a lot of work, but they're are preventable.

[LisaL]

20. Isn't medical personal supposed to take care of bedsores?

Also, as I understand it, most people who are bedridden get them.

[maveric]

31. If they are turned frequently.

Severe understaffing in CA's healthcare system makes that difficult at times.
Most "bedsores" I have seen, seem to come from patients coming from hHospitals not from Convalescent/Long Term care centers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Bed Sores Are Often Treated As Prima Facie Evidence Of Abuse By The Courts

I'm not saying I agree...


I am just making an observation.....

[ultraist]

60. That is total BS, do you have a link?

Christopher Reeves even had bedsores.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. Here We Go:

First let's start with a definition of what prima facie evidence is and how the burden shifts from the person making the allegation to the person or persons defending themselves against the allegation:

Prima facie

Prima facie is a Latin expression meaning "at first sight," used in Common law regions to denote a case that is strong enough to justify further discovery and possibly a full trial.

For example, being found standing near a dead gunshot victim with a smoking gun in your hand would establish a prima facie case for murder.

Prima facie is often confused (even by legal scholars) with res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself), the legal doctrine which establishes that the evidence on its own is sufficient to establish the fact in question unless it is explicitly rebutted by other evidence or mitigating circumstances.

In plain english: means that the case fits together perfectly at first sight

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. Now Let's Move To Bed Sore Litigation And Nursing Homes

A common form of general neglect is the development of bed sores. These are referred to as decubitus ulcers or pressure sores, bed sores are lesions caused by unrelieved pressure resulting in damage of the underlying tissue. Bed sores usually develop over the bony prominences and are classified by the degree of tissue. Most common areas for development are the buttocks, hips, and heels, but are also known to develop on the shoulder blades, ears, and ankles. The unrelieved pressure, along with other contributing factors, leads to the skin breakdown and persistent ulcerations. The presence of bed sores does not necessarily suggest negligent care, but it is a strong indication that family members should beware.

Simply stated, bed sores should not develop. The common cause of bed sores are failure of the nursing home staff to make sure that the resident is moved, or turned


http://www.dominalaw.com/CM/Literature/Literature55.asp


I don't want to spam the board ... I suggest you type in bed sores and nursing home litigation...

[maveric]

75. Some bedsores develop from home care or hospitals.

When the patient is dumped off to the nursing home, the nursing home usually gets the blame.

[bettyellen]

80. i don't see the successful prosecution you cited?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. It's Civil...

Are you implying that a nursing home has never been successfuly sued because a patient died from untreated bed sores?

[bettyellen]

90. not, just that you haven't cited the case as you said you would......

when a person doesn't move at all, bedsores are in a different category: bedsores are very very common. . terri is not your average nursing home patient, i'm sorry.
and her medicade is probably not going to pay for enough therapy to completely prevent them.
if you can find a case where a nursing home was sued on behalf of a motionless patient, it might mean something. but this is so off the point already. yeah, some hospitals provide inadequate care. they get sued. i'm not sure how relevant that is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. All I Sad Was There Has Been Beaucoup Case Law On Bed Sores And Nursing

Homes...


You added the condition of mobility... Here's some

links....

http://www.centuryconsulting.net/spring03.htm

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/262http://www.web.net/ohc/citizen.htm


http://www.csklegal.com/CM/Articles/Articles46.asp

[bettyellen]

98. well, mobility is the core issue in the creation of bed sores, medically

speaking. there's a direct corelation between the two. and a lot of people are comparing terri to their grandparents who could actually move around a bit do things. it's not relevant if they're not motionless. being motionless is what causes them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. I Agree Then...

My mom had gangrene in her foot due to medical malpractice... Long story...

Any way in an attempt to save the foot after the gangrene and medical malpractice was discovered she must have been confined to a bed for over a month... First they treated wher with coumadin and heparin and when that didn't work they did a femoral popliteal bypass to restore blood flow to my mom's foot... When that failed they had to perform a below the knee amputation.. All in all she must have been confined to a bed for nearly six weeks.. She never developed a bed sore... I guess they must have moved her around the bed a bit...

Anyway she was in a nursing home for about four weeks after she was released from the hospital because she was waiting to be fitted for a prosthesis....


Some nursing homes suck... I wouldn't put my worst enemy in some of them...


This was in 1996 when my mom was seventy eight... God bless her... She's in the other room watching tv or napping..

I have taken care of her since...

[bettyellen]

106. i am sorry to hear that... my mom is lucky to have excellent care givers

and so far, no sores. but she is physically shutting down, and they will be part of her future someday as her Alheimers gets into the last stage... if she lasts that long. the docs say it's amazing none have developed over the last three years.
it took very little time for my dad to delelop them. he could move, but they tied him up becasue he would have pulled the tube out. people don't realize this is often the case with tube fed people. your hands are tied all day long, because it itches and if the person isn't sane they'll pull at the tube. he used to choke on the food repeated up from the tubes, they use a vacum up your nose and down your throat to clean it out. he used to wail in pain. he got pnemonia from the feed getting into his lungs. but we had no choice to remove the tube back then. the best we could do is make him a DNR and wait. imho, people romanticize this feeding thing a great deal when the reality can be quite different.

[ultraist]

104. Notice how he adds the word "untreated"

And later, "ridduled" with bedsores.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. I Never Made All These Grandiose Statements...

I just said bedsores are prima facie evidence of abuse...

You brought up Christopher Reeves...


I am sure he had excellent care...


If he indeed did have bed sores then his immobility would have presumably overcome the presumption that his bedsores were the result of neglect...


I never said prima facie evidence was dispositive; only that it shifts the burden of proof...


What are we argiung?

The definition of prima facie evidence or what constitutes prima facie evidence or are bed sores prima facie evidence of neglect...

[ultraist]

83. Bedsores may or may NOT indicate neglect

Anyone with a nominal amount of common sense understands that. If a patient had a bruise, does that prove neglect?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?objectid=C4568BFE-C4F6-4647-978B9407114EBEC6
If you're concerned an older adult might be abused, knowing the signs and symptoms of abuse can help you determine if a problem exists. These signs and symptoms may include:

Physical injury. Examples of questionable injuries include bruises, cuts, burn or rope marks, and broken bones or sprains that can't be explained. Other signs of potential problems include sudden changes in behavior, comments about being battered or the refusal of the caregiver to allow you to visit the older person alone.

Lack of physical care. Indications of substandard physical care include dehydration, malnourishment, weight loss and poor hygiene. Bed sores, soiled bedding, unmet medical needs and comments about being mistreated also may indicate a problem. Lack of physical care can happen to older adults living in their homes, as well as those in institutional care, such as a nursing home.
Unusual behaviors. Changes in an older person's behavior or emotional state may suggest a problem. Examples include agitation, withdrawal, fear or anxiety, apathy, or reports of being treated improperly.

Having bedsores does not mean there IS neglect. No need for you to get snippy. sheeesh.

[EFerrari]

96. Gosh, I apologize for starting this whole deal.

I generalized from my experience, never a good idea.

And that was, my family member was put in a nursing home for 48 hours. We went to check in, she was developing sore. So, we brought her back home. And we worked around the clock with her for most of a decade to make sure she didn't develop that condition.

But that was one body in one situation with the attention of a large extended family who all pitched in.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

97. Au Contraire...

All I said are that bed sores are an indication that's somethings not right and you said "bullshit"...


Go to a trial lawyer and tell him or her grammy is riddled with bedsores and he will tell you further investigation is warranted as that is what "prima facie" of abuse...


prima facie evidence

Evidence that is sufficient to raise a presumption of fact or to establish the fact in question unless rebutted

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p078.htm

[ultraist]

103. "ridduled with bedsores" WTF?

Why are you attempting to distort the facts? Bedsores MAY OR MAY NOT indicate abuse. This is common sense.

It depends on how many or if there is a secondary infection which has been left untreated.

UNTREATED INFECTED bedsores is another matter. If they are left UNTREATED, yes, that's pretty clearly a sign of neglect. ANY INFECTION LEFT UNTREATED may well be neglect. Although, sometimes, people have signed orders NOT to treat any infections, as part of their advance directives.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. I Am Not Trying To Distort Anything...

Bedsores are prima facie evidence of neglect... The burden shifts from the person making the claim to the person defending the claim...


Let me give you an example...My friend was the Human Resources director for a medium sized city... I'll give you a hint.. It's the city that hosts the "Mouse"...

Any way if there are not enough African Americans or women that is prima facie evidence of discrimination... The burden then shifts to the Human Resources Director to demonstrate why there are other explanations other than discrimination...

That's all I meant when I said that courts consider bedsores as prima facie evidence of neglect...

[bettyellen]

45. LOL. the ignorance is just too much for me.

yeah, bedsores don't happen under medicaid care to motionless patients.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Why Is That An Ignorant Obervation...

I know many trial attorneys who have made a living suing nursing homes who neglected their patients and they died of complications from bedsores which really isn't all that amazing when you consider how compromised their bodys are to begin with...


Also, it's a violation of DU rules to call someone ignorant...

[bettyellen]

62. she admitted ignorance by stating a belief that bed sores can be "taken

care of" easily by the nursing staff. when a person is motionless, it takes a great deal of work-- work that medicade is not going to pay for.
i used ignorance regarding the post, not the poster. there's a difference.

[maveric]

63. People die from "bed sores".

They are horrible!

[bettyellen]

71. and almost impossible to control in the "lifeless".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. I Am Very Familiar With Bed Sores...

I am not an expert on bed sores but they can be indicative of poor care...


There's case law of people dieing in nursing homes from bed sores... I don't remember the case now but the person had literally dozens...


Sad....

[PittLib]

112. My stepbrother is a quad...

About three months after his accident, he developed a particularly nasty bedsore that required a skin graft. I don't think he's getting the best care (not many choices because he's on vent) but I think it was mainly due to depression and denial of care. My mother thought it was a passive aggressive form of suicide. Either that or complete ignorance to the dangers bedsores pose.

[ultraist]

72. IF they got infected and were left untreated

Bedsores may or may NOT indicate neglect. IF they become infected and are left untreated, that can prove neglect. But just having bedsores is not proof of neglect.

[maveric]

24. Because of sever understaffing, patients cant always be"turned"

every 2 hours like they should. Thats another tragedy there. Not enough nurses/CNA's. Facilities unable to afford hiring more nurses...

[LisaL]

26. I understand that. I am just saying I don't think parents are to blame

that she is getting bedsores.

[ultraist]

38. Even Christopher Reeves had bedsores

And he had the best care money could buy. They occur when someone cannot move.

He had gotten horrible infections from those sores.

[maveric]

41. They are indirectly. They are prolonging her suffering and leaving her

open to infections and pneumonia possibilities.

OK lizzy, come to San Diego and I'll sneak you in to see this woman for a few hours and I'll guarantee that you'll change your stance on this.
OK?

[LisaL]

94. Did I say she should stay on the ventilator?

Obviously, it's not up to me.
If it was up to me, I would say that's someone who can not even breathe on their own for so many years should be let go. But I don't get to decide, do I?

[Warpy]

29. Understaffed nursing homes

are not always able to provide the frequent repositioning that PVS patients require. Bedsores can develop in under 3 hours. They can progress rapidly even after the pressure has been relieved. Poor muscle tone, lack of vountary or involuntary movements, poor nutrition can all contribute.

There's a limit to what one nursing assistant can do with up to thirty bedridden patients, and that's often what the staffing is like at night in even the better nursing homes.

[maveric]

47. Thank you Warpy! And Schwartzenegger just increase the ratio

of patients to nuses from 5:1 to 6:1. Thats his way of aiding the nursing shortage here in CA.

[havocmom]

59. Limits on what NAs can do with 30 bedridden patients is an understatement

Those patients are doing well if a NA manages to keep their soiled diapers changed in a timely manner with that workload.

Not a lot of people going into the field either. Work is hard, both physically & emotionally if you are a caring person. Pay is the pits, and respect for what you do manage to do usually zip while criticism about what you haven't been able to do comes from all directions.

And let us not forget that there are assholes among the ranks of near saints caring for patients. Sexual abuse is not unheard of. How about THAT little gem added to the misery many people are sentenced to through no fault of their own.

[bettyellen]

44. that's different, your grandma had mobility. that makes a huge difference

it gets a lot harder when the patient is rigid like terri.

[Cleita]

19. You've just described the high tech modern version of

mummification. Ancient cultures mummified their ancestors, talked to them, brought them food, dressed them and treated them as if they were alive, just because their bodies hadn't decomposed.

[LisaL]

23. Well, nobody demanded they stopped mummification.

Was mummification a wrong thing to do?

[Cleita]

64. It could be, if the mummy was using up resources that

live humans or other living beings needed, like food and space.

[LisaL]

70. I am pretty sure mummies were using a lot of recourses.

Mummies would get jewels, gold, everything they needed in the afterlife, etc.

[Cleita]

85. In some culture, but in other cultures mummies are

part of the household, own land, are given food and drink. It's believed that the land owning mummies could have had a part in the fall of the Incas to the Spaniards because of the unbalanced allocation of resources. They are still paraded in festivals, asked for advice and preside at councils.

[LisaL]

88. Nothing changed much since then, hah?

[Historic NY]

21. Sad, very sad case.....and now the government will keep your mortal

remains alive even thou your dead but just don't know it.

[ultraist]

22. Do you know any details on how the husband lost custody?

How long had they been married? Or was he shown to have been abusive? On what grounds did they terminate custody?

[Warpy]

30. http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html


He didn't "lose" custody. He gave it up voluntarily.

Now read.

[ultraist]

51. According to the OP, the parents "won" custody

Well that led to a Schaivo-type court battle in which the parents won power of attorney/custody of their brain-dead, feeding tube and ventilator dependant daughter

Conversely, he "lost" custody whether it was terminated by the courts or voluntarily.

Thanks for the links but that is the Shiavo case, not this one.

[maveric]

55. He did "lose" custody.

They were close to powerful politicians and had money. He was a poor painter.
You do the math.

[ultraist]

61. So he wasn't proven abusive, he ran out of money and gave up?

[maveric]

68. He got swallowed by the machine. It was emotiionally/finacially draining.

So, because he couldnt maintain then he should shut the fuck up leave it alone?
Is that what you are saying?

[ultraist]

89. Yes. That happens sometimes in divorce/custody cases too

Whoever has the most access to financial means, wins. Same for other types of case. So much for "fairness."

[maveric]

53. Just a couple years married. No abuse, they loved each other.

Parents always hated him and refused to repect her wishes.

[KayLaw]

40. I was a respiratory therapy technician

I cared for such patients and it was awful. One was a boy who was wearing a Walkman and crossing a railroad track when struck by lightening. His parents sound like the parents you're describing. Once they held a birthday party for him in his ICU bed. It was obscene and depressing. I've seen people in their eighties intubated and put on vents. . .why?

All the unit nurses and technicians said they wanted DNR tattooed on their chests because they know and don't want the hellish existence of these poor people.

[maveric]

58. I want DNR on my chest too. So do my co-workers.

We see this real and right up-front.
There is no way that I want to "exist" like that. No fucking way!

[agingdem]

46. Seventeen years ago...

my father had kidney surgery, hemorrhaged during the night, blood pressure dropped to almost nothing, and though there was an attempt to intubate him, he was too long without oxygen and essentially brain dead. Over the next week, EEGs were performed as well as stimuli tests, and it was determined that there was no brain activity to speak of. Now what? We (my mother, sister, and I) had to decide if he should be denied life support (what a ridiculous contradiction in terms!). After much agony the decision was made to take him off the respirator. In less than 24 hours his body joined his brain in death. Would I make the same decisions again...you bet I would. Now, my question to Bush, Frist, Delay, etc. is this...have you lost your collective minds?

[glitch]

50. Well if this doesn't get the living wills written I don't know what will

Pray God she doesn't have a conscious mind. Cruel and unusual to have a mind and be FORCED to listen to Rush Limbaugh all day.

Her parents sound like very selfish people. I bet they get a lot of mileage with their visits too.

Munchausen Syndrome anyone?

[Frances]

73. You are right

Terri is the perfect example of doing the best you can to protect yourself against this happening to you

I think most hospitals have a form you can fill out that states your wishes

As others have said, If you are Christian why would you be so reluctant to let God decide when you should go instead of man?

[maveric]

78. "Advance Directive"

[mondo joe]

109. But if congress can act against a legal guardian and the courts,

what makes you think Living Wills will be sacred?

[Rex]

65. You have to realize that you are not dealing with rational people.

Logic and reason are foreign concepts to RW fundies. They believe their daughter tells them things (apple or grape?) just like they believe God tells them things.

After all these years you would think God would say, "she ain't coming back". I wonder why they just can't come to the conclusion that if God didn't want her like that, then God wouldn't have let her be in a car accident.

[Princess Turandot]

100. Are the parents paying her healthcare bills themselves?

Or are our tax dollars doing it?

[Contrary1]

111. Thank God the poor woman is unaware of what is happening around her...

That would indeed be a living hell. And I am glad that Schiavo is also unaware of what is going on. The thought of a living, feeling, person living inside a shell of an unresponsive body seems worse to me than being brain dead or in a permanent vegetative state.

What in the world are these parents thinking?