I'm torn on this whole Schaivo issue....

[DoNotRefill]

First off, let me say that I wholeheartedly support the entire "death with dignity" movement. I think assisted suicide is fine, provided that there's a clear indication that it represents the wishes of the person to die. If somebody wants to die, I think they should be able to, period, on demand and without apology.

My problem with this case is that the will of the person in question isn't really known. The husband says she told him she didn't want the life support, but the husband has a major credibility issue because of his conduct and situation. There's no definitive evidence either way, and her parents seem to think that she didn't want to be disconnected.

I also have a bit of the problem with how she is going to die. It seems that death by dehydration would be a particularly brutal way to go out. It'd be far more humane to simply give her a lethal dose of opiates, so that there would be no doubt about her not suffering.

[XanaDUer]

1. Bingo.

I'm with you on this one.

[Kahutec]

93. I agree!

It is a shame she has to die this way! I wish they could let her go peacfully and swiftly. Things are are screwed up in this one! The husband seems to want an end at all costs. This is not a diginfied way to go! I put my best friend to death with no pain and he was a labrador!

[Eric J in MN]

2. How many people would want to live for years

in a persistent vegetative state?

I sure wouldn't.

[HockeyMom]

10. On a chat before

One man actually called me a MURDERER for allowing my Mom to die. She had a Living Will, which spelled EVERYTHING out. I was her Health Proxy/Power of Attorney. Mom spend YEARS telling me she didn't want to be a vegetable, a SCIENCE EXPERIMENT. That man called me a murderer because NOBODY has the right to end a life he said, NOT EVEN THE PERSON themselves who is dying. Welcome to the Taliban, people.

And Congress is playing right into their hands.

[clydefrand]

15. Did you ask him if he was in favor of the death penalty and

if he approved of sending our men and women to die in an unjust war and that they were forced to take the lives of thousands of innocent people?

[DoNotRefill]

20. I personally wouldn't...

but I certainly couldn't speak for everybody else.

[Jesus Saves]

3. What is his credibility problem?

By the way I like your sig line quote.

[TheFarseer]

16. There is the whole, he has another family now thing

but how can you blame him? Is he supposed to spend every free moment for 15 years at his vegatable wife's bed side? That's no way to live.

[XanaDUer]

17. Here are a few things:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200503%5CCUL20050304b.html

and:

<snip>1. Why has he refused several recommendations for Terri's continued therapies?

In April of 1991, about a year after her collapse, therapists at Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center determined that Terri's condition was improving and recommended Michael have her transferred to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy so she could continue her recovery.

But by July, Michael had instead moved her to Sable Palms Nursing Home, with no such therapy.

Later, he refused to allow therapies that her parents believed might have allowed her to swallow, so she would not have to rely on a feeding tube.

2. Why did he not mention his wife's wishes during one of two malpractice cases?

In late 1992, one of Terri's doctors settled a malpractice suit out of court for $250,000. The following January, a Pinellas jury awarded about $1.4 to Terri and $600,000 to Michael in a suit filed because her gynecologist failed to ask about her medical history while treating her.

Michael had asked the jury to grant $20 million to pay for Terri's future medical and ...<snip>

http://www.inclusiondaily.com/archives/04/10/21/102304flschiavomichael.htm

PS-the "bitch" comment is quite interesting.

[Connie_Corleone]

24. I don't know about inclusiondaily.com but...

CNS is a right-wing "news" website.

There's two sides to every story.

[XanaDUer]

27. The latter is a disability rights' group.

And yes, there are two sides to every story. Actually, more than two sides in many cases.

That is why I have doubts about pulling the feeding tube.

[LisaL]

37. Yes, there is two sides to every story.

Maybe even more. I, for one, do not trust Mr. Schiavo one bit. Where was his concern for her wishes when he was asking for 20 million $ for her care?

[autorank]

4. She's brain dead. She has no will.

Somewhere around here there is a post showing a her brain scan. It is almost all fluid, very little brain matter. That means she's dead. She can't come back.

Don't be torn, just look at the evidence. This is such a vile sham pulled by the Right. For bill Frist to ask that this woman be brought to congress and to doubt the diagnosis is beyond offensive. It makes people think like there is really a question here.

All they've been doing is keeping her body functioning. She will never come back, she will never think, she is dead.

[LisaL]

38. Again, she is not brain dead. She can breathe on her own, which

means she is clearly not brain dead.

[femme.democratique]

49. Wrong.

....brain activity (ie breathing, heart beating, digestion) and actually having a functional complex thought/emotion system that differentiates us from other animals and makes us human. She is brain dead in the context of being able to lead a normal human life. Her brain stem (center of primitive brain function) is responsible for the the activity people are seeing. Her cerebral cortex (center of advanced function) is null.

Im curious - your position here seems to indicate that you'd like to stay a vegetable were you (or your family) were faced with similar circumstances, being able to breathe but not being able to think, talk, laugh and having people clean up your shit and take care of your bedsores? Even though you will never be able to be really alive again?

I guess people like Bill Frist can always make money off of you....

[LisaL]

53. Do read the definition of brain death before saying I am wrong.

Brain death is the cessation and irreversibility of all brain function, including brain stem.

http://www.medstudents.com.br/neuro/neuro5.htm
Clearly, Terri is not brain dead per definition.
:mad:

[femme.democratique]

57. Semantics, lizzy, semantics...

She's brain dead, shall I say it again? She's a useless shell that will never function as a human again.

Still angry? Thanks for the Brazilian med student link...

[LisaL]

59. Well, you obviously refuse to educate yourself.

She is not brain dead, and just because you repeat it, it's not going to make it so. As for being a useless shell, there are many people with perfectly functioning brains that are useless as well.
Nobody is starving them.

[femme.democratique]

87. Well, as far as educating myself, you're wrong - context is important liz

Take a look at this map. The only functioning part of her (duh) brain is the little yellow thingy there called the Brain Stem, which is connected to the spine.





Now, lizzy, I want you to read the following analysis of function in both the Cerebral Cortex and Brain Stem. The Brain Stem is the "reflexive involuntary control" function where the Cerebral Cortex is the "logic processor, emotion, memory, personality, spirituality, voluntary control" center.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfunction.html
http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

So, you understand, the "brain" as most people consider it in this context of humans is not the brain stem, but the cerebral cortex. The cerebral cortex is a holistic engine upon itself, the brain stem is only a control for other organ functions. Though they are medically considered part of the same organ, what her family is seeing is simply evidence of a remaining control function. Her brain (cerebral cortex) is what makes her unique and human, and that is dead.

One last tidbit:

Anatomical Proportion by Volume(%)

Rat
---
Cerebral Cortex 31
Basal Ganglia 7
Diencephalon 6
Midbrain 4
Hindbrain 7
Cerebellum 10
Spinal Cord 35

Human
-----

Cerebral Cortex 77
Basal Ganglia 4
Diencephalon 4
Midbrain 1
Hindbrain 2
Cerebellum 10
Spinal Cord 2



Yep, she's brain dead!

[Quixote1818]

88. Not brain dead but no longer their

Here is a Doctors Opinion on Terri's brain scan,

In my profession (clinical neuroscientist that works in the field of Alzheimer's disease research), I have seen hundreds of neuroimaging scans of patients with significant atrophy and Schiavo's is among one of the worst that I have seen. Her ventricles are showing what is termed, "ex vacuo," changes...a finding common in hydrocephalic children, late-stage Alzheimer's patients, and severe brain damage.

What's most notable about her scan (i.e., axial plane image) is the COMPLETE loss of gyral ridges in the parietal and occipital lobes. In the picture this shows up as a smooth region on either side of the brain. I find this significant because it means that she has LOST ALL PHYSICAL MATTER known to control visual processing, long-term memory storage, complex visuospatial processing, and working memory. She still has some gyral structure (though severely affected and showing what is termed "knife blade" atrophy) in the frontal and superior temporal regions, suggesting their may be some rudamentary simple stimulus detection remaining but no capacity for comprehension of this stimuli. In effect, she probably only retains the brain/functional capacity of a lower organism with rudamentary stimulus detection skills (e.g., worms, flukes, etc.).

She is no longer human or alive, if one subscribes to the Descartian theory of consciousness/awareness as the defining characteristic of being human. From decades of neuroscience, the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE is clear that Schiavo DOES NOT have the necessary materials for consciousness or understanding of her surroundings. Period.

[ET Awful]

52. Nonsense.

I suggest you look up the definition of "brain dead."

Brain dead is a state of having no cognitive function. Your reflexive functions still work, you still breathe, your heart beats, etc., but your brain does not work.

Your brain is not needed for your lungs to operate. It's not needed for your heart to beat,etc.

[LisaL]

55. You obviously don't know definition of being brain dead.

"Brain death is the cessation and irreversibility of all brain function, including brain stem."
She has brain function, she breathes on her own. Her brain stem still works.
Being brain dead does not mean your "brain doesn't work".
:eyes:

[ET Awful]

62. Once again

BRAIN FUNCTION IS NOT NECESSARY FOR REFLEXIVE ACTIVITY TO CONTINUE.

You do NOT need brain fuction to breathe.

[Connie_Corleone]

5. There have been other people, including Terri's best friend,

who has testified that this was her wish. Ruling after ruling states that this is her wish.

I thought starvation was inhumane too, before.

I have heard from health professionals though that starvation/dehydration is actually a more humane way to die rather than giving her something to kill her.

Regardless of what we might think of this case, congress has no business getting involved in it. The husband is the one to make the choice and courts have decided in his favor. Case closed.

[Dookus]

6. It seems

far less likely that she would WANT to be kept in a PVS than NOT kept that way. The vast majority of Americans do not want to be kept that way.

Also, why question his credibility? Because of the lies espoused by the Schiavo family and their right-wing backers? Their accusations are lies. They are liars. Why believe them?

[DoNotRefill]

26. I haven't followed this too closely....

but having a general grasp of human nature, I can't say that I'd be comfortable with somebody who had already started another family making life or death decisions over a spouse who would need to be divorced before he could remarry.

If you were getting a divorce, would you want your divorcing spouse to be able to withdraw the things you needed to live?

I don't know much about the husband, but just on general principles I'd be wary of spouses being able to do things like that. It would seem to me to be a conflict of interests.

[Dookus]

31. then

EVERY spouse has a conflict of interest in deciding these cases. EVERY spouse stands to inherit any property or life insurance in such a case. Do you believe that spouses should not be able to make these decisions in any case?

If Michael Schiavo wanted only to marry his girlfriend, he could've divorced Terri years ago. He didn't. There is NO reason to believe he's acting out of anything other than Terri's best interests. He's turned down plenty of money to give up this fight. He stands to gain not a penny from her death.

Right wing lies, all of them.

[Jon8503]

100. Who are we to judge? Also, if the far right had allowed her to die

as she and her husband had wished, she would have died several years ago. He has a right to get on with his life and I think he knows Terri's wishes better than you and I or the government.

[Mr_Spock]

7. I feel for the parents too - if they can't let go - maybe the husband

should let them have custody. I guess they're following the law in this instance, but if it were my kid - I'd resent having control of my daughters life taken away from me - even if she is hopeless? :shrug:

[Connie_Corleone]

12. I feel for them too, but...

They need to really ask themselves, "Is this how my daughter wants to live. Or are we putting our own need to keep her alive over her needs?"

[DoNotRefill]

28. that cuts both ways....

Is the husband saying "let her die" because that's what she wanted, or because it's what's best for him?

[LisaL]

47. Well, clearly, he can't get married again while she is still alive.

I wonder how his "fiancee" feels about that?

[Connie_Corleone]

50. Why didn't he accept the $10 million he was offered then?

He could've divorced her years ago and let her parents take care of her if he wanted to.

He didn't, and he turned down the $1 million and $10 million offered to him to let her parents take care of her. To me, that just doesn't sound like someone who wants to let her die and move on already. He says that he is honoring her wishes and, so far, I have no reason to doubt it based on the rulings in his favor.

[LisaL]

58. How can he accept the money?

After he said that he is just honoring her wishes, no matter what.

[sonicx]

60. if he's after money, why would he even say that?

[LisaL]

78. So, what, you think he would walk into court and say

that Terri's feeding tube should be removed because he is after money?
LOL.

[sonicx]

89. If he was after money, he would not have tried at first...

to rehabilitate her (for 8 years), would he?

[Jon8503]

102. Why can't you believe he is respecting her wishes instead of

believing what you want to believe.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. The parents lost control their daughter's life the day she got

married. It's part of the ceremony - "Who gives this woman..." It may be archaic, sexist shit, but I have a funny feeling that her parents went the whole route with it and believed it at the time.

My heart breaks for the mother, but what the woman needs is therapy. What is wrong with the woman that she is incapable of accepting the physical, scientific reality of her daughter's condition?

[Mr_Spock]

33. That's why I wondered if they were just upset at the lack of control

Do ya think they would let her go if they had been in control all of this time? Is it really about the daughter any more? :shrug:

[Jon8503]

103. Yes, very good point. I was at a wedding last night. The father gives

the daughter away. There is no proof or any evidence that this was nothing but a good marriage and he has and is doing everything in his power for her best welfare and respecting her wishes.

[spanone]

8. She will have morphine or whatever Tom DeLay prescribes for her.

Actually many cancer patients die in this very same fashion. My mother just quit eating when she decided to die. If the republicans had their way, she would still be alive on life supports.

[Jon8503]

9. Good Informatiion On Terry Schiavo Case, Includes links to the

Court rulings, great FAQ addressing the issues and arguments that have been raised. Very well done and is not biased, just facts.

Appears the judge and husband are now getting death threats from some far right and religious groups:

(Link via Majikthise.)http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[cry baby]

65. death threats, that's rich...they want Terri to stay alive while they kill

the hubby and the judge!?!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. People die this death everyday. My dad did.

I, too, am torn on this but this site gave me a better perspective. The write strives to be non-biased:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[XanaDUer]

44. Here is where I wish the Progressives would skewer the

Right on its berzerko stance on "Life":

In the past, hospitals were required to keep patients alive no matter what, unless there was a written document from that person, to the contrary. Hearsay, like, "Bob told me he would want to die" was not enough, which makes sense to err on the side of keeping the person alive.

Hospitals and the state did not want to bear the cost of keeping these poor people alive. So, good old conservatives, who don't really believe in a "culture of life" (especially if it's a poor person), started loosening up the rules as to what would be allowable evidence of the person's wishes.

This suited conservatives since it alleviated the hospitals' expenses by leaving the decision in the hands of the doctors as long as there was anecdotal evidence as to the person's wishes.

I believe this was kept murky, so to allay the government's responisibility to pick up the tab at a certain point. As usual with conservatives, they keep the principal alive, while keeping the monetary responsibilty vague. Thus, they can blither on about the "culture of life" without really touching on the cost of the culture of life.

So we should be telling republicans,"Okay-you believe in the culture of life-why is there is no National Health Care?"

"Why are you cutting Medicaid budgets?"

"Why are you dismantling the safety net in the US, which is not that great to begin with?"

Put them on the defensive about the right to life movement. As usual, they make the Left look like heartless beasts when the very thing that caused this type of situation was their attempts to protect financial liability.

I will check you the link you provided. Thanks!

[dogman]

13. What about the husband's credibility?

This has been through courtroom after courtroom. His credibility has been determined by judges who have reviewed the case as valid. Do you really believe the husband and judges are in a conspiracy to kill her for the fun of it? You are correct that a lethal dose would make sense but that is the whole point of this battle. The RW zealots want to impose their so called morality on the rest of us. This is merely a RW call to arms just as the gay marriage issue before the election. They are activating their base because they are in a weak position politically and need a distraction from their true anti-Christian behavior.

[regnaD kciN]

45. Precisely...

The RW zealots want to impose their so called morality on the rest of us.

Figure it out. If they can get the public to fully accept the notion that a brain-dead individual must be kept alive indefinitely, even with no chance of recovery, how hard will it be to argue from that principle that an embryo must likewise be legally protected? After all, in the case of an embryo, the immense likelihood is that, given time, said organism will develop full brain activity, and go on to live a fully human life. If we must protect Terry Schiavo, the argument will go, don't we have a responsibility to protect the unborn?

[Cleita]

You seem to have a misunderstanding about death by dehydration.

As a dying person's bodily functions start shutting down, it's actually more humane not to stress the organs with trying to process the fuel so to speak. Painkillers are administered along with the procedure to ease any discomfort. Properly done, there is no distress or pain.

I sat up with my stepdaughter when her mother died. She was a victim of Alzheimers and in its last stages. Most of her brain function was gone and she had forgotten how to swallow, so we couldn't administer food or water orally anyway. Putting her on tubes would have only prolonged what was inevitable. Instead she was given morphine to ease any discomfort she may had been feeling and died peacefully.

[SmokingJacket]

18. Yes... a lot of very elderly people die this way. It's natural.

I worked in a nursing home, and one of the signs that a person was getting close to dying was that they'd stop eating. Even if they ate, they'd hide the food in their cheeks and not swallow it. It's the body's way of saying, Enough already.

[Cleita]

21. True, my husband had stopped eating for a short while although he

was still able to walk around. He was mostly taking liquids and I thought maybe he would snap out of it. I should have seen it as a sign that his body was getting ready to die.

[LisaL]

42. Well, using this logic-death by bullet is natural as well.

A lot of people die this way.

[Cleita]

61. You call that logic? LMAO.

Since a bullet is a missile that can penetrate a body and even kill it, there is no basis for your allegation. Allowing someone to die with dignity once their bodily functions start shutting down isn't a bullet by any means, unless a food tube is inserted into her. There really is no comparison.

What they are doing to Terri is no different than people who mummified the bodies of their ancestors to keep them alive instead of burying them. Did you know that they took them on parades and brought them food and wine, just like they were still alive?

This is what they are doing to Terri, a modern, technological version of mummification. People like you are scary, because I feel l will be ready to die five or ten years from now and I don't want my body kept fresh, like a flower in a vase of water, just because I still can breathe at a very primitive level.

[SmokingJacket]

14. My take is that I'd want my husband to make the decision for me...

if I couldn't.

I don't know if he's a great husband, or what, but part of getting married is taking on responsibility for the other person. I feel for her parents, but I think once you marry, the spouse gets that right.

Obviously, if she had left a living will, there'd be no problem.

[Quixote1818]

19. Please Read This! It will clear things up for you.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[UTUSN]

22. Don't Be Torn

As for the husband's credibility and conduct, the case has been reviewed a gajillion times and he has been under a microscope, and he has NOT been removed as Guardian.

As for there not being "definitive evidence either way" about what she wanted, the case has been reviewed a gajillion times and determinations by the courts about what SHE wanted have been made that many times.

As for HOW/dehydration: The lawyer for KEVORKIAN told a wingnut/fundie in a shouting/"debate" last night that it was THE WINGNUT/FUNDIES who FORCED this method on the system, when they criminalized assisted suicide.

As with "abortion"---it's NOT about advocating for abortion, it's about INDIVIDUALS making their choices within their consciences.

[killbotfactory]

30. Yep

The husband is credible, and has been through enough. He only decided to remove the feeding tube after it became clear there was no hope for recovery.

Her brain is gone, and people are nothing without their brain. Just empty shells. But to pro-lifers who believe life begins at conception, that doesn't seem to matter.

[CoffeeCat]

25. One thing that really strikes me...

...is that poor Terri Schiavo was suffering from bulimia for a long time. Her husband saw her engaging in bulimic behaviors and a friend testified in the court case that she knew Terri was throwing up after meals.

Terri's own heart condition, electrolyte imbalances and low potassium levels are consistent with someone who is suffering from prolonged bulimia. This is what caused her heart failure.

Her immediate family, who is so proactive now--didn't do anything about the bulimia when Terri was alive. And now, they deny that she had bulimia and would rather believe that Michael murdered her. Terri's sister, on Larry King Live, said that they had "evidence" that she was harmed, possibly strangled.

I think Terri's family is completely operating from a place of extreme denial and pain. This family is not behaving rationally. They are operating like a dysfunctional family. Eating disorders often grow out of dysfunctional families that are steeped in denial for years.

I believe Terri's immediate family will do anything and everything to deal with the reality: That they could have been the cause of her bulimia and that they did nothing to help her when she was alive. Now, their guilt and shame are driving this entire process. They'll ignore doctors' reports, countless court cases, testimony of her husband--and they'll even accuse her husband of murder. They're spreading propaganda like wildfire (Michael never got therapy for her, he's in it for the money), and they're attempting to demonstrate that Terri is sentient--when clearly she is gone.

This entire family was probably sick--years before Terri collapsed. Now, we're seeing that dysfunction in full technicolor. Furthermore, the situation is worsened, as our politicians hitch their wagon to Terri's star--in hopes of culling votes and pandering to the religious zealots in their voting base.

This entire debacle showcases the worst of society.

It's just so sad and so awful.

[ultraist]

39. It was her husband's duty to intervene with her bulimia, not mommy's

;)

Terri did have a guardian ad litem for a period of time who was a nuetral advocate for her. They terminated that when they determined that her legal guardian was fit to make her medical decisions.

[LisaL]

40. You accuse her family of not doing anything about her bulimia.

What about her husband? If he knew about her bulimic behavior, why didn't he do anything? He was the one living with her, who would know better?

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. My ex was bulimic. It's much like any addiction, and if she didn't

want to confront it, and tried to hide it from him, there wasn't much he could do.

[LisaL]

46. Well, clearly, he could have done more than her mother or

father. He was living with her, and apparently knew of the bulimic behaviors.

[CoffeeCat]

51. I think they're both culpable...

...but the parents are the one who seem to be operating from a completely irrational viewpoint.

I think her husband has stood strong, to honor her wishes. I think he is attempting to do the right thing--despite the parents who seem to have come unglued, to the point where they are not thinking lovingly and compassionately. They are attempting to reconcile their own guilt and shame--by keeping their daughter alive.

I do agree--that her husband is just as--if not more--responsible for acknowledging her bulimia and helping her to face the problem and get help.

In his own way--he seems to be trying to do the right thing now.

[LisaL]

56. The parents didn't know she had bulimia.

To this day, I don't think they even believe it. On the other hand, if Michael knew she had bulimic behaviors, why didn't he do anything about it? The loving devoted husband that I am sure he was?

[mondo joe]

70. Her parents didn't know a lot about her. More reason to not believe

anything they say about her desires.

[LisaL]

76. But her husband was living with her, knew about her

bulimic behavior, but didn't know she had bulimia? And you trust him to know what her wishes are?

[mondo joe]

80. She had reason to hide bulimia. No reason to hide her wishes on

this matter.

And I trust Terri to choose her legal guardian. Why don't you?

[sonicx]

92. based on personal exprerence, i've seen people in families show...

tendancies toward destructive behavior (suicide) that the family knew about, but the person still ended up attempting.

[mondo joe]

72. Her bulimia began before her marriage.

And most likely is an outcome of issues in her family of origin.

[LisaL]

85. She was obese. Maybe if society didn't put unreasonable

standards on women, so many young women would not have eating disorders.

[mondo joe]

90. Maybe if her parents respected her as an autonomous individual

she wouldn't have developed an eating disorder which is all about control.

[Politicub]

104. Your post echos much of my opinion about the bulimia

Seeing the effects of prolonged bulimia in my own family, where my seemingly together and young cousin attempted suicide after years of bulimia. Her bulimia had a genesis that she has only recently been able to confront. It makes me so angry and sad.

Bulimia destroys the fabric of the body and the soul. Plus, it is often a reaction to something that happened in the family or by parents who are extremely controlling. I'm not insinuating Terri was abused, but I do believe her parents have severe control issues.

Terri's family's dysfunction is clearly on display now, and the right wings deconstruction machine is working overtime to varnish the parents with a coat of virtue.

This case has been heard again and again by the courts. In this postmodern age, the opinion of our legal system is completely disregarded if it doesn't dovetail with the right wing's wet dreams of complete citizen control.

[classof56]

29. I just googled Cerebral Cortex

Briefly, it is the part of the brain that (according to the website) determines intelligence and personality, the interpretation of sensory impulses, motor function, planning and organization and touch sensation. It is my understanding that Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex is destroyed. Another poster gives a better description of what has happened to her, based on MRIs. I have signed the necessary paperwork directing that I do not want to be kept alive should something similar happen to me, but even if I had not, I would trust my spouse to do the right thing and let me go. And I would hope like hell he wouldn't have to wait 15 years to do it. I would do the same for him. When the part of you that governs who and what you are is gone, the cerebral cortex, the body should be allowed to follow. Just my thoughts...

Tired Old Cynic

[tammywammy]

32. My two cents on something

I wonder if the reason that Terri never said anything to her parents about not wanting life support is that she knew how they felt about it. That she knew that there would be an argument and wanted to avoid an argument.

To me the fact that her parents didn't know that she was seeing a doctor about fertility treatments speaks volumes. If she didn't even tell them about the fertility treatments it seems very reasonable that she wouldn't have spoken to them about life support.

[killbotfactory]

34. Your spouse knows more about you than your parents

My wifes mother still thinks she likes tweety bird, for god sakes.

[tammywammy]

41. And I totally agree with that

There are a lot of things that a person will talk to with their significant other than their parents.

Given that, it doesn't jive with me that her parents know her better than her spouse. I understand that they've known her longer, and watched her grow up. On the other hand, she was married for 5 years (from 20-25). Most people change a lot during those 5 years. People start really growing into who they'll be the rest of their lives, much different than 1-18.

I just really see how she could have spoken about life support to her husband and best friend and not talked to her parents about it.

[LisaL]

77. Her friend testified Terri was opposed to removing of life support.

[mondo joe]

79. Which friend?

[Quixote1818]

82. The court found otherwise. Please get the facts

Why did Terri’s husband get to make the decision about whether she should live or die?

Michael Schiavo did not make the decision to discontinue life-prolonging measures for Terri.

As Terri's husband, Michael has been her guardian and her surrogate decision-maker. By 1998, though -- eight years after the trauma that produced Terri's situation -- Michael and Terri's parents disagreed over the proper course for her.

Rather than make the decision himself, Michael followed a procedure permitted by Florida courts by which a surrogate such as Michael can petition a court, asking the court to act as the ward's surrogate and determine what the ward would decide to do. Michael did this, and based on statements Terri made to him and others, he took the position that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. The Schindlers took the position that Terri would continue life-prolonging measures. Under this procedure, the trial court becomes the surrogate decision-maker, and that is what happened in this case.

The trial court in this case held a trial on the dispute. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Afterwards, the trial court determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard -- the highest burden of proof used in civil cases -- the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures.

[Bryn]

35. At First I had mixed feelings Now I don't

when I realized that I would not want to live that way. I'd want to be let go, not hang around like "living dead". No life quality. After reading many posts, websites and her brain scan, etc. I decided that since most of her brain is gone she should be released from her "prison". I know that it's very difficult for parents to let go, but they should...like a butterfly

[the_spectator]

36. I'm about where you are on this

In the middle. What do I believe?
- Yes, the brain scan is pretty compelling - Terri is almost certainly, if not 100%, a vegetable now
- I understand her parent's desire to keep her alive, but I realize that they have been co-opted / let themselves be co-opted by anti-abortion activist types
- Let the Republicans get mixed up in this one, let the Democrats keep away from it

So I guess I lean towards letting her go in peace. BUT, I can't be smug like others who say things like, her husband is her guardian, he says she would want to die, that's the law, the courts have said so, etc. etc.-

Often, court proceedings are far removed from the reality of a particular situation. Often, evidence can't be presented for valid legal reasons that nevertheless would convince most people one way or another. And I've got to say it -- her husband is scum, IMHO. I don't doubt for a second that he never had Terri's interests at heart, only his own. He didn't take up with another woman 15 years after Terri's virtual death - he took up with another woman IMMEDIATELY. He's an overgrown neanderthal with a history of threatening behavior. I'll be interested to see if he gets his wish and Terri is cremated immediately so that no autopsy will be possible. I'm willing to believe that he was beating Terri, and this abuse may have been part of the reason she ended up the way she did. And I'm not a judge, or on a jury, so I think I have the right to believe whatever I want about that man.

Let her die in peace, but I understand the many reasons why for many people, it's hard to say that easily about THIS PARTICULAR woman in THIS PARTICULAR situtation.

[otohara]

48. Let It Go, It's None of Our Business

isn't this what they do over at freerepublic.com, meddle in everyone's personal business, trying to change everything that doesn't suit their agenda?

[Jon8503]

54. Otohara has hit it on the head. This is a very personal matter

that should be private between them & not the US Gov, State of FL or any of us. It is very unfortunate that the Religious Right has decided to make this a public issue. Now you have the Tom Delays involved. I think if these groups really cared about her well being they would leave them all alone.

Was it just a few months ago they were talking about the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. Maybe they should truly honor that, or was that their true agenda.

[OldHistoryBuff]

63. Me too

I have hesitated to post concerning my feelings on Terri since I am a new user.

On the terri.org site there are statements made by some of her caretakers. I believe they are all made by CNA's and I believe the statements they have made concerning Terri and her alertness.

Maybe in the last couple of years she has gone downhill but at one time she could take food by mouth and did express when she was in pain and used some garbled speech to try to communicate.

With some good therapy she should not even need the use of the feeding tube.

[Lars39]

69. No, therapy would not help an iota; she has no cerebral cortex.

Read at www.abstractappeal.com

terri.org is a wingnut fundy site.

[OldHistoryBuff]

81. I don't care what side the info comes from

If what caretakers said are true they need to be checked out.

On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael.

I would like to know why Michael refused for Terri to take food and liquids by mouth.

[mondo joe]

84. You might consider reviewing the case to understand it better

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[Lars39]

86. She had swallow tests to determine her ability.

It was determined that she couldn't and that to feed her orally would result in aspiration.

[Jon8503]

96. Exactly, she cannot feed herself at all.

[Jon8503]

95. The information did not come from any one side, it came from medical

professional after medical professional including those supplied by the court system. What you are saying is you want to believe only that from the right.

[Jon8503]

75. I don't understand where these people get the idea that therapy

is going to help her. There has been doctor after doctor not including the court appointed doctors that have visited her stating she is brain dead and there is no possiblity of her coming back.

There are the doctors of the right that have stated thru observing her by video she is responsive. Also, as of today tried to break in and take her food.

[Pushed To The Left]

64. I'm in the same boat

It's a shame the way this whole thing has been politicized. Both her husband and her parents seem to want to do what they think is best for her. They just don't agree on what that is, or what she would want. I agree that ending her life by just removing the feeding tube and letting her body starve seems a bit harsh.

[OldHistoryBuff]

67. Same here

I feel Michael should allow the parents to bring Terri home and care for her. Let them get the therapy she needs. I think it is cruel to starve her to death. She isn't the same as a terminal patient that is ready to stop eating and die.

[Lars39]

73. Withdrawing nurishment and water is all that the state of FL

will allow. Her condition IS terminal, because withdrawal of her feeding tube will result in her death. Terri would not benefit one iota from having any more therapy.

[sonicx]

71. it's not harsh, doctors have said she won't feel pain after the removal.

[mondo joe]

74. Removal of feeding tube is not violent or painful.

This happens every day in hospice settings across the country.

It is a slowe but peaceful process, and morphine is administered as a precaution.

[Jon8503]

97. It isnot harsh, this is a proven fact. Also, it is not what you want or

what I want. It should be what Terri and her husband wants.

Remember the "sanctity" of marriage we have all heard about. Why don't we respect that.

[sonicx]

66. everyone should read this site...

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

the Q&A section in particular.

[mondo joe]

68. 1. There are more witnesses than her husband; 2. His conduct has

been exemplary.

Review the findings of the court appointed Guardian Ad Litum - he has taken extraordinarily good care of Terri.

[Jon8503]

98. The Sanctity Of Marriage Should Prevail

I am sorry DUers, I have to agree with those Right Wingers that the "sanctity" of marriage should prevail. Her husband should respect her wishes as requested and the government and all others should butt out. Don't all of you believe in the Right Wing philosophy of less government interference in the personal lives of others. Don't you agree with the Right Wingers on State Rights. The State of Florida has ruled in this case several times over.

sanc·ti·ty (săngk'tĭ-tē)
n., pl. -ties.
Holiness of life or disposition; saintliness.
The quality or condition of being considered sacred; inviolability.
Something considered sacred.

[Ivan Sputnik]

83. Isn't this REALLY about abortion?

And how we define "human life"? Just asking.

[Guaranteed]

91. They should just OD her on morphine.

If you're going to do this, you may as well do it right.

[Trajan]

94. I am troubled by this as well ....

So you arent alone here .... as you can see ...

This is a really tough issue: some see only hard, legal precedent, and declare the husband as the only rightful arbiter of Terri's fate .... Others, like myself, agree that the legal precedent exists and is valid, but that IF her parents would assume the responsibilities of guardianship based on their parental love for Terri, then Michael should allow them to assume guardianship .....

One further thought: IF one presumes that She is 'already dead', then why the need to make her fully and completely dead ? ... I mean ... isnt "Terri" already gone ? .... Isnt she already dead ? ... This is obviously a verbal dispute caused by the rhetoric of those who claim 'she is already dead', confuting the difference between 'brain dead' and 'dead' .... she is NOT 'already dead', she is 'clinically brain dead' .... a difference big or small, depending on your opinion ...

Anyways: I have been leaning towards agreement with the husband since I posted a similar thread last night .... If there is substantial support that she expressed her desire to NOT have her life extended in this kind of case (and there is), then the tube should be pulled out, no matter how hard it seems, no matter what anyone 'feels' (including myself) ....

LOTS of things happen in this world that I dont like, but are valid and correct ..... This is one of those cases ....

It hurts me ..... but it is right ....

[markus]

99. What conduct of her husbance is suspect?

What does he have to gain from fighting this through except to see his wife's wishes honored? Nothing.

[Jon8503]

101. For Your Reading - A Typical Right Wing Msg On The Yahoo Board

on the Terri Schiavo case. I have to say, this guy is not too bright.

"Re: SAVE TERRI PULL ALL LIBERAL PLUGS
by: scottmops (32/M) 03/18/05 10:40 am
Msg: 1604 of 1605

Terri is brain dead yet smarter than any liberal on the planet. Liberals are a disease"


PERFECTLY SAID


Posted as a reply to: Msg 1597 by honda_civic_hybrid11

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