Would the world have been better off without America?

[Jesus Saves]

I don't think so.

I see faults, but I see the virtues too.

[Stop_the_War]

1. Yes, the world would've been better off.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

8. that posters age is relevant, how?

[Jesus Saves]

11. life experience

[KG]

16. and his life experience is relevant, how?

[Jesus Saves]

23. huh?

are you for real?

[KG]

28. more real than you, even

[Stop_the_War]

31. what is your problem?

I simply gave my opinion of your question and you start attacking me. How old are you? What does MY age matter in this question?

But I will elaborate, yes the world would've been better off. Admit it, America has never been a "shining beacon of freedom blah blah". From the moment the colonists stepped on these shores, they murdered the Indians and stole their land. Further on, they enslaved millions of African-Americans. When America gained its independence, it only allowed rich white land-owning men to vote. After slavery was abolished in 1865, the government continued to oppress African-Americans. Even today, they have been denied the right to vote in many ways. Women weren't allowed to vote until the early 1900s.

America is not and was never "a beacon of freedom".

[Jesus Saves]

42. I disagree

but I'm glad you posted, thanks.

You answered questions others raised on another thread of mine.

[Warpy]

63. I think you need to read a little more history

You can't count America as a dead loss to the world without considering the inventors that fluorished in a system that had largely abolished class restrictions on education, the new foodstuffs, and the shocking idea that people could govern themselves without a series of hereditary divine right monarchs. You also have to consider what desperation the lower classes in Europe had experienced for thousands of years. You'd still be there had not America come into being.

Weigh this against the genocide against the natives already here and the long history of military adventurism, along with the plague that tobacco has brought to the world at large, and I think you'll come up with a very different equation.

Real life and history are both messy propositions, you see, which is something you find out as you get older and shabbier. Nothing in this world is either all good or all bad, and most things balance out in the end, one way or another.

To say any country is all bad or all good is childlike and simplistic reasoning.

[Stop_the_War]

70. I did not say it was "all bad"...

I just diagree with the notion that America is somehow a "beacon of freedom".

[ultraist]

56. EXCUSE ME?

Your CONDESCENDING remark about STW's age is NOT "Christian" like.

Righteousness and being judgmental isn't either.

[BurtWorm]

2. Without America, no. Emphatically.

Without Bush or the modern Republican party, yes. Emphatically.

[Robbien]

3. Greed would have just reared its ugly head somewhere else

South and Central America sure would have had a much better chance at making a go of things without all of our greedy mitts all over their resources for these last hundred years or so.

[KG]

5. i'm sure the indigenous populations wiped out by the genocide and

land grabs wish the white man had never found these shores.

[Stop_the_War]

6. Exactly n/t

[Jesus Saves]

14. The European countries would have done so anyway

[KG]

22. so, it that your justification for genocide and land theft?

[Jesus Saves]

26. I'm not justifying it

I'm saying that it would have happened even if the revolution hadn't occurred.

However, the revolution began something, an experiment if you will, that has been overall a force for good.

You know, Thomas Jefferson, and many of the other founders had a great deal of respect for the Native Americans.

[KG]

27. so much respect that they stole their lands and killed them!

[Jesus Saves]

32. Not Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson greatly admired them.

[KG]

39. i'm sure the admiration of jefferson was something the natives cherished

BTW if the founding fathers thought so highly of the natives, were they considered citizens and confered with the right to vote?

[Jesus Saves]

43. For their time, they were on the cutting edge of thought

You can criticize them now, but they were good people.

[KG]

46. that wasn't the question i posed.

and talk about cutting edge of thought, the founding fathers also allowed slavery and slave trade.

how cutting edge was that?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skip Intro]

25. ?

[ultraist]

60. Don't forget the Africans who were enslaved and mass murdered

[forgethell]

89. Right, then

they could have kept on eating each other. Aztec, Anasazi. You've heard of their dietary habits. Olmecs. Shall I go on?

War, and killing the defeated is not the exclusive invention of the evil white man. Those wonderful noble savages were called "savages for a reason.

Head-hunting and shrunken heads? The Jivaro. Slavery? All over the current area of Latin America. Religion, the big Bogey-man of so many on DU? They had it all over both continents.

The Mongols, the Huns, the Turks. To the best of my none of these peoples were "white". Yet they were pretty bad customers, nonetheless. Talk about "land grabs".

Get a clue.

[DenverDem]

7. It would have been a lot better off without what amerikkka has become.

But, really, the country was started with genocide of the Native Americans and it's economy was based on slavery. Not a great beginning, either.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

13. makes me horney, hunney

:hi:

[CatWoman]

15. LOL

RAISE THE COLORS!!!!!!!

:hi:

[KG]

19. i got the flag pole!

heh. :evilgrin:

[Stop_the_War]

20. LMAO

:P

[cornermouse]

10. No.

But we have to realize that we failed to live up to our potential.

[Burma Jones]

12. Nope

All the things that are thought of as evil in this forum would have been visited on the world by the Brits or the Spanish anyway.

We have done far more good than harm.

[Jesus Saves]

18. exactly

thanks for taking the question seriously.

I think your point is spot on.

[atreides1]

36. "We have done far more good than harm"

Then to be fair list, from the time of America's independence till the present, all the good that has been done.

Then make another list, with all the evil that America has committed, and then we can see if in reality whether America has done more good than harm.

[seabeyond]

17. i DONT see virtue NOW, i always have in the past

i do for the future. but i will not give on seeing virtue in the u.s. now. and i am good at finding it in all of us, i just dont think that is our intent as a people or government and if intent isnt there, not going to happen

u.s. has given tons to world. they are giving now in their greed and self absorbtion. it is helping a lot of other countries to see what they dont want to be, what they dont like and why they have to find their own voice and backbone to stand up to u.s.

and i feel it will give the same to the people in the u.s. once awakening happens and as stupid as bush is, gotta happen, i just have faith. i also think it may be a good thing we go thru this now for our younger generation. things were going awfully smooth and easy for us and made a apathetic teen/twenties generation. i think the next going thru teens wil be more demanding, higher expectation

[JDPriestly]

21. No.

The world is much better off with America. Read the American Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and other such historical documents including court opinions (even through the present) and you will be proud of how far we have come as a nation and what we represent at our core. After all, we are the nation that proved that Enlightenment Philosophy, the application of reason to human affairs and democracy in government, can work on a practical level.

The only problem with America is that too many of us do not take responsibility for our government, do not make our opinions known, do not contribute to the public discourse and do not participate in the political process. Our system gives us the power. We have only ourselves to blame if we don't take it, if we sit idly by while America makes colossal mistakes.

Think of it, we Americans abolished the idea that a nation needed royalty and kings to rule and govern. We abolished the idea that the first born (son) should inherit the father's rights and most of his goods. We are abolishing the idea that one race is inferior or superior to another.

America was instituted in order to be the leader with regard to human rights, social justice, rule by law, and government by a majority vote that respects and protects the rights of minorities. We can still lead in all those areas if we join together and work to take the country back to the values and dreams of the Founding Fathers. It's up to us. We are America.

[Jesus Saves]

49. Putting the principles of the Enlightenment into law

You are right. And that was a good thing. An incredibly important moment in human history as a matter of fact.

[Skip Intro]

24. America under bush is not the America

that does good

I'm sure the fires of America's greatness still burn, they're just clouded over right now by the vile pollution coming from the bush regime.

[moof]

29. definition of terms, please.

1. America
2. virtues
3. faults

Now name three " American virtues " and three " American Faults "

[uppityperson]

33. faults

San Andreas
Juan deFuca
Death Valley Carb

[Jesus Saves]

37. America = our country

Virtues: the Constitution (and pretty much everything in it) - there are more than three big virtues in that document.

Faults: well we all know those. There are many - but they are balanced by the good too.

[uppityperson]

47. please check out#30 for America=continent, USA=our country

America is the continent. USAnians are so lazy overall that they need to shorten it up, or else they are so self absorbed that they just ignore the other countries. USA is the country. America is the continent.

[Jesus Saves]

51. Well I meant our country

'America' is used in our country, and around the world, to mean the USA.

[uppityperson]

58. No-America is used around the world and in America to mean the continent

Just because it has become common for US citizens to refer to their country by co-opting the entire continent doesn't make it right. Canadians refer to America as the continent, so do Mexicans. France refers to the USA as Etats Unitis. Many US citizens refer to themselves as "Americans" and it is wrong.

[uppityperson]

30. America is a continent, includes USA,Canada,Mexico, Belize

USA is the country. People in the USA are United States citizens, or UnitedStatesians. People in Canada are Canadians (why are those 2 words pronounced differently?). People in Mexico are Mexicans. People in Belize are Belizians. We are all Americans but we are not America. Then there is South America, another America with lots of countries too.

Personally, I like the America being here, gives more land mass to a watery world.

[porphyrian]

34. No, but it probably could have done without Christianity as government.

Jesus would freak if he knew what was done in his name.

[pinto]

35. I am sure the world would be different without America,

"better off" seems a subjective assessment. Would the world be better off without Greenland? Sure it'd be different, but....you get my drift.

Thanks for your post.

[Jesus Saves]

38. America recognized individual rights

We haven't always lived up to them, but just that initial act of recognizing them, and then struggling with what that means, is overall a good thing IMO.

[tkmorris]

57. As you said yourself

The Europeans would have done that anyway.

It seems that whenever anyone in this thread tries to come up with some positive to credit America with they point to some right or freedom laid out in the Constitution. Now don't misunderstand, the Constitution is an historic and important document, but credit the writers for good ideas and leave it at that. The US' record of actually living up to the lofty ideals put forth in that document is spotty at best.

Let's stick to tangible results shall we? Let's list exactly what actual events have occured as a result of the US existence. There are some positive ones you know, there's naught to be afraid of. But in doing so I think you must admit that there are negatives we have directly caused as well.

It seems to me that this is what the "Why do you hate America?" crowd is loathe to do. They do not want any honest examination of our record of living up to our promise and to me that is a very telling thing. Unfortunately if we are unwilling or unable to be critical of ourselves than we likely face the same fate as anyone who refuses to face reality. Rome fell because of people like that. The United States will as well unless we, the true idealists who actually BELIEVE in the principles set forth at our founding, stand honest and true.

Edited for greater confusion.

[Jesus Saves]

87. I finally read your post

I think you're thoughtful about the issue. I agree that the flag suckers on the right are blind and obediant fools.

The list of things we've done that are good is long. I'll leave all the principles of the founding aside, which was an incredibly important moment in history.

1. We created workers' rights that didn't exist one hundred years ago

2. We created a middle class

3. Our society has become more fairer and more open over time

4. We've allowed the thriving of scientific pursuits, celebrated them in fact

5. Blues, jazz, rock and roll - all of which thrived due to our beliefs in freedom of speech

6. We helped defeat the evil of the Nazis

It's been a struggle, but our nation is one which allows the struggle in the first place, which is vitally important, and another great thing about America.

There's a lot more, and a few others have made great points in this thread about what is good about America.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. What Would Jesus Post?

[CatWoman]

41. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:hi:

[Jesus Saves]

44. I don't think he would post.

Honestly.

[CatWoman]

45. you were born "again"

sort of like "refried beans", no?

[Gabi Hayes]

55. Jesus Refrito?

Jesus needs a humor transplant, si, senorita?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Something we agree on. Now..Jesus is fine with me but some of his alleged

followers are a royal pain in the ass. Especially those that can't take criticism of horrible US policy then use some anonymous post on an internet bulletin board to make some case that liberals are "America Bashers."

The vast majority of people who post on this site are Americans so you too are an America basher by bashing us.

Furthermore, Mr Christ, our number one export and about the only fucking thing we manufacture here at home without outsourcing the bulk of it is DEATH AND WEAPONS OF DEATH.

That bloodlust happens to be propping up our economy right now.

Sooooo...can you point the sanctimony in the direction it might best manifest Jesus intentions?

[Jesus Saves]

59. I say go back to the founding principles

That's where America's greatness lies.

And when I say founding principles, I include separation of church and state.

The worst thing that ever happened to the progressive movement is our alientation from our own country and its founding. We won't touch it. If we went back and learned some of it, and started to use it, we would smash the right wing like an empty cup.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Sorry but your post makes no sense to me

Progressives are not the ones bastardizing the letters of the founding fathers.

[Jesus Saves]

64. That's to bad

Cuz I rarely see a progressive effectively use the words and principles of our founding to justify a policy or position.

I've read some articles here and there, seen some scattered attempts, but that's about it.

We've almost wholly ceded the ground of original intent to the right wing.

[Karenina]

71. You be employed?

How much they pay???

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. I think you're seeing what you want to see

There's been many an article in The American Prospect and even in posts here on DU taking the fundamental principles of the founders and extrapolating them out on our positions.

No one has ceded anything to the right and for that matter, the right takes PORTIONS of positions to back up their positions.

[uppityperson]

77. Dems ceded seperation of church and state to repubs? hahahahaha

bye

[Jesus Saves]

78. We don't argue it

by effectively using original intent.

We don't use even a tenth of the ammunition available to us on this point.

[uppityperson]

83. We don't argue that the church and state should be seperate????

WTF does "by effectively using original intent" mean?

[Jesus Saves]

90. Original intent is what the right wing so effectively uses

They say we were founded as a 'Christian nation', etc.

Well thanks to them I don't think Thomas Jefferson could even get elected president today.


History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

------------------------------------------------------------------------



What is it men cannot be made to believe!

-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

------------------------------------------------------------------------



I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

------------------------------------------------------------------------



I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

------------------------------------------------------------------------



They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

------------------------------------------------------------------------


The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

------------------------------------------------------------------------



In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

------------------------------------------------------------------------



If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

------------------------------------------------------------------------



You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

------------------------------------------------------------------------



As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

------------------------------------------------------------------------



To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.
------------------------------------------------------------------------



I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

------------------------------------------------------------------------



And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it , and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

------------------------------------------------------------------------



All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)

------------------------------------------------------------------------"

[uppityperson]

65. The founding principle of the pilgrims was freedom to worship

Which founding are you talking about? We won't touch what? What is "it"?

Pilgrims weren't able to have the freedom to worship as they wished so came to North America to be able to freely worship and govern more as their religion was interpreted to say. Other founding principles of USA was slavery was ok, even though all men were created equal. And women were not men and not equal.

Yes, seperation of church and state has become very blurred and needs to be changed. But I am glad to be alienated from some of the USA founding principles as I like to be bale to vote and have property.

[Jesus Saves]

67. For starters

go back and read Thomas Jefferson.

[uppityperson]

69. My question you replied to is what do you mean by #59 copied below

#59:The worst thing that ever happened to the progressive movement is our alientation from our own country and its founding. We won't touch it. If we went back and learned some of it, and started to use it, we would smash the right wing like an empty cup.


Again, What is "it" What alientation are you talking about.

[Jesus Saves]

75. "It"

I mean going back and redefining what it means to be American using the words of the founders themselves. I think the definition has drifted a bit to far from the original intent of those people.

Too many progressives are in love with the new languages, the ivory tower languages. Like I said we've ceded this ground almost wholly to the right wing. We've lost our folk music. We've lost our Mark Twain.

[uppityperson]

81. If we go back and learn the words of the Constitution writers?

You say that repubs know the constitutional language and use it well and the reason they are in power is because of this, so if the dems want to regain power they need to use the constitutional language?

The problem is that we use current language and words and this is why we cannot smash the right wing? And, according to your post #59, this includes seperation of church and state, so the reason the repubs are in power is because they use the words that they want seperation of church and state?

Edited to add:
Kerry used "the ivory tower languages" and so lost to Mr.bush who used the language of the founders? right

[Jesus Saves]

82. I'm saying they're telling a more effective story of what it means

to be an American. A vital part of that is connecting with our past and especially our founding.

We have to learn how to do it better. We have to get our folk music back. We have to get our Mark Twain back.

[uppityperson]

84. Repubs lie to US citizens, using fear and propaganda

this is how they have power. We have mighty fine speakers. They have Mr.bush. The problem is not that we do not have folk music. They problem is that lies and fear and propaganda work.

[Skip Intro]

48. John Lennon may have your answer

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too

Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

[Jesus Saves]

53. It's a great song

I'm a big fan.

But we live in a world where there are countries. And that prompted my question.

[Skip Intro]

88. Well we live in a world where there is an America too

its all "if"

[Behind the Aegis]

50. Why?

Why ask such a subjective question as this? There are many parts to this country. My question is: would the world have been better off without religion?

[Gabi Hayes]

62. here's why....from the header of another Jesus thread

''I see a few real anti-American sentiments occasionally on this board. Not just anti-government, but just anti-everything about America. ''

lookin' a whole lot like flame bait to me; not wasting any more time reading this trash

you be the judge, but could it be any more obvious?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3274041&mesg_id=3274041

[ultraist]

66. Why?

The same reason they posted, "America Bashers need to read this" thread.

[supernova]

68. Name one DUer who has said this

:eyes:

You're being as transparent as a new window pane.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

73. Rampant anti-Americanism is unbecoming...

If people ever get in a huff and say "How dare anybody call leftists unpatriotic!", I'll have to point out this thread.

This is quintessential "Blame America First". The idea that the world would be better off without its first example of a strong Democratic Republic is so ludicrous, it hardly merits discussion.

Go read some history people. Nazi Germany was hardly worse than your average 17th century European/Asian/African/Arabian/Indian kingdom. At the time, genocide and slavery was considered just a normal part of war. And practices such as legalized piracy and mass murder - both duels and feuds - were commonplace during "peace".

The idealism of this country's founders led the world out of all that. And even if we occasionally fail to maintain our own standards, at least we still have them.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Sufi Marmot]

74. These threads are always silly...

It's ridiculous to argue whether "the world" is better off or not, as "the world" is just a collective noun for a large number of individual people. Since its founding, many people were/are better off for the actions of both the American government and individual Americian citizens, other persons were/are not. You can make up a long list for either side of the argument. Plus, you can't ever predict history and know for sure whether more people would have suffered in the absence of America than from its presence... :shrug:


-SM

[AG78]

76. What an odd question

The number of factors involved in such a question make it almost impossible to answer.

It wasn't the first democracy.

The thought of freedom, whatever freedom is, didn't start here. The fight for freedom didn't start here.

Would America be America if the Louisiana Purchase never existed?

Would there be an America had the Roman Empire not existed when it did? If it had been 500 years later that Rome conquered the known world, what would've happened to America?

Would the world have been better off without the Egyptians? Or the Vikings? All those Chinese dynasties? The British Empire?

Would the world have been better off had humans not learned to use tools?

Would the world have been better off had rabbits learned to walk upright? Would they even be rabbits?

[TheOriginalAmerican]

79. I agree.

I would also like to add that if America wasn't the evil superpower, another country would be.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

85. Is Jesus the easter bunny?

or the female wedded partner of a former military worker?

[Bunny]

86. **snarf**

Good one!

[Moderator]

91. Locking

This thread is not providing a productive discussion