Wics. Gunman Said Angry About Losing Job

[NNN0LHI]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=576996

BROOKFIELD, Wis. Mar 13, 2005 — In a minute, a quiet church service at a suburban Milwaukee hotel turned into bloodbath.

Terry Ratzmann, a buttoned-down churchgoer known for sharing his homegrown vegetables with his neighbors, walked into the room and fired 22 rounds from a 9mm handgun. snip

Although he left no suicide note and gave no explanation for the killings, investigators said Ratzmann was on the verge of losing his job and was upset over a sermon he heard two weeks ago.

It was unclear what specifically upset him, but Ratzmann was a member of the Living Church of God, a denomination whose leader recently prophesied that end times are near.

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[StClone]

1. Was he a girlie man about losing his job?

Arnie say it wasn't so.

[Warpy]

3. the sermon in question was scrubbed from the church's website

along with all their other sermons back to November 2004.

That church was an Apocalyptic fundy job, all gleefully contemplating nonsense like the fictional Rapture and the hideously painful deaths of everyone outside the congregation.

Chances are the guy would have stayed obscure if they hadn't found him.

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Got a link for the church's website?

We can probably find some of the sermons in the Wayback Machine.

[Hoping4Change]

5. Perhaps this will help.

http://www.livingcog.org/default.htm

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. Here's some archive links

for anyone brave enough to sift through this crap. Have fun.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.livingcog.org/default.htm

[LittleClarkie]

7. How do you know he didn't find them

why are you making that assumption.

Why assume it was the church that made the guy loony tunes and that he wasn't loony tunes to begin with.

I come at this as a D&D player, by the way. I get into the argument alot that it wasn't the game that made somebody crack if they were already cracked. Same difference as far as I'm concerned. If you have trouble filtering reality in the first place, churches like this maybe aren't for you. But I really, really doubt he was completely alright before he joined the church and they made him batty.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

11. You can't say it because it's hate speech and only your opinion

I still maintain it is at least possible that it's a chicken or egg deal here. He was nuts first, before he joined whatever church, or he joined the church first and then went nuts.

We still only have half the information. I'm not drawing conclusions without facts. We're still in short supply of those. But don't worry. This is big news in these parts. We'll be in wall to wall coverage for a week.

By the way, Bill Maher Jr., I resent your assumption about religion. And I will NOT concede faith to the Republicans.

Are you an atheist? I never quite understood that stance. Agnostic, ie the big shrug, I can understand. But to say you know without doubts what's out there and what isn't never made much sense to me.

[hue]

12. One has to have just as much faith to say there is no God as

to say there IS a God. Either way its an act of faith/believing in something one cannot prove.

[LittleClarkie]

14. There are those who will play logic games and say

it isn't their burden to prove there is no God, but the person who is making the assertion that there is a God.

I still have more empathy for the "big shrug." It seems more honest to me.

All I know is that hate speech is just as ugly no matter which direction it's coming from.

AND we still don't know much about this case. For those who have an issue with religion to be jumping in and having a gay ol' time cracking wise about 8 people dead and four wounded because it was a CHURCH function are just as ugly as those who would send liberals over to be human shields in Iraq.

Some of those killed and wounded were children. One was 10 I believe, and another 15, if I remember correctly. I find no pleasure in deaths in Iraq, and even less when they're happening a fucking mile away from where I live.

So those who think this is funny can kiss my ass.

[leftofthedial]

18. your assertion is absurd on its face

believe what you want

[leftofthedial]

15. what makes you think he was "nuts" at all?

he was pissed off.

so much for not drawing conclusions.

[LittleClarkie]

16. I've been pissed off

and not killed 8 people. I think that there is at least enough evidence to say he went nuts.

Killing a bunch of folk, regardless of the reason, doesn't seem terribly sane to me.

Or are we cutting him slack because after all, he only killed a bunch of fundies who must have been nuts themselves, considering that religion is a form of mental illness.

[leftofthedial]

21. so you're saying that everyone who has ever killed anyone was nuts

Umm, according to our laws, it is YOU who is cutting him slack. "Not guilty by reason of insanity" ring any bells?

It is entirely possible, even likely, that he is just a murdering bastard. "Nuts" ain't any part of it.

Expecting reason from religious people is getting to be more and more of a losing proposition here in Murka in these times.

[Wilms]

6. Actually, according to this thread...

The sermon that set him off was advocating *'s SS plan.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1657234

[AlCzervik]

8. Did you read this page, the last paragraph tells them

to watch and you know what the bible predicts....
http://www.livingcog.org/commentary.htm

[Wilms]

28. "Living Cog". I like that.

These folk are "living cogs" in the gears of sick and self-fulfilling prophesies.

Can we charge them with "voting under the influence..."?

[Spinzonner]

2. Rhetorical Crtiicism is getting particularly nasty these days

[leftofthedial]

10. Praise Gawd

there are seven closer to their lord. The great day of their salvation is nigh!

From reading their website, these people were a suicide cult anyway.

[LittleClarkie]

17. Oh well then, lets go kill a few more Iraqis

so they can get closer to Allah. That's what they want, right? To be closer to their "gawd"?

Can't find that in the dictionary by the way. Is he a new diety, this Gawd?

Might I suggest www.dictionary.com if you're having trouble with any more three letter words.

[leftofthedial]

23. did you have your sarcasm bone removed

or was it damaged in some sort of horrible accident?

[janx]

13. All I can say is:

YIKES!

This is the first I've heard about Ratzmann.

[Deja Q]

19. Love that religion! What was in the sermon that drove him beyond the edge?

[Vinca]

20. Good thing he wasn't contemplating bankruptcy. n/t

[Flammable Materials]

22. I knew it had to be more than just an apocalyptic sermon.

Combine job loss and bleak prospects for future employment with a church that preaches doom, gloom, and destruction, and what do you get? Nihilism.

[GOPFighter]

24. Sad.

What is it the Freepers say, "God, Guns and Guts, made America great"?

Who knows what set this guy off. The fear of losing his job? At his age that would scare me too. How did he get the gun? Could this been avoided if his fellow congregants were armed and ready? (yes, that's sarcasm)

I'm sure we'll know more about him and his psyche in the coming days.

[oasis]

25. Another fundie Republican nutcase going berserk. They can't deal

with the contradictions and hypocrisy that bombard them day after day.

[DoYouEverWonder]

26. I expect to see a lot more of this sort of thing

has things get worse. A lot of people who buy into the fundie crap are on the edge at this point. Constant fear and sexual repression would drive anyone crazy after awhile.