A rose by any other name (flame bait)

[hedgehog]

Someone complained yesterday about the term "partial birth abortion". Let me understand this. The opening to the uterus is gradually stretched open. The fetus inside is carefully turned and the legs, torso and arms pulled out of the woman's body.(note that in normal circumstances a breech delivery is very dangerous and attempts are made to maneuver the fetus so it can be delivered head first.) An instrument is then used to pierce the skull of the fetus and suck out the brains, ensuring the fetus's death. Delivery of the fetus is then completed.

If a child must be delivered early due to fetal distress or mother's illness, a vaginal delivery is induced or a Cesarean is performed. I would suggest that the entire purpose of the above procedure is not to protect the mother but to ensure the death of the fetus.

Set aside whether this is right or wrong. Don't tell any horror stories of malformed children who won't live anyways. We live in a culture that refers to diabetes as sugar (as in "I have sugar") and anti-coagulants as "blood thinners". Complex medical terms are frequently replaced with a civilian term. Why so hot under the collar by the term "partial birth abortion"?

[Dookus]

1. are you a medical doctor?

[hedgehog]

3. Nope, are you?

[Dookus]

7. nope

so since neither of us is a doctor, why not just accept the medical term instead of the obviously inflammatory right-wing term that was given the procedure?

[hedgehog]

10. What is the medical term, and why are Latin based words

superior to plain English?

[Dookus]

11. Do you really not know the medical term?

If not, then perhaps you should do a little research before starting this thread.

If you don't know the name of the procedure you're complaining about, it's hard to take you seriously.

[hedgehog]

14. The question is whether th phrase accurately describes the procedure.

If I have accurately described what happens in my post, why the objection to the term? Why the necessity to hide behind the other name? Is it more scientific?

[Dookus]

17. because

medicine is one field, among many, where it's not productive to let laymen define the terms.

The only reason to do so in this case is to make a right-wing fundy asshole anti-woman muddle-headed political point.

[omega minimo]

23. "Plain English" like "Death Tax" instead of estate tax?

Surely by now you are aware of the "framing" topic and the insidious power of propaganda that conrols the American sheeple?

Are you aware that "partial birth abortion" is a non-medical, purely propagandist term invented to polarize voters and demonize women?

"Latin based words" meaning correct terms for medical procedures?

If you are aware of the power to manipulate with words and the bogusness of this term, why do you perpetuate it?

[Stop_the_War]

2. Because "partial birth abortion" is a bullshit term

It creates an image of an abortion that occurs while the fetus is partially-born or to put it more simply, hanging halfway outside of the woman's body.

[hedgehog]

4. It's my impression that that's exactly what we're talking about.

[Heddi]

25. Your impression is completely wrong

I suggested below that you go to a local college library (preferably one with either a MD or RN course) and check out some books on OB/GYN medical care or maternal/newborn care, and you'll see that your impressions aren't just a little wrong, they're completely off the mark.

[rodeodance]

6. it was conjured by the right ot life folks for political purposes--that is

why is it deceptive and should not be used (in addtion to being the wrong medical term for the procedure)!!! Simple as that!!

[mordarlar]

26. If that is not the process, could you please explain what it in fact is?

this is the only way i have EVER heard the procedure described.

[salinen]

5. "ensuring the fetus's death"

kinda gives you away.

[Dookus]

8. yeah

kinda does, doesn't it?

[hedgehog]

9. Well, isn't the death of the fetus the whole point?

Otherwise why not just deliver the fetus? I'm carefully avoiding saying "child" by the way.

[rodeodance]

12. Santorium sponsored the bill in mid 90's as I recall.

[hedgehog]

16. Hey - I said nothing about outlawing it.

For the record, I think anti-abortion laws are even more useless and damaging to society than anti-drug laws.

[mattclearing]

13. Isn't flamebait against forum rules now?

Or did something change in the past week?

As a sometime poster of flamebait posts, I am curious to know.

[hedgehog]

18. Sorry - I was making a poor joke in recognition of the fact

that so many people are so frozen on the subject they can't respond with some sort of knee jerk reaction. That applies to both sides. Something like 30 years on with this argument and has anyone done a thing to help women raise their children? It seems like both sides would rather spew their righteousness and ignore those involved.

[Dookus]

19. I spent years

as an abortion clinic escort, shepherding women and girls past the yelling, screaming, swearing fundies so they could get medical care.

I got into fights, got punched, threw a few myself: all to HELP those involved. That's not ignoring them - that's doing something productive.... more productive than starting ridiculous flamewars using right-wing talking points.

[rodeodance]

20. the head is left inside because of legalase. In order for a birth to

happen, the head must emerge (be born). The term 'partial' is wrong and stupid.

[ret5hd]

15. hey, i know...why dont you ask this guy...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x13644

[madinmaryland]

21. What are you trying to point out? n/t

[blogbear]

22. Why So Hot Under Their White Collars?

Could It Be Those 'Stinkweeds' envy the 'Rose'?

[Heddi]

24. As a nursing student with access to UNLIMITED medical text

and quite a few medical text of my own, there is no medical procedure called a 'partial birth abortion'. None.

It's not in any of my OB/GYN texts, it's in none of my Maternal-Newborn nursing texts, it's in none of my medical dictionaries, it's in none of my Medical/Surgical text books either.

Equally, neither are 'blood thinners' except to explain that the term blood thinner is extremely incorrect---drugs like Heparin and Coumadin (the two most popular 'blood thinners') don't actually "thin" the blood--they reduce platelet aggregation which can cause an increase in bleeding time and a decrease in clot function.

I've never heard a diabetic refer to themselves as 'having sugar'---and working in a hospital where 80%+ of my patients are diabetic, I'm sure I would have heard the term at some time or another.

Many women refer to having their 'tubes tied'--the actual name of the procedure is 'tubal ligation'. That's not the way the procedure is named in the text, and that's not the way a gynecological surgeon would relate the procedure to a woman.

As Dookus pointed out---Medicine is not a field where laypeople and non-medical-professionals have the right to relabel terms or make up their own terms.

The procedure that you refer to as "partial birth abortion" is actually called, medically, an Intact Dilation and Extraction. That's how it's defined in medical text, and that's how it would be written up in a patient care plan or chart.

Unlike the terms "blood thinners" referring to AntiCoagulants or "sugar" referring to diabetes, Partial Birth Abortion is used EXCLUSIVELY to appeal to basal emotions. Who would ever get a point across if they stood outside the courthouse or Senate holding a sign that said "STOP INTACT DILATIONS AND EXTRACTIONS NOW!!"? No one knows that that is (outside of the well-informed, and those in the medical community) However, holiding up a sign saying "STOP PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTIONS NOW!" well, there you got your appeal to emotions. There, you automatically have a picture of a woman who, upon feeling contractions, whisks herself into the local Planned Parenthood and demands an abortion RIGHT NOW at 8 months at 59 minutes.

Your understanding as to why Intact D&X's are done is woefully uninformed. You say "don't tell any horror stories about children who won't live anyways," but why do you want no discussion about why the procedure is done?

THe reason people get hot-under-the-collar about Intact D&X (partial birth abortions) is because for those who are against the procedure, and who use inflammatory non-medical terms to describe the procedure, they NEVER take into account why the procedure is done. They only want to appeal to basic human emotions that little babies = sacrosant and there's never a reason to remove them from the womb. Ever.

And, for the far, far, far far majority of Intact D&X's that are done, there's no reason to ensure the death of the fetus because the fetus is already dead, or has a condition that is not compatable with life outside the womb, or has no brains to suck out, or whatever contents are inside the skull aren't brain matter, but spinal fluid, or blood, or nothing at all.

In many cases, these are done in the case where the mother is pregnant with twins, and one has died in the womb. To remove just one of the twins pre-labour would surely result in fetal stress for the remaining twin. Therefore, removal of the dead fetus is held off for as long as possible to ensure safe development of the remaining twin, but also not so long as to cause the mother to go into septic shock, or to poision the amniotic fluid causing death to the other fetus. When you have twins, you can't just deliver one via C-Section and close the uterus up and let the other continue to grow and develop. That just doesn't happen. Once the uterus is opened, BOTH twins must be delivered at the same time. The living one MUST be removed along with the dead. If the death happens mid-term, the remaining twin may not have reached a stage of development that would be consistent with life outside the womb.

I urge you to go to your local library or medical college or nursing school and check out some texts on Maternal-Newborn Care, or OB/GYN medical texts. See WHY the procedure is done and HOW it is done, and realize that no doctor would perform an abortion at the 8th month without there being clear-cut evidence that the abortion NEEDED to be performed.

[Dookus]

27. Thanks Heddi...

I think that pretty much answers this self-described flamebait.

[Heddi]

28. I try to combat Medical Ignorance whenever I come across it

and sadly, between the litany of Abortion threads and "Terri Shiavo really will get up and rollerskate across ICU if given a proper chance" threads really make my medical-brain just go into a fucking tizzy.

Knowledge is so easy to obtain these days....I mean, half of my school books are available on the internet.

But I guess logic never has gotten in the way of a perfectly good flamebait, now has it?

PS--good work for all your posts on the Terri threads. I'm (supposed to be) studying for my Final that's coming up on Tuesday...but instead, I'm here at DU...talking about reality v. fiction of gynecological procedures. I wonder if I can get extra credit for all of this??