I'm 16 and trying to figure out my future. Should I move out of the US?

[Ithuilwen]

I'm very serious about this. Don't get me wrong: I love living in my home state of Maine, and I love the ideal that the United States *used* to represent. But it seems to me that all indicators are showing the United States floating farther up Shit Creek and consciously tossing its paddle overboard. If this is indeed the case, what should I do? Should I plan on pursuing a career that's more "marketable" overseas? If so, what? (I've always loved the idea of being involved in law, but wouldn't an American law degree be worthless somewhere other than America? And just to make it clear, I'm not talking corporate law or tax law, I'm interesting in ACLU-style civil liberties work. Diplomacy, politics, languages, and economics interest me, too.) To what countries/regions might I consider relocating? Which are the most stable, most politically active/free/liberal, best educated, highest quality of life, best economic future, etc.? Or should I stay here and try to change things for the better? How practical/idealistic should I be in that regard?

Your input is much appreciated!

Jennie

[seabeyond]

1. gonna need some activist laywers and judges to help fix this mess

i just see over time, boys will be looking where they are needed to heal this nation and that is where their education will be. they are smart, aware and capable

maybe since youa re so clever at 16 to be aware as you are, you will be a great addition in helping this nation to become great once again. about the time you are getting into things, will be about the time we have destroyed all and will be ready to rebuild

or not............

[SoCalDem]

2. Get good grades and apply for college opportunities abroad.

That way you could study abroad first, and make up your mind about where to live..later.. By studying abroad, you would have access to all the information you would need to stay there, and you migth meet your soulmate there. Marriage to a foreigner is often an easy way to have a choice:)

[Ithuilwen]

8. I'm definitely going to study abroad when I go to college

regardless of whether or not I attend a university outside of the U.S. Meeting a intelligent guy with an accent would certainly be an upside, too! ;)

Yet I still would have to decide on *where* I'd end up... and I'm very uncertain about committing myself to a place I know little about. It wouldn't be such a big deal were I to attend an American university (as is most practical for me) and spend a semester or two abroad. In that case, I could choose a country that speaks whatever language I end up studying in college. But if I actually went to a foreign university... that would be another matter entirely! How would I possibly decide on a country, and then a university in that country? Crazy, crazy things for me to think on, I suppose!

[bobbieinok]

21. there are some English programs recently instituted in German universities

you could learn German in the country but study in English

[stpalm]

3. No- I'm 16 too. Stay here and help change things!

[Us vs Them]

4. Please stay here and help us?

I'll be your friend, I promise!

[Lorien]

5. I agree with SoCalDem; go to school abroad

maybe Canada, New Zealand, Britain, France, Sweden...get a feel for what's out there. One of my biggest regrets in life is not having traveled when I was a teen (I had one opportunity to) and I'm more than twice your age. You're right; America is swiftly sailing down shit creek. It's not the country I knew when I was 16! It's all very well for some to say "stay and fight"; I'm sure there were many in Germany in 1930 that said the same thing when things started to look sour, and we have no idea how far our fascists will take things. You're young, you have opportunities and freedom now that you may not have five or six years from now. Plan to travel and study in another country. You won't regret it.

[SoCalDem]

10. My son went to college in Florence, Italy, and LOVED it

If his fiancee were more adventurous, I think he would love to live there. She's very close to her family,and would NEVER live apart from them.

[Ithuilwen]

11. I'm lucky that my parents

agreed to allow me to go on an AFS summer program this year. Hopefully, I'll be in Costa Rica studying Spanish for a month! So I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of experiencing lots of different places outside the U.S. But when it comes to the practical ramifications of actually living and working in another country -- not just visiting it for a set period of time -- that throws things into a different light. I guess it's just that I would like to think that wherever I might end up would be the best choice for me. Not that a particular country is "perfect", just that it's a place I'd feel comfortable and happy to call home. I'm not sure that this one fits those criteria at the moment...

[Lorien]

45. Then keep moving-nothing wrong with that

my stepsister has lived in Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, various states (Ohio, Texas, California), India, and is now living in Zimbabwe, in a house with no electricity that is owned by Jane Goodall (who sometimes shares it with her). my stepsister will be forty next month, and shows no signs of slowing down or "settling down". :-)

[Warpy]

6. If I were young and healthy

I'd probably think about getting the hell out before the military got me.

Face it, you don't have much of a future in this country, not now. Things may change for the better in the future, but both parties are being controlled by the same corporate interests, and those interests are not your friends.

The American people are in the process of being abandoned both by their government and by the business community.

[cloud75]

7. if you leave they win n/t

[Warpy]

13. If he leaves, he survives.

Winning means surviving and returning when the insanity has run its course and rebuilding the country.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. If I was 16...I'd be on my way out of here.

Go for it. Clinging to a dying empire is nonsensical.

[Ithuilwen]

14. That's my fear:

That this nation is a dying one. I don't want it to die, truly I don't, and if there is a way that I can help prevent its decline and restore its respect, trust me, I'll be fighting with the best of them. But I'm worried that it might sink so deeply into fascism (that it might already be too deep into fascism), that I'd be fighting a battle I'd be destined to lose. In that case, would it be better for me to work for the improvement of America's future from outside its borders? Kind of like how people from nations other than Germany did their best to rescue the Jews? Questions, questions...

Love your quote, btw.

[E_Smith]

12. no one can predict the future

this is still a great country and as much damage Bush has done, no one can predict the future... a Dem should win in '08 and start turning this mess around. i say stay here and find something you're passionate about.

[stillcool]

15. I have to agree with Tierra...

who knows how long it will take for this roller-coaster ride to come to an end. In that time, the education system in this country will be starved, so you may end up with a better education abroad, and, in surroundings that encourage your education rather than imperil it. I wonder if there are any Kent State alumni on this board that could contribute their insights on college life in troubled times.

[LeftyLizzie]

16. Stay here and fight with us!

I'm 18 and am headed off to college in a few months. I applied only to schools within the U.S. (and only within the Southeast, at that), and while I have in some ways regretted my decision to stay stateside and in the South, I mostly am glad I'm staying. Why? Because the United States is a great country, and the Democratic party has still got a lot of fight within it. Despite losses, there are still enough of us Democrats to fight and hope to turn this country around. Don't give up yet, there's far too much potential left here.

[E_Smith]

17. my sentiments exactly

the course of the USA in many ways determines the course of the world. if you want to change the world for the better, there is no better place to start than changing the US from within.

[Ithuilwen]

18. My idealistic side is right with you (and trust me, I'm quite idealistic)

but my practical side keeps niggling at me in the back of my brain. I hope, hope, hope that we'll be able to turn things around. And I know that there are many who feel as we do about the state of our country and want desperately to change things for the better. But I'm also constantly trying to keep pessimism and cynicism concerning our unresponsive government leaders and recent detrimental policy decisions at bay. Considering the fact that the election process appears to be thoroughly corrupt/rigged/bought-out, is it reasonable to think that citizens can actually effect desired change in this country anymore? Geez, it makes me depressed just to think about that.

On a happier note, I bet you're really excited to be going to college soon! I can't wait myself, and I've still got another year and a half of high school to survive! What college are you attending?

[Vinca]

20. You are wise beyond your years. As an older American,

I sincerely hope you stay, acquire a good education and forcefully lead the charge for everything that this country should stand for.

[LeftyLizzie]

22. I know exactly how you feel . . .

I might move overseas sometime after college, and I certainly intend to study abroad during college, but I'm hoping that things will turn around here and I'll be able to stay in the country that I love and fight for the things that I believe in(although the voting system does leave me very skeptical . . . we'll have to see what happens in '08). As for where I'm going to college next year, I don't know yet. So far I've been accepted at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and William and Mary - I'm still waiting to hear from Georgetown, Duke, and Davidson. I *hope* to attend Georgetown, because I would be attending their School of Foreign Service, where I would like to major in international politics. I have a very global perspective on things, so that really appeals to me. After college, I plan to attend law school, but we'll just have to see how things go.

[Ithuilwen]

25. Your college interests sound remarkably similar to my own

I'm thinking about double-majoring in political science and economics, with a minor in international relations or in a language. This may seem a bit crazy, but if I go to the University of Maine (I can get a really nice scholarship there because of my ranking in my high school class), I can get a hell of a lot of AP credit there. So double-majoring plus minoring isn't as superhuman as it may first look! And yes, law school afterward! Interesting how people with more global outlooks tend toward these fields of study.

My dad went to pharmacy school at Chapel Hill. My parents say it's a gorgeous place. I think the one school down in that area that I'd think about attending would be George Washington University, just because it seems like their internship opportunities (not to mention location!) are amazing. I hope you get accepted into Georgetown -- sending positive "good luck" vibes in your direction!

[Athame]

32. I work in Study Abroad for a large university

and would absolutely encourage you to look into it. You can probably go on a program through the University of Maine and keep your scholarships and AP credit. In the fields of political science and economics, you might want to check out study abroad opportunities in the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden.

Leiden University in the Netherlands has excellent connections to the Hague and the International Court, with many courses in English. Maastricht in the south has a Faculty (school) of economics that is world-class and all courses are taught in English. Utrecht University has fewer English offerings right now, but is adding more all the time. The University of Copenhagen and the University of Lund, Sweden both have growing opportunities to take regular university courses in English while learning the host languages at the same time.

Even if you end up staying in the states, a study abroad experience will give you a perspective you just cannot get here. Once you do that, many other opportunities will open up to you.

Keep us posted on your plans. I think you are certainly going to be "going places"!

[Ithuilwen]

39. Wow

Thanks for the information! Very helpful indeed, and I'll definitely look into the universities you mentioned.

[frustrated_lefty]

51. LeftyLizzie

Give a VERY close look at Chapel Hill. A friend of mine went there, and I visited her periodically. Chapel Hill is gorgeous, the people are huggably human and you're close to any kind of outdoor environment you might even consider visiting.

Chapel Hill is simply amazing.

[Jim__]

19. I think you can be most influential here

Overseas, you will be a foreigner. I'm sure there are countries that will accept you; but, I think your opinion will alway carry less weight than a native.

Most Americans are good people. I think they've been fooled by bush. But that will end. And we will need bright motivated young people to help use recover our ideals.

[blogbear]

23. I'm Sure We've All Felt That Way And...

The Grass Looks Greener Elsewhere But We Have No Guarantees That IS Really The Case..So I Hope You Will Join Us Who Can't Leave For Whatever Reason In A Pilgrimage For Social Justice And Constructive Change. We Need You!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

24. Yes, either go to Canada or head to the E.U.

Canada is rich in national resources, it has a reasonably-competent government. It's budget is generating surpluses and they're paying off their national debt (instead of piling it on like the U.S.). Also it has better social and public services. Canada has a good future ahead of it

Going to the E.U. has it's advantages. The Euro currency and Pound Sterling are much more stable than the U.S. Dollar and have a lot more integrity in their worth. Also they, like Canada have significantly better health care and public services. The E.U. is becoming wealthier and it's only a matter of time before the Euro replaces the Dollar as the world's reserve currency.

Whatever you choose, I suggest that you become a naturalised citizen and make a new start. Becoming a naturalised citizen in a E.U. country will mean you can live and work in any of the 25 countries without restriction - a great benefit to have. That might be a difficult decision to make, but it would be good for your future.

[E_Smith]

26. go to Canada?

I find it hard to believe that Canada holds more opportunities than the United States. I think people are flying off the handle a little--Bush is doing that to us, but c'mon people. I'm all for travelling the world but changing citizenships? The US is not dead. If you still love your country you should stay and help correct its problems.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

27. I respect your opinion, but I gave my advice from the heart

I hope whatever the DUer chooses that it's the right thing and that they live a good and happy life.

[K8-EEE]

38. McGill University (Canada) Isn't Too Far From Maine....

They are seeing more and more US students in the colleges there -- I know somebody whose kid went to McGill and LOVED it -- Ivy League quality education for something like $8,000. Heck, that's what I pay for private High School for my daughter here in L.A.!

[E_Smith]

41. i ran a track meet at McGill once

I liked the place. Montreal was alright too. But I dont think educationally it equates to Ivy League. You got a link for that one?

[K8-EEE]

43. Remember, GWB Is A Product Of the Ivy League!!

So...ya know...

My friend's son really wanted to go to Northwestern and was accepted but didn't want to break his parents financially which was commendable I think.

He thought it was a great program - and even though he would have gotten a partial scholarship at NW he still saved TENS OF THOUSANDS by going there.

http://www.mcgill.ca/

[Ithuilwen]

30. Thanks for the advice!

This is the kind of information I was after when I started this thread.

Going to Canada (especially the PEI, Newfoundland, New Brunswick area) would be relatively easy seeing as I live in Maine. I could still be near family and friends while living outside of the U.S. But at the same times, do you think Canada's proximity to the U.S. could be a downside in any way? That could be a non-issue, it's just a question that popped into my mind as I was writing thsi.

Moving to Europe has a great allure, I must admit. Perhaps its just my own impression, but Europeans, as a whole, seem to me to have a much better approach to life than do most Americans. And the versatility of being a naturalized citizen in the E.U. has practical appeal. Are there any countries that should be *avoided*, though? For instance, I've heard that the populations of some European countries are aging to the point that it is straining government social programs (of course, this could just be something that conservatives like to say to downplay the successes of such programs). I'm so ignorant when it comes to what other countries are really like -- from a citizen's perspective, not a tourist's, it's the "inside" information that I'm after.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

33. I don't think the Canada's proximity to the US to be a downside

Judging from your family situation it may well be a potential upside. I doubt that the US would show military aggression towards Canada, because doing so would draw the European powers into a war on the side of Canada (the prospect of which is remote). Canada's economy is in a strategic position, to the south is the US and east and west lie the E.U. and Japan/China. Canada is also a very underpopulated country which means cheap land for economic and population development.

Turning to the EU. Germany seems to be having economic problems, these stem from German reunification in 1990 that have constrained German economic growth over the last 15 years. The U.K. can be a good option (despite Blair) and you wouldn't need to learn a new language. It has impressive growth and good job opportunities. Sweden is a excellent place to live with a very high standard of living. France and Italy are also good too, but I would avoid southern Italy. Netherlands, Belguim and Denmark are also excellent places to live too (also very liberal). Ireland is a prosperous and growing country, but if you were to go there I would stay in the Dublin area as Ireland is quite culturally conservative overall - but Dublin is fairly cosmopolitan.

I wouldn't worry about the aging populations/pensions issue, Germany is the country that has the worst problem in that area. Most E.U. countries are taking steps to deal with it and are in a far better position than the U.S.

I hope whatever you decide and wherever you live that you'll be very happy. :)

[K8-EEE]

44. It's GREAT....Xmas and Thanksgiving At Home

Without breaking the bank! I know my friends whose kids go to East coast colleges, it costs a bloody fortune to travel during the holidays. That's the one cost they didn't think about. And too depressing to have them there during the holidays before they know enough people to get invited places & stuff.

[E_Smith]

34. go to Amsterdam

if you want to party. Europe is cool and all but I can't say I have the same impression of Canada. If the US economy goes south guess what, we will drag Canada right down with us, and personally I'd rather be on this side of the border. You need to check out the south because our weather rocks and you won't want to move to Canada I guarantee you.

I've also heard that european countries are not reproducing enough to keep up w/ death rates and they have immigration issues from Muslim countries.

for goddsakes, visit Europe but stay here!

[jedr]

28. recognize that by the time you are ready for the work force ;

that it will be a global economy...languages are a must , think about Arabic and Chinese ...go abroad...if you think that experience will out-weigh your not being near you extend family ...go for it.....as far as changing things...we did it in the 60's , but your up against the Gestapo and brown shirts now....if all the Jews stayed in Germany , would they have changed anything...best of luck!

[Silverhair]

29. Stay here. It has been far worse in the past.

Yep. Despite all the drama posturing here at DU, we have been in far worse shape in past times. In WWI there was genuine censorship of the press. A congressman was jailed for speaking out against the war. People were literally beaten up by their neighbors if they didn't buy war bonds. The POTUS, Woodrow Wilson, had every town form committees of citizens to watch on their neighbors for unpatriotic activity. The newspapers were not allowed to report on the flu epidemic that was killing thousands daily, except to say that it only a minor concern and no cause for alarm. (Try not being alarmed when almost every porch in a city had a corpse on it that had been there for days and wasn't picked up because there was such a backlog of bodies.)

Bad economy? Look at the 1930s, or the late 1970s.

Race relations? Look at all the race riots in the 1960s. Every summer saw several cities erupt in flames.

Stolen elections? Have you ever heard of the Tammany Hall machine, Mayor Daley's organization, or LBJ's in Texas? And sometime shortly after the civil war there was a POTUS election that was flagrantly stolen. (I don't feel like doing the googling at the moment to find a link.)

America is a land that faces problems and works to solve them. It may not happen in the time frame of a one hour TV program, but little bit by little bit this country is improving, and will continue to improve.

This country is bigger than any one POTUS, or any one event, or any one political party.

America is more than a country, it is an ideal, but like any ideal - it needs people to polish it and keep it shining.

[Ithuilwen]

35. I've no doubt that things have been pretty bleak in this country

...throughout its history, and perhaps I'm just being naive and pessimistic. Yet I can't help but wonder in some Brave New World-ish way if technology/communication is getting to the point that people can unknowingly be controlled/exploited in a more insidious way than ever before possible. Maybe that's a somewhat irrational, tin-foil hat outlook... I can't be sure. As the world becomes more and more globalized, is it a good idea to trust that when all is said and done, the people who can exercise global influence (big corporation leaders, policy-makers of countries with strong militaries/large economies) will do what is best for humankind instead of selfishly looking after their own? Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and I don't want to be a victim or an onlooker. I want to be in position to counter corruption. Whether that position will ultimately be within or without the borders of the U.S. is what I'm trying to figure out.

Just my own thoughts based on my (necessarily-limited) knowledge of what's happening around me. :/

[Silverhair]

37. The realities of complexity math prevents any super conspiracy

from exercising that kind of control. The world simply can not be controlled because it can not be accurately modeled. Too many variables. Too many unknowns. Too many unpredictables. Too many surprises.

[Karenina]

40. Get thee to another country

study, learn a new language and culture. TRAVEL while you're at it. If you are in a position to do those things NOW, please heed the words we repeated daily with Buffalo Bob, "Never put off till tomorrow, what you can do TODAY!" ;-)

[blm]

31. Except WHATEVER happens in the US ends up EFFECTING the rest of the world.

So, you really aren't getting away FROM anything.

Stay and be the change as much as you can. The Fascism of the Republicans will wear thin eventually.

[John_Shadows_1]

36. Get the hell out of here as quick as you can...

... the American economy is going to sink like a stone when the dollar collapses - we've gone into an unsustainable economic regime that is going to come crashing down sooner than later.

Right now, to keep our economic 'growth' going, consumers are having to spend like crazy people and assume huge amounts of debt to do that. We import more goods that we sell, and the only way that we can continue to do that is to mortgage more American assets (this is the result of what is called the 'current account deficit'). At some point, we're going to have to pay up.

Bush is making the problem worse by running these huge deficits - the new debt has to be funded by selling American bonds to foreign investors, but now demand for those is drying up - which means that interest rates are going to have to increase to make the bonds more attractive. When interest rates on bonds rise, they generally rise on consumer debt as well, which means people have to spend more on interest on their loans and debt than on consumer goods, which, as I mentioned, is the only thing driving economic growth.

And don't get me started on the effect that rising oil prices are going to have on our exurban, commuter culture - that's going to eat up more disposable income. And you might want to keep in mind that a draft might be around the corner, as well - I don't know about you, but standing in Fallujah in battle-dress in 110 degree heat and hoping you don't get hit with a car bomb doesn't sound like a great way to spend one's years of formative adulthood.

I repeat -> get out of here while the getting is good! The American lifestyle is a cancer on humanity, and the chickens are going to come home to roost.

[anonymous44]

42. Yes, it probably will only get worse

[the_outsider]

46. I will recommend spending some time in India and China, if at all possible

That's where the most interesting things will happen in the next 50 years or so and they can use lots of civil rights activists and lawyers if their inevitable giant economic growths are to be translated into genuine social progress and justice for all.

[cire4]

47. You can always try to get into a foreign university.....

Pretty much any college in the world can accept American students (provided that they're qualified). But I would recommend universities in Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and, if possible, Sweden and the Netherlands. These countries offer instruction in English and the so-called 'culture shock' is minimal. Plus, they offer a very good education, comparable to many American universities.

If you want to get a global education, then nothing will open the door more than a degree that you earned in another country. If you are really daring and feel like you can handle it, then go for it. But if not, then going to an American college and spending a year studying abroad is also an amazing experience in and of iteslf.

Also, American college students can also receive work permits to work in Britain (earn that Pound baby), Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, and Canada. The significance of this cannot be stressed enough. It is very very very hard for an American to get permission to earn money in another country (without being sponsored by a company). College students are lucky because they are one of the few groups who can. So if you can get into college, then you already have a door open to work and support yourself in another country.

You're young. You have many options. Don't sress it. See what comes naturally....

[Speed8098]

48. Stay.

If you're interested in politics, then, to start with, run for local office.

Move on from there.

What kind of country will we be in 30 years if all of the people who are dissatisfied, leave?

Stand up, fight for change. Don't tuck your tail and run.

[GraysonDave]

49. Travel, experience the world

You can always come back if you don't find what you want. My advice is to research some place that interests you for some reason and then go experience it!

I only wish I had taken my own advice. It gets harder and harder to uproot oneself the older you get. Start young and GO!

[Deja Q]

50. If peak oil is for real, there is no place to escape to.

And I'm serious about that.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frustrated_lefty]

52. Ithuilwen

I can't fairly comment on your academic interests. Law's not my thing, but a degree in law is certainly a worthwhile pursuit.

You're not obligated to stay in the US, not when the country does so very much to cripple you and yours. Hell, you run the risk of being drafted at your age.

I won't tell you what I think you should do, because you're old enough to make that decision for yourself. I will, if you care to listen, tell you what I am doing and why.

I am preparing to move my family to the UK. It comes out to about $300 a head just to fill out the paperwork. The cost for a seat on a plane oneway is currently about $700 per person. You're looking at a minimum of 1 grand, roughly, just to get overseas.

What I am doing is saving up the money to get my kids out of here.

Others are telling you to "stay and fight." Do it if that's what you want. If you plan on having children, though, I suggest you get the hell out of the US. Social care in Canada or the UK makes that in the US look laughable.

I am getting my children out of here because I want them safe. Everything else is superfluous.