Re: Bill Maher's theory of Bush as Democracy Idiot Savant in Mideast

[cybildisobedience]

I know that a thread was posted last night about Bill Maher's disappointing program last night, and I agree, by the way. But I think we need to respond to the notion that Maher proposed that Bush's ignorance on the Middle East was actually a blessing because "he could imagine something we could not see."
WTF??!?!?!?
Look, I know there was talk of "RealTime" being cancelled during it haitus, and Maher is clearing sucking up to coporate conservatives to hold onto to his profitable gig, but this kind of lunacy cannot stand.
On top of being told that even though Bush lied, and that there are more than 100,000 dead Iraqis, and that more than 1500 U.S. soldiers are dead and possibly tens of thousands of more injured, it's all OKAY -- now we have to accept that Bush's refusal to gain even the most basic understanding of the most volatile region on the planet is a PLUS?!?!?!!?
Because it resulted in democracy?!??!
Right -- democracy like we have here? Votes that can't or won't be counted, a media that is terrified to do its job, citizens who can't get into town meetings to express themselves, and who are forced to stand often miles away holding a sign and STILL getting harrassed by the police? Greedy corporatists running public policy?
I could go on and on...

[Walt Starr]

1. As far as I'm concerned, Maher "Millered" himself last night

I'll not be waching his show again, just as I stopped watching Miller when he went over to the dark side.

[helderheid]

2. Took the words out of my mouth

My jaw dropped when he said that.

[Auntie Bush]

3. I'll not be watching any more.

[JitterbugPerfume]

7. I never liked his attitude toward women

now I like him even less

[Ninga]

8. I will be joining you, and raising you two cards. I have

canceled HBO.....and it is going to be pretty darn yucky. I will miss Larry David, the Sopranos, etc,etc,etc....

I got a Sirius Radio last May strictly for Air America Radio, because Cleveland radio does not get AAR.

I actually was thinking about not renewing AAR, and last night's "Real Time" made my decision for me.

In the larger scope of things, will my cancellation of HBO mean anything to the corporate types?? NO. But I consider it to be a grain of sand step toward standing up for my beliefs. And AAR now is the only place I can hear my views argued, substantiated, proven, researched, etc.

If anyone out in DU land can afford to get a Sirius Radio to get Air America Radio, please seriously consider it.

[NYCGirl]

18. Lots of people here don't think some on AAR are pure enough either. NT

[thecorster]

23. don't you think if we act like this

we become as exclusionary and one-sided as the ideologues we despise? dont get me wrong, if you felt you had to cancel hbo based on this event, more power to you for going thru with it. i just think that giving up all sources of different viewpoints blinds us and makes us more like "them."

[rooboy]

4. Well, bush does think that a candy bar costs $100....

but the comparisons with Rain Man end about there.

[Sporadicus]

5. *'s Debacle in the ME Is Far from Over

It's way too early to proclaim 'democracy breaking out all over the Middle East.' Iraq itself may yet descend into civil war before the dust settles. Those Lebanese protesting for Syria's total withdrawal may find the situation swinging toward conditions in 1975. Resurgence of the hardline Likud could put the kibosh on settling the Palestinian question. We all know the phrase uttered by Winston Wolf in 'Pulp Fiction' regarding premature congratulations.

I'm incensed by Bill Maher's comments as well, and I see no good to come from widespread praise for the neocons' eternal warfare policies. Public stance on this issue may prove to separate the sheep from the goats.

[Coastie for Truth]

14. I give Bush no credit for Democracy in the ME

I give most of the credit to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for "stealing the jobs from young Palestinians and Egyptians, and Jordanians, etc. and taking them away to Bangalore."

<>

This is social and political dynamite. We have a generation of secularly educated young people across the ME -- and the jobs that they were "promised" locally have materialized in Bangalore, Singapore, and China. The ME is just too "unsafe" for any job growth outside of oil. And these young people know it -- this is the pressure for Democracy in the ME --- and not Bush.

[Demit]

6. There's democracy in the ME like there was a Mission Accomplished.

That is, it's ephemeral. It's not real. All those pundits posing the question "Was Bush Right?" are going to get the answer sooner or later, and it is going to be "Of Course Not".
And it's going to be as unequivocal as post-Mission Accomplished events proved to be.

I can only assume that Bill Maher is trying to ride out the next 4 years along with all the other self-preserving commentators. He'll just have to live with his tarnished reputation.

[Jazzgirl]

9. When Maher made the statement about *shrub's

ignorance resulting in democracy, I changed the channel. I used to wait for this show to come on Friday's but I don't think I'll be watching it anymore. I wanted to :puke:

[Walt Starr]

10. He's gone the way of Dennis Miller, I tell ya!

And how many Miller fans stuck around for his HBO show after Miller drank the Koolaid, which explains why he's a nobody on CNBC ranting for his corporate masters to earn the peanuts they throw at the monkey!

Maher will be worse off because once Maher loses his audience, he is well and truly fucked because no corporate master is going to throw peanuts at that monkey! He'll wind up worse off than the first Darin from Bewitched!

[JanMichael]

12. I did the same, just flipped the channel.

I was trying to have a decent Friday night and not hear yet another corpo clown use a backdoor way to shill for Bush.

[AlCzervik]

11. The only ones that made sense last night was Barney Frank and

Richard Belzer.

[DemonFighterLives]

13. Sorry to hear of Maher's finish

I was sensing his failing 6 months to a year ago. Actually, with the way things are going, he may have had an anthrax like warning like Daschle. I don't have any proof of course, but how can these tigers change their stripes over night. And follow a directionless leadera at that. :+ Almost want to feel sorry for him.

[dennis4868]

15. I guess according to Maher.....

if god forbid a women is raped (i.e., Iraq) and she is therefore rushed to the hospital and the doctors do basic tests on the woman and they discover she has cancer and they catch it on time to save her life, the rapist (i.e., Bush) is a hero and deserves credit for saving the woman's life (i.e., democracy)? Now in Bush's case there is no democracy in the middle east. Where?

What a total screwup Maher is....

[ChiciB1]

16. I Was Just Going To Post About Maher

I was very disappointed with his show last night AND his show last week. I know he's an avowed Libertarian, but has been a friend of the left up until lately. And pretty much Anti-Bush!

His show last night really depressed me!! Saying that now matter HOW Bush theorized his decision of going to War is of no matter now because basically it MIGHT have been correct in the end.

I don't think this is a correct assumption because frankly it's MUCH TOO EARLY to make any final analysis here. There is still a great deal of havoc and terrorism in the middle east, and we have YET to deal with the problem with Saudi Arabia.

And now, he's promoting a program that invites conservatives to be part of his audience and is devoting a whole show to this. I can't tell you how let down I feel. What's next... Jon Stewart?? I don't if it would do any good to write him and let him know how I feel because I'm not sure it would make much difference. He says what he wants and doesn't seem to care what anyone thinks anyway. Does anyone think it's a good idea to write?? And if so, is there a link??

On a brighter note, and I don't know if this is going to be covered on cable, but since I have a Dish I see that Al Franken will be back on my TV!

[Inland]

17. Another who can't emotionally accept US led by an idiot leaving corpses

Americans love their country. They feel it has bright, good people. And it is difficult to accept that it is being led by a person who could be as dumb, as craven, as selfish, and destructive and as hostile to basic democratic ethics as the facts reveal Bush to be.

It is simply too look at reality---becaue we see clues that God has abandoned us, or our luck and our culture has run out, and left us with a pretend republic run by pirates.

So Mahrer WANTS to believe that Bush has dumb luck instead of just being dumb. He WANTS to look at the bright side and not see the thirty or so dead from today. He WANTS to see a brighter future. That's Bush's strength as a poltician--he assumes that nobody is going to accept that he is as his acts would lead a rational person to believe. As Vonnegut said, pirates have the advantage of surprise, in that one cannot estimate the extent of his greed and evil until it is too late.

[justiceischeap]

19. Seems he's been spending too much time with Ann Coulter n/t

[Colorado Blue]

20. Am I the ONLY person on DU who feels it's OK for a

liberal to play the devil's advocate on occasion?

Frank Rich, in the NY Times, wrote an article recently castigating the right for their hysteria over "indecency". No doubt pretty well all of us can agree with him on THAT!

BUT, Rich went on to propose that the Left, at a certain point, starts sounding exactly like the Right. Our issue isn't indecency, but our own form of "political correctness" - a great part of which consists of refusing even to listen to other opinions, and severely castigating anybody who argues a conservative position even if the primary goal of that argument is merely to stimulate conversation.

I submit that people are overreacting to Bill Maher's show. I do NOT share his opinion, BTW, and I doubt that he supports Bush OR the war. I am of the opinion, however, that liberals can't grow if we keep our ears plugged up.

We can't grow as individuals and we certainly can't grow as a movement if we simply turn off the tube every time we hear something that challenges our assumptions.

[thecorster]

24. you aren't alone.

i dont agree with what he said, but i respect that he isnt just blindly following one party. he's still a liberal guy, and we have to wait and see where he steers the rest of his comments.

[Colorado Blue]

25. Thanks, I was beginning to feel a bit beleaguered!

[Al-CIAda]

21. The Dems had better get better fighters out there.

They're like Spin Machines or Truth Terminators. The two wingnuts on the show were monopolizing the conversation. I hadn't seen either of them anywhere before. There must be factories pumping them out. With Ann Coulter as the prototype, its impressive how they are coming out with models in all races and genders.

The Dems had better get better fighters out there. These people will say and do anything. The constant flow of lies said with authority and going unchallenged is shaping debate.

It is most disappointing that Bill is buying into the 'ends justify means' arguement. The 'means' include lying to the American people and world -over and over about a whole host of issues. The 'means' include fabricating evidence, lying to congress...a cost of $600 Bil. ...stolen billions, 100,000+ people dead...torturing innocent people...etc.

The key to dismantling the mythology and propaganda of the paradigm we are being forced to enter into is to expose the truth about 9/11 and who is benefiting. What about the War Games? Why is it that the PNAC is never mentioned? A "New Pearl Harbor". Holding to account the truth about 9-11 should have been THE issue in the campaign. Surely the PNAC should have.
Its amazing how gullable and maliable the ignorant are. More amazing is how that despite a mountain of evidence that damns the lies, the so-called opposition takes dive after dive or when it DOES fight, it pulls its punches.

[Just Me]

22. Perhaps, he is more vulnerable/naive/ignorant than he realizes.

Maybe he is working backwards from a "fortune telling" assumption that the future will be "democracy" in the M.E. (just as the neoCONs do).

Is that being "visionary"? Sure. The problem is that "vision" also includes deception, manipulation, breaching the rules of law, and lots of death and bloodshed as the path to such a "vision".

The world has rejected "visionaries" that utilize such destructive means to fulfill a "vision" which may NEVER come to pass. The world prefers "visionaries" akin to MLK and Ghandi whose nonviolent methods achieved greater freedom and equality than their counter-violent-parts.

[Colorado Blue]

26. All above comments regarding the horrors of the war are

manifestly true.

However, it is also true that Middle Eastern leaders are actively becoming involved in promoting peace and the democratic process. Hamas has announced it will now participate in Palestinian elections, rather than boycotting them. Demonstrations of MANY factions have occurred just in past few weeks in Lebanon - PEACEFUL demonstrations, although the factions disagree with each other. Mubarek of Egypt is working to promote talks BETWEEN Palestinian factions and also to provide Israel with an Arab safety net in exchange for releasing land. The Palestinians are rejecting suicide bombings. Sharon is calling in Peace Now to help in the withdrawal process. Syria has withdrawn from Northern Lebanon. Jordan went to visit Israel. The Saudis are definitely at least TALKING about allowing women to vote in the next elections, in 2006. This is a HUGE step - considering the position of women in the Saudi kingdom. The woman on the show, a Muslim who has interviewed all kinds of people in the M.E. including the head of the Islamic Jihad in Gaza, reports that liberal voices are popping up all over the Middle East, voices that truly want to go forward and live in more open, secular and modern states.

It must be said that Bill Maher has really stuck his neck out on the issue of women's rights in the Arab world. Many of us liberals are afraid to offend Muslims so we don't talk about women's rights in the M.E. He has tried to get Robert F. Kennedy Jr. out in front of the cameras on environmental issues. We need to keep pushing for that, getting the MSM to be more responsible in its "reporting". He declared last night that the MSM is totally irresponsible, cramming Michael Jackson down our throats 24/7, except when it is cramming things like the murders in Atlanta 24/7. Neither of which are important stories but then we're all aware of the ridiculous depths to which the MSM has sunk.

I don't think we should feel despair! I'm glad people disagreed on the show and I'm glad we're disagreeing here. It's fruitful, it is NOT a sign of koolaid drinking, whatever that is. No doubt, one must always worry that corporate money is involved but fomenting lively debate is most definitely the purpose of an entertainer like Maher. After all he is an ENTERTAINER, not a world leader:)

[dameocrat]

27. It's not as bleak as it appears

He isn't betraying the antiwar movement. We are calling his bluff. You see Bush used the lack of democracy in the middle east to put off doing things that needed to be done, like getting out of Iraq, finding Osama and solving the Israeli Palestinians crisis. There is no excuse anymore.

[Stirk]

28. Oh, give the guy a break.

I disagree with his comments, but that's fine. I've enjoyed his comedy in the past, and I wouldn't dump someone just for one comment. If he makes a habit of praising the Neocon agenda, like Dennis Miller, then it would become impossible to ignore and I'd cease to be a fan.

But what good are we if we can't occasionally ask very stupid, or very unpopular questions?

[Toucano]

29. "But how many would have died under Saddam?"

When Bill said this, I knew he had drank the kool-aid.

The right-wing talking point establishes Saddam as the new measure of morality.

As long as we did less harm than Saddam would have done, it's morally alright.

Well, Bill is paid to be provocative, not wise.

[ChiciB1]

30. This Is A Point Of Agreement

I felt he went over the TOP with this statement and that Minja broad was far too abusive and he was agreeing with her. I thought perhaps she was on some kind of speed or something.

In the past, I think Bill would have made a comment regarding that. As in "just what are you on"? But he basically let her monologue the whole program. Her able pounding and jumpy attitude was a bit nerve racking to me. I myself am a bit "hyper-active", but was amazed at how he simply let her go on and on. I realize he is an entertainer, but having said that, he himself chooses to make his show "political" too.

I won't be watching this Friday, but I may watch it when it runs again on Monday night on Dish. I think we do need more vocal people out there because as it stands now, the other side thinks it has the higher ground and is willing to shove it up our asses no matter what!

I am extremely upset about his show, even if some think he has a RIGHT to express his feelings. Time will tell if there is real ME Peace. It's far too soon to tell!