What would happen to the Dem Party if Kucinich wins?

[eablair3]

If Kucinich were to win the Dem nomination, what would that do to the Dem Party? Dennis K says he'd immediately drop NAFTA and the WTO if he were to become President.

Do you think that Lieberman and people like him would support Kucinich, if he were to win the nomination? What would Lieberman do? Zell Miller? The DLC types? What would they do? They are paid a lot of money by big money interests. Would they finally switch parties and become Repugs? Is it the case that they want you fall behind them if they win the nomination, but if someone like Kucinich were to win, they'd say adios?

[Brucey]

1. They'd mostly stay together,

although enthusiasm would be low (just as we would feel if Joe were the nominee). DK would have less support among some Dems, but most would endorse him and work for his election because it would mean better times for them (and maybe jobs in his admin).

[Cocoa]

43. I agree, though not about the enthusiasm

I think even Lieberman is 100% ABB. He would work hard for whatever dem wins the nomination.

Terry McAuliffe had some good things to say about DK at a DNC event in the spring, and vice versa. Bush has really brought all these people together.

[TahitiNut]

71. "Enthusiasm" is a characteristic of activism ...

... and the DLC (From and Reed) maligns the 'activists' in the Democratic Party. (It makes me happy I'm not a party partisan.) Kucinich makes no aspersions about activists. He's an elected 'activist'. I've never detected any kind of 'enthusiasm' from centrists beyond a shrug of the shoulders. :shrug: Salut!

[Cocoa]

77. you never saw enthusiasm from Bill Clinton?

I just saw a clip on C-span from his first campaign against Poppy. I didn't care for Clinton at that time, but one thing you couldn't say about him was that he didn't show enthusiasm.

[TahitiNut]

79. Sure must be a lot of straw lying around here.

:eyes:

[Rainbowreflect]

2. To paraphrase:

Great ideas always encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. In other words Dennis would be in for a fight, but if he won this country & the world would be a much better place.

[Karmadillo]

3. Here's what Kucinich thinks might happen

http://www.bankofknowledge.net/2004/archives/000211.html

Yesterday, Rob asked several questions:
1) It is almost certain that you will be working with a Republican-controlled Congress at least initially during your tenure. Given that, do you believe it likely that you will be able to get the Congress to pass bills authorizing programs for national health care, withdrawal from NAFTA and WTO, reversal of the Bush tax cuts (which will probably be permanent by then), and dealing with other hot-button issues that the Republicans have been so steadfastly against. You can?t just declare these things by executive order; and I don?t see how you can get such ?radical liberal? programs passed. That makes many of your 10 key issues non-starters.

My nomination will set the stage for a Democratic Congress. In 1932, when president Franklin Roosevelt was nominated, he ran on a platform of broad economic reform, which excited people to come out in vote in their own enlightened self-interest. As a result, FDR led a Democratic sweep, which resulted in a pickup of 90 House seats and 13 Senate seats. This was accomplished because he represented profound change. He represented jobs, he represented rebuilding America, he represented a hope for popular control over predatory corporations. My nomination will reverse the results of the 1994 election when the Democrats were unable to regain the House and lost the Senate principally because the parties? ties to corporate interests muted the differences between the parties and discouraged the Democratic base. My nomination will excite the Democratic base, will broaden the reach of the party, and will engage third party activists to join us in a mighty effort to reclaim our government.

[Nederland]

18. Earth to DK

This ain't 1932. Not even close.

[leftofthedial]

64. Nope. It's worse than 1932 in many ways

[bloom]

4. I'm afraid we would see DLC type Democrats

supporting Republicans. In Bloomington, in the last election, I was pained to see high profile Democrats support the Republican rather then the (greenish) Democrat.

:(

[11cents]

5. Jon Stewart has the answer

Monkeys would fly out our butts! And how would we feed them all?

[webtrainer]

8. There would be a terrible monkey problem . . .

though we currently have quite a chimp problem on our hands at present.

[REP]

47. I'm Not Worrying About a Huge Monkey Problem

Neither is Jon Stewart.

[eablair3]

6. I'd like to see the question posed to Lieberman

I'd like to see a question posed to Lieberman at a debate about this. One could ask about a Kucinich candidacy, but given Lieberman's comments, it might even be more enlightening to ask one of Lieberman about Dean:

"Sen. Lieberman, you have been very critical of several democratic candidates. You have stated that several of them cannot win. You stated that Gov Dean's candidacy is a "ticket to no where." And, you have recently been very critical of Gov Dean's comments on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If Gov Dean were to win the nomination, would you support his candidacy for the presidency?"

i'm sure jumpin joe would find a way to work around the question by not answering it. He'd have to. But, i'd like to see it asked nonetheless.

[Tinoire]

10. Yes we would... The hoods/masks would come totally off

and we would clearly see which DINOs we need to repudiate and vote out. With Kucinich as President, there could be no more of the nonesense we've been seeing and DINO apologists would be out of a job!

Wow, a cleaner Dem party- imagine that! Corporations' and the DLC's greatest fear!

[LynneSin]

7. We'd be voting for Dennis

:shrug:

[Capn Sunshine]

9. There would be a huge spike in hospital costs

for emergency treatment of the rash of
monkeys flying out of asses everywhere

I like Dennis Kucinich. I believe he would be the ideal HHS secretary.

Shine on you crazy diamond,but, it will never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever
never never ever ever never never ever ever happen.

[no name no slogan]

28. No there wouldn't be...

We could simply institute a "right-wing lying hypocrite tax" on the Bush administrations' rank and file. I'm fairly certain almost everyone in his admin is at least a millionaire, if not richer. Just think, a flat 5% tax on all the wealth of BushCo, in return for not impeaching their asses for lying to the American public about Iraq. Just think what we could do!

Look on the bright side-- if Dennis won, your ass surgery would be covered by a universal health care plan, which would cost at least 5% less than what your employer is currently paying.

And you wouldn't have to search out a clinic that's included in your health plan, either! BECAUSE EVERY CLINIC IN THE COUNTRY WOULD BE IN THE PLAN! We'd ALL have 'freedom of choice' of medical providers-- not the choice of some insurance company or HMO!

Plus, there'd be all these monkeys around. That would be kinda cool :D

[Blue_Chill]

58. lol!

that was classic

[Terwilliger]

11. I would hope it would recognize the shift and embrace it

but that's just coming from a starry-eyed Democrat :eyes:

If Kucinich could really inspire a new spirit in the country, there's no reason that wouldn't translate into a much more co-operative spirit in the Congress, which the party would respond to favorably.

If not, then Dennis would have to be fighting Republicans to stick to his principles, and Dems would have to choose up sides because the fight is ON!

OnEdit: :eyes:

[cosmicdot]

12. Happy Days are Here Again

we'd be closer to changing that tide holding us back as a people, nation, society -- it's been such a drag on us these last 3 decades

even within this thread we'll find the negative, antagonistic, cynical energy which is a strong current to turn positive

we had been making such great socio-economic progress

shucking that good ol'boy grip --- time to resume work

inspiration is so much better than repression

ask not what your country can do for you

it's not too late to seek a newer world

one person can make a difference

positive influences

imagine the power of the positive


Dear God, we need back the soul we lost in June 1968.

[Starpass]

13. I think the Dem party would give new meaning to "shock & awe"

they would stand there speechless and there would be high level Democratic meetings throughout the nation billed as the "what the fuck do we do now" meetings!!! Unfortunately, Dennis will never get that far; but god it would be fun to sit back and watch the anarchy in the ranks!!!!

[chadm]

14. Worse case scenario...

it would be no different than, say, if a Republican like Kerry were President. In other words, you're right that the progressive agenda may not have full support, but it wouldn't anyway so what is lost?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Isome]

16. party of big government, pacifism, and anti-business

Would you allow them to mischaracterize the party without a fight?

It would be up to us to refute those rethuglican-originated labels. Government grows under the GOP, not the Democrats. Under Clinton (as well as other past Dem presidents), the numbers, according to Paul Krugman, show that businesses fared better than under the GOP. As for pacifism: ask the accuser to pinpoint events or Democratic policies that constitute pacifism. After they stop stuttering, stammering and dissembling, it'll be easy to enlighten them with the truth.

[MaverickX]

24. yeah but Clinton's policies

Fought the big government stereotype. Kucinich's policies embrace big government.

[Isome]

36. Do point out ...

exactly how Kucinich's proposed policies would increase government more than the current administration's has already. Government payroll is already proven to increase under GOP administrations; it's nonsensical to allow their distortions to dictate your choices.

[no name no slogan]

26. In other words, "less democratic"

I already support making our nomination process more like the GOPs, where its proportional(sic). The winner of a state's primary should get all of that state's delegates

In other words, "less democratic" and representative of the will of the people.

If that's the case, can we safely assume you like the current Electoral College, too? After all, it also uses a "winner take all" process to award the state electors to candidates. Is that really what you want the our party to become?

Oh wait, too late, we're already there :(

[MaverickX]

39. comparing the nomination process....

To the actual election is apples to oranges because one involves a party picking who it wants to run and the other involves people electing their government. If you opposed the Presidential election being winner take all we'd need to have more than one President. The Electoral college really has nothing to do with winner take all, since the winner of the popular vote doesn't necessarily win.

[Mairead]

29. "winner should get all"

That's not 'proportionate', that's 'winner take all', which is part of the reason Coup2000 succeeded.

[MaverickX]

40. not really...

Giving state legislators a vote in who becomes President did that.

[Tinoire]

46. Oh right!

Let's just keep apologizing for and supporting this sort of crime

[MaverickX]

49. oh god..

Antiwar.com is an insane Libertarian website. I trust nothing that comes from that website.

[Tinoire]

53. Now that you've attacked the web-site carrying the story

maybe you should take the time to check the author and most of all the facts rather than burying your head in the sand :shrug:

[DisgustipatedinCA]

60. Credibility? Surely you jest

You started your very own thread saying that Howard Dean supports terrorism.

I think you're uniquely unqualified to speak of credibility.

[TroubleMan]

73. What the fuck are you saying???

MaverickX, you gotta be a freeper. Every time I see you post, it seems you've got your words directly from KKKarl Rove's talking points.

The USA shouldn't be about pacifism??? What the fuck are you smoking!!! You sound like a fucking fascist.

The definition of facism is big business interests and government interests coinciding and ruling the people, mixed with rampant nationalism and warlike behavior.

We need to be for pacifism and anti big-business - that is a true PRO-DEMOCRACY stance. If you look at our founding fathers, corporations were only allowed in very limited means. We need to go back to that. A bunch of fat cats with thick pockets bought their way out of that law, and now it's basically screwed our country.

DK SHOULD be the Democratic nominee....because our party is fucked up and filled with a bunch of pussies like you, he probably won't be.

[Nederland]

17. The economy would plummet even worse than now

If Kucinich were to win the Dem nomination, what would that do to the Dem Party? Dennis K says he'd immediately drop NAFTA and the WTO if he were to become President.

If Kucinich were to win and pulled out of NAFTA and the WTO, the 14% of the US economy that depends on imports and trade would dry up and the prices of everything in Walmart would triple. In short, it would be a disaster. Lucky for us DK doesn't have a chance.

[uptohere]

20. now hold on a minute...

... the question would be only if he got the nomination, not actually won. Having said that, and bearing in mind that the market prefers certainty over the unknown, the market would rally in the certain knowledge that Bush is a shoe in to win.

But the real question also what what would happen to the party, not the market. They party would either see the largest stampeed out in history forming a... oh somthing like REAL Democratic party to go to or just disolve altogether.

[Nederland]

21. Sorry

Missed the nomination part. I agree with your post though...

[uptohere]

25. as I agree with your assessment

n/t

[no name no slogan]

32. No, it would go back to bilateral trade agreements

Getting rid of NAFTA and the WTO doesn't mean getting rid of all foreign trade; all it means is that we'd go back to having bilateral trade agreements with each country, like we had for the first 200+ years of our country's existence.

Kucinich has even said as much in the debates when the question is about free trade vs. fair trade. Have you seen the debates?

There's a big difference between FAIR TRADE and economic isolationism.

[Nederland]

38. The bottom line

Yes, I have seen the debates, and I have to stick by what I said: the Kucinich plan would kill trade. Sure, perhaps its an over statement to say "kill"--maybe "drastically reduce" is closer to it. Kucinich likes to call it "fair" trade while glossing over the fact that the two sides in a bilateral trade agreement have radically different views on what "fair" means. For example, the US and Europe seems to think that its "fair" to give over 300 billion dollars a year in agricultural subsidies to their farmers. Needless to say, the middle and poorer countries of the world don't view that as "fair"--300 billion dollars is a larger number than their entire GDP's combined.

If Kucinich thinks that he can renegotiate bilateral agreements with other countries in a way that will make it even for the US he is dreaming. The US already has it better than it should. The poor countries of the world got screwed in the last GATT round when they agreed to roll back their tariffs in exchange for a promise that the the first world would do the same in the next round. Meanwhile, the "next round" has been in talks for the last eight years and next to no progress has been made. If Kucinich were to pull the US out of the WTO and NAFTA we would see a swift return to the protectionist policies of the past and a drastic reduction in trade as a result.

[MaverickX]

42. Kucinich can't just repeal NAFTA

He'd need congressional approval. If Kucinich wants to repeal NAFTA surely this means he'd like to increase tariffs on Mexican and Canadian imports so of course he's a protectionist.

[wheresthemind]

51. your wrong...

He could pull our of it just like Bush pulled out of our treaty with Russia.


Dennis is a smart man... He wouldn't do something as drastic as pulling out of NAFTA and the WTO without a plan to go into place after the 6 or so months it takes them to be cancelled.

[uptohere]

52. I thought he said he would do it the first day on the job

doesn't sound all that smart to me...

[Mairead]

69. He'd start the 6-month clock running the first day

[uptohere]

70. I didn't hear it that way, got a link ?

and first day or 6th month are equally silly

[wheresthemind]

72. ....er

a president can withdraw, but that doesn't mean it ends immediately.

You give your six month notice so it ends in 6 months... So yes he would be canceling them the first day, but then they would not cease to exist until 6 months later.

[Mairead]

80. what are you talking about?

The process for getting out is to give a 6-months notice. You already know he says he'd do it the first day. So what piece are you missing?

[uptohere]

88. he never said he was planning on giving notice, just doing it

and that would mean effectively immediately.

Unless I missed something. Got a link ?

[Mairead]

89. For pity's sake!

Find where he says anything to the effect of he'll pull the plug on Monday and it'll be shut down on Tuesday.


This is what he says:
Among the first actions of a Kucinich Administration will be withdrawal from NAFTA and the WTO—to be replaced by fair trade agreements. {from his 10-major-issues list}

[MaverickX]

56. Bush didnt pull out of a treaty with Russia

The Soviet Union didn't exist any more.

[charlie]

75. Tell that to Bush

He gave Moscow 6 months notice before withdrawing from the ABM treaty.

[diamondsoul]

54. He's never mentioned tarriffs in any discussion of trade.

His plan is to eliminate NAFTA and the WTO aqnd start fresh with trade agreements that guarantee workers rights and environmental protections. And YES the President CAN withdraw from NAFTA and the WTO unilaterally.

No, Congressman Kucinich is not a "protectionist" in the sense that you're referring to. He's never once suggested tarriffs on Cnanadian or Mexican imports, purely that requirements be negotiated that ensure workers rights and environmental protections. Canada is not likely to refuse those standards a,d Mexico is likely to request some latitude to implement the needed upgrades. Difference, HUGE difference.

[MaverickX]

61. its implied..

All NAFTA did was lower tariffs. Of course Kucinich wants to eliminate NAFTA for this reason.

[charlie]

65. I wouldn't call NAFTA's Chapter Eleven

provision merely lowering tariffs.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. we'd all vote for him and any politician that didn't support him

would get a challenge in his/her next primary. That goes no matter who is nominated.

[paulk]

22. we could all go ice skating

in hell...

[DrGonzoLives]

23. It would certainly shake things up

I think he would encounter fierce resistance within the party to some of his ideas (most of which I personally agree with).

[kwolf68]

27. Well

We would usher in a new America based on pure justice, empathy and compassion...

We would begin a new world where the table includes that without voice or power besides those with wealth and access...

We would truly begin to make footprints in the dirt leading humanity FORWARD...

We would forge in a direction where death and destruction isn't what rests in our hearts and minds, but life and construction...

We would celebrate and put our flag on our cars to celebrate the fact we have cured cancer, eliminated poverty in America, fed the hungry...

We would educate, inspire and liberate our inner city children who presently have little hope...

We would rebuild our great cities and bring people back to them...

We would inspire small business to become the big business again...

We would give power to people all across the globe and not just globalnational corporations...

Money would not buy influence, ideas would...

We would lead the world with vision and voice and not guns and bombs...

We would be a nation we could truly celebrate with real convictions and not placid and fraudulant convictions...

[Mairead]

31. You left out one

'The crypto-Republicans at DU would be even more frantic and bitter in their doomsaying'

[kayell]

33. Thank you

this thread was beginning to make me despair for the future of the Democratic party. We pride ourselves here at DU so much on being real democrats, most of us seem to be committed to liberal ideals, yet there is always a hail storm of disdain for Kucinich, even though many here agree with virtually all his goals. If even DUers can't support this kind of program, which would put us more level with the benefits that most other industrialized nations provide for their people, what hope is there for our party?

Yours is a voice of hope and reason.

[kwolf68]

35. Your welcome

While Dennis may be considered esoteric, I fully believe that he is -in the very least- planting the seeds of what will become the Democratic Party.

I truly believe that while the Democratic Party searches for its soul, the blueprint rests in this Ohio Congressman's heart. At some point this party-fed up with oligarchic corruption- will toss off the shackles of the mental slavery we perpetuate ourselves under in fear of verbal reprisals by right-wing hustlers. We will toss off the bondage in our mind and stand up for what the hell we stood up for in every crevice of our nation’s past.

It wasn’t people like George W. Bush who made this nation great. It was people like Dennis Kucinich. Bush represent Carnegie and Morgan. Kucinich represents the populists fighting against this enslavement our our workers, our children, black people, women, the environment, nature, anything and everything that could be exploited, degraded, used and abused so that one entity (given superficial powers by a corrupt Supreme Court) could achieve massive wealth.

Dennis Kucinich doesn’t represent the best hope for the future of this party, he represents the only hope.

[kwolf68]

37. BTW-

Even though I am/was/is a Kerry supporter, I have decided that if I don't go with my convictions then I'm nothing. Instead of standing on the sidelines and giving you DK supporters pep talks and praise about your stands, I'm going to be with you.

Next Friday I will send Dennis a little help. It will be meagher, but it will be my committment to him. Even if he loses I will know I went down with the best man.

Have a great weekend and keep fighting the good fight.

[Tinoire]

45. We used to be

mustn't confuse the rabble rousers with old progressives ;)

[LWolf]

74. Yes.

<We wouldn't want that, would we? Oh, right. We would. Well, we all believe that the issues we believe in are impossible to achieve, right? Oh, that's wrong. That's why we want to beat Bush. I forgot.>

If Dennis is elected, progressives have an opportunity to work from within the system we all say we support...democracy...to bring about the changes we wish to see in our country's policies, programs, and direction.

[buddhamama]

30. the party would implode

Kucinich would become Nader of the DEM party.

[Perky]

48. I could not agree more

The DLC would emerge ostensibly as a sepearte entity and put up a new Centrist independent campaign ---Lieberman-Breaux?

[IndianaGreen]

34. The DLC would form the Democrats for Bush committee

Millions of disenfranchised workers would swell the ranks of the Democratic Party.

America will hear a real debate between two sets of values. One which says that greed is good, and that whatever we lust after we can take (by force of arms if need be), the other that says that we are all members of the family of nations and that we have to work together in order to manage the planet's disminishing resources and fragile environment.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MaverickX]

41. If Kucinich thinks..

He can unilaterally get rid of NAFTA why aren't the DU leftists calling him a fascist :)

[diamondsoul]

55. Um...well maybe

because he CAN as President? That doesn't make him a fascist. If eh did it for personal gain and no concern for the common man/woman/family THEN he'd be a fascist. Since that's not the case, he's just a guy willing to go the full mile instead of playing games with people's lives and futures.

[MaverickX]

62. I disagree

Fascists can have the best of intentions.

[IndianaGreen]

66. Tell that to Hitler and Mussolini!

Fascists can have the best of intentions.

I suppose the Jews were being sent on vacation, as Fascist Italian Prime Minister Silvo Berlusconi said a couple of days ago.

:eyes:

[diamondsoul]

84. Name one who did.

Never seen it, never heard it, and seriously doubt you can pull it off.

Kucinich actually knows what the average working man or woman are going through and intends to make things better for all of us. What's your beef with that?

NAFTA? The WTO? Yeah, trade will drop for a bit, maybe. It isn't going to suddenly stop altogether, despite the ludicrous doomspeak to the contrary. The really pathetic part about opposing Kucinihc's trade position is that he's adocating what we KNOW works. You want to change the way people treat their workers, you hit'em in the wallet. Now all of a sudden people hate this idea even though we survived with it just fine for 200+ years. We kept it for so long because IT WORKS!

All you folk who support NAFTA and WTO, I have a challenge. You bring me figures for how many human lives have been improved under thos agreements and how many lives have suffered, show me NAFTA and the WTO have done the good they are supposed to have done, and maybe I'll appeal to my candidate on that basis. If you can't do it, I'm going to stand behind him because obviously he'll be proven right. Prove to me the rich haven't gotten richer and the poor haven't consistantly suffered more under these agreements, and I'll consider the evidence.

[JohnKleeb]

85. Kucinich in a way still lives a relatively humble life I am told

Hes a humble man that Dennis its one of the reasons I like him.

[Terwilliger]

57. because you're the fascist

what's your opinion on homosexuality again?

[TroubleMan]

76. MaverickX - You are a nut job

Fascism would be pro-NAFTA, you dumbass. Fascism is PRO BIG BUSINESS, and so is NAFTA.

You're just talking out of your ass now. Your arguments have no basis in fact, so please

SHUT THE FUCK UP until you have some basis in fact.

[leftofthedial]

50. It would be a renaissance of the party

and its ideals

[Blue_Chill]

59. What would happen?

DK would run against Bush, he would lose in a landslide and the Dem's would go further right because the DLC will point and say "see this insane left wing nonsense doesn't work!"

It would be lose lose for all involved.

[no name no slogan]

63. Reminds me of Wellstone in 1990

That's exactly how Wellstone ran his 1990 campaign. He didn't waffle, flip-flop or head for that yellow line in the middle of the road-- he spoke the truth, spoke of his convictions, and didn't pander to the voters.

And you know what? WELLSTONE WON. In 1996, his opponent tried to paint him as "ultraliberal Paul Wellstone", and spent a lot of his personal fortune. Do you know what happened then? WELLSTONE WON AGAIN, BY A BIGGER MARGIN THAN 1990!

Who says we have to play by their rules? If we do, we just end up losing.

[Blue_Chill]

67. Wellstone didn't run for President

For Pres you have to convince those in the middle that you are better then the other guy. You can't just animate your base like you can in other elected offices.

[Mairead]

68. I love to read threads like this that reveal how empty

the opposition to Dennis is. His opponents have nothing meaningful to say, so they're reduced to junior-high taunts. That really is impoverished! The vapidness of their opposition suggests that, to win, we need do nothing more than get Dennis's voice heard.

When I think about it, I realise that he's so strong because he's just putting out the truth. He doesn't have to worry about treading on his own tongue, or try out his message on focus groups first. Because he's only saying what he truly represents, he can just say it, and it naturally comes out right. That's very powerful, and very compelling to his listeners. They hear the truth in his voice. They see the truth in his eyes. And they reflect that truth to others.

I think Tinoire's right--if we put Dennis in office, there's going to be a lot of DINOs lurching away into the GOP swamps, trying to delay the end of their hegemony.

[whirlygigspin]

78. kucinich may have a chance

if the Leiberman/Likud wack jobs sink Dean.

Dean supporters would have to turn to an alternate
candidate, and I think they would be too pissed
at the Hallelujia chorus/aipac controlled wack jobs
in DC to support any of them.

[Mairead]

81. DK does indeed have a fine chance

and I wouldn't worry about the Lieberman/Likud nutters knocking Dean off. Too many people know how bankrupt those guys are -- Dean's safe from them.

[LWolf]

82. A renaissance:

rebirth, revival, vigorous constructive, productive activity.

[JohnKleeb]

83. good words

An American Renaissance :) I like the sound of that.

[Karmadillo]

86. Who knows?

If Kucinich wins the nomination, he'll have access to a boatload of money. Though one would hardly expect the "liberal media" to give him evenhanded treatment, he'd have the means to lift the lid of de facto censorship regarding the issues of single payer health care, the deprivations of NAFTA and the WTO, the policies underlying our invasion of Iraq, and a host of other progressive issues. Who knows how Middle America would react? They might actually decide to embrace a candidate who's fighting for them.

And, of some significane, there'd be debates. Does anyone really think Bush would demolish Kucinich, especially when Bush will be defending a failed economy and a disastrous war of oil acquisition?

And if the centrist Democrats abandoned the Party, they'd simply show the depths of their hypocrisy. For years, progressive concerns have been ignored by centrist Democrats even though it's close to impossible for Democrats to win national elections without progressive support (take away progressive Democratic support for Gore, and he loses both the popular vote and the electoral vote without any need for five members of the Supreme Court to commit their act of treason). If we're all members of the same Party, surely it's not OK for centrists to repay us for our support by abandoning us when our candidate wins the nomination. And if they do, it lets progressives know they'll either have to successfully remake the Democratic Party in their own image or, if they fail, have the courage to start their own.

[JohnKleeb]

87. DK would demolish Bush big time

Its just so unfortunate that hes seldomly mentioned. Yea I know he hasnt raised much money yet but you know he has been speaking out right. I dont get it I just dont get Karma. I am very happy to support him. Great man and would make a terrific president.