Genetically modified food or birth control in terms of the population?

[thermodynamic]

http://whalonlab.msu.edu/Student_Webpages/Genetically_MOdified/GMOSFOREAL/BENEFITSPAGE-WEB.htm

That article supports GM, for what it's worth. But I'd disagree. The fields are overworked as they are and they'll wear out in time. Many fertilizers used just happen to be petrochemical. That's right, made out of a fossil fuel that'll run dry within 2 generations.

http://www.geocities.com/gm_crops/questions.html (scroll to disadvantages).

Have to agree here: ( except: )


Most food manafacturers are unable (or unwilling to provide information on whether or not their products contain GM ingrediants. This means you rarely know what you are eating.
GM crops can contaminate other crops simply by pollen being blown by wind from one field to another.
World starvation has more to do with wealth distribution rather thatn the inadequate production of foods.
Sometimes GM crops have allergenic effects.
Loss of nutritional value.
Reduction of the efficiency of antibiotics.
New viruses could evolve from the mass production of GM crops.
The more that gene technology is used, the worse the environment will become.
Pests may develop resistance to GM crops that have been designed to kill them.
Humans do not have the right to genetically alter nature for their own convienience and profit.
GM crops produce religious complications.
Vegetarians and Vegans may find it offensive to put animal genes into plants.
GM crops may cause harm to the wealth and welfare of animals.
Some countries will not be able to afford GM foods.
GM crops may produce ecological side effects (Monarch butterfiles).
Too much money spent on Gene Technology could have been spent on other things.
No assurances of public liability for Farmers of GM crops.


So, I'm all up for birth control. Chopping nads, free condoms, abstinance before marriage, NOTHING should be left off the proverbial table.

Also consider the quality of life we will be leaving for future generations. With the upcoming scarcity of oil, our disturbing dependance of oil for everything we do, our economy that's going down the toilet (which will also plummet to -10,000 as fears about oil depletion will shatter it alone...)

I'm not having any kids. I'm not doing it for them. Not until we straighten this sad society out. Then I'll reconsider.

</rant>

[Maple]

1. Well that's pretty silly

when was there ever a good time to have kids?

But if everyone thought like you, humanity would have died out long ago.

It's just another excuse.

[thermodynamic]

2. That's why everyone thinks differently!

:D

Dunno, really. I wonder about humanity itself at times.

And what excuse? If I were to create a child, it would be worse off than to point a gun at a child's head and pull the trigger. A quick death is universally more appealing than a slow and lingering one.

But I agree, it is all silly in the end.

Go ahead, keep on breeding. Just don't blame me when the time comes.

[Maple]

4. Be serious

what about having a child during WWII? Or WWI? Or the Depression?

There is never a perfect time...never was, never will be.

There is no 'time coming'

In the 60s, we were told not to have kids, because we'd all be dead by the 80s. LOL

But people being selfish, and refusing to carry on humanity isn't going to solve anything either.

You'll just have more money to spend on yourself.

Which is kinda your direction isn't it?

[arcane1]

6. the population cannot just increase uncontrolably year after year

without there being some negative consequences, not just food, but space, water, etc..

I don't think anyone is suggesting that nobody should ever have children, I'm not sure what your point is

[Maple]

7. It's not

the figures show massive underpopulation coming.

[thermodynamic]

10. Not this time! Here's the answer you weren't expecting:

Nobody expects wars - though under Bush* they're more certain. But that's not why I'm an advocate of population control.

Dinosaurs died overnight because what they needed to survive came to an abrupt halt.

Human civilization and progress will do the same thing in 40 years unless we do something NOW. Humanity may survive, but mostly those in rural areas who are not as dependent on our technologies as we are. But even the survivors will have to pay the price for the sloth and greed of Bush* and his oil buddies who refuse to let progress save the rest of our hides.

We need to fix the problem, not massage the symptom. The symptom will never go away until the problem gets addressed. Humanity has a continual problem with this concept; they always go after symptoms but ignore problems. Hell, in Minnesota - what's the answer to the state's budget problem? Cut all the social programs, particularly health care. The real problem is health care, which we know is spiraling out of control - and mostly for the selfish insurance companies and lawyers and the handful of doctors who damn well shouldn't be practicing at all.

All people are selfish. It just depends on your point of view. But I am not one of them! You don't know me. How I live. How people treated me as a kid. How I grew up. How I survive. I am lonely, I am alone.

I feel uncomfortable around children. My own personality is not unlike that of a child either. I know I would make a terrible parent. I can barely tolerate my pet parrot given my numerous emotional disorders, my parrot who is not unlike a constant 2 year old child either.

I'm terrified that if I did try to raise a child, I might actually hurt the child on accident, or worse - deliberately. There's no fucking way I'm going to take that chance. FOR the benefit of the child, not any bullshit "selfishness" on my part!!! You want to call me childish because I don't live to your set of standards? Then you're as narrow-minded as any number of republicans - who really ARE selfish!

I am a man smart enough to know I am foolish. I know my direction in life and where it's going to end. I wish it would never end, but that's life. It will end someday. :-( Pretty prophetic for someone only 31 years old.

Extinct is forever. If human beings want to challenge extinction, then they'd better start considering renewable energy sources and dump this capitalist profiteering shit amongst any other number of things. Yes, I may be squawking "The sky is falling!" but we know I'm inevitably correct.

You want selfish? Ask the energy industry! They stand the most to lose from resources that would benefit society and they know that and they're not going to budge. Meanwhile, the people just gripe as to why gas prices are so high. You want selfish? Look at the republicans who'll gut social programs to benefit the top 1% and do it in the name of helping society. :spit on them: THEY are the selfish ones who don't care about society.

You want selfish? Go to those big american corporations who see fit to send good American jobs overseas because it costs less money overseas to hire people and to get tax breaks in countries who don't have workers' protections. If that doesn't define selfishness and un-American behavior, then what does?!

Yeah, in my own way I do give a fuck about society, moreso than many - and you still want to call ME selfish? I help out humanity the best I can via donating to political causes and supporting tax increases for education and other valuable things. But I do my bit for our country on my own damn terms! NOT YOURS OR ANYONE ELSE'S!!

I know me more than you do, so open your mind and figure me out. Or try, I dare you. :-)

[Maple]

13. Like I said

if you want to be selfish, that's your choice.

But it has nothing to do with GM food, or the situation in the world or anything else other than your own wishes.

[thermodynamic]

17. Well, if you're not even going to bother reading...

But you're right, I did stray from the point.

(can't say it, it's too mean.)

[Maple]

18. I did read it

Your excuses are simply irrelevant.

[thermodynamic]

31. And I've been reading others' messages and your replies to them

You are clearly reading NOTHING or aren't understanding what is being said.

Can you understand what other people have to say? Do you open your mind to try to understand their point of view, even though for you, your point of view works best?

You don't, do you?

Don't answer the following question - I won't believe you if you lie and if you did tell the truth I'd probably get very cross:

The last time there was a tax levy for school districts on the ballot box, did you support it or did you check "No"?

I'm not rich, I don't hoarde money for myself, I don't mind paying taxes when the money goes to help people. And yet you call me selfish just because I refuse to bring about a child into this world? And like I said (that you didn't read or understand), there's more to being selfless than just bringing up a child. And in case you hadn't noticed, plenty of people who do create and raise children are selfish. Truly selfish. Children whose lives will never be lived to full potential. And because of psychological conditions I will not raise children. That does not make me selfish, that makes me RESPONSIBLE!! And that is something I am proud to be in this case!!!!!!!!!

[Maple]

33. I understand it just fine

I simply disagree with your opinion on GE food, and say that you are using it as an excuse not to have children.

More money for YOU to spend on toys after all.

[Ripley]

11. That is really rude. To say people without kids are selfish.

I can make an excellent case about how people with chidren are extremely more selfish than I.

But I won't.

[Maple]

14. Good

because you have no case.

All the thousands of people that came before you went through a lot so that you would be here, and have a better life than they did.

They passed on the torch...you just decided you couldn't be bothered.

Pfft.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

23. Why would I need to know you?

So far all I know about you is that you are given to extravagant statements, with no back up.

I didn't make it personal. I simply said the idea that you should stop having children because the world is going to hell in a handbasket over GM food is silly.

The world has faced much worse than that....no food at all for example...and people still kept going.

GM food is hardly an excuse to just give up.

[dsc]

20. Newsflash

Did you get a check from Bush, those of us with no kids didn't? Thus we are subsidizing you. Do you take advantage of family and medical leave for your kids? If so we are doing your work. Do you get time off for parent teacher conferences, take holidays off while childless people work them? Again, your lifestyle being subsidized by childless people. We all pay for schools that we don't directly use. To then be called selfish for the trouble to be blunt pisses the hell out of me. BTW if your kids are on your work's insurance you are also getting more benefits than your childless counter part.

[Maple]

25. Ohhh poor you

Not only do those things not apply to me, but elderly people pay for things that only you can enjoy.

We all chip in, and we all benefit in different ways.

And had others not done it earlier, you wouldn't be here to complain.

[dsc]

35. BTW I am 35

and can't have kids (I am a gay male) without an expensive effort which would pretty well define selfishness (surrogate mother). Of course like so many I am parent worship my child people that thought never even occured to you.

On edit I also it should be noted support the policies that I was talking about save the tax cut.

[Maple]

37. Then that has nothing whatever

to do with GM food, or the current political situation does it?

[dsc]

38. I never said it did

but I also didn't call people selfish for not having kids like you did. Again I make your lifestyle possible so quit laying the selfish crap at my feet.

[Maple]

39. The topic here is about

how GM foods make it impossible for right thinking people to have children.

And people that use such things as an excuse not to have children are indeed selfish.

And I make my lifestyle possible. Me. Myself and I. Not you.

[dsc]

40. No you didn't

Sorry but that is false. Your taxes are lower and your benefits are higher in part to my taxes being higher and my benefits being lower. Under the current tax laws I pay more in income taxes on about 20k than a family of 4 does on well over 50k. I don't mean rate here but actually dollars. That is a direct subsidy which makes your life possible. I also pay the same flat rate account charge for every utility that a family of 4 does. My rent is way more than 1/4 of a family of fours. Plus if they own their house I pay for their morgage deduction. In many ways little and big single, childless people subisidize you and make your life possible

[Maple]

41. Your pity-party notwithstanding....

You get benefits in other ways that people with children make possible.

They have long made up the bulk of the population, and paid for your water, your roads, your street lights, your education and the system in general.

And all those who came before you built your country, and protected it.

You benefit from generations of people who sacrificed for others...you and their own children, and all future generations.

Now it's your turn.

[dsc]

42. again

I am not complaining but I do get pissed when I get called selfish for BEING UNABLE TO HAVE CHILDREN which is just what you did. The fact is you do get subsidized big time by people like me. And really big time by people who are better paid than I am but in the same situation. Yes, I do benefit from roads, etc. But guess what. I also pay for those and in many places just as much as one person as a family does. Here road taxes are flat rate per car. The kind of car is irrelevant.

[Maple]

43. Excuse me?

I said people were being selfish when they flatly refused to have children, and then blamed it on something nonsensical...like GM foods.

No, I don't get subsidized by people like you.

In general, we all help each other.

You are the end product of thousands of years of people who struggled, and sacrificed and built and suffered and even died so you could live the way you do.

So you pay taxes...big woo.

We all pay taxes. And it will help generations neither of us will see.

Cry me a river.

[dsc]

44. Read post 14

which you wrote again. It is in response to post 11. You called the person who wrote 11 selfish for not having kids (that person said not one word as to why). So again you did call anyone who didn't have kids selfish. That person said nothing about GM foods, ozone, Bush, or anything else.

[Maple]

45. This is not a thread

about people in general not having children. It's a thread about people refusing to have them, and blaming it on something idiotic like GM foods. People read that right up front.

So if they state they are refusing to have children, you have to assume....unless they state otherwise...that they are refusing for just such a political reason.

That is indeed selfish, and I said so.

And if they cannot have children biologically...well there is a whole world of children out there who need parents.

Lend a hand.

[dsc]

48. Try again

That person said no such thing and you know it. You are one of those "I am a parent and you aren't" type people. You are under the impression that you are entitled to special treatment since you have kids. That sense of entitlement runs through your posts.

[Maple]

49. That is the topic of this entire thread

a topic you appear to have forgotten, as you flounder about trying to find some reason to claim you're being hard done by.

I'm not entitled to anything...I earned what I have. And I have also contributed to the continuation and betterment of the human race.

If you worked half as hard at doing the same thing as you do at feeling sorry for yourself, and looking for excuses, you'd be much better off.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

52. If you can't keep up your end of an argument

and indeed, you've long since wandered off the topic, don't blame me for it.

And when you have a PhD, and a great deal more money than you're whining over, then you can talk.

Until then, this has, as I said, nothing whatever to do with GM food.

[thermodynamic]

26. Thank you!

I hope he reads what you've had to say.

[Maple]

30. I read it all

It is still not Armageddon, and still no excuse not to have children.

And I'm female.

[thermodynamic]

34. And I'm a male

Wanna get together? :*

</sarcasm>

Semi-seriously. Our lovechild could be the saviour for the human race.

Utterly-seriously. Re-read my comments and the bit where I call myself responsible because I know my limitations and I would not be a suitable parent. Other people have told me that while I'm a nice guy, I wouldn't make a good parent. And I will not let jocular ego try to prove them wrong because, for God's sake, a child is involved. And I will not exploit children. (OMG, how selfless of me!!!!!)

[Maple]

36. If you think you shouldn't have children

because you're not parenting material...then that's at least honest.

It's just not because of GM food. Or a world crisis. Or Dubya.

Or anything else.

[thermodynamic]

22. You just don't get it, do you?

You haven't read a syllable of what I've said and you still shovel out the same old bullplop about "they passed on the torch". Well buddy, there ain't gonna be no torch if we keep doing the same things repeatedly. And I don't want to be responsible for bringing a life into this society until I change it into a way that is more civil and self-sustaining. As it stands, America has 40 years left.

And with people like you in it, I'm tempted to ask the fates to "bring it on". Just for YOUR benefit, how's that for selflessness?!

Brutally and heartlessly bashing other people who don't happen to agree with your mindset or who have lived a live different to your own will get you nowhere, especially when they try to explain their situations to you.

And it has nothing to do with "more money for myself". You don't even know the half of it. Not even the third of it... I am by no means wealthy.

I will say this: If I gave the impression that nobody should have children because of how our country is currently being (mis)handled, I readily apologize. I did to you what you are doing to me, I see that now. Though is it so wrong for me to speak my opinion? Are you denying me the right to say my opinion with your bashing and then not listing when I try to explain WHY I feel that way? You're far more selfish and insensitive than even I could ever dream to be if that is the case.

But the joke's over, son.

[Maple]

27. The world is better educated

better fed, and healthier than it has been in all of history.

You have a better richer life than kings and queens in history ever did.

Nobody is crying for the 'hard time' you think you're having.

PS...I am neither your son nor your buddy.

If you choose not to have children, at least be honest with yourself about the reasons. Don't use the excuse of only '40' years left, or some other such twaddle. Science is not your whipping boy for doing nothing to improve the human race.

[bicentennial_baby]

29. I'll be honest

I'm not having kids because:

A) I don't like them

B) I'm selfish

Besides, my sister's having enough for both of us!

[Maple]

32. Okay....then you're honest

about it.

[undergroundpanther]

61. maple

Yoo many people have kids for selfish reasons

[DemBones DemBones]

3. Well, that's pretty rude, to call someone's sincere opinion "silly." n/t

*

[Maple]

5. You call Bush's sincere opinion

worse than that all the time.

[DUreader]

8. You really think W* ever had a sincere opinion?

Ever?

[Maple]

15. That's your political

opinion.

I'm sure Dubya thinks he's right.

[twilight]

9. rant continued

I spent a good part of my day going through the kitchen getting rid of/throwing out all the GM'd food I found that I did not know was 'on the list'. This list was posted on this forum a couple of weeks ago and wow, what a nightmare!!!! :grr: I hate throwing out anything, especially food!

It seems even Hershey bars and Toblerone are GM'd now!

Not suprisingly, 'Tombstone Pizza' is appropriately GM'd. :p

What can we do about this? I don't want this food. I have serious health problems! Why are we not being informed? As usual, must go via the backdoor to find out the TRUTH!

Here is the link:

http://www.truefoodnow.org/gmo_facts/product_list/pf-list.html

If you want to print it out and take it with you to the grocery store, it is 65 pages long and I bet this isn't even 1/10th of the REAL list!

:grr:

[Maple]

12. Every item in your kitchen

is GM. So you've just wasted a lot of food for nothing.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

28. If you were actually informed on the subject

you'd be aware that nothing you buy...'organic' or not (which means it's grown in shit) is without genetic modification.

You've eaten GM food all your life. You will always do so, no matter where you buy it.

[Aaron]

46. This should be interesting - Why will all food always be GM?

Please don't bother replying if you're going to suggest that traditional practices of natural selection by farmers are the same as today's Genetic Modification. That dog won't hunt.

[Maple]

47. I'm sorry

but that dog...be it poodle or chihuahua or great dane...from a dingo...will indeed hunt. It's been bred to in fact.

We've been eagerly genetically modifying everything we could lay our hands on since day one. Ourselves included.

It's just now we know what we're doing. Before it was all done by guesswork, and mistakes.

The mistakes were generally killed.

THIS is not the time to get indignant about it all. You are several thousand years too late.

Ain't nothin' 'natural' about any of it.

'Natural' tends to kill people.

[Aaron]

53. Muddied the waters. I should've expected that.

Anyway I only read the first line or so. I told you that dog you're working with won't hunt, never has never will. Selecting among what we have is one thing, recombination in labs is another. We didn't use genetic labs and patented genomes before so it can't be the same thing, perhaps similar, but not the same. Maybe you ought to pitch seeds for Monsanto - Maybe you already do.

[Maple]

54. I'm sorry again, but it will

No one 'selected' anything. It was neither luck, nor happenstance.

Plants and animals were deliberately modified, and the mistakes killed off.

In farmyards and in labs I'm afraid.

Maybe you just aren't aware that everything you eat and drink is modified. Has been for centuries.

[Aaron]

55. Read that one. I want my 2 seconds back. Read up on how stuff works.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question148.htm

We modified by natural selection. Now things are modified in genetic labs. That's how stuff works. Maybe you just aren't aware that that is how stuff works.

What I eat has been and continues to be developed through natural selection. Not developed in a genetic lab by whitecoat scientists. You can't prove otherwise.

[Maple]

56. LOL

Oh well, if it says that on some kid's page, then it must be right, no?

Sorry, there is no 'natural selection' about it. Try forced breeding, artificial insemination, inline breeding, grafting, and yes, work in labs.

Perhaps you ought to google something other than 'science for dummies' and learn about animal husbandry, and plant mutations.

[Aaron]

57. Attack the source but offer no substantiation of your own argument?

Interesting.

[Maple]

58. I haven't attacked you at all

I said you should do some research before you insist you know how things are done just because you've seen a couple of paragraphs on one website. It's quite different than you imagine.

And I don't intend to do the research for you. I am aware of how it's done, and I have nothing to prove I'm afraid.

Simply insisting you're right will get you nowhere with me.

The topic here, btw, is refusing to have children because of GM food.

[Aaron]

59. Obfuscation. Where's that sleeping guy button?

Maybe not, maybe you're bad with English. The source was HowStuffWorks.com You commented on the source instead of refuting the information. I never said you attacked me. I'd be surprised if you did attack me outright, you're too slick for that.

That sleeping guy button? I've found it. So I'm putting this one to rest now.

[Maple]

60. I will repeat

the topic here is refusing to have children because of GM foods.

NOT GM foods themselves.

I am aware of how foods are GM, and how they have been for thousands of years.

You are not. You have looked at one simplified website.

I will also repeat, that just insisting you are right will get you nowhere with me.

You have long since lost your attempted unrelated argument.

So I think your decision to cut and run is a wise one.

Good night.

[thermodynamic]

16. Tombstone?!

EEK!! I love their vegetarian pizzas; they're the healthiest vegetarian pizzas on the market.

THANK YOU for the link! I truly appreciate it!

Upon reading it, I am amazed at how ubiquitous these products are... and also amusing how all the big-name corporations seem to be on the side of the genetically modified lot... :scared: Even MorningStar Farms soy products are GM! :wow:

Remember that old Rush Limburger song "Womb to the tomb" heckling Hillary Clinton in 1994? It should be re-written to discuss the consumption of genetically modified food - and then the song would be accurate while be entertaining.

[twilight]

24. yeah Tombstone!

No wonder they named it that - you eat enough of it you'll be hoping someone will carve one out for you!

Please note: Not all of the food around here is GM'd. I wasn't aware until I read this list and yes, I threw out a bunch of 1/2 opened/eaten bags of stuff that was 1/2 gone anyway.

I am not buying anymore of it. It's organic or imported from now on. I'll do my best to avoid this crap and yes, its in almost everything out there, but not every single thing YET!

Thank god the Europeans required that these food that we plan to export must be labeled! No one will buy them over there because they don't want these 'frankenfoods' either! Another waste of American $$$$! Stupid FOOLS!

At least they have the opportunity to know - an opportunity that WE THE PEOPLE seem to have been not questioned nor considered one bit!

Its expensive to buy stuff that isn't on the list. However, my health is more important to me and I could stand to lose a few lbs. anyway. Pretty soon there will be nothing to eat that is safe. I suppose many will just rot away from starvation.

Maybe that is the real plan? *yikes!!!*

:dem:

[unluckythirteen]

50. have you visited....

the VHEMT? kind of some stuff that actually makes you think.

www.vhemt.org

[twilight]

62. why are so many replies to Maple deleted?

:wtf: !!!!!

Pisses ME off!


:kick: