Pretty Definitive Accounts of Kerry and Vietnam Service (Pro and Con)

[seventhson]

I might quibble with the use of the term "two tours" which may or may not be technically accurate (and if it is NOT I'd appreciate a veteran of Nam telling me so because or straightening this out because it is ANOTHER twisting of the truth by Kerry IMHO)

But these two articles pretty much tell you everything you might like to know about Kerry in Vietnam and the surrounding circumstances.

Kerry volunteered for a "safe" in-country duty but the assignment was changed and became something he had not anticipated.

The stories look like he exhibited courage and daring -- but they may or may not be fluffed up. Who knows. I'd prefer eyewitness accounts and to see the records of the medals published.

The fact that the kid he killed to win the Silver star was a teenager in a loincloth (and was already wounded and downed by another of his crew)is kinda creepy. The killing of the civilian (an old man tending a water buffalo) and a child by Kerry or his crew is also disturbing (but many of my Vietnam Veteran friends and peers were on the frontlines where these horrors were commonplace - so I reserve judgment on that - I blmae the politiciansd not the soldiers in the field unless they were deliberately murdering innocents)

Anyway --- read these and then we can discuss this a little more intelligently okay gang?



http://www.boston.com/globe/specialreports/1996/oct/senate/jk106.htm



http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[morningtheft]

1. I only see where he

volunteered to fight for the country and also volunteered for action with OPperation Sea lords.

You can take what you want from these articles but it is annoying to see supposed democrats attacking his service record.

[Terwilliger]

4. what happens when Pukes start attacking it?

cross that bridge when you come to it?

[Patriot_Spear]

6. I'm sure they'll be thankful for the help of the GreenOP Partry then...

Nothing quite as tastey as eating our own, is there?

[seaglass]

12. Explain the GOP strategy for disparaging Kerry about his

service as compared to who? How exactly will the compare and contrast work?

[Patriot_Spear]

15. Oh, here's how they'll do it...

Karl Rove: "Look, here's even a Democrat named Terwillger who doubts Kerry's service..."

Tim Russert:" That's good enough for me, Karl..."

[Name removed]

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[Terwilliger]

24. are you serious?

Did you see the 2000 election? George "Twit" Bush skated on a cloud of complete idiocy while Al Gore had to be smarter than Einstein to get any credit.

Ya know...maybe things might be similar to last time...YA THINK???

[Name removed]

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[ieoeja]

35. They won't.

Have you forgotten how much they disparaged Gore's Vietnam experience? When Gore mentioned having gone up to Khe Sanh, they jumped all over him for "implying" he was near combat completely ignoring the fact that their boy never got within ten thousand miles of Vietnam.

Have you forgotten that Bill Clinton was pasted a draft dodger by a bunch of Republicans who were draft dodgers themselves? And despite the fact that Bill Clinton did not, in fact, avoid the draft as his deferrment was rejected, and he ended up facing the draft along with all the other uninfluential people?

So what's my point? Oh. Yeah. What is my point.

I guess I'm saying it doesn't matter. That is what propaganda is about. Making your message believed, true or untrue. So whose side am I in this discussion?

I forget.

[Bandit]

18. We might ask them for their experiences and commadations.

The same goes for you. What are your awards and service records. You have as much validity as the Red Ink Republicans you so proudly say you speak for.

[Terwilliger]

22. My award? I was born here

if your people wanted to go off and fight wars "to protect America"...well, there's only a certain amount of credit I can give to them...most fought in service of dishonorable men for dishonorable reasons...I can't say why they didn't know, and I don't doubt their sincerity of purpose

Maybe you could accept mine.

[Bandit]

26. I do doubt your sincerity of purpose

I think you are out to bash and bash some more. I find nothing of value in your insistance that we need to be prepared. I would say if you are truly sincere you will find a more positive way of supporting your party. If you truly feel that the GOP will attack using your ideas why don't you come up with rebuttle instead of more rancor.

[Patriot_Spear]

31. Teri has a hidden purpose in his attacks on Democrats!?

I'm shocked- shocked I tell you!

Who'd a thunk it?

[Rhiannon12866]

38. He is the only candidate in the race who served in the military

no matter what his specific credentials. He deserves a lot of credit for this, I agree, especially when compared to the Republican ``chickenhawk'' contingency!:grr:

[Raven]

2. Yawn...

:boring:

[Patriot_Spear]

3. It's well established that the Boston Globe is hostile toward Kerry...

Do you have a reputable source?

[blm]

8. Bush loyalist Michael Ginsburg worked at the Boston Globe

for awhile. Bush loyalists are planted at every "liberal" paper.

[Patriot_Spear]

10. Remember when they had that series of thinly veiled anti-semitic articles?

The Globe hates Kerry- any child knows this.

[edzontar]

11. The Gobe has always been hostile to Kerry

I mean, I'd like to see the military or other public service record of the reporters who write these things, or for that matter, of those in the DP and Du who insist on nitpicking this man's service.

I am a Dean supporter.

I hated and opposed the Vietnam war. I marched against it. Like Kerry (I was a bit younger and survived the last year of the Vietnam draft without having to fight or flee).

I hate and oppose the present Iraq war, and disagreed strongly with Kerry's vote in favor of it.

But I would CERTAINLY support Kerry as our nominee, and revile anyone who uses sleazery against either Kerry, or Dean (like those idiots who attacked over Israel-geez), or any other of our candidates except HOLY JOE, who stinks.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

23. I'm a native Bostonian-I concur, the Globe HATES Kerry

Seventhson and OrdinaryTa strike again with their baseless claims.

In their world, none of us could run for dogcatcher if we have Fortune 500 stocks or neglected to come back from war a paraplegic.

These two NEED TO GET SOME PERSPECTIVE.

[blm]

27. Nixon's operatives planted stories that linger today...

Glad to see that some on DU are still promoting Nixon era smears. It's not like the BFEE doesn't have enough of its own operatives keeping the smears on Kerry going for over 30 years now. They really need YOUR help.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

>>>>>>
The White House feared him like no other protester.

Colson, in a secret memo, revealed he had a mission to target Kerry: "Destroy the young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader."

The effort by Nixon and his aides to undermine Kerry went much deeper than even Kerry realized. Yet it is this chapter in his life, as much as any other, that helped turn Kerry into a national political figure. By targeting Kerry, the Nixon White House boosted his stature in ways that still are having an impact.

But at the same time, many of the issues that Nixon and his aides raised more than 30 years ago about Kerry still remain. Echoes of Colson's words can still be heard in Washington: "He's politically ambitious and just looking for an issue, a phony."

Yet even Nixon described Kerry as an articulate and impressive spokesman. The Nixon White House began an investigation of Kerry. Who was he, the Nixonites wanted to know. What was his real motivation? And how could they stop him?
>>>>>

[molly]

30. The joke is on them - they've united many of us backing

different candidates. You hit the nail on the head "in their world" - somewhere the rest of us dare not go.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[seventhson]

14. What are Fox-esque lies?

The kid WAS wounded by another of his men. He was DOWN. He might even have been DEAD for all we know. Or unconcious when Kerry gave him a fatal bullet. Only Kerry really knows. He got the silver star for that. Some have said it may have been a war crime.

Who knows whether the old man was really a "human shield" or cover?

That could well be spin to justify a random killing of a civilian. Kerry himself apparently wrote that it was wrong or punishable and then tried to spin THAT as a "joke" (I need to reread that part).

Anyway -- I posted this so that people could read and judge for themselves and ARGUE or denate the merits of the Kerry Vietnamn story.

I BELIEVE that Kerry may very well have been ignoble there.

The war itself was immoral and unjust. But he volunteered for it. Whether his acts were crimes or heroism is in the eyes of the beholders.

But - as I said -- I reserve judgment on that.

The yewitness accounts (and there are several) may not be the whole story of all these iisues. I meant the eyewitnesses to the purple hearts and more detail on the killing of the wounded teenager in a loincloth.

[sangh0]

17. The Fox-esque lies

include your description of the "kid" as "a teenager wearing a loin cloth" which left out the part about the loaded grenade launcher the "kid" (aka "VC soldier") was carrying.

It also includes the "He was DOWN". The truth is, he was running.

Then there's the "He got the silver star for that" which isn't true. Kerry didn't get the Silver Star for shooting the kid, He got it for bravery. That's what EVERY Silver Star recipient get it's for.

Then there's your expressed desire to see "eyewitness accounts" when the truth is, as you note in this post, that you HAVE read eyewitness accounts.

And again you repeat the misleading and deceitful description "wounded teenager in a loincloth". It was a "VC soldier with a grenade launcher"

[Name removed]

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[sandnsea]

13. Let's hash Vietnam over one more time

War isn't pretty. Vietnam wasn't pretty. That's why he came back and worked to get it stopped. Enough already. It is time to say Welcome Home and put a period at the end of it.

[Another Bill C.]

16. It's hard to think of a word....

I can't think of a word strong enough to describe the kind of slime that criticizes any man's military record when the detractor hasn't put in any military time him/herself.

[seventhson]

20. So Criticizing Bush or Lieutenant Calley is out , huh?

By your logic a lying liar or awol preppy or mass killere is beyond the reproach of those who have never been in the military?

That's pretty unfair.

If Kerry is lying or fluffing we should be aware of it and he is fair game as a candidate.

If the facts and evidence support him, then so be it.

I am happy to get more details and am not as skeptical of the war experience as I was before. But I am still somewhat skeptical.

[KoKo]

19. Why would someone film themselves in Viet Nam???Taking a camera.......to

show shooting people? I don't know, I find that creepy....That and the family estate in Brittany......

The more recent reports about him have said that the family didn't have that much money although his mother is a Winthrop/Forbes....but having a family estate in Brittany?..One of their homes....when he was growing up. He grew up much more privilidged than I thought....but that's okay. FDR was a good President....

Look, I think we need to know this.......even the Boston Globe doesn't seem to write anything very favorable about him.......we still need to know. It doesn't change what he hopes to do as President....just because he films himself in Viet Nam and his family is wealthier than we thought......but it adds to the picture of who he is.

Peace.

[seventhson]

21. The articles are really informative

we all need to be better informed about this guy.

It may not change those of us who are locked into our positions. But at least we can debate a lot more informed.

The fact is that he "reenacted" the shooting of the kid and his coming out of the bush with the rocket launcher. Shooting guns and wasting ammo in a hot zone.

All of that just reeks of weirdness and fakery.

If it was REALLY a hot zone why would he fake a reenactment and put his crew at risk.

And why won't the crew really talk about it?

[blm]

29. His best friend had died there. Many of the guys took film

to send to their families in case they died, too. Most of the films were taken BY Kerry and not OF Kerry as the Nixonera operatives wanted people to believe.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. You have mischaracterized, to put it kindly.

Kerry began his tour of duty in a safe haven, aboard a frigate stationed in California, and then the Gulf of Tonkin. But he wanted action, and he got it.

Kerry volunteered for service in Operation Sea Lords, skippering one of the so-called ``swift boats,'' charged with navigating the Mekong Delta in search of the small craft that supplied the Viet Cong with weapons. Kerry's time ``in country'' with Sea Lords was less than four months.
http://www.boston.com/globe/specialreports/1996/oct/senate/jk106.htm

That's what the article says, but you characterize it as:

"Kerry volunteered for a "safe" in-country duty but the assignment was changed and became something he had not anticipated."

In other words, you have described the exact opposite of the actual reality.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. and exactly how long were YOUR tours of duty???

What the heck...make it up..just like you did with Kerry.

[DealsGapRider]

34. Reading that article...

...definitely diminishes my impression of Kerry. I've always preferred Dean to Kerry, but I've always respected the fact that Kerry served. After reading that article - especially the part about him filming his experiences - it made me think that every move he made even back then was calculated to benefit his political career.

[oasis]

36. Great logic. If he doesn't die he's got a great political future ahead.

:eyes: Why wouldn't a rich kid go through the regular channels of influence? Much safer than being shot at.

[dsc]

37. This is what the Daily Howler says about the first of your articles

www.dailyhowler.com/dh021003.shtml

For starters, let's consider those war crimes. One week before Election Day 1996 (Kerry won re-election over Massachusetts Governor William Weld), the Globe's David Warsh published a startling 2100-word piece about Kerry. In it, Warch suggested that Kerry had committed a war crime in Vietnam, in the action for which he was awarded the Silver Star. (And yes, Warsh used the term "war crime.") Almost instantly, Warsh's factual presentation was shown to be bogus, and the crackpot columnist later said that he shouldn't have used the inflammatory term "war crime." The paper's ombudsman, Mark Jurkowitz, said that the story should never have run. "he issue is whether the column belonged in the Globe. The answer is no," the ombudsman wrote. But then, the Globe had been messing with Kerry all fall. Three weeks before Warsh's strange report, the Globe had published the 4000-word profile which misled Keller six years later. As Kerry tried to win re-election, the Globe was printing silly stuff about his "home movies"—and the nastiest of all possible attacks. And both of these stories were bogus.

end of quote

The Globe has a jihad against Kerry and isn't to be trusted when it comes to him. The man went to war, distinguished himself, and that is that. You should know better than to post crap like this. I often complain about the standards of Dean bashers. You fit right in with the worst of them.

[Rhiannon12866]

39. Don't flame me, but I'm confused. Who is bashing Dean?

I thought this was a discussion about Kerry and his military service.:shrug: