Taming Capitalism... Have Progressives Given Up?

[ulTRAX]

One of the problems with the Democratic Party is they have become cheerleaders for free markets. They may try to mitigate the negative effects of markets but they refuse to question any of the basic premises. Yes they may complain about media consolidation etc but only the Progressive Left seems to be raising the issue of corporate personhood and revoking corporate charters for misconduct. Even fewer are examining the basic myths of capitalism... that it delivers the best products for the best price. I think the opposite is often true. In a free market economy, it's in the interest of corporations to create proprietary monopolies resulting in higher prices for inferior goods.

Classic example... the VHS vs Beta format war. Neither format was as good as a theoretical format that had the best ideas from both design teams. The public made a massive investment in the losing format then had to reinvest in the winning format. Prices for hardware and tapes were higher because there were duplicate efforts from design to manufacturing to distribution to retailing to promotion. All these wasted resources just to see an inferior format win. We have an entire economy based on this sort of insanity. If free market lunatics had their way there would be X, Y & Z brands of electric power and appliances might only run on one.

In the 40's the US developed a single TV standard called NTSC. We all benefited because broadcasters knew they could broadcast to all sets... and TV consumers knew their one set would pick up all broadcasts. (adding UHF added a bit of a wrinkle but there were cheap converters until all TVs had to have both VHF and UHF). Compare that to the approach Reagan took to AM Stereo. He wanted the market to decide on what format would win. It meant both broadcasters and consumers were in a bind not wanting to make investments. AM Stereo essentially died.

We all benefit from standardization from the electric grid to highway signs and signals... yet it's a lost issue. Clearly NTSC shows there are ways to encourage more standardization. Industry often cooperates to create standards such as DVC... the digital videotape format that came out 10 years ago. It had the best ideas in the industry. Of course as soon as it was introduced both Sony and Panasonic rushed to create their own proprietary professional variants.

As long as we don't try to tackle such issues we lose the ability as a society to ever think of cutting the work week. As long as we have open borders to cheap goods from abroad... it undercuts our own industry which as higher social overhead in worker safety, pollution control, health insurance and pays into FICA. Progressives have to pull off the blinders and reexamine these and other social myths or forever give up on a true Progressive agenda.

[datasuspect]

1. failure to expose the myth of capitalism

almost zero effort to ensure the rights of workers, i hope this doesn't get me shot for saying this here, but it seems the national democratic party (at the top level) is as much a corporate whore as the national republican party.

seriously, all the corporate propagandists tell us they NEED to outsource so they can compete globally - since when did any of US, the vox populi, decide that it was a good idea to compete with the third world.

how can an american worker effectively "compete" with a worker who is willing to take 1/10th of the pay somewhere in malaysia?

[ulTRAX]

4. we can't compete... or perhaps we should not.

Maybe we should not compete with the likes of China. I have no problems with protectionism if it means we as a nation have more control over our own social welfare. Yet the Democrats under Clinton passed NAFTA.

[datasuspect]

6. NAFTA

along with welfare "reform" still chaps my ass.

[me b zola]

17. Pass the ass chap stick, would ya?

I'm feeling mighty chaffed myself.

The Dems have been mimicking he rw talking points since Reagan and I have had enough of it. Living under a single party system sucks.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

2. Thank you for posting this n/t

[BillZBubb]

3. The Democratic party has morphed in the Repug lite party.

The most fundamental reason for this is money. And who contributes. Democrats cannot compete with Repugs in fund raising unless they weaken their message to appeal to moneyed interests.

Another basic reason is that the Repugs have successfully sold the public on the myth of the unerring "free" market and the co-myth of the bungling, interfering government.

None of this will change until the next economic collapse. It took the Great Depression to wake Americans up to lies of corporate infallibility in the 1930's. Those lessons have long been forgotten due to the safeguards liberals built into the system. As the Repugs rip up those safeguards, we get closer to a repeat performance.

[ulTRAX]

5. origins of myths

It's interesting to note that there's a different way to look at government failures compared to market failures. Free Market nuts cling to every government failure forever... while they merely redefine market failures as proof the market is working to weed out the weak.

[datasuspect]

7. economic darwinism?

the mythical "market" is just a collection of cronyism networks that has effectively engaged the us govt as a subsidiary.

[porphyrian]

8. Symbiotic vs. Parasitic

I personally believe that the biggest problem with capitalism is its current incarnation - putting profit before humanity. Capitalism does not have to be parasitic, it can be symbiotic. I agree that progressives should be working towards this goal, especially with the amount of corporate influence in government today.

[HereSince1628]

10. No offense, I follow your argument, but when you repeat it

reconsider your use of the term symbiosis.

Symbiosis is a general term encompassing 3 types: parasitism (+,-), mutualism (+,+) and commensalism (+,0).

If you mean win-win go with mutualism, if you mean one wins, the other isn't harmed go with commensalism.

I know that is sort of a geeky technicality, but you are using the words of my life's interest.

[porphyrian]

11. No, thanks for the clarification. - n/t

[applegrove]

9. What myths would you like exposed? The one about until there

were markets there was no Middle Class. And that as markets grow - the Middle Class does?

Go ahead! Expose that.

[ulTRAX]

12. I thought I was pretty clear

The main myth I'd like to see challenged is that the market system efficient. In reality it's terribly wasteful. Free market proponents have just found novel ways to redefine market failures into successes. The focus on price competition also conceals the inefficiencies. It provides the illusion of better products at lower prices but there's no objective comparison of theoretical standardized products.

[applegrove]

13. What the **** are you talking about? Markets are efficient. Not perfect.

Where they fail they need to be hog-tied. Markets are not naturally equitable. Everyone admits that. Everyone. Closed borders to trade have failed miserably, communism & socialism have failed miserably. Mixed markets like that in the USA, Canada and all the other countries in the world except for Cuba are the only way to cause a middle class.

[ulTRAX]

15. WTF are YOU taking about?

I gave some examples of how the free market could NOT deliver the best product at the best price. In fact the VHS vs Beta war and the NTSC vs AM Stereo examples prove it. No one bothers to calculate the costs of pointless competition so all that's left is the illusion that competition is driving prices down. The notion that markets are inherently efficient is based largely on illusion and selective perception.

[applegrove]

14. DUPE

[ulTRAX]

16. thanks for the.......

thanks for the amount of thought you put into your response.

[applegrove]

18. Could you at least link to something somewhere that kinda a sort a

uses the same language as you. Beta & VHS were examples of new technologies. And prices have come down. No markets do not always work perfectly and that is where you put regulations in to help them out.

Did you know that all the countries in the World follow the Mixed Market Model - except for Cuba? What country do you live in and do you eat and cloth yourself with the stuff you can grow on your lawn?

[ulTRAX]

23. I already gave two examples

It would really help if people read posts with an eye towards understanding instead of just posting responses.

I gave several examples in this thread. NTSC was the government organizing private industry to work on a single TV standard and the DVC videotape format was a voluntary association of the electronics industry which developed the DVD standard. BOTH differ from the proprietary madness of the VHS vs Beta format war. ALL such format wars and pointless competition are wasteful because they raise prices for all. Price competition is an illusion that hides this fact.

So are we a "mixed market model" because we have a standardized electric grid?

[IndianaGreen]

19. Let us hear what W.E.B. Dubois said about capitalism

Capitalism cannot reform itself … No universal selfishness can bring social good to all

-- W.E.B. Dubois

[applegrove]

20. yeah baby - humans have to be there to intervene when corps go wild.

[Melynn]

21. That's my problem with elected Democrats too.

Too often times Democrats think they have to act like Republicans to get elected. It appears that Hillary Clinton is trying that strategy now. What happens is that if voters have a choice between a phony Republican and a real Republican they choose a real Republican.

I have hope things may turn around. Some Democrats in Congress are standing up to Bush and if Bush starts to be defeated on issues like Social Security Reform then we may see the progressives go on the offensive. And don't forget Howard Dean is energizing the Democratic base, so I am cautiously optimistic.

[ulTRAX]

22. the two party system filters out those who challenge american myths

An unintended consequence of the way the national and state constitutions were written was our two party system. Political minorities may represent a sizable minority nationally or in a given state but can not win any seats in a state or district. This means those who do win reflect a narrow spectrum in the center... and by this I mean those who accept the myths of capitalism and America. The system filters out those who challenge those myths. So it comes as no surprise that the American Left... the Democrats merely want to tinker with the myths not challenge them.