Question for DU estate Attorneys

[Mnemosyne]

Does an attorney need to keep original copies of all papers given to them regarding settlement of an estate, ie: deeds, titles, etc.?

The attorney handling my father's estate is insisting that she keep such papers and my mother does not understand why. Neither do I.

Also, how do we find a good elder/estate attorney for my mother to write her new will? The estate isn't huge, but it is substantial.

Thank you in advance for any and all answers.

[Cary]

1. No.

I always insist that my clients keep the originals, and they put them somewhere where they will be available to those who need to find them when the time comes.

[SoCalDem]

2. Actually having the attorney keep the originals might not be a bad idea

as long as the family has copies. Those things get lost easily, and an attorney's office would certainly have them available in a hurry if needed :)

[FormerDittoHead]

3. Who is the EXECUTOR?

>Does an attorney need to keep original copies of all papers given to them regarding settlement of an estate, ie: deeds, titles, etc.?

The EXECUTOR of the estate should have all of these...

If she IS the executor, then YES, she needs the originals...

HOWEVER, READ THIS SLOWLY - UNDER **NO** CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU MAKE YOUR ATTORNEY *EXECUTOR* OF THE ESTATE.

REALITY CHECK: The attorney I had *assisting* me with my Mom's estate once billed me $75 to FORWARD A LETTER TO ME that was mistakenly sent to his office and not me (the exectutor) directly. Could you imagine if his office had to MANAGE things???

[Mnemosyne]

6. My Mom is executor. nt

[FormerDittoHead]

13. Then your attorney should not have originals unless...

she's doing ALL the work.

The work would mean converting names / redeeming stocks, etc. At that point, yes, she'd need the originals.

In times of grief, one wants to divorce themselves of these chores, but having been on the periphery of the legal profession I can say that ultimately, a client has to look out for their OWN interests, while lawyers look after their practices.

Understand: any deed you had would be a CERTIFIED *COPY*. That is, you could give your attorney your "deed" but THE deed is on file with the state/county and you can always get another certified copy. Without power of attorney or your specific consent, your lawyer can't really do anything with the piece of paper. The same goes for birth certificates and auto titles btw.

Stock and bond certificates are registered in ones name. Again, without your consent / signature, simple possession of these documents means nothing.

MAKE SURE TO KEEP STRICT INVENTORY OF EVERYTHING YOU GIVE YOUR LAWYER - MAKE XEROXES.

The ONE thing I'd NEVER give to your lawyer are bearer bonds.

[Mnemosyne]

17. Thank you, great advice. Unfortunately..

After my Dad was killed, my sister/husband moved in (sold house and built one next door to Mom, started before Dad killed) and took over, giving my Mom no time to think. Sister handed over anything and everything to her atty friend from the church. Mom now has no idea even what papers the new atty has exactly. Mom is very passive and afraid to make atty angry. Guess it's time for me to go with her for a visit.

What should I ask for from the atty?

Thank you so much.

[TNOE]

23. If your mom is Executor

she needs to make the call to visit attorney to pick up papers and you should tag along for sure.

Edited to add: She should request and get copies of ALL of your father's documents.

[Mnemosyne]

26. Thank you so much. nt

[Mr.Green93]

4. how do we find a good elder/estate attorney

Call the Bar Association. In whate state does your mother live?

[Mnemosyne]

11. We live in PA. Had to fire original atty..

She (church member with sister/husband) was in what seemed like almost conspiracy with sister/husband to try to get Mom to distribute estate to family when that wasn't what was in will. It has made Mom very suspicious of anything new atty does, I can understand, Mom went through hell over it. Dad left sizable estate and will stated all goes to whichever spouse survives, not us children.

Death sure brings out the worst in some people. The greed I have seen in my sisters is unbelievable. They encourage Mom to spend as little as possible, worried about how much will be left for them when she dies. Sickening and despicable.

[TNOE]

14. That is unbelievable

an attorney would be so foolish to try and do anything other than what the Will specifically states - Wills are almost always generally set up where the residue of the estate goes to the surviving spouse, rarely is it distributed to children unless specific bequests are made or money is to be put in trust. ONLY if the spouse DISCLAIMS can the money go directly to the children.

[theboss]

19. But that's what "estate planning" is mostly

It's largely the distribution of assets prior to serious illness in order to protect them from creditors. If a parent goes in a nursing home, Medicaid does not pay until all the parent's assets are gone. So if you have $100,000 in the bank, you want to give it to your children before the nursing home gets it.

It's a race against the clock.

[TNOE]

22. Agreed

but since her father is now deceased, the attorney MUST go by what is implicitly stated in the Will. Even if the children would be so bold as to contest the Will (its been done) - the mother would prevail unless deemed incompetent.

[theboss]

29. Oh, I misunderstood

But once the assets are transferred to the mother, then she can distribute them. I assumed that was happening.

[Mnemosyne]

30. My sister & husband WERE trying to set up Mom as incompetent

A couple weeks after Dad's death some people came up and said how sorry they were about my MOM! I asked what they meant and they said sis and co. had told them she needed 24/7 care and was incapable of making decisions!!! HUH? Sister and husband denied it, of course, and I could not remember who told me, but they were trying to set her up. It finally ended up with me threatening to call police (2 months later) for the emotional and mental abuse of my Mom, sister and husband moved into camper until house was done. What a nightmare!

[TNOE]

32. It really sounds as if your mother truly needs protection

if the attorney she is dealing with is your sister/husband's church friend, you need a new attorney who will represent your mother's interest ONLY. She's probably a wreck from the loss of your father and then all this turmoil. Such a shame. If you haven't switched attorneys, do so and have her meet with and interview some and have her pick who she is most comfortable with. She is probably feeling very pulled right now. Make sure when you talk to her that you tell her that you are only interested in her best interests and leave the deciding of an attorney up to her and go with her to assist and listen if you can, but let the decisions be her and her attorney's. Time to get the sister out of the mix I'd say. Sorry for your loss.

[Mnemosyne]

34. Thank you much, Mom switched atty after sis and hubby moved out

when I threatened to call police over their emotional and mental abuse of Mom after a couple months.

[KharmaTrain]

16. Been There...3 Long Years

Sorry to hear of your situation, and mine was complicated with a parent who rewrote wills like some change underware. By the time he passed, we had to sort through 3 decades of papers.

We decided on having a bank as a co-executor just for some of the reasons you mentioned. They don't control the estate but handle all the major tax issues and will ajudicate disputes among family members...playing honest broker, and in some cases, bringing in an outside attorney to get an impartial interpretation of the will and estate law.

Regarding documents...as others have said, I can't emphasize that your mom should have ALL original documents and that only copies should be kept on file with the attorney. For peace of mind, I also have copies placed in a safe deposit box that I've trusted in two lifelong friends...with no stake involved in family matters.

Also, I'd suggest your mother look for a good estate attorney for herself. Once all this mess clears, she'll need to re-evaluate her situation and this would be a great time to go lawywer shopping and see what kind of "bang" she can get for her bucks.

Sadly, there are some lawyers who live off these estates and the acrimony they can create...as it means extra fees and prolonged closings. I had a banker removed from my case when she tried prying into my private relationships.

Yes, these times bring out the worst in people, but also the best in yourself. Feel you're doing the right thing and you'll sleep good at night...and your mom will be grateful you're there for her.

Cheers!

[Mnemosyne]

20. What a nightmare for you, my sympathies. Thanks for post. nt

[SoCalDem]

21. MY sister and her husband used my mothers home as an ATM.

We found over 30 Re-fi s at the county recorder's office and we only spent a few hours looking.. There were probably more.. and she did not even bother to tell us when my mother was in the hospital. She called me when our mother died and then tried to get me to give up my share of the estate, because my mother and i were estranged at the time of her death (long sad story).. I was almost ready to do it, and my sons said.. Mom,,.get a lawyer".. It cost me a thousand dollars for the lawyer, but in then end it worked out to my advantage. My sister had screwed up on one of the refi s and her and her husband's names were on the loan, so their share of the estate went to repay that to the estate and they even had to cough up $770 extra to each of us other kids.. (served her right)..

My sister was pissed at me too because I did not file for my share of the life insurance "in a timely manner" and they kept contacting her, wanting to "close the books".. My siblings probably filed before the ink was dry on the death certificater.. I waited almost 2 years to collect it, and they ended up paying be a couple thousand in interest.. I wish I could have left it there forever.. They were locked into a 4.75% interest rate:)

I still have not spent a dime of the money..

[Mnemosyne]

25. My sister and hubby had Mom sign papers...

that stated they didn't owe her any money, claiming needed it for loan to "finish" new home. They have bilked her out of nearly $100,000 as far as I can tell. And when Mom has tried asking for payments they have had the gall to tell her "You can't prove we owe you anything." Once in awhile they give her a cash payment of $400 or so, but without a paper trail can't prove they are paying on loans they got from parents. It's been so hard on Mom, it just breaks my heart. And she is so loving she still isn't cutting them out of will, doesn't want to hurt my sister's feelings!!

[SoCalDem]

27. My brother once called my father (who was ill with cancer at the time)

called him at 11 pm to tell him he was going to commit suicide because he was so far in debt. then he hung up the phone.. My father got in his car and drove straight throough from Miami to Bossier City, LA..when he got to my brother's place, he was not even home,, he got there 4 hours later.. he had been drunk, and then went over to a friend's house.. He eventually got a 20K loan from my father, and hit my mother up for $50K from her house again.. 2 years later he declared BK (brother)..

My sister used my mother's house for a brand new corvette.. she was 23 at the time.. I asked my mother why she did it.. she said it was because "she had always wanted" one.. By the time my sister was 20 she had already wrecked 3 cars..:eyes:

[Mnemosyne]

28. GREED, such an attractive attribute!!

Your poor father! I can't believe I am related to these people!

[Mnemosyne]

31. Be glad if you did not need the $$. Nice to see greed taught a lesson!!!

[HereSince1628]

5. My mother died last month no one could find her original will

but the attorney she used had a copy, and actually copies of my deceased father's will which it mirrored.

I'll admit that there was some incompetence with not keeping track of the originals...

but having the copies meant that my older brother could petition the court to move forward with settling her estate.

Backing-up such documents seems like a good thing to me.

[Mnemosyne]

7. So sorry on the loss of your Mom. My heart to you and yours. nt

[NV Whino]

8. Whoever keeps the originals, make copies

and note on copies how many copies there are, who has them or where they are and where the original is.

[TNOE]

9. What state are you located in?

Generally when estate planning is done, the attorney ASKS what would you like to do with your papers - they keep originals, law firm keeps copies or if they CHOOSE for the law firm to keep originals, they are held in a safe keeping facility. There is always only one original of a Will, two copies of a Trust Agreement and/or Power of Attorney and numerous copies of Living Wills and Health Care Power of Attorneys which are kept at home, given to physicians and children.

You mother should be given copies of everything, especially as Executor. If the estate is under a certain amount it has to be taken through the Probate Court procedure unless it is either very low. Most high income people have their estates and money in trusts to forego the probate procedure.

Even very good high price firms will do basic estate planning at a reasonable fee and then there are private attorneys who will do it for less of course.

[theboss]

10. Everyone needs a safety deposit box

As others have said, it's not a horrible idea for the attorney to keep the original documents, though generally a copy will do. But the originals need to be someplace safe and fairly easily accessed.

As for finding an estate attorney, call the local bar association. Or ask friends. Make a list of three of four, meet with them, and choose the one you are most comfortable with. Experience typically counts in this area, but it's not the most complicated area of law in the world, particularly if the estate is modest.

But here is the most important thing - especially if you have siblings - the attorney is representing your father. I've run into the problem in my own family where siblings have chosen the estate attorney and you find that the attorney is working in that person's interest more than the others. It's nothing obvious and only another attorney (like me) would probably notice. But it can make the whole situation uncomfortable.

[Mnemosyne]

12. See my post #11. You aren't kidding, great point, thanks!

[theboss]

15. It's a very common and almost understandable thing

Say there are three children. When parents get older, the children start to divide "tasks" among themselves. One goes to the doctor with the parents. One makes sure repairs are made to the house. And one handles the money.

The one who handles the money decides that it's time to do estate planning. The others agree. The one who handles the money has an attorney who did some work for him in the past (and whom he golfs with once a month); he'll do the work and at a discount. Sounds great. Of course, the attorney only knows the third child and talks to him ten times more than either the parents or the other siblings. Therefore decisions are made without consultation or ideas are presented without the "alternatives."

It can get tricky.

[GumboYaYa]

18. I have multiple originals prepared for clients.

I keep one set of originals in the client file. I give the client two sets of originals, one for the safe deposit box and one for the home records. I also have additional orignals of the any Power of Attorney or Health Care declration for people who need them. I advise my clients to have an original of their Health Care Power of Attorney on file with their primary care physician and an original of the power of attorney on file with the bank. If there are trsutees other than the client, I give them originals as well.

[Mnemosyne]

24. Thank you for good advice. nt

[ultraist]

33. That's good advice about mulitple original copies

Our attorney has mulitiple originals of certain documents for us too,
For any LLC, FLP, agreements, closings, wills, etc, it's standard practice to have several originals that bear original signatures of all involved parties.

I agree with those who said, have your mom keep the original deeds and titles in a safety deposit box. She should tell someone she trusts where she keeps the key and put them on the list at the bank to access the box.

We have all of our original deeds and titles. Attorneys DO lose things and make mistakes. A friend of ours ended up in a 40k legal battle over some property he sold because the attorney recorded the deed incorrectly, essentially giving the buyer the adjacent lot.

Did that attorney suggest setting up an FLP? There are ways to avoid some inheritance taxes. If the estate is over 200k, the attorney should have suggested this as an option. If your mom sets up an FLP, she does not have to gift anything away, but she can if she needs or wants to, to free her heirs of a lot of the inheritance taxes.

Good luck! If you were in NC I could suggest an excellent estate attorney but he is expensive. We know someone who spent around 30k to set up his FLP and will but it ended up saving his heirs 1 million in inheritance taxes. LITERALLY.