Are you a 'left wing fundie'?

[The Straight Story]

Based on much reading here over time and the threads about fundies I was trying to examine some things relating to it all. What keeps a fundie a fundie? And what does the term really mean?

So let me share with you some views I have seen expressed (and ones I have seen first hand in life as well):

1. Fundies tend to isolate their views - "I don't need to listen to them people, I know the truth of the Lord, etc"

2. Fundies boycott those who do not share their views "Them darn cotton pickin networks done showed a bare butt on tv and then abc let the gays into disney, time fer a boycott!"

3. Fundies ridicule outside sources to others in their group. "Hell, I wouldn't trust that web site a lick, registered to satanlover in state of californication. Don't go there and read that crap, and if you do, just remember it is crap."

4. Fundies have already sought the truth, found it, and don't need no stinkin' badges or other things like someone else's fancy ideas to muddle or attack their ideas. They will listen (and I used to go to a fundie church myself) but the seeds don't plant on hardened ground.

5. Change the radio station Vern, that fellow ain't saying what I believe. They must be of satan now (or bush in this case) so I am turning em off because they are telling me something different than what I like to hear.

6. Attack the idea a fundie puts out, and you are labeled a blasphemer. Or worse, a freeper.

Yeah - I know it paints some things with a broad brush - but I guess that was the point eh?

[Zuni]

1. You run into a few over here

they may not be religious, but they have latched on to other dogmas

[Randi_Listener]

2. Lookie! Lookie! More flamebait!

Jesus "Fuck Ass" Christ

[The Straight Story]

3. Flamebait to those looking to flame, but to me

it is an introspective analysis of core ideology of groups - I don't think the differences are all that great at some levels. Just want to discuss.

Now if you don't want to discuss, that is cool and I understand. But labeling it flamebait seems to fall into one of those categories I mentioned ya know ;)

Lighten up, just trying to make for some interesting and thought provoking discussion. Flames come from fear perhaps in some cases (and please note the quantifier) - a fear of getting down to a core level where things are similar across the board in how they work. There is nothing bad in this, the above the board things leave enough difference to discuss on a range of issues from politics to religion.

Labeling someone a fundie when one is themself a fundie though seems rather circular, and does not really do anything but create flame baiting threads because it is a no-win situation.

[Randi_Listener]

5. No such fucking thing.

fun·da·men·tal·ism Audio pronunciation of "FUNDAMENTALISM" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2.
1. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
2. Adherence to the theology of this movement.

[The Straight Story]

7. Usually and often?

Rather vague - but not exclusive. Having a fundamentalist mindset does not mean you have to have a god behind.

What I am looking for is the core of actions and how they create such a mindset - and wondering if some here would consider themselves such.

Does that mean it is bad? It has been defined as such by some - but is it really?

[Randi_Listener]

9. It's couched in fucking religion.

This is inherently not a tenant of the "left" philosophy. On the left, politics and goddamn religion are a separate entity.

[The Straight Story]

12. belief wise perhaps

but in how one acts on their beliefs is the question and how those beliefs shape how the take in other information, not the belief.

[Randi_Listener]

28. Are you trying to fucking bait me with this shit?

[Tux]

4. Read

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Complete/Series/FP.html

[Solon]

6. Its flamebait but I won't flame, too much...

:)

1. Fundies tend to isolate their views - "I don't need to listen to them people, I know the truth of the Lord, etc"

Most of us on the left do listen, then if the view is not consistant with facts, we reject it, no big deal there is it?

2. Fundies boycott those who do not share their views "Them darn cotton pickin networks done showed a bare butt on tv and then abc let the gays into disney, time fer a boycott!"

I choose not to support, financially, those who would like work against all of ours best interest, I do NOT however, make up reasons to go after a company or political party out of ignorance, but facts and past behavior.

3. Fundies ridicule outside sources to others in their group. "Hell, I wouldn't trust that web site a lick, registered to satanlover in state of californication. Don't go there and read that crap, and if you do, just remember it is crap."

This is true of most people around the world, big freaking deal, everyone on the web does it, so fucking what?

4. Fundies have already sought the truth, found it, and don't need no stinkin' badges or other things like someone else's fancy ideas to muddle or attack their ideas. They will listen (and I used to go to a fundie church myself) but the seeds don't plant on hardened ground.

Liberals and leftists by and large, assimilate new ideas much better than conservatives. We can, more or less objectively, use new facts to change and adapt to conditions of today. Conservates either stick their heads in the sand or ban it if it doesn't fit their worldview.

5. Change the radio station Vern, that fellow ain't saying what I believe. They must be of satan now (or bush in this case) so I am turning em off because they are telling me something different than what I like to hear.

Just because we don't want to listen to lies means nothing, besides, unlike those conservatives, we double check the sources for those we do like on the radio and TV. Liberals and leftists take little at face value, unlike those on the other side of the fence.

6. Attack the idea a fundie puts out, and you are labeled a blasphemer. Or worse, a freeper.

Totally depends on the idea, also depends on how it is presented. If someone posts on this board that "All Democrats Suck!!!!" then we will slam them, rightfully, because they do not contribute to any debate. However, we are no "yes committee", out of all our members, we have many disagreements, but overall we tolerate dissent much better than Free Republic does.

[The Straight Story]

10. In general it appears then

That you feel your actions in the above are reasoned, and therefore not a 'fundie' based action. I also note you use conservative several times, versus fundie - I was not equating the two, was talking more about how groups of people tend to act in a given situtation to defend their beliefs by shutting out the information from others and labeling them in some instances (as one example).

Is being a 'fundie' all that bad? IE - you make up your mind, know the truth, and defend such based on your already sought after truths.

Why is it flamebait? What triggers that reaction? Is the term fundie and liberal so explosive together that we erupt into assuming that they cannot have similarities and therefore expect any such notion to be one of a generalized insult?

I will admit my method of delivery was alas poor, but I did it on the fly with no planning. Was not intended to get people flaming one another.

I do recall a thread of late by WilliamPitt which poked at this in a round about way. That was in some way a prodding to me myself to ask the question on a more core level.

[Solon]

14. Use of lefty with fundie is flamebait...

Also, I refer to historical conservatives as a basis for comparison, because as a basic political point of view there is liberal and conservative. I don't refer to radical nationalists or neo-cons, neither the religious right. Liberals and Traditional Conservatives are reasonable to an extent, though what I say is largely true about them and us. Fundies of any stripe are annoying at best, dangerous at worst. If you hold onto contrarian beliefs even in the face of evidence to the contrary then you have a problem, simple as that.

The problem is that many people take too many things at face value, and believe what's on TV is fact. Read a book and find out how wrong you are. I take a "scientific" view in my politics. I don't try to spin facts to fit a preconceived worldview, I examined the facts, historical and modern, and see what the most reasonable solutions are to many of our problems, from markets to government. I'm also curious to a fault, so to say I would support any shutting out of information is laughable.

ON EDIT: Just to clarify, a Leftist Fundie to me would be a hardline Communist, hence the flamebait remark.

[The Straight Story]

19. Understand your view, would like to add:

If you hold onto contrarian beliefs even in the face of evidence to the contrary then you have a problem, simple as that.

I would say this happens here at DU - example would be 9/11 threads. One side would say the other side fits the bill nicely.

I don't try to spin facts to fit a preconceived worldview, I examined the facts, historical and modern, and see what the most reasonable solutions are to many of our problems, from markets to government

I feel likewise, even in my studies outside politics (ie religion and other such things). But let me give an example of late from here: "I heard X station say something which made bush look good, therefore they are bushbots and I will not listen anymore". Such a thing to me does not seem to fit into the mould you have described. While it does not mean all such are here, the question was in another way: do the actions without the labels fit the way some here act, and if so is it necessarily a bad thing (ie, can one have a fundamental belief to which they will not budge and in having such selectively tune out those things which are contrary to it ad hoc - and if they hold such a pattern are they a fundie, and if they are on the left and hold such actions are they a leftist fundie - and again, is that always bad really?)

Just to clarify, a Leftist Fundie to me would be a hardline Communist, hence the flamebait remark.

Such was not my intent, and as noted I have poorly communicated my main question at time.

[Solon]

21. Understand that to an extent...

We are no more immune to a closing off of the mind than any other group of people, on any subject. Also, context matters in debates of this sort, I mean, if suddenly a guy on the radio started quoting from the Turner Diaries, or The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, I would shut him off, and not listen again. Same thing for certain Pro-Bush comments on the radio, especially ones that attribute a false characterization to him, like he is a hero or some BS like that. If they actually say that he did something right from my point of view, well, a broken clock is right twice a day so that wouldn't cause me to stop listening. Context is important, I mean, if someone media personality is factually lying about anything, wouldn't the rest of their comments, opinions, or reporting also be suspect? If so, then why listen to them at all?

I see this a lot on the 9/11 threads as well, and I rarely contribute to those. Personally, I think it was at best, a crime of ommission, similar to a guy who saw a mugging, didn't help at all, even after the fact, and didn't call the police. Basically the entire situation is FUBAR and I believe the buck does stop at Bush, he should be held accountable for his actions and inactions.

[The Straight Story]

22. Well stated

And I would agree on the whole bush thing and 9/11. Simply put, he failed to do his job. I think this should have been hammered home for a long time, and especially during the campaign 'bush failed, america was attacked, thousands died'. Those who did the act were responsible for their actions, and guilt lays at their feet indeed. But bush and those under him failed to stop them on many levels - and no one was fired. The message seemed to be 'your government is inept at all levels, so no one is to blame, give us more money and power so the same inept people can fix what they broke'...

[Solon]

23. I know, its an odd situation...

I mean, seriously, Bush is evil incarnate, no question of that, but he's incompetent as well, that's just plain sad. Its like he is Doctor Evil with a bad toupee or something.

[w4rma]

8. fundies are folks who interpret a bible in a literal fashon. They believe

in the magic. They believe every single word is correct and is in perfect agreement with every single other word in this bible. They do not support the notion that this bible was written by a group of regular people who all have fallacies and who often use literary devices to give examples of the moral lessons they were trying to teach later generations. They do not support the notion that this bible is mearly PART of the collection of ancient lessons from ancient prophets.

That is my understanding of fundies whether they are Christian or Muslim or Jew.

[The Straight Story]

15. You bring up something of interest

I know and have known fundies of the religious (christian) type who do not really believe as strongly that the entire bible is totally accurate due to man's hand, yet they still accept the core ideals. So perhaps we have a varying degree of what one calls a fundamentalist within the frameworks of a grouping.

[w4rma]

17. There is definitely room for a degree of wavering in belief. (nt)

[Lars39]

11. You can be a fundamentalist over anything,

doesn't have to be about religion. Can even be political.
I think of fundamentalism as black/white thinking without shades of
gray. Determinedly insular. Maybe throw in some stubborness.:)

[The Straight Story]

13. You put it better then I did

Thanks. Too much beer does that to me.

[Lars39]

16. I forgot group think.

Someone on Will's thread called it hive thinking.

:toast:

[Ariana Celeste]

20. I call it extremist.

Every group, whether political, religious, or otherwise, has its extremists.
I get what you mean. It's natural, always happens. But they are always the minority.

[hfojvt]

25. I think what you want is this classic work

True Believer by Eric Hoffer

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060505915/104-3334854-7813534

[applegrove]

18. Fundies are tribalists. Because they take very, very old books too

serious. I would say that left left left wingers are not tribalists. They are more Utopians. They want everyone in their party and all their leaders to agree with them on every issue. They think their way is best. They are closed in that their theory is closed. Not because they hate the 'other'. They hate thinking that is 'other than theirs'.

[hfojvt]

24. I do not believe fundamentalism is about how far left or right

you are on the dial. As an earlier post said, it is about how rigidly a belief is held and how shrilly it will be defended. Of course, to use an example - the Reagan tax cuts. Republicans widely disseminate the nonsense that ERTA (Economic Recovery and Tax Act of 1981) increased government revenues. When they do, I have a tendency to let them have it with both barrels. Am I dogmatic if the facts are on my side? Is my shrillness unjustified if I am sick of fighting the Hydra of the Rightwing Propaganda Machine? I am sure a similar attitude can be found on many issues - when you can see you sometimes get tired of arguing with the blind, especially if they seem wilfully blind.

[applegrove]

27. All fundie's identify the 'others' as the enemy and not worthy or valid

in their continued way of life. I do not know if there are left wing fundies - perhaps some of the parties in the middle east other than al Qaeda could be left wing... I do not know. But fundies are relying on literal translations of documents that came into existence as tribal law was replaced with monotheism. Still very much tribal but just sort of uber-tribal. There model of the world is closed and based in realities that are hundreds of years old and ignore the Enlightenment.

Utopians have a closed model of the world that does not take in descending views. Ergo it would have to be enforced at the point of a gun for it to function (aka neocons who admit that at the get go) or left leftists who do not acknowledge how we all rely on markets and corporations to make a middle class. Left leftist would just like to erase all corporations and then everything would be ducky. What needs to happen are better, smarter regulations to control the things the market fails abysmally in delivering.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

26. Most people just make noise.

If they're on your side, think of them as cheerleaders.

If you want to talk to a "fundie" or right winger who is open to hearing your views and reasoned debate, DU is clearly not the place to do it.

If you can't brush off a cheerleader attack, maybe you shouldn't be in a place where people fight?