Does America Need a SOCIALIZED Medical System?

[DU_ONE]

With the cost of health care out of control and the American people being TAXED of almost half their income, should not, we the people, at least be assured of decent health care. Only South Africa and America don't have a National Health Care Sys, for all people.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Yes we do.

We always have needed it.

[Just Me]

51. No. In the Divided States of America, we just want money.

As much money and stuff as we can possibly accumulate 'cause that fills the black-holes of emptiness and disappointment and despair we must fill for failing to own the "American Dream" proffered to us by the rich who keep tactifully sucking the very life out of our lives.

DOH!!!

LIFE IS OWNERSHIP!!!

Isn't it just so grand,...AND EMPTY!!!

[maggiecleveland]

2. Move to Canada

their national health care system seems to be working real well.....

[Telly Savalas]

4. I have and it is.

[politicaholic]

5. You'd be amazed...

how little you know about the Canadian health care system Maggie.

[maggiecleveland]

10. Pretty simple to understand that doctors are hard to come

by in Canada, and many Canadians come across the border into Michigan for care...

I'm just not impressed by their long wait period for health care...

[SoCalDem]

15. Republican talking points do not a health system make

:)

Whenever I hear these, I have a hard time figuring out why we never see pictures in the paper of the piles of dead Canadians laying sll over the place :P

[maggiecleveland]

28. Human nature can't be controlled...

The Doctor's income level is controlled by the government and they haven't seen an increase in years.

Canadian health care is far from free. We are the most heavily taxed nation in the G-8. That's partly because the health care system is entirely Government run and controlled. Everything we buy, every service we use, every dollar we earn is taxed to pay for our health care system.

[SoCalDem]

36. Not a bad trade-off , really

There are lots of people here who end up very sick..and actually DIE, because they have no money for medical treatment.

If doctors are all so unhappy there, why do they stay??

[sonicx]

39. Funny, since Canada spends less per capita on health care.

you are funny...

[politicaholic]

45. Um...WRONG!

Every Canadian pays a flat fee per month then a section of their taxes go to health care. They need to build roads and stuff.

If you talley the total annual percentage of taxes Canadians have paid compared to Americans on a per capita total you'll find that the US is 1.7% higher.

Plus, taxes are paid to retain a higher level of education and social harmony that the US just doesn't have.

[Canadian Socialist]

54. Only 3 provinces

Alberta, B.C. & Ontario have a health care premium. The amount is based on income level and family size. For example, by myself, with my income, in Alberta, I pay $32/month.

[bvar22]

18. I would rather wait a while to see...

...a doctor than to not be able to afford one at all.

[NewJeffCT]

20. interesting fact for you

Canadians have better access to their primary care doctors than Americans.

[politicaholic]

27. Well Maggie, I'm Canadian...

and before I moved to Seattle I had no troubles getting into a doctor.

In fact my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer last month and they had her in sugery with in two days of diagnosis. She's doing fine and owes nothing.

I had colon cancer in 1998 here in the US and even after my insurance I still owed $175,000. That's a house Maggie. I'm going to be paying on that until I retire.

Your healthcare arguement doesn't hold water.

[maggiecleveland]

29. Anecdotal evidence

I can cite the same all day long also....

[sonicx]

34. Most Canadians are satisfied with their system, most Americans aren't...

Canada and other countries also have better vitals (longer lifespan, lower infant mortality rate, etc).

[alarimer]

38. and you are not citing anecdotal evidence??

What shit.

[maggiecleveland]

40. where?

huh?

[yankeedem]

46. If your talking point was true

Then we would be reading about overburdened doctors offices and emergency rooms near US/Canada border towns like Detroit, Buffalo, Sault Ste Marie, etc.

Why haven't I read of ONE first person article? Why is it always "a friend of a friend"? Where are these Canadians being interviewed in US doctors offices? I mean, there are 5 MILLION people in greater Toronto. If even ONE percent of them went to the US for care, that would add 50,000 patients to the health care rolls in the Buffalo area.

Better question, why is US healthcare ranked 37th in the world by the UN?

[politicaholic]

41. Until you run out of Canadians you know...oh, and personal experience...

which you have none.

I would suggest instead of focusing on the problems you may want to educate yourself on how the system works.

Every Province has a different policy on Healthcare plus they are free to allocate their healthcare dollars. The problems in Ontario (your brand of Canadian) may not be the same in BC or Nova Scotia.

Your perceived influx of Canadians rushing down the States for higher priced health care and higher priced prescriptions possibly could be going to health care clinics that offer cosmetic surgery, which in Canada can be quite expensive.

[Telly Savalas]

44. You can cite examples...

of where someone in the Canadian healthcare system has to shell $175,000 out of their pockets to pay for colon cancer treatment? I'd like to hear 'em.

You wanna go beyond anecdotes? Alright let's look at some stats. According to this MSNBC article, 50% of all bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical costs and of these cases, over 75% had insurance. In contrast, in Canada, NOBODY goes bankrupt due to medical costs.

Yes, some rich people in Canada queue-jump by going to the States for certain medical treatments. But the services they receive in the U.S. are ones that are beyond the financial means of most Americans. To claim the U.S. system is better is ridiculous.

[TankLV]

70. And they'd be all lies.

Nice try.

I system of rationing flu-vaccine was a real blast, wasn't it?

[RoeBear]

89. Why in the world didn't you

go back to Canada for the cancer treatment instead of racking up that huge bill here?

[elare]

65. Long wait?

If I'm sick and in need of antibiotics, I can generally get in to see my doctor the same day. If he's really busy and I wait more than 20 minutes in his waiting room, he apologizes and thanks me for waiting.

[eridani]

83. I'm not impressed by our long waits for health care either

Nor by people being refused treatment for lack of money, which never happens in Canada.

[etherealtruth]

24. To the uninsured poor (and working poor)...

any health care may seem like Nirvana.

I don't feel compelled to replicate others mistakes... Why not take the parts of Canada's (and the many European) systems that work and improve the aspects that are less than optimal.

[oc2002]

92. ..I am starting to realy consider this option.

..and leave Jesusland before it all goes in the tiolet.

[EVDebs]

3. But isn't it obvious how wonderfully the FREE MARKET healthcare system is

working for us all ? (Sarcasm intended and underlined).

[Fovea]

6. It would be the biggest single factor in

raising American productivity and profitability.

Freed from the costs of health care benefits, and simultaneously
reaping the benefits of a healthy workforce would be a huge shot in the arm for business.


And the lack of ruinous debt that a single major illness can saddle the uninsured with would also make our economy healthier as well.

But the shadenfreude right do not want to know that the lazy and the sinful are healthy. That is reserved for the rich.

[DU_ONE]

16. realpolitik

You are absolutely correct . . . it would be GREAT for business . . . corporations would not have to worry about health care cost.

America has ALWAYS been supported by SECRET socialism like, government police protection, government highway and road building, public education, governmen fire department, but we just call it government service instead of "socialism." These are services that individuals can't afford to pay for "privately" so we have really, "socialized" them but we just don't call it by its "true."

[Fovea]

60. No policy that cannot be sustained

is realpolitik.
But knowing that requires being a reality based administration.

When you raise the many, you raise the standard of all.
When our leaders assume that the economy is a Darwinian
zero sum game, it behaves that way.

When they realize that it is the manifestation of the power of the middle class that sustains America, and when the extremely rich actively punish workers, they sit on a powder-keg and flick lit matches at the ground.

[TankLV]

71. Couldn't agree more. Used to be that all businesses were REQUIRED to

provide TOTALLY EMPLOYEER PAID FOR full coverage health insurance for all employees and their families without exception in Hawaii until the repukes got into power.

And all the employers LOVED it because they didn't have to compete or out-bid other companies for employees and knew that they were all competing on this issue on the exact same footing - and it was the cheepest in the country! And the economy was booming then!

I was one of the biggest boosters of Clinton's Health Care Plan and the CEO of a 12 person firm then.

The whore media and repukes sure managed to scare everyone out of that one big time!

[Dave Reynolds]

7. Yes.

Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[BrklynLiberal]

8. oops. Can't call it "SOCIALIZED". All the RWers think that means

COMMUNIST!!
These believers in Social Darwinism believe that if you are unfortunate enough to be sick and poor, then god must not love you, and therefore you deserve to rot in the street, and those who have money can step over your corpse in the street as they go to the bank.
It is not their responsiblity to take care of those who are too stupid to fend for themselves. I actually heard a RWer say that on the Ed Shultz show today. A young guy..sounded like he was in his 20s...and at that age he was already convinced that it was not his job to take care of anyone but himself!!! I wanted to put my fist thru the radio.
Hope he gets the karma that he deserves. Even Ed was sputtering. Ed almost hung up on him cause he could not deal with this kids absolute selfishness.

[Dave Reynolds]

14. I've had the same conversation

with my son-in-law. "Why should I pay for someone else's laziness?"

He is in his 20s as well, never really been out on his own without support from fairly wealthy family members.

I suggested that he spend a week or two like a poor person, with no money, credit cards, or family to live with. He suggested that I sounded like a "communist".

Thus ended the conversation.

[BrklynLiberal]

25. Doesn't it make you want to just cry for the coming generations?

What is coming if this is what they believe?

[Dave Reynolds]

35. It does sadden me.

What's worse, I find myself hoping he would get a taste of being totally screwed just once. It's worse because he is married to my step-daughter and they have a 2-month-old baby.

I lived in my car and ate three times a week when I was 19, so I know anything I have now is a gift, and most of my problems now pale in comparison to others less fortunate.

Some of the kids just don't think.

[smoogatz]

9. We need national health insurance

Not socialized health care. Big difference.

Are you sure about that South Africa/US thing? Togo has socialized medicine? Afghanistan?

[two gun sid]

13. That is Industrial Nations...

and yes it is the US and S. Africa.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. I thought South Africa is phasing it in

:shrug:

[BBradley]

22. I don't want health insurance...

I want health care. There is a big difference. One ensures that everyone in the United States has access to medical care without acquiring huge debt, and the other is a political handjob...

[TheModernTerrorist]

32. some of us like handjobs...

;-)

[TankLV]

73. Or at least a "reach around" while they are fucking us!

Do dogs like bones?

Of course not!

They prefer STEAK!

But if all they get is bones, then they come to love bones.

Doubt me?

Put a bone and a steak in front of any dog.

See which one they go for.

That is the US "sheeple" when it comes to "health care" - it is the only system they know and the normal person is afraid of "change" - even if it's for their betterment!

[gizmo1979]

11. Why yes we do

Put the screws to insurance companies would be an added bonus!~

[truebrit71]

12. Damn right we do...

Ain't ever gonna happen tho'...not least as long as it gets to be labelled as "socialized medicine"...

It still amazes me that the richest country in the world can't feed, clothe, house and provide care for all of it's own citizens.

Simply amazes me.

[ProudDad]

21. According to the right wingers

It would be sinful and take away their incentive to excel...

[Radical Activist]

17. I don't think a single Democrat has called for a socialized medical system

Some, like Dennis Kucinich, have called for removing the health insurance system and replacing that with a federal system that won't waste money on CEO salaries and stock dividends. But no one has suggested that the government take over the hospitals and doctor's offices, which is what "socialized medical system" implies. "Socialized Medicine" is a Republican propaganda term designed to confuse and scare people.

[drjc1]

19. Does America Need a SOCIALIZED Medical System?"

That make us "leading" in two areas. We are also the only industrialized country that allows our natural resources to be in private hands. In any case, its long overdue. As a health care practitioner I would much rather see a single payer system. In fact, it would save us money. Right now we are paying an average of $6000 per capita for health care, which means a 2 trillion dollar system. What are we getting: Not Much! We are tied with Cuba (rank 27) in overall health care quality and they spend $100 per capita. Is there something wrong with this picture?

[ProudDad]

26. Cuba's much further ahead

The only reason they're that low on the list is that the U.S. embargo has severely limited their access to medicines and supplies.

Their system is VASTLY superior to the U.S. system. Check out Michael Moore's TV Nation - heathcare challenge. They contrasted Canada, U.S. and Cuba's health care systems. U.S. came out WAY behind.

[GetTheRightVote]

23. Yes we do, I second this wish list

:kick:

[DU_ONE]

30. American's need to get over the word socialism

Cause capitalism is sending all our jobs overseas and closing up factories and American's have supported capitalism even unto death, but the capitalism corporations have brought the political process and are destroying the coutry for the working people. Time for some balance, a little socialism to balance out the capitalism. Extremes are not always good. Inside the socalist support system let free enterpries and private ownership florish. Balance is the key . . .

[sonicx]

31. Um, "Socialized Medicine" means everything is government controlled...

Canada and other countries don't have that. The services are private, but the bills are from tax dollars.

Probably best not to use that term...

[Cleita]

43. It's called a single payer universal health plan. n/t

[blogbear]

33. Fidel Castro Takes Care Of Health Care But US Can't!

The United States never quite finishes lecturing the world on what it can do (or declaring war on the world for what it wants)..Yet this place NEVER seems to deliver on its promises or duties to US people or others elsewhere! How did "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" become Land of the Impoverished, Haven For the Rich?????? Have governmental promises become as old as governmental empty lines here?

[DU_ONE]

37. Let's call it . . .

"Collectivized Health Care Sys" - "collectivized" will only offend the follower's of Ayn Rand.

[Cleita]

42. We need one desperately. A very good plan has been

proposed by the Physicians for a National Health Program that is similar to the Canadian system. http://www.pnhp.org But nothing will happen until we make health care unprofitable to the private sector insurance, HMO and pharmaceutical industries so that they get out of the business and we can move forward.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yankeedem]

49. Many US MD's want Socialized Health Insurance

because it removes the burdens of putting finance over treating patients- Canadian doctors don't have the stress of having to cut off a terminal patient because they lose their insurance.

Not to mention that the infrastructure for billing and collections goes away for the most part. That is a BIG money waster in many medical practices.

On edit: here is a group of physicians who want a better way.
http://www.pnhp.org/

[Cleita]

61. As an MD why do you object to it?

It seems like you would have fewer problems with billing and getting paid.

[TankLV]

74. Opps! Your greed and selfishness is showing!

You got yours - screw the rest of us, right?

"Welcome" to DU.

Enjoy your short stay here!

Don't forget to post and run again after just joining up!

[xray s]

48. We need fewer freeper trolls...

...whoring for the insurance industry

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. Not if you're wealthy enough to afford the lousy system we have.

Or, if you are a doctor looking to fill the mansion's garages with Mercedes.

[applegrove]

52. It works better than the private system.

[solinvictus]

53. Yes, desparately..

the only firm job offers I've had are temp with no bennies and, as everyone is aware, $10-$12/ hour isn't enough to purchase individual or family health coverage.
I've worked for two major health insurers and, in all honesty, it's the biggest racket I've ever seen.

[NNguyenMD]

55. this is coming from a future doctor, YES!!!

[CHIMO]

56. Well The Northern

Part of North America has a single payer health insurance plan. Each province runs the plan as they wish within the guidelines set down from the Federal Government. Additional contributions are obtained from the general populace which are duly approved through elections.
I suppose there may be a province where some people are dying in the streets but I haven't heard anything in the MSM about it. If it were happening I suppose one might blame it on the bad medications.

[American Tragedy]

57. No, not socialized medicine. Universal healthcare coverage

the costs would be covered publicly, but the services would remain private.

There does need to be some serious government oversight on the unbelievable price gouging of prescription drugs. People will continue to fall into bankruptcy until the government recognizes that the pharmaceutical industry is fundamentally different. Capitalism is excellent for most things, but not when companies circumvent the system by monopolizing products that people cannot live without.

[Mallifica]

58. yes n/t

[dflprincess]

59. You'd think one of the advantages the US would have if and when

we ever get a national health care system is that we can look at every other industrialized nation and their systems. We don't need to have a system that is identical to Canada or Germany or New Zealand. We should be able to figure out what works and what doesn't in those systems and design something based on the best aspects of several systems.

The trouble is, the insurance companies are donating way too much money to "our" representatives. We'll never get the health care system fixed until we fix campaign financing.

[TankLV]

75. Don't forget the "contributions" of the doctors, especially the

specialists!

Gotta keep that $200-$500,000 salary!

[DU_ONE]

62. The Triumph of Socialized Medicine

Notice Slate uses the word "socialized" as in, right in your face America. Capitalist America has always been supported by Socialized governemnt services like the governemnt highway department that builds national highways so that capitalist trucks can carry product accross America. And government education is a form of Socialism. All government police departments, that protect private enterprises, are a form of Socialism.

We, American's just need to face the fact that our capitalist sys is supported by government socialism. I am all for private property, free interprise competition but let's be REAL, with out government services, that are in reality a form of socialism, our free interprise system would not exist.

Slate article:
http://www.slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2114554

[NewJeffCT]

63. great article & welcome to DU

great read, and will make some really good stuff for a LTTE.

[TankLV]

76. Don't forget the socialized corporate structure.

"Socialize" costs and risks while "privatizing" the benefits.

Nice racket.

Better swindle.

[DU_ONE]

64. How many American's

Could afford to pay for private education and not go to public/government education?

How many American's could afford their own "private" security protection or police force? So we have a socialized police force.

How many highways are are built, owned and maintained, by private corporations? So we have government a socialized highway dept.

And all of this is paid for by our socialized tax dollars.

[Hippo_Tron]

66. Yes but I have a dilemma

I'm all for single-payer healthcare in the sense that it takes the middle man, insurance companies, out of the system and saves us an assload of money. It also saves money when people get drugs and treatment instead of being rushed to the ER for major surgury that they can't even afford anyway.

My dilemma is that I believe that most doctors are entitled to the $200,000 that they make a year. Some of them are on call 24/7 and live a very stessful lifestyle. Med school is very difficult and very stressful and also very expensive.

Perhaps the solution is that doctors just charge a reasonable flat fee for basic services and not have those covered by insurance. Insurance could be socialized and only used for very costly emergency room visits or for very low income patients.

[CHIMO]

67. So Agree On

A fair renumeration. It need not be a one way street. If everyone agrees on a fair value then pay it.

Also I think people are forgetting a theme that was common a few years ago. Taxes should be lowered on corporations, as there is only one payer and that is the consumer. Thus if corporate taxes were lowered, then consumer costs would go down. Well then play that in reverse and use corporate taxes to assist the medical payments as really consumers are paying for it.

[elare]

79. What makes you think ...

.. that doctors in Canada are making less than $200,000/yr? There was a recent story about a small town in Ontario, where 5 doctors wish to relocate to a larger cities (they're at the end of their already extended commitment to that town). All 5 are making over $300,000/yr, and receive a housing subsidy.

[TankLV]

68. "National" health care for everybody, yes.

Long overdue.

[donheld]

69. Yes indeed we do

It would be worth it to all.

[buddysmellgood]

77. I would like a personalized medical account whereby the money that I would

have given to the government to provide for healthcare, instead goes into a fund managed by hamsters who eat 20 percent of the fund off the top. They then shit the rest back to me in the form a a pill I can eat that will make me live forever...or until I am raptured.

[Rapcw]

78. It works for the military n/t

[foreigncorrespondent]

80. Absolutely!

Take a look at Andy Stephenson! If the U.S. offered socialized medicine, then he wouldn't be in the state he is in now.

My partner, who has been unemployed now since the dot com crash of 2000, hasn't had health coverage since she walked out of her office, on the last day there. You wanna know what it is like to be 8,000 miles from the person you love. And worry that if they happen to get sick, she won't get the treatment she needs?

It is about damn time the government stopped thinking about the corporations, and began thinking about the people who work to keep those corporations alive. And those people unfortunate enough to have been affected by outsourcing American jobs. And the elderly, and every damn citizen they are paid to protect and represent.

[area51]

81. "Does America Need a SOCIALIZED Medical System?"

Is the pope Catholic? As others have brought up, we already have socialized protection in the military, police & fire depts. Also, worker productivity would increase when we're all healthier.

---

"Prosperity is just around the corner." -- Herbert Hoover
"The economy has turned a corner." -- GW Bush

Herbert Hoover = GW Bush

Neither man cared about the Depression their economic policies created.

[Padraig18]

82. 'Socialized medicine' is just a scary term used by the right wing.

'Socialized' medicine is just a scary term used by those who oppose a single-payer, nationalized health-care system. The truth of the matter is that a nationalized, single-payer health-care system would be no more 'socialized' in its nature than are schools, roads, police, fire, water & sewer, etc. . We already use tax dollars to bring services to the people in the name of the 'common good' or 'general welfare'. Health care would be no different.

[cap]

84. we love the socialized medicine that we have now...

the VA and Medicare. Medicaid, despite its faults, is welcomed by those who have no alternative. I cant think of a parent who uses CHIPS for their kids that doesnt like it.

We dont mind that our largest employer, Walmart, refuses to provide private insurance to its lowest paid employees. We dont mind paying for the Medicaid that Walmart employees use.

I dont think the 45 million Americans without health insurance would have minded "Hillary Care" with all its faults.

We arent even talking about the millions of Americans who feel underserved by their HMOs.

We arent even talking about the Americans who have gone bankrupt from medical bills or who will get hammered by the new bankruptcy bill.

[Vinca]

85. Absolutely!!! Health care should be every much a right as

a basic education. Socialized medicine would fix the Medicare/Medicaid problem, too. Who would lose? The insurance companies (boo hoo), "for profit" hospitals (they couldn't charge an arm and a leg for a CAT scan done on a machine that's been paid for for 10 years) and the drug companies (black arm band, anyone? didn't think so). This country should be ashamed to exclude so many people from basic health care, but - of course - we've got other priorities like blowing up hospitals in Baghdad then building new ones. By the way, I'm betting the majority of people who are opposed to this notion are affordably covered by insurance by their employer. I'm self-employed and recently had to give up insurance when it hit $12,000 a year, even with a $5,000 deductible. Last year with the insurance premiums and noncovered expenses I forked over $16,000 from my meager retirement savings for necessary health care. The insurance company paid zip, zero, nada. I don't get routine examinations, I don't get my eyes examined and I could stand about $20,000 worth of dental work. Canada, you say? We're looking. I'm grateful my husband has duel citizenship.

[leesa]

86. Desperately! I work in the industry...it is collapsing from its own weigh

Privatization is a disaster.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

87. Yes! The free market is useless for providing public services

In the U.S.A. the market mechanism is used for health care and instead of competition keeping costs down and prices being low - healthcare costs are going up, drug costs are going up, private healthcare companies' profits are very high. The profits are not being reinvested into healthcare but go into private bank accounts, luxury yachts and donations to political candidates.

If you go to all the other 1st World countries with national health care, you'd find massive majorities in each in favour of retaining national health care.

[Telly Savalas]

91. Furthermore there's more red tape with the "free market" system.

I'm too lazy to google up a source, but a much higher percentage of healthcare cash in the U.S. goes towards administrative costs than in Canada. Money which is being used to support a huge clumsy bureaucracy aimed at helping insurance companies and others profit from illness could be used to treat the illness.

[depakid]

88. Well, the NHS works pretty well-

and they actually have a pandemic contigency plan...

[tinonedown]

90. Yes, most certainly.

And we will get it, (hopefully) maybe soon under President Hillary Rodham Clinton. Most Americans agree, we just have to get past this admin. Right now we are an absolute mess.

[kcwayne]

93. Of course. My long term health care plan is death

I am self employed, and my health care premiums increase steadily at 33-100% every time the policy comes up for renewal. I have a 10,000 deductable now, but still pay $4,000 per year in premium.

I have not been to a doctor for checkups, let alone any major health problem, knock on wood. My wife and daughter have problems with allergies, and my wife had a non-malignant melanoma removed about 5 years ago, so they use those as excuses to continually make the care unaffordable.

I have averaged paying 12-15K per year for health care for the last 5 years. As we age, and the premiums and care continues to sky rocket I will not be able to pay for it.

There is no question in my mind whatsoever, that I will be faced with the choice of dying or seeking care, and my wife and I will face compromised health in our "golden" years because I simply cannot pay the freight for what it takes to keep hospitals and doctors flush in cash.

The thing about health care that enrages me the most is the completely non-competitive culture that medicine operates in. I would like to see that changed more than anything.

[leftofthedial]

94. yes