selfishness is a virtue

[datasuspect]

in the new cockfight world where so many of us play the role of roosters. our masters make money off the whole spectacle.

the EOD (established order of domination - foucault's term) which includes schools, the government, multinational corporations, the incessant advertising we allow to penetrate our minds has turned the powerless against the powerless. we really need to take a page from the history of radicalism and do something that actually counts.

the power structure laughs at petitions, your congressman will send you a form letter (while he's on his knees in the locked office with a lobbyist standing in front of him), and protests get you a "free speech zone" with no effective redress possible.

face it, at a meta-level your life is a line item on some excel spreadsheet somewhere, your thoughts, dreams, and desires are commoditized in advertising/marketing companies' conference rooms and called "mindshare", and your body is something to be isolated in a cube, sequestered, and surveilled for the most wakeful parts of your day.

this is not intended to diminish any individual person: many of us have close family/friendship networks where we are valued. however, the world is increasingly selfish and it seems like no one in authority really gives a shit whether the bulk of the american public suffers or not.

time for me to go back to happy bunnyland.

[htuttle]

1. Regarding protests

When did we all decide to go get proper permits for our protests? At was the same time we seem to have decided that protests should be 'informative' in nature instead of being 'disruptive' in nature.

Whenever it was, that was the exact moment that protesting lost it's power.

Public protests and demonstrations only 'work' if you can cause as much discomfort as possible to the EOD (to use your terminology). The threat of that discomfort, and the ability to cause MORE discomfort/disorder, are the power that protests used to have to bring change.

Ultimately, protesting should be meant as a threat. It's a threat that if things don't change, you will continue to disrupt the established order -- you will continue to harm their profits.

I know it had something to do with fear of a backlash -- that 'violent' protests 'make us look bad'. Well, fact is, the corporate media will make protestors look bad if they wish no matter what the protestors actually do. Anyone watching corporate 'news' during the protests before the invasion of Iraq should be able to see that by now.

So we might as well stop traffic from now on. We might as well MEAN something when we say, "no more business as usual." Without the threat of social disorder, protesting has little power.

"5...6...7...8...We will not cooperate..." But if you go get a permit and stay in the free speech zone, you're already cooperating.

Finally, not following the rules WILL bring the wrath of 'the Man' down on your head. That's actually another point of protesting. The more the powers-that-be try to repress protests with force, the more activists they create. As a friend of mine was said (or quoted), "Nothing radicializes someone like a billy club to the side of the head." The more the EOD represses, the more people they piss off.

But none of that even gets started if we get permits, stay inside the free speech zones, and disperse quietly when the scheduled event is over.

Just saying...

[datasuspect]

2. well

much of what is happening nowadays is really important.

i'm more than willing to sacrifice my physical comfort and safety, clean record, and time to do something that makes a difference.

one more petition will not accomplish anything, writing a representative or senator accomplishes nothing, and "playing nice" just plays right into their hands.

i agree with you.

imagine if even 400 people protested without permits. imagine if they refused to comply with police orders - spontaneously. sure there would be lots of injuries and arrests, but damn, get enough of that going off, i think SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE might start to take notice.

the time for "warm fuzzies" is over.

anyone with me?

[htuttle]

9. The night the war started...

...we had a protest in Madison at the Capitol building (as usual). Somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000 or so showed up, IIRC (it may have been more -- we did top 10,000 at one protest, but I think that was the Feb 15th one).

There was a short march scheduled after the traditional speeches from local activists, labor leaders and church groups, and that's when it got really interesting.

As the protest organizers started off on the designated 'march route' (parade route, really), a group of Black Bloc'ers (bless their hearts) decided to take another route, right up at the front, on a breakaway march.

Well, for some reason still unknown to me, the crowd as a whole DECIDED TO FOLLOW THE BREAKAWAY MARCH. We had thousands and thousands of people carving a free-form snake through Madison's downtown -- stoppping traffic all the way.

The Bloc'ers bascially hijacked the whole damned march. Some of the organizers were kind of upset (ownership issues, I guess), and were also concerned about what the police would do.

Well, Madison's cops got damned good at handling this sort of thing over the years, and did NOT try to stop the march. They instead kept ahead of the march a block in every direction, and stopped traffic where ever we were headed.

We were shouting, we sat down in the middle of some intersections for awhile, we were marching through college student neighborhoods, calling people out of their houses to join us. WE WERE OFF OUR FRICKIN' LEASHES!! It was the most fun I've had outside our bedroom for a long, long time.

We marched 56 blocks, unpermitted, with at least a few thousand people hanging on until the end. At one point, we marched directly into traffic on a one way street (University Ave), and forced everyone to stop as we marched between the cars.

Like I said, the Madison police force, thanks to the influence of former Chief Cooper, has gotten very good at NOT inciting a crowd, but still keeping people from getting hurt. Nothing really bad happened that night. And it didn't stop the invasion.

But at least, for once, we were playing offense!

[datasuspect]

11. i'd like to talk to you off the public discussion list

may i pm you?

[htuttle]

15. Feel free

PM's are like a telephone. Anyone can feel free to call, I'll feel free to decide whether to answer.

;)

[Just Me]

46. Hey, htuttle,...

,...will ya take notes and share *grin*.

:bounce:

[datasuspect]

12. that's what i am talking about

there's all this hand wringing and SO much distraction and noise that i really get disenchanted with the whole thing.

[Just Me]

52. Ahhhh, disenchanted from your virtuous "selfishness",...correct? n/t

[datasuspect]

54. what's your deal?

i'm sorry if you interpreted any offense from anything i wrote, but it wasn't intended. you seem mean-spirited.

[Just Me]

64. Yeah,...sometimes my posts are misinterpreted,...

:hug:

I'm really just challenging your assumptions or perceptions,...not your worth.

Life is a trip. Let's take the journey, together.

[datasuspect]

56. and i'm not advocating selfishness

you could determine this by READING WHAT I WROTE.

[K-W]

58. What you wrote wasnt clear.

Why do you insist on taking offense and assuming hostility when people misunderstand you? Why do you refuse to simply clarify?

[SmokingJacket]

6. I know, I know...

Once I staged a protest with some friends out of sheer rage. It was against a white-supremacist group who was having a White Power parade.

What happened? I was arrested for not having a permit. That's how they stop people from protesting. I was so angry I nearly popped one of the cops, nevermind I'm a rather petite woman and the cop was a freaking Sasquatch. Suddenly I was accused of assault.

Big fine and melodrama: being carted off by the cops on TV, community embarrassment. Almost got fired. Threated by KKK.

[datasuspect]

8. i'm sorry to hear about that

i, however, really have nothing left to lose.

[Just Me]

37. Really? When did that happen? Where? It was publicized?

Please, do give some details such that I can follow up because I may be able to help.

[SmokingJacket]

41. It was a number of years ago in Louisiana.

It was on fricking TEEVEE! Locally.

I know it shouldn't have, but it put me off protesting. I don't want a record. It got me thinking... did I actually help this p.o.s. white supremacist group get publicity? Would it have been better for everyone if no one showed up to protest them?? They had a permit; they weren't arrested.

I was young at the time (1993). Now I'd probably contact the Southern Poverty Law Center or something...

[htuttle]

47. Look at it this way

Even if the Klan got a permit, if everytime they show up somewhere a few score or few hundred people get arrested counter protesting them, it's likely to make the city think twice about granting the Klan a permit in the future, since the situation is so disruptive. Then it will be up to the Klan to risk arrest in order to protest without a permit.

So it can have a good effect, even if your group gets arrested and they don't.

:shrug:

[ultraist]

57. When we just showed up to protest a KKK rally, it shut the rally down

This was years ago in FL. We showed up with no permit, they did have a permit for use of a public park. The shouting started, the KKK freaks started making threats, one of them got a shot gun out of his truck, within seconds, the park was swarming with cops and they ended the rally! LOL!

Disrupting an event can be effective.

[SmokingJacket]

73. Excellent! Those people are cowards.

Racists are people governed by fear. It's good if you can use it against them.

[Just Me]

50. You don't want a record of protesting a white supremist group?

And, are you saying that the SPLC was never contacted to maintain a record?

Your posts are,...elusive. Is that on purpose? :eyes:

[SmokingJacket]

55. Did you mean to reply to me?

If you want the exact details, I'll give them to you in a PM.

I'm paranoid about my identity; I admit it.

What are you implying here? I don't get it.

[Just Me]

65. Yes. I'm just trying to get some perspective from your posts, is all.

No need to get paranoid. You are certainly welcome to PM about the details. Maybe, I could help you.

[SmokingJacket]

66. A bit late for that.

This was 12 years ago.

Sorry... it's unpleasant to post in good faith and then get an eyeroll in response.

Certainly there are a lot of freepers around these days (another bunch seems to have showed up recently) but cripes, my posts hardly qualify.

[Just Me]

69. Yeah *LOL* right,...whatever. Meanwhile, the authentic torches of justice

still have their bearers. What torch do you carry? *smirk*

[SmokingJacket]

72. Seriously, what are you talking about?

"Authentic torches of justice"?

Are you a Torch of Justice?

If you are accusing me of something, please be explicit so I can defend myself.

[ultraist]

74. LOL! I wondered the same thing, where did "authentic torches" come from?

I wouldn't give out too many personal details to an unknown blogger either. You never know who that person really is.

We've had some long time moles here from the site that shall remaine unnamed.

[walldude]

3. So true.. reminds me of the Bob Seger song

Feel Like A Number.....

I take my card and I stand in line
To make a buck I work overtime
Dear sir letters keep coming in the mail
I work my back till it’s racked with pain
The boss can’t even recall my name
I show up late and I’m docked
It never fails
I feel like just another
Spoke in a great big wheel
Like a tiny blade of grass
In a great big field
To workers I’m just another drone
To ma bell I’m just another phone
I’m just another statistic on a sheet
To teachers I’m just another child
To irs I’m just another file
I’m just another consensus on the street
Gonna cruise out of this city
Head down to the sea
Gonna shout out at the ocean
Hey it’s me
And I feel like a number
Feel like a number
Feel like a stranger
A stranger in this land
I feel like a number
I’m not a number
I’m not a number
Dammit I’m a man
I said I’m a man

[datasuspect]

4. yep

[Dark]

5. Selfishness, up to a point, IS a virtue.

It's important to look out for oneself and those one cares about above all others. But don't sacrifice other people's happiness for your's.

Read Ayn Rand, an interesting libertarian. Her ideas are by no means novel, but they are intriguing.

[datasuspect]

7. i put that as the thread title

to see if anybody read what i wrote.

i don't think selfishness is a virtue. i'll spare you my thoughts on ayn rand.

[northamericancitizen]

20. "I think therefore I disrupt" loose translation of a quote

from an unknown anarchist. "Je pense donc je nuis".

Its sad to see so many north Americans (including my fellow Canadians) tacitly agree to act (or not act) as if their soul had stopped feeling and their brain stop working.

lise

[datasuspect]

24. like so many ostriches

"it won't affect me, it won't affect me, it won't affect me."

[Dark]

27. I did read what you wrote, and agreed wholeheartedly with most everything,

except that selfishness is not a virtue.

[datasuspect]

30. and it isn't

like i said, i can't discuss ayn rand politely, so i'll just leave it alone.

[K-W]

13. Interesting libertarian?

How about delluded social darwinist.

[Dark]

23. I don't agree with everything she says, but some of her ideas do make

ya think. . .

[K-W]

31. I disagree.

I dont find it any more thought provoking than any of the other contrived philosphies invented to make the winners in our unjust system feel like they are doing the right thing.

[K-W]

10. Im not sure what your point is.

This is the king of uphill battles and always has been.

Petitions arent supposed to do anything but express the voice of those who signed it, and if you dont think expressing your voice is something that can cause change you are historically ignorant. The fact of the matter is that petitions do make a small difference, indescernible, but combined with lots of other actions the effect can add up.

The world is not increasingly selfish. What on earth are you talking about. You need to get some historical perspective here. We are talking about the demons that have been plaguing human society from the get go. Things are not worse, in fact we have it better than almost every other group of humans that has ever lived.

So face it, progress has been made and can be made despite those on the right and left who want to pretend that this is some time of historic levels of problems.

[datasuspect]

14. well, i don't appreciate you calling me historically ignorant

and i thought my point was very clear.

i cannot account for another person's perception however.

did you read what i wrote?

[K-W]

17. I didnt call you anything.

If you do in fact believe false things about history, you are historically ignorant. That is all I said.

Im sorry if it is indeed the case that you believe false things about history, but you were the one who drew that conclusion, not I.

Your point was not remotely clear. I am puzzled as to why you dont just tell it to me. Is this a discussion or a game?

I read what you wrote just fine thanks. Now why dont you explain it. What you wrote was not clear and to the point despite what you might think.

[datasuspect]

18. pass

have a good evening.

[K-W]

21. Id have a better evening if youd discuss things with me

rather than getting dismissive because I dont agree with you.

Why would you start a thread if you didnt have the intention of discussing your ideas with those who disagree with you?

[htuttle]

22. The longer view of history you take, the more correct you are....

...in that we've been travelling on a long, long road, and have made a lot of progress. Over the last 1,000 years, the last 100 years, and even the last 40 years. The definition of 'person' and 'citizen' has widened greatly since it used to mean only a Greek land-owning male.

It's when you start looking at the last 10 years that it seems like things are going downhill. People want to see changes in their own lifetimes. It takes a long time to realize that the struggle you are involved in started long before you were born, and will continue long after you die. I think 'Right now' always seems most important, no matter when you live.

on edit: Fixed a slaughtered sentence in the subject line

[K-W]

26. And because truth is hidden from us as children

our understanding of the world gets more and more bleak as we learn about reality outside of the myths of our society.

This process is bound to give anyone the impression that the world is going to hell in a handbasket tommarow.

[htuttle]

38. That's a good point

As any person ages, they are bound to get more cynical as they learn how the world really works (no matter what time period you live in). I hadn't really thought of that.

OTOH, there really ARE conditions that are leading the world into hell in a handbasket right now. Long term ecological damage, resource depletion, etc.... Things actually DO look empirically more grim than they did 10 years ago (but maybe not 25 years ago, when global nuclear war still seemed so likely). Life may have been hell in the middle ages, but we were unable to destroy the biosphere in the 1300's, and nobody had nukes. I think that the stakes raised greatly during the 20th Century.

Taking the long view, even if all the world's coastal cities get flooded by rising oceans, and even if billions starve to death, it has actually happened to humanity before, and we survived. Unless we actually succeed in killing off the world's oceans through chemical pollution, the species will survive -- and will hopefully be a little wiser for it.

[K-W]

44. Right the consequences of our dysfunction are higher.

Our dysfunction itself isn't.

[datasuspect]

28. look at the time period

starting after WWII up through the mid-70s. a period of tremendous social upheaval, tremendous social change. this happened within the span of many people's lifetimes.

[K-W]

33. Yah before WW2 the US was very socially stable...

Yep, it was just decleration of independence... social stability... WW2.

And why are we only talking about the US. These things happened in civilations since before we knew there was a continent here.

[ultraist]

16. Damn, that's bleak! Are you an existentialist?

I mean you are right on one level, but if we accept we have just some empty existance, then what?

[datasuspect]

19. you don't accept empty existence

you create meaning.

[JanMichael]

25. There are different strains of Existentialists.

I for one am of the Left "Fight like hell all of the time because this is all we've got" wing (Edit: The create your own good meaning version).

There are the others which say "Fuck it man, I don't give a shit, the world is crap and it's not worth my time to fight it, save yourself" wing which can be fun to party with but not much good on campaigns (Or end up spouting off quotes from Ayn Rand...)...

[datasuspect]

29. i'd like to fight

i just question the efficacy of "mainstream" protocols.

[JanMichael]

32. Oh so do I.

You can't beat the system by playing by their rules unless you control the system that makes the rules. Which doesn't happen very often at all.

It's rather fruitless for the impassioned types.

[datasuspect]

34. it leaves only options

that i'd rather not mention on monitored communications like this.

[northamericancitizen]

40. Desperate situations asks for desperate measures ?

I have never been an "extremist" and I absolutely hate violence.

I believe in disrupting the system as often and as efficiently as possible. Wen we use our creativity there is multiple ways on how to achieve our goals.

lise

[datasuspect]

43. these past 5 years

have done much to radicalize me. and i'm not advocating extremism for extremism's sake - i'm talking about a grossly corrupt and exceedingly venal government that really has no qualms about doing this shit RIGHT IN OUR FACES.

at least nixon had the dignity to try and conceal his shenanigans.

[kalibex]

42. I don't suppose that includes...

...dropping out of the Game altogether? (And no, that isn't a metaphor for self-destruction...)

-B

[datasuspect]

45. i'm pretty much off the grid

borrowed computers/library computers the only exception. i reject much of the Game (i think we are talking about the same thing).

[Just Me]

35. And, in your world, everything that happened in the 60's and 70's,...

,...had no impact upon the advancement of minorities and women and the disabled.

In your world.

In my world, the activists of that period shaped our country!!!!

In my world, the activists are continuing to shape our country.

In my world, the effects are lingering rather than extreme or immediate.

In my world, we have much to embrace in having been persistent despite the challenges, challengers and road blocks placed before us by those seeking immediate gratification in asserting gross manipulation and bullying.

I reject your world and believe in my own.

[datasuspect]

36. uhh okay

don't know where THAT came from.

thanks for sharing!

[Just Me]

39. Doh. Your OP nominalizes actions taken and suggests,...well *LOL*,...

,...suggests that such activities aren't impactful ENOUGH and suggests more extreme behavior. In the legal community, there is a word for such incitement,...depending upon what category of "person" you fall under. *Ahem*

[datasuspect]

48. i really don't think they have an impact

look at the last election.

and petitioning the government for redress of grievances is fully protected speech under the first amendment to the constitution of the united states.

but that petitioning gets one arrested nowadays, even if you do it on THEIR terms.

[ultraist]

49. Well, whatever he/she meant, I'm not sure, but...

We are not seeing the type of activity we did in the sixties, that's for sure. We are seeing a lot of compliance and passivity.

And, in the sixties, the government was not totally run by big corps so I do believe the people's voice carried more weight. They have us in balls and chains now, in more than one sense.

[Just Me]

63. The environment is different but the involvement is massive.

The non-violent protests in the last 5 years not only exceed those in the 60's and 70's but also include people across all "classifications", whether it be race, color, creed, class, religion, etc. Moreover, the massive protests have been international!!!!

Seriously, I do believe that you may not be acknowledging what has taken and is taking place: record number protests both here and abroad!!!

Moreover, you also seem to minimize the fact that, but for the courage and sacrifice of those who engaged in the struggle of the 60's and 70's, such things would never have been possible.

Please, do not allow yourself to be drawn into the manipulation of "power-mongers" who want to distract you from "reality". I am telling you,...I am telling you,...I swear to you,...that we, humanity, are having an impact which is so challenging the power-mongers that they will do anything in their power to nominalize it.

[ultraist]

67. I'm not minimizing the efforts of the 60s activists

Not in the least. I'm just saying that the climate was different and massive uprisings had a different impact then.

It's very easy for the gov to write off the voice of the people today. How much impact did those recent protests make? Sure, it sent a message to the world and the current administration, but it didn't seem to shake them. Look at what they are doing.

I'm not saying we shouldn't protest, I'm going to DC for the antiwar rally March 19, but I really don't think it will have the impact that say the Civil Rights marches did.

[northamericancitizen]

51. My understanding of the OP : its more about a state of mind than

a condamnation of what was done in the past.

Datasuspect can correct me if I am wrong but I felt that his words were more about an intectual and emotional frustration of the "here and now".

lise

[datasuspect]

53. an accurate assessment

i really can't understand the impulse to lash out at people around here . . .

[northamericancitizen]

59. Probably a wrong perception about the main idea in the OP...

The art of communication is much more about listening(reading) than to talk.

We have first to check if we got the message and the intention behind the message.

Unfortunately most people will jump to conclusions according to their point of views. A lot of small and big wars were started this way. IMHO.

lise

[K-W]

60. You are asking your readers to "face it"

and yet you wonder why people respond with attitudes if they dont agree with you?

[ultraist]

61. your op is very oblique, you must admit

If you are suggesting considering alternative ways to fight, then just say so. But you're correct, you shouldn't plan any violent or illegal actions on a public board.

So what's your point?

[datasuspect]

62. it's oblique

my point is that we live in a cock fight world we swing around at each other rather than the power structure that relies our infighting to perpetuate its hegemony.

i know this is just off the cuff. i have a lot of ideas about these things that haven't coalesced, but i appreciate your polite inquiry.

and i am trying to figure out what precisely a person can do.

what i wrote came mainly from desperation at seeing so much bullshit going down everyday. and everywhere i go, it just seems like "business as usual."

[ultraist]

70. ahhhh...now I can really relate to the "business is usual" being creepy

and depressing. I have that feeling at times too. I think it's a valid concern.

It's great you are thinking about this. I look forward to hearing your ideas.

[lonestarnot]

71. Organize a million man march with pitchforks and call me in the a..m. n/t

[Just Me]

68. "lash out"? The OP nominalizes all human investment in humanity.

Geez. How can you characterize opposition to such trashing of human energy for humanity as a form of "lashing out" at you?

You are the one "personalizing". No one challenged your worth as a human being, here.