Immagini l'auto colpita dai soldati USA - the car Giuliana was in

[mimitabby]

go to http://www.repubblica.it/
right below the left hand headline, find the script
"Immagini l'auto colpita dai soldati USA"

for a 6 photo series of the car that US troups shot at with Giuliana Sgrena inside

[Mistress Quickly]

1. Well, it definitely

wasn't 400 bullets. Thanks for the link.

[bemildred]

2. Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[frictionlessO]

3. it looks like theres only one or two holes!!

What the hell would that mean?

[mimitabby]

4. the side window is shot out

there are holes in the tires.

[MadHound]

6. Well, it means that a lot of the rumors being tossed around are BS

And it also means that this incident is exactly what it appears to be, a tragic accident brought about by one group of people not quite following protocol over there, confronted by a group of nervous, gun toting soldiers.

Yeah, few bullet holes, little damage to the car, one tire shot out. It looks from these pictures that the soldiers did what they say they did, trying to stop the car and a tragic accident occured. Funny how war is like that.

[DenverDem]

7. Keep telling yourself that

if it makes you feel better.

So does this also prove that we DIDN'T use napalm in Falujah?

[MadHound]

20. And how does your non-sequitor relate,

Other than that is what Sgrena was reporting on? Quite frankly, I believe that we did use napalm in Falujah, for Sgrena wasn't the only one reporting on that story.

However, look at this car and tell me that four hundred rounds were pumped into it, that it was deliberately targeted by a massive barrage of lead. Other than a couple of bullet holes, the windshield is intact. The front lights are whole. There are few holes in the body, and none in the side view we saw(which contradicts accounts that soldiers were pumping lead into the car from the sides). It looks like, aside from the shot out tire, one could get in the car and drive off.

Look friend, I'm just as big a conspiracy freak as anybody, and have withstood many a scorching flame for my beliefs in LIHOP/MIHOP, Kennedy assasination, etc. etc. But even I base my opinions on the reality of the matter, not random conjecture. And from I've read about the incident, despite Sgrena's protestations otherwise, witness' statements simply don't support her story. Besides, don't you think, with a 20mm cannon, bracketed firing range, and plenty of firepower that if the US had wanted Sgrena dead, she would be? C'mon, one round from the 20mm and the whole car would have been history. Instead, they held fire after the initial burst, and spared her life.

Yes, I know that journalists over in Iraq have been making credible claims of being targeted, and it wouldn't suprise me if this was true. However, I don't think that in this specific instance what happened was a botched hit job. I think it was a tragic case of mistaken identity, mistaken protocol, nervous people on all sides, and the tragic consequences when these factors come together.

Now if you can prove me wrong, fine, show me the evidence. But so far, from what I'm seeing, it just isn't so.

[Frederik]

45. Yes

one round of 25mm (if it was indeed a Bradley) would have made toast of the car, but it would have looked rather conspicuous...

[frictionlessO]

8. It does not in any way mean that! It means Sgrenas b/f

may have lied his ass off, for sure.

But a minister in Italy said the car was only going 25 mph. Add that in with all the other actual facts. A plane, A US colonel waiting, the Italians say they did follow protocol.

I think you just went and speculated like those others that were spreading all that "BS" you were on about. And ya know what there is nothing wrong with you or them, doing it.

These photos do not exonerate the troops or their commanders. I wish they did but they don't.

[MadHound]

23. It appears that a lot of the stories being tossed around are false

Sgrena bf says the car is hit by four hundred bullets, but it is obviously not. Witnesses on the scene and US soldiers say the car was going at breakneck speed, which, this being a dangerous road, is apparently a quite common occurence. Then Italian minister says twenty five mph. Some people say that this checkpoint is clearly marked, others that it is a two part check and choke point, etc. etc. etc. With all the stories floating around, one thing is apparent, it was a very very confusing tableau. And in such circumstances, shit, sad to say, happens.

If this was a deliberate hit, hell, why didn't they do the job right, and use that 20mm cannon they had on hand. Easy quick, no fuss, no muss, no witnesses left behind. Instead, I am asked to believe that this confusing melodrama was actually a targeted hit, with random shots being fired around? Please friend, when our uberlords want something or somebody dead, they're a hell of a lot neater than this. Look at 911, they wanted the towers down, with as little collateral damage as possible, and bang, straight down they went. If that can be managed, then whacking an unfriendly journalist would have been a cakewalk, not this mess that we have before us.

I could be wrong, it could have been a hit. But I would like to see some solid evidence for it before I think otherwise.

[frictionlessO]

27. Ok, now that I can get firmly behind and completely agree with.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

[Snivi Yllom]

29. you lost me when you said the WTC was demolished by the government

your first paragraph made sense

after that......:tinfoilhat::crazy:

[MadHound]

33. Well, I guess that is conjecture for another thread

And we can take up all the evidence for and aganst the LIHOP/MIHOP theory there. Or you can go searching for the myriad threads, and my posts, and see for yourself.

The point I'm trying to make is that even to a conspiracy theorist like myself, this one isn't up to the level of a deliberate hit by Bushco. Even I need serious facts to base my opinions on, not just a bunch of rumors and conjecture.

[cliss]

9. Notice how it's always the US SOLDIERS

who are implicated. I do not have any proof that US Soldiers were involved in this. They could be used as Sacrificial Scapegoats in this, like they were in Abu Ghraib.

Just because Scott McClellan was quick to point the finger at them, doesn't mean they did it.

I'll withhold my judgement until I read LOTS of reports, including EUROPEAN reports on this.

[mimitabby]

11. us soldiers

well, I have read plenty of reports and apparently the US soldiers apologized profusely

[cliss]

34. Of course they did.

I wouldn't expect anything less.

Now, watch 2 fairly green, American troops get dragged out and blamed for this incident.

They will have a trial by a military tribunal. They will be found guilty and sent to jail for an unspecified number of years.

Meanwhile, Rumsfeld's clandestine SS operatives will be safely back in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

[daleo]

12. I would be inclined to the opposite conclusion.

Assuming this is the correct car, as I don't read Italian.

But, with less bullet holes and damage the likelihood of hitting all three people, one fatally, by accident goes down. Simple probability theory.

But my first caveat stands. I wouldn't put too much stock into any speculation based entirely on a few photos when the text is in a foreign language.

On edit - Proper forensic evidence (with cross-examination) will tell a lot more than a few photos on the internet. I look forward to this.

[mimitabby]

13. hello

I do read italian. i have been watching the US, British
and italian press over this one.
the headline says images of the car hit by us soldiers.

[daleo]

17. Thanks. I note that the text for each of the 6 photos is the same.

So I guess they don't say much more than that. If you have time, please keep us informed of anything you note of interest from Italian sources in general. I am sure most DUers would find it worthwhile.

[mimitabby]

22. yes, i will

the caption for the photos just says
the car that Nicola Calipari and Giuliano Sgrena were in
with signs of american projectiles.
The images were sent through the web from "Tg1" whatever that
is,
and you're right these photos suck.

[Frederik]

44. How do the

pictures tell you that? Are the pictures incocistent with an attempted assassination?

Nobody knows what the soldiers said they did. We only have the Pentagon's account, which apparently is mendacious as regards the speed of the vehicle, whether it was a checkpoint, and whether warnings were given.

Does an assassination necessarily involve many bullets? We all agree that the car was fired upon, right? The question is what motivated this fire.

The side windows appear to have been shot out. This is consistent with an attack from the side. Calispari, sitting in the back seat, was killed by a bullet through the temple. Which can of course have come from any direction, but which is also consistent with a shot, even a sniper, firing from the side.

I don't know what happened or whether it was intentional, but your dismissal of intention based on these pictures is unfounded.

[Snivi Yllom]

25. it means her claim of 300 shots was baloney

there would be a lot of holes if that many were fired

[Roland99]

26. Pinpoint shots? Wouldn't a car running a checkpoint be blasted

with many rounds?

[MADem]

5. Well, that answers some of my questions about the type of car

they were riding in. No armor, no BP glass, the tires flat, too!

[asjr]

10. I wonder if they looked around for spent bullets

that didn't hit the car.

[shadowknows69]

14. Sniper n/t

[mimitabby]

16. from Reuters:

Italy demands justice from U.S. over Iraq death
08 Mar 2005 19:26:32 GMT

Source: Reuters

(Adds U.S. army saying not advised of rescue mission, para 11)

By Crispian Balmer

ROME, March 8 (Reuters


"APOLOGY

The U.S. military has said its soldiers fired on the Italians' car after it approached a checkpoint at speed and failed to heed signals to slow down."

[understandinglife]

35. Ditto (nt)

[rocktivity]

42. Is that mark on the windshield an actual bullet hole? Wouldn't it be GONE

if the car was fired on from the front?

Unfortnately, it lends creedence to Sgrena's theory that the objective was not to stop the car. If this is the car.

:headbang:
rocknation

[madrchsod]

15. "it sounded like" i think she said

maybe it did sound like that to her. it`s seems they shot at the tires then everyone inside..nothing will change either sides minds. i personally think they were targeted. all of them knew to dam much about the us war crimes. remember there is a free press in europe and people do read newspapers

[roguevalley]

18. its interesting that the last thing the kidnappers told her was to be

'careful of the Americans' because they don't want you let free. They don't like negotiating with kidnappers.

[alfredo]

39. Stockholm Syndrome

describes the behavior of kidnap victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors.

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030324.html

[Frederik]

46. Indeed it does

But she only repeated the words of the kidnappers. The interesting thing is that the kidnappers uttered those words, before that very thing actually befell her.

[alfredo]

48. She probably saved her life by speaking of her distaste of bush's war

They could reference her articles at her paper and see that she was genuine. I don't think the kidnappers would have killed her, and she knew it after a few weeks.

I sure wouldn't die for bush's war. If it was our war, for our safety and security, I would be on the front lines.

[DoYouEverWonder]

19. Notice they never show the whole car

all the pictures are from the front and left side. Since the left window is either rolled down or gone and there are no picture's of the right side of the car or the back, it is not possible to really tell how many bullets hit the car. Keep in mind that the driver lived, so from the looks of the pictures they obviously weren't aiming at the driver. IMHO, that gives even more weight to the theory that either Guiliana or the Italian SS agent were the real targets.

[daleo]

21. That is a good observation.

I had a feeling that the photos could still be hiding something, and your caution lines up with that.

[bemildred]

24. They might be "unofficial" , hence the lack of coverage. nt

[Theres-a]

28. I don't believe it

[Bluebear]

30. When did they "find" the car? I thought it had been "raptured"?

[mimitabby]

31. the italian press

yesterday the italian press said the car was on its way to Rome
today it is apparently there.
(I don't know where it was when the photos were taken)
it was the american press that didn't know where the car is.
We still don't know the name of the other person(s) in the car, btw.

[Pooka Fey]

32. I thought General Tommy Franks' dog ate it.

[AValdoux]

36. Italian Perception

I saw an interview on Democracy Now Monday with one of the founders of the newspaper Sgrena worked for. She described the mood in Italy, as angry. She explained they don't think Sgrena was intentionally targeted, but the civillan deaths in Iraq have an italian face now. Their opposition to the war is mostly now how it is being run so poorly.

AValdoux

[rzemanfl]

37. I thought they were supposed to have shot at the engine block to

stop the car. Pictures show nothing having hit the engine area. Either piss poor shooting or they were aiming at the occupants. Shooting the tires is probably not going to stop a suicide bomber, its not like he's worried about wrecking his rims or throwing off his alignment.

[Ms. Clio]

38. Thanks, Mimi, although I think those are incredibly poor photos

And where are the "10 or 20" bullets into the engine block that we first heard about?

And is the interior covered with blood?

Very curious.

[Joanne98]

40. I can't believe anybody is doubting this story!

Of course Bush is killing reporters. We've been bombing Al_Jazzeerra, the hotels their in. How many have died ? 27? Have any Faux reporters died? No! That CNN executive was telling the truth. BUSH IS MURDERING JOURNALISTS! DUH! She was probably shot at by US intell. The CIA jackals or something. I just hope we finally get a break, which can only happen if somebody stands up and gets a backbone. I hope the Italians wake up too! We need to see the car and get the troops names. If they want to patsy someone let them go right ahead. The more you make them coverup the better chance of catching them. Keep your fingers crossed. This may be the one that makes it through.

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. Watch this video

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/mazen_dana.mpg

It has a bit of the footage that Mazen Dana was filming when he got shot by US Troops in front of Abu Ghraib. Of course, you won't see this tape run over and over on the nightly news.

[rocktivity]

43. Washington DC, you have a problem.

the windshield is merely dented, the dashboard looks intact, the side windows are damagd. If this is the car, stopping it was NOT the objective.

:headbang:
rocknation

[not fooled]

54. Hey, yeah...

...wasn't the initial official story from the US military that the engine block was targeted in order to simply stop the car (passengers getting hit was therefore an unfortunate accident)? Photos certainly don't indicate that the hood was targeted; rather, the side windows (= route to passengers) were.:scared:

[paineinthearse]

47. Cross-link to other DU thread with fake photo?

Yesterday I read another post with a photo of the purported get away car. Its origin was a freeper weblog. Anyone have a link to that one?

It would be invaluable if the mods were to combine the two halves into a DU whole.

[Ms. Clio]

51. Link to the fake photo thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3234761

[zeemike]

49. I don't know if anyone has pointed this out

But the fact that the windows are shot out and no bullet holes in the body tells me it was done from a fairly close range and most likely not a fast moving target.

[Ms. Clio]

52. Very interesting observation

I believe that I read Sgrena or somebody saying that in fact their vehicle had halted after the light flashed at them.

[reality based]

50. These pictures show the left side of the car.

The Italian Foreign Minister said that a strong light came from the right side of the road where the shooting occurred and that probably several automatic weapons were fired for 10-15 seconds. He apparently did not say that the firing amounted to 400 rounds nor that they all struck the car. The car had been operating with its interior lights on to facilitate passage through checkpoints. http://www.liberation.com/page.php?Article=280864

[Ms. Clio]

53. Wow, thanks for pointing that out

Indeed, what does the OTHER side of that car look like???

It sure doesn't sound like the usual "checkpoint incident" at all, if the gunfire came at the side of the vehicle? Yesterday somebody posted a picture of a car involved in one of those apparently daily tragedies, and the front windshield was just riddled with bullet holes.

[magellan]

55. Can anyone identify the make and model of the car from the photos?

Just curious to know how common a car it might be in Iraq....

[countryjake]

56. Looks like that Bradley missed the engine block!

"The U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division said soldiers at the checkpoint used hand signals and warning shots to stop the car, finally resorting to shots to the engine block."

Sure wish those pics had shown the right side of the car, since that is the side Italy is saying the attack came from. If this is really the vehicle in question, I'd say things aren't looking too good for the soldiers who were manning that impromptu evening checkpoint.

[mimitabby]

57. more from the Corriere italian newpaper

translation by me



there are the marks of blood on the upholstery, splattered in many places
between the rear seats and the inside of the windows. there are the fragments
of the windows that rained on those same seats and on the floor, many, uncountable numbers.
of 4 windows, only one remains whole, the rear left. the windows on the right side are both
exploded, it could have been all of those splinters that gave them the idea of a shower
of bullets - this was the description tht Giulian Sgrena and the Sismi police officer that
drove the car gave. also the backwindow is gone. but the fragments of this indicate that it was expelled
outward. Inside the car, on the right rear seat where Calipari sat,
a bottle of mineral water was overturned. the seat belt remains hanging,
a little pulled out. on the left, where the woman sat, more or less at half height
of the back rest, is a bullet hole from a bullet that went who knows where.
to see it, one imagines that Giuliana Sgrena is alive by a miracle.

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Esteri/2005/03_Marzo/09/inchiesta.shtml

[mimitabby]

58. and another paragraph, sorry, this is work

On the outside of the metallic grey Corolla that seems almost white,
the few signs of the shooting are all on the right side. This is because
this is the side from which americans opened fire.
there's a hole on the outside, the side of the hood, another near
the wheel, another on the windor, always on the outside, a few centimeters
from the ground. perhaps there is another mark on the hood left by another bullet.
the hypothesis of trajectories, all that it must signify according to the investigators
that have examined the photos, that the rest of hits, for howmany there might have been
the soldiers from the check point shot directly into the inside of the vehicle, breaking the
windows. One thing appears certain, from the first instant
the front of the toyota stopped within a few hundred meters of the airport is just about
perfect. the front does NOT show holes, and that's what covered the motor.

[Frederik]

59. I believe

an Italian DUer wrote that this was not the car after all, that the real car was an SUV. Any news on that in the Italian media? With the detailed description in the Corriere, it does seem like this is the one.

[mimitabby]

61. i hadn't heard that.

can you find the thread? the two major papers are saying it's this toyota.

[Frederik]

69. The it probably is.

[mimitabby]

60. more translation.. phew

Images which contrast with the version furnished by the USA. Other than
to say that the Toyota Corolla "was moving at a high velocity" and that
"they didn't stop after a series of warnings" circumstances rejectd by
the minister of Foreign (affairs?) Fini during the reconstruction yesterday
at Parliament - the American military sources sustained that the soldiers " shot
at the motor block to stop the car" the photos gathered in Italy say that
it didn't happen that way. In fact, the headlights remain intact,
and even the toyota decal. on the windshield, the windshield wipers
are still stopped where the motor was shut off, while they were working.
And in the glass, there is ahole left by a bullet with the typical spiderweb
inside, left there perhaps by a rebound. Right in front of the steering wheel.
On the driver's sidewindow at the bottom of the window, near where there is usually
the doorlock, you can see the sheet metal has been gouged by a hit, maybe
the same one that went through the windshield.
The fate of the police officer that drove the car, after seeing this, his being
alive is another miracle.

[mimitabby]

62. the last part

Fini had referred " the Driver noted hits tracing visibly
in front of his chest and above his legs" another confirmed that
the projectiles came from the right, and therefore couldn't find
an explanation for the fact that the left front wheel of the Corolla was hit
as you can see from the photo. The tire appears to be flat and detached
from the rim, but if this had happened as a result of the same
shooting, it was an anomaly from the rest of the signs of "friendly fire"

only the technical survey, if we can actually look at the car and not
just from a photo, they'll be able to explain better what really happened
during that tragic evening in which Nicola Calipari was killed.

[Ms. Clio]

64. Thanks very much for that excellent translation

Who owns that newspaper? I heard that Berlusconi controls something like 90% of the Italian media?

[reality based]

67. Berlusconi's media empire

is discussed here http://www.ketupa.net/berlusconi.htm
He owns Il Giornale but not the major papers La Stampa,Corriere della Sera or La Repubblica. He owms most of the private radio and TV in Italy which is greatly relied upon by the Italian public for their news.

[Ms. Clio]

68. Thanks very much for t hat information n/t

[MGKrebs]

66. Nice job mimitabby. Thanks.

I am glad to see that the Italians ended up with the car. I suspect they are more likely to approach this critically than a US military investigation would be.

In the end though, as someone else pointed out, it's difficult to imagine any outcome other than a couple of grunts taking the fall, deserved or not.

[NYC]

71. mimitabby, questions.

Thank you for all your translating efforts. Very helpful.

I have not seen the following information. Perhaps you have.

There were 4 people in the car. Calipari back right seat, Sgrena back left seat.

Driver and front passenger seat were occupied, I assume.

One of the people went home with Sgrena, while the other remained in a hospital in Baghdad, because he was not well enough to return to Italy.

Which person returned to Italy with Sgrena: the driver or the front seat passenger?

What has become of the person who remained in the Baghdad hospital?

Thank you in advance for whatever information you have. :hi:

[reality based]

63. Rules of engagement

Haven't I read somewhere that our checkpoint procedures call for shooting warning shots first, then into the engine to stop the vehicle? That might explain a discrepancy between the shots heard and the bullet holes observed. It would be absurd, to coin a phrase, to expect the victims to have accurately counted the automatic weapons rounds at the time of the incident. I suspect that some projections are being made by the Italians based on the perceived length of time the firing lasted and the number of the assailants' automatic weapons observed by the survivors. As to the reported absence of damage to the front of the car where the engine is, there may be several possible conclusions: (1)our boys are terrible shots, (2)the rounds went where they were intended, or (3)the communist witch reporter magically drew the bullets into the passenger compartment for propaganda purposes. Where will the faith based arbiters of truth come down?

[RaleighNCDUer]

65. OK, how's this scenario.

The vehicle is approaching a checkpoint. A hundred meters away a sniper opens up on the vehicle. The checkpoint, reacting to the gunshots, open fire, mostly in accordance with procedure, firing in air as a warning. The vehicle stops immediately. The soldiers from the checkpoint approach the car, recognizing that the occupants are not Iraqi, and apologize profusely. The sniper slips away in the dark.

Yes, the US has targeted reporters prior to this, but not allied reporters -- targeted reporters have been with AlJazeera or non-aligned news organizations.

I think the target was the intelligence officer, who has successfully negotiated with the insurgents on more than one occasion, thus in the eyes of the occupation forces undermining the US stand on not negotiating. Negotiating and paying off insurgents rewards their actions and gives them legitimacy -- can't have it.

I would also like to see the right side of the car, and a full front shot of the grill. What the pictures show do not indicate it was fired on as it approached a checkpoint head on.

Now I take off my tinfoil hat and return to work.

[MADem]

70. That is a possible scenario, certainly

You hear one shot, and everyone just turns and lights it up--you don't wait, you just react. It could be deliberate, it could be accidental foolishness--all I know is that our government is not being very forthcoming with information, is blaming the hostage, and is subtly carping (for internal, within-the-US consumption only) about the Italian willingness to pay ransoms. Last time I checked, they weren't the 51st state, so if they want to do that, it's their right.

Until the crew responsible for that damage and the death of the Italian agent is interviewed, and until the forensics team goes over that car with a fine-toothed comb, all we can do is wonder and ask questions. I'm not very optimistic that we'll get real answers, though.