If the South woulda won, we'd had it made

[RagingInMiami]

I like this song even though I personally don't believe that "we woulda been better off" if the south would have won.

But should people be forced to draw a line between politics, personal beliefs and music?

If the South woulda won, we'd had it made
Hank Williams Jr.

If the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
The day Elvis passed away would be our national holiday.
If the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
I'd make my surpreme court down in Texas and we wouldn't have no killers getting off free.
If they were proven guilty then they would swing quickly,
instead of writin' books and smilin' on T.V.
We'd all learn cajan cookin' in Luiousiana
and I'd put that capital back in Alabama.
We'd put Florida on the right track, 'cause we'd take Miami back
and throw all them pushers in the slammer.


Oh if the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
The day young Skynyrd died, we'd show our southern pride.
If the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
"Play alittle dixieland boys. Ah yes!"


I'd have all the whiskey made in Tennessee
and all the horses raised in those Kentucky hills.
The national treasury would be in Tupilo, Mississippi
and I'd put Hank Williams picture on one hundred dollar bill.
I'd have all the cars made in the Carolina's
and I'd ban all the ones made in China.
I'd have every girl child sent to Georgia to learn to smile
and talk with that southern accent that drives men wild.
I'd have all the fiddles made in Virginia, 'cause they sure can make 'em sound so fine.
I'm going up on Wolverton Mountain and see ole Cliften Clowers and have a sip of his good ole Arkansas wine.


Hey if the south woulda won we'd a had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
When Patsy Cline passed away that would be our national holiday.
If the south woulda won we'd a had it made.
Olay he hee hee . I said if the south wouda won we would a had it made!


Might even be better off!

[Redstone]

1. Are there any other books about that?

I've only ever seen two "speculative fiction" books about this subject.

One was McKinlay Kantor's and I don't remember the title of the other.

Anyone know of any?

Redstone

[forgethell]

4. Harry Turtledove

wrote an entire series of books about it. "How Few Remain" is the only one whose title I can recall, as I have not read the books. He pissed me off in the "World War" series. They're very popular though.

Then there was a book some years ago called "If the South Had Won the Civil War".

There's lots of stuff out there.

[neverforget]

118. I've read the Civil War and First World War series by Turtledove

and liked them. I'm waiting until he finishes the WW2 series before I start that.

Alternative history has always fascinated me. If one battle had turned out differently or someone died earlier than they did, history could be really different. History is so very tenuous.

[Lone Pawn]

125. Did you read his American Empire series?

It's about the period between the Great War and WW2.

[neverforget]

128. Not yet. I have it but I have a group of other books ahead of them

to read. I am looking forward to it though.

[knight_of_the_star]

132. That one is good

Kind of scary how the Freedom Party takes power, it's so eery when you think about it.

[Jack_DeLeon]

121. How did he piss you off with the World War series?

I loved that series.

[forgethell]

124. The vile

and despicable Sam Yeager.

[Worst Username Ever]

10. There is a movie by Spike Lee, "The Confederate States of America."

n/t

[kk897]

52. I've heard about the movie...

do you know if it has been released yet? Did it go straight to video or something? Or maybe only play NYC and LA?

[Worst Username Ever]

87. http://www.csathemovie.com/

http://www.csathemovie.com/

[kk897]

98. ah, thanks. But it's not a Spike Lee joint--

this site, anyway, says that it's written and directed by Kevin Willmott.

[Brewman_Jax]

75. The movie is by Kevin Willmott

info at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/

[ultraist]

100. Right, it's not a Spike Lee movie

Here is one review:

http://www.reel.com/movie.asp?MID=138890&Tab=reviews&CID=13

Confederate States of America (2004)
What fate would have befallen the United States had the South won the Civil War? That is the provocative question writer/director Kevin Wilmott attempts to answer in his brilliantly conceived faux documentary, CSA: Confederate States of America. While at 91 minutes that include an incendiary collection of phony commercials, this deadly serious satire continues long after it's made its point, there is no denying its power to provoke thought and, hopefully, a dialogue among the races in this country that is long overdue.
Modeled after a Ken Burns-style documentary, Wilmott presents his fictional doc as a British product making its controversial TV debut in the Confederate State of America. This is a country where the Gray side proved triumphant, where the Great Emancipator Abraham Lincoln, instead of dying by an assassin's bullet at Ford's Theater, fled in surrender to Canada. Slavery is so enshrined that slaves are bought and sold over the Internet, the country sided with Hitler during World War II, and there's an ongoing cold war with Canada, the country to which escaping slaves and abolitionists have traditionally fled. CSA's power extends to Central and South America where a system of apartheid separates the white, North American ruling class from the region's indigenous population. And in the 21st century, CSA's women still don't have the right to vote.

Wilmott leaves nothing out of his perfectly realized re-creation of this alternate history. As talking-head historians explain the events of the past 140 years, there are archival photos, old newspaper accounts and editorial cartoons, and dramatized scenes. There are clips from a fiction D.W. Griffith movie, The Hunt for Dishonest Abe and '50s-era sitcom, Leave It to Beulah. Interspersed throughout are ads for such products as Darkie toothpaste, Coon Chicken Inn and others, most of which were at one time actual products sold in the United States.

At a time when so many people still defend the Confederate flag and insist on putting the Civil War in terms of "states' rights," CSA explicates the full implications of those positions. In satirizing history, Wilmott lays down a gauntlet, indicting ingrained attitudes and prejudices, and daring us all to do something about it.


— JAMES PLATH

[ultraist]

12. I'm sure there are pieces of speculative commentary on this

The NeoConfederate movement, intiated by several professors, pushes revisionist history with the regard to the Civil War. That movement has morphed into several Hate groups including the League of the South.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has NeoConfederate groups listed in their Intelligence Report, as Hate Groups.

The song in the OP sounds like a spin off of that school of thought. It's despicable to promote, the South "should have won" therefore, slavery should not have ended.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=510

The Ideologues
Who are the intellectuals who form the core of the modern neo-Confederate movement? And what exactly do they think?
By Heidi Beirich and Mark Potok

The contemporary neo-Confederate movement grew largely out of the ideas of a very specific set of Southern intellectuals, many of them professors at Southern universities and colleges.

Even before the movement began to take organizational shape with the 1994 formation of the League of the South (LOS), several members of this group of mainly white men were well along in an attempt to dramatically revise mainstream historical thinking about the culture and politics of the South, the nature of slavery, the causes of the Civil War, and the role of the federal government.

As a general matter, most of the thinkers profiled below support the South's right to secede; believe the North started the Civil War over tariff issues or states' rights, not slavery; say that President Lincoln always secretly intended the war as a way to rob the states of their power and create a federal behemoth, and only used the slavery question as an excuse; and, in at least some cases, see the civil rights era as an evil because it had the effect of increasing federal power relative to that of the states.

[Redstone]

49. Yuck. Thanks for the warning.

I'm interested in pure speculative fiction on this subject, not "How great things would have been for white people if the south had won."

I'll stay away from the folks you cited.

Redstone

[ThorsHammer]

27. Dixie Victorious

It focuses solely on the military aspects, and how if certain things were done differently the South could have won. It's definitely a good book to read for anyone who is interested in military history.

[MrModerate]

40. What's the McKinlay Kantor one?

I've read "Andersonville" -- THE great American novel, in my opinion, but I'm not aware of one about the south winning.

[Redstone]

47. It's called "If the South Had Won the Civil War"

not surprisingly. It's hard to find.

The other book I read was not some southern jingoism (which I'm not interested in); I remember it painting a pretty bleak picture about conditions in both the North and the South.

Redstone

PS: Thanks, all for theinformation.

[Terran]

99. There's also "Bring the Jubilee" by Ward Moore

A very detailed scenario in which the North had to accept punitive measures as a consequence of losing that put it in a permanent state of economic crisis (this is set some 60 years after the war), while the Confederacy grew huge and wealthy because it forced several new states to accept slavery, including California, and then conquered Mexico ands Cuba. African-Americans did not fare well, subsequently, in either nation. It's kind of depressing.

[Redstone]

135. Thank you!

That was the book I had read, but had forgotten the title of!

Redstone

[skids]

2. You're allowed...

...to entertain fantasies (essentially "daydream").

I'm sure noone agrees with the actions of the characters of "Natural Born Killers" but we empathised with them anyway. Perhaps that's an extreme example, as I don't mean to equate confederatism with serial killing. But you get my general point.

[MrModerate]

44. Maybe YOU emphathized with them.

But that movie is the one that made me swear I'd never watch Stone's work again. What a piece of vomitous garbage!

[DeaconBlues]

3. You sure as Hell can tell that the guy who wrote that is white n/t

[Clark2008]

5. I thought all the whiskey was made in Tennessee (or Kentucky)

anyway.

:P

[Stop_the_War]

6. that is disgusting IMHO

The South was a regime that enslaved millions of people.

:puke: :puke:

[Warpy]

13. While the north made them wage slaves

and paid them starvation wages.

Let's face it, before the rise of unions, most of this country was a pretty rotten place for all but the people who got here first, took the best land away from the Indians, and got rich off it.

Shoot, I think Lincoln was dead wrong, simply because he didn't see a future in which mechanization would have made the slave system relatively unprofitable.

If he had let Dixie GO, they would have preserved their educated class, eventually discarded slavery in favor of mechanization, and progressed beyond all the deeply ingrained cultural resentments that keep them sending horrible politicians to Washington to piss off the Yankees (which is the only reason Helms kept getting returned).

War is rarely the answer to anything, and generally ends up causing more problems than it solves.

[RagingInMiami]

14. Ah yes, the part of history they don't teach us in school

[bvar22]

32. As long as we are being devisive,

....the North was a regime that committed Genocide against the Native Americans. After freeing the Blackman(ha) in the South, the North (the same soldiers, officers, Armies, and political leaders) turned their cold blooded sights on the extermination of the Redman. This particular act of genocide was committed exclusively by the North.


Ironic isn't it.

[ultraist]

55. The South didn't commit genocide against Indians?

I hope that's not what you are saying because that is incorrect. The South stole lands from Indians and killed them off. Ever hear of the:

The Cherokee Indians of Georgia?
The Indian Removal Act?
Trail of Tears?
Andrew Jackson?
TN Congressman Davy Crockett?

There's more about the South's participation in genocide against the Indians.

There were Indians living in the South. Do you think they were just left alone?

[bvar22]

69. The final drive for the "extermination" of the ...

...Native Americans after 1865 was the exclusive province of the Northern Armies and the Northern politicians.
The Armies of the South had been disbanded, and the South had NO political power.

I haven't argued that racism did not exist in the South. It surely did.
I DO get pissed when self-righteous, ignorant, divisive Northerners point their finger at the South and scream racists and bigots without confronting the evils of their own past.

It is undeniable that the final stage of the genocide of the Native Americans was perpetrated exclusively by the NORTH.

Remove the beam.....

BTW: I live in the bluest part Minnesota.

Edited to Add: Hate the song. I also hate divisive politics and bigotry in all its shapes and colors. I am also aware that by hating bigots, I have become one.

[ultraist]

105. The North had won the Civil war by then & the Fed gov set up reservations

I don't understand your point that the North was exclusively responsible for genocide against Indians post 1865. The North had established the Federal Government powers, post civil war and ordered all Indians to reservations, because by that point, the Indians had been fairly well defeated militarily.

There are many reservations in the South and the Indians were treated horribly. Conditions still are horrendous.

First you say, the North was totally responsible for genocide against the Indians, then you change that to say they were post 1865. I'm sorry, but the South was not sinless against the Indians post 1865.

This thread is about the South. No one has said that racism didn't and doesn't exist in the North. It most certainly did and does.

I also don't understand your logic by trying to miminimize the South's role in genocide against the Indians to justify the racism against Blacks in the South. There is a huge disconnect there.

As far as hating bigots, should we love and embrace bigots? Should we welcome KKK people who kill Gays, Blacks, and Jews? Or should we despise that? I have no respect or tolerance for bigots. Outrage against inequality and attrocities is healthy, IMO. Passiveness or apathy is not.

[bvar22]

112. There is no point in marginalizing the South.

Senator Kerry was reported to have said that he could win without the South. I don't want to win without the South. I want to go to the South, and I'm going to say to white guys that drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back of their car, "We want your vote too, because your kids don't have health insurance either."---Howard Dean

http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_Dean_Sacramento_Speech_15March2003.htm

"We're not going to concede the South," the new chairman of the Democratic National Committee told an overflow crowd of more than 900 people in a dining room that was set up for 800 in the Clarion hotel near downtown Jackson.
"The South will rise again, and when it does, it will have a D after its name," Dean said to applause from the diverse crowd of blacks and whites.
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/11025163.htm

But most of all, together, we have to rebuild the American community. We will never succeed by treating our nation as a collection of separate regions or separate groups. There are no red states or blues states, only American states. And we must talk to the people in all of these states as members of one community.

http://www.patridiots.com/001391.html


Dean said today Democrats need to appeal to working-class whites and blacks in the South.

In Mississippi, Democrats hold more county elected positions and legislative seats than Republicans.

"I think it's disrespectful for Democrats not to come to Mississippi and talk about our issues," Dean said.

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050225/NEWS01/50225018


These voters, characterized by Dean as pick-up truck driving, confederate flag waving, gun totting, poor white southerners, are an excellent target group for Democrats. They did not directly benefit from the tax cut and they are fiercely patriotic, but they question President Bush's Iraqi nation building. The problem is that Southerners do not trust Democrats on social issues. They see the national party as anti-gun and anti-religious. And it is these two cultural issues that prompted them to reject an authentic Southerner like Al Gore for a Yankee Connecticut transplant with an affected Texas accent, like George Bush. Howard Dean's point -- that Dems need to court poor Southern voters -- is 100 percent correct. (Although perhaps he should have used a less colorful image, like a NASCAR sticker instead of the confederate flag.) Democrats will lose unless they can pick off a few Southern states, and marginalizing poor white Southerners is the fastest way to last place.

http://www.thesimon.com/magazine/articles/article_of_the_week/0329_howard_dean_right_it_death_dems_without_dixie.html

I am amazed by the frequency, ferocity, and ignorance of the Anti-South threads that are popular on DU.
It is vitally important that we reclaim the South for the Democratic Party, and not abandon the South to the REAL bigots of the Republican Party. To reclaim the South, our own house must be in order.


ON EDIT: I am NOT a Deaniac. I voted (caucus) for Kucinich.
I do support Dean's plan for the salvation of the Democratic Party.

[ultraist]

117. First of all, nice post

Secondly, I don't think we should marginalize the South, although I do believe we should discuss history in an honest fashion. Miminizing racism is not necessary.

I also agree, that some here unfairly stereotype the entire south and all southerners. I find that amusing, because some of these same northerners are less informed about racism than I am!

I was very disappointed with the Kerry campaign not spending any time or money to speak of in my state of NC. I think it was a huge mistake.

I agree with Dean, that we need to work every state. Writng off the South is suicide.

edit to add:
I supported John Edwards, my Senator at the time, during the primaries. ;)

[RagingInMiami]

136. Good post

I am sick of the anti-south threads as well. And I'm not what you would consider a typical southerner.
I was born in Miami to a Colombian immigrant mother and Virginian father.
I'm more yankee in my attitude, but I happen to understand southern culture.

[libhill]

127. Actually

The South was no Friend of the "Red Man" either. I have read an account of a troop of Confederate cavalry in Texas, for example, who launched an unprovoked attack on a group of Kiowas who were only passing through Texas on their way to Mexico, in search of better hunting grounds. And the Texas Confederates also had a habit of offering Texas Unionists who refused to fight in their little war, a choice between prison, or serving in units like the Texas Mounted Rifles, who were sent to the frontier to fight Comanches.

[bicentennial_baby]

116. Which wouldn't have been possible without

the money and shipping industry of the North...says this Massachusetts native. My peeps were just as culpable in the enslavement as the South. Hey, people in MA even owned slaves too!

[Melynn]

134. I'm glad someone finally wrote that.

The Confederacy was an evil regime that enslaved millions of people for the economic benefit of a few. And I had ancestors who fought for the South and I am a Southern by birth but I reject the Confederacy and everything it stood for.

[booksenkatz]

7. Well, the South's winning NOW, that's for sure

The South has the thumbs up/down on all who wish to become president. I'd say that's a helluva lot of power, myself! I think we can expect all future preznits to have drawls, y'all.

Edited to add: the day that Patsy Cline died (March 5th) is definitely a personal day of mourning for me!

[forgethell]

120. all futrue Democratic presidents,

certainly. It is unlikely anybody from Mass. will ever win the preisidency in the next 30 years, IMO.

[RubyDuby in GA]

8. Um....no

This is pretty much the only thing I agree with:

I'd have every girl child sent to Georgia to learn to smile
and talk with that southern accent that drives men wild.

Oh yeah, and making the day Patsy Cline died a national holiday. But other than those things, um......agreeing not so much.....

[JHB]

9. I'll give Hank Williams Jr. his fantasy...

...'casue I'm sure he knows better than that "If they were proven guilty" line about his romanticization of Texas justice. You can prove anything when the defense attorney is sleeping.

[southpaw]

11. I despise 'Bocephus'

Those lyrics are nauseating, condescending, and indicative of the type of ignorance Hank Jr. and his fans are famous for.

Reminds me of a joke:

Q: What has six teeth and an I.Q. of 50?

A: The front row at a Hank Jr. concert.


Sorry to be so harsh, but I grew up in rural Alabama surrounded by Hank Jr. fans. :puke:

[ultraist]

15. It's cloaked white supremacy

More NeoConfederate, "Southern Heritage", BS which is simply a veneer for White supremacy.

It IS disgusting and condescending.

[RubyDuby in GA]

18. Not harsh at all

and that boob Toby Keith is taking up where Bocephus left off.

[Redstone]

53. Thank you, southpaw

For letting me know that I'm not the only one who can't stand Hank Jr.

For the first part of his career, pretty much EVERY song he did had the same subject: "I'm Hank Williams' son."

And are you OVER enough when your big career move is to sing about Monday Night Football?

Redstone

[southpaw]

73. "I'm Hank Williams' Son"

A man I used to work for once quipped about Hank Jr.: "If it weren't for himself and his father, he'd have nothing to sing about."

What a maroon!

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

16. southern accents drive men wild?

not this one-there's no bigger turn-off to me than to see an attractive girl open her mouth and hear that nasally, redneck whine come out. it's like nails on a chalkboard

anf here on the wv-ky border, it happens a lot

[RubyDuby in GA]

20. Now suggah

It's not a "redneck whine", we have drawls. But then again, I see you're fron the WV-KY border. That explains everything. Gotta come down further into the Deep South for that moonlight and magnolias darlin' :)

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

26. right-i guess there is a distinction between redneck and southern

and not everyone here talk like that, either-only the bush-supporting types

[Clark2008]

21. I have a Southern drawl, but it's not twangy.

Depends on where you're from and your education.
I'm a city girl - the twang's not in me. ;)

[davidinalameda]

24. I have that same accent

spent too much time in your neck of the woods

went to school at Marshall

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

28. marshall, eh?

that's where i am now

[davidinalameda]

76. it's a pretty good school

just stay away from the Repukes on campus

the campus is/was pretty conservative when I was there

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

96. it still is

probably even more so than when you were here

[kk897]

17. Yes, and if the South would have won, perhaps even more people

would have been enslaved, tortured by their "owners," etc. Yep, might have been better off-- if you're a sadist, for instance.

Ummm...what's your point in posting this?

[RagingInMiami]

19. My point or my question was

"should people be forced to draw a line between politics, personal beliefs and music?"

It was not "do you agree with these lyrics".

[datasuspect]

23. it seems no one read that most relevant part of your post

erggh

[RagingInMiami]

25. I guess in hindsight, that was "the point" of my post

[ultraist]

30. So your point in posting a racist song was to ask if we support

freedom of speech?

Are you asking if music should be censored by the Government? Of course not.

Most Democrats strongly support Freedom of Speech. Did you need to post a white supremacy song to intiate this discussion?

[RagingInMiami]

42. My question to you is

Do you consider me a "good liberal" because I enjoy listening to this song?

Or am I a white supremacist?

[ultraist]

61. You are asking me to judge you based on one song you like?

For real? If you are trying to lay a trap, you are not being very crafty about it.

Read my other posts here and it's clear on what I think of that song.

[RagingInMiami]

74. I'm not really asking you to judge me on one song

I was hoping you wouldn't. But I was also wondering if you or anybody else on DU would.

[ultraist]

83. Well, Stormfront White Nationalist Hate group endorses the song

Should people be judged on liking Hate music?

Do you like the music or the lyrics? I'd be concerned if you liked the lyrics and wanted to support music like this by buying it. It all comes down to being honest and aware.

There are different levels of awareness about anything, including racism. I wouldn't automatically consider someone who lacked some awareness (and education) on racism a racist.

If the person seeks to increase their awareness and believes that is important, as well as supports Civil Rights, I would take this into consideration.

[libhill]

130. Jesus H. Christ people

This thread is getting ridiculous - separate the art from the artist for Christ sake - I happen to be a fan of Charlton Heston epics, but I don't believe that means I have to endorse the guys politics, or run out and join the N.R.A so I can keep a fucking arsenal in my home. The dude digs this song, so the fuck what - it doesn't make him a racist or a Hank Jr. fan - give it a rest.

[kk897]

34. Hm. maybe your thread title should have been that question.

I saw the question and thought it was merely rhetorical, and that this was a flamebait thread. Sorry I misread it.

OK, back to your question: "should people be FORCED to draw a line..." (emphasis mine). Who's forcing anyone to draw lines?

I personally could not like a song with those lyrics no matter how catchy the tune. I would just become infuriated every time I heard it. So at least in this case I guess I would say that I would draw that line for myself. But certainly nobody's making me draw the line.

I guess I'm still not seeing your point? Are you feeling that people on DU are trying to coerce you to not listen to certain kinds of music?

[RagingInMiami]

37. Nobody is going to coerce me into doing anything I don't want

And when I say "forced", I meant that it would come within themselves as in should people feel guilty about liking certain groups or songs or movies that do not fall into their realm of politics?

You see, I view that song as entertaining. I like the tune and the honesty. I like its political uncorrectness. It's a musician expressing himself and not worried about who he offends.

And no, I don't agree with it, but he's not a politician trying to win votes.

It's obvious that it's purely fantasy and it comes across that way if you ever get a chance to hear it. It has a jazzy feel to it.

That song was just an example. I would be surprised if anybody on DU came forward and admitting to liking it.

[ultraist]

43. What's "honest" about that song?

You like the "honesty?" What honesty? It's white supremacy veiled in "Southern Pride." That's not honest.

[RagingInMiami]

45. He's being honest about how he feels

[ultraist]

60. There is a lot of intellectual DIShonesty in that song

Maybe he believes it, but that only reveals his ignorance.

[RagingInMiami]

63. Some of us listen to music for the emotional value

not necessarily for the intellectual stimulation it provides (or doesn't).

[ultraist]

92. I think it's reckless to listen only for emotional value

and fill your mind with racist themes for pleasure. You are what you eat, so to speak.

Personally, I would find no enjoyment or emotional value in hearing racist lyrics regardless of how good the music was.

[kk897]

50. So, "Should people feel guilty about liking non-progressive

entertainment?" Is that what you're asking about?

For my part, I do enjoy some movies that aren't exactly feminist in outlook, even though I consider myself to be a feminist. Sometimes I feel guilty about it, though.

It sounds to me like you are really making a statement: "people should not feel guilty about liking entertainment that isn't politically progressive." You state that you like that song and you don't feel guilty about it and that no one's going to force you to feel guilty about it.

Are you actually soliciting other opinions on the matter, or are you simply making a statement for others to react to?

[RagingInMiami]

57. I really don't know how many times I can rephrase the question

to make you understand because no matter what, you're going to read between the lines and come up with your own version of my intention.

[kk897]

62. No, I'm really trying to understand, believe it or not.

I don't know what your intentions are, which is why I asked.

If I may make an observation, it seems like you knew this would be a controversial post and that you wished to make a provocative statement. Is that much true?

It seems that you're trying to say that you're not a racist if you like that song. Is that true?

Do you see that as similar to me liking movies that aren't feminist in outlook even though I'm a feminist?

Honestly, I think perhaps you're just not stating your intentions in a way that many of us can understand. Just superficially, your original post seems intentionally antagonistic, but I'm willing to try to see it your way, if maybe you can help me out.

[RagingInMiami]

67. I knew it would create a stir

But I also knew it would create discussion, which is the reason I posted it.

As liberals, sometimes we tend to be just as stereotypical about certain things as repubs are. There is a lot of stereotype about the south, especially about southern pride.

To me, that song is about southern pride, which does not necessarily mean white supremacy.

[kk897]

82. I see. Thank you for the clarification.

I think maybe you could have made your point using a less inflamatory example that would have promoted discussion. But I do see that sometimes liberals can be as dogmatic as conservatives. In this particular case, I see it more as a matter of the people in this thread deconstructing the song and using their intellect to discern the song's underpinnings, rather than being dogmatic.

Occasionally on DU I see stereotyping going on, and it tends to be in the vein of probably well-intentioned but basically racist posts (of those who don't understand the concept of institutionalized white privlege). To a lesser extent, there is a stereotyping of Southerners as stupid hicks, or of military people as bloodthirsty (but that seems the rarest kind).

I agree that stereotyping isn't a good thing to engage in. I'd urge fans of this song to take a closer look, however, and try to see it from another perspective. Use your imagination; how would you react to this song if your ancestors had been slaves and if you, yourself, had been fighting for civil rights your entire life? Put yourself in the shoes of others. Just a suggestion.

[RagingInMiami]

91. If you knew me

you would see that I am one of the most vocal supporters of civil rights and critics of racism you will ever meet.

[kk897]

103. OK, I believe you.

Just as an exercise, then, try to put yourself in the shoes of those here who are outraged by the song. What do you think they're thinking? Why do you think they're reacting this way?

Further, do you believe that a text (i.e., a song, a movie, a poem, a post) can have a subtext? Perhaps the people here are looking at the subtext of the song while you're looking at the text.

I'm simply advocating taking a different look at the song, and, in fact, the world.

[ultraist]

94. well said!

I think it's oftentimes more of a lack of awareness and education than blatant racism. There are different levels of awareness. Although I have seen blatantly racist comments here.

This is why it's important that we educate ourselves and elevate our level of thinking and sophistication in analyzing issues.

As far as stereotyping, yes, it does happen here. I've also seen a lot of classism. Both directed against poor people and wealthy people. Some automatically assume, if your income is above the median, you are selfish and evil.

[RethugAssKicker]

22. Screw Hank Williams and

all he fucking stood for!!!

[Pepperbelly]

56. no!!!! Screw Hank Williams Junior.

Don't talk bad about his Daddy. Now HE was an artist. His son is a punk-assed rich kid.

Don't EVER talk bad about the giants who have walked among us. He died from an overdose of morphine and whiskey and a car crash. Just like so many of the others, at age 27.

[WLKjr]

59. NO NO NO, JR. is an ass

His dad actually had great songs, mostly about how lonely he felt.

[tx_dem41]

90. Bite your tongue....."Jr"s are important little letters. n/t

[Bluebear]

29. "I'd have all the cars made in the Carolina's & ban the ones made in China

Something tells me the songwriter is not going to be happy about what his Fuhrer's economic policies have wrought.

[ultraist]

36. Outsourcing and "illegal alien" guest worker passes freak the xenophobes

completely out. I'm not sure how those Bush supporters (except the big corpers) reconcile Bush's push on outsourcing or giving companies that outsource corporate welfare (OUR TAX DOLLARS) or his plan to legalize illegal aliens working here.

For the record, I prefer undocumentated workers but Rednecks don't like them fernerners and usually call em criminals..ILLEGAL ALIENS.

[southpaw]

108. Can someone name a Chinese-made car that is imported into the U.S.?

I can't, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I get that 'Cephus was probably talking about Toyotas and Hondas, but 'Japan' doesn't rhyme with 'Carolina'


Still, I see much xenophobia in this song... very reflective of the rural southern population...

[ThorsHammer]

31. I like the song too (obviously, I wouldn't want them to maintain slavery)

[ultraist]

38. What do you like about that song?

[ThorsHammer]

46. The innocuous, Southern pride stuff - whiskey, horses, trucks, etc

[Bluebear]

51. All that innocuous Southern pride....

would be dandy if the underlying sentiment wasn't "We're not Volvo driving, latte-sipping, elite overeducated evil liberals from Massachusetts" :)

[RagingInMiami]

54. not that's there anything wrong with being

a Volvo driving, latte-sipping, elite overeducated evil liberal from Massachusetts

[ThorsHammer]

65. That's the point, to each their own

Some people are happy as volvo driving, latte sipping, overeducated elites, while others are happy being truck driving, whiskey drinking, simple people. I took the song as more of an innocuous Southern pride thing, as he's proud of his culture.

[RagingInMiami]

70. exactly

That is where the "honesty" comes in. About him not being ashamed of being a truck-driving, whiskey drinking, simple man from the south.

[ultraist]

80. It's not innocuous if it's a cover for White Supremacy: Privilege & Purity

[ThorsHammer]

88. See post #72 please (nt)

[Fifth of Five]

33. Well...

>"and all the horses raised in those Kentucky hills."

If the South had won, Kentucky would still be part of the United States, not the Confederate States. Kentucky never seceded from the Union, so I guess ole Hank would have to do without the horses.

[DelawareValleyDem]

35. I wonder if Hank would settle for

a car built in Tennessee. If so, he can buy a Nissan

[kentuck]

39. Sort of like the rebel flag.....

just pisses people off mostly.... Now David Allan Coe is a different story. :)

[Redstone]

93. Now, THERE's a free spirit...

David Allan Coe truly does not give a fuck what ANYONE thinks about him...gotta respect that. I enjoy seeing recent pictures of him with the pigtailed beard...

Redstone

[southpaw]

137. Yeah... David Allan Coe!

Don't you just love songs like "Cowboys and Niggers" or "Nigger Fucker"?

What a wretched turd!

[msongs]

41. hmmm no mention of slavery in this little ditty...or that

the black population would have way exceeded the white population eventually (if it had not already back in the 1860's) so that whent he slave rebellion came, many of those white people might have been killed,
thus no vernon presely and no elvis, and no patsy cline either.

my my, history is such fun.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[tom_paine]

48. Calling rewrite!

If the South woulda won, we'd had it made (revised)
tom_paine

If the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
Get rid of those Jews, N*ggers, gays and AIDS
In 1940 when it came time to choose sides
Not with Yankee Liberals and Communists would we hide
Ol' Adolf knew what to do with Jews, Liberals, and Yankee Queers
We would have made sure he had some extra years.
Instead of readin' books about evolution
We'd have written a law against 'em in the Confederate Constitution
I'd put that capital back in Alabama.
We'd put Florida on the right track, so we wouldn't have to steal Jewish Votes
We'd have just surroudned our communities with "KKK moats"
In the CSA, you'd have to pass a reading test to vote
And a White Man couldn't fail, even if he couldn't even read a Teacher's Note.
But for all you N*ggers, Jews, and Yankee Queers
it's best that you don't let the sun set on your head down here...

Now that, at least, is some HONEST verse!

[ultraist]

58. Wow! You are quite the writer! Well done and to the point

Yes, that's an HONEST version.

[Bridget Burke]

64. If the South had won, Rufus Payne would have been a slave....

Not the street musician who taught Hank, Sr., how to play the blues. Hank would have stayed a poor white, the dreadful Audrey would not have noticed him & Hank, Jr. would not have been born.

There are many admirable things about Southern culture but, I, personally, am glad that slavery ended. Certain sentiments are not surprising from the inbred, green-teeth set. But threads like these also bring out the "we should have let them leave" wimps.

[ultraist]

66. What do you mean by, "we should have let them leave wimps?"

[Bridget Burke]

107. The Oh-So-Pure Blue Staters who regret the Civil War.

They tend to show up on the North versus South threads. The claim? The South would have ended slavery--eventually.

They would be quite happy with the smaller USA that would have resulted. Those weird Abolitionists (& Feminists?) would have been silenced in the victory of Yankee practicality. Fewer immigrants would have been needed--just keep the Popish Irish on the bottom of the ladder. No Popish Italians would be needed--much less Central Europeans who weren't even Christian.

The Westward push would have been delayed--actually good for the original inhabitants, unless other powers moved in. (The newer, smaller USA would not have wasted money on Alaska.)

No great migration of African-Americans to the North, less of a border with Mexico--a neat, businesslike culture, dancing to a stately & refined tune.

[ultraist]

113. Oh, those that glorify the North?

I live in NC btw.

But, are you saying that there are those that glorify the North? I agree. I think the history books are heavily censored to promote patriotism. You have to really look for an honest history book, that's NOT revisionist history.

I've also noticed that for as much talk there is about racism in the South today, racism in the North is barely is it ever mentioned. If you look at the US Census Bureau stats, you'll find HUGE discrepancies between blacks and whites in income, education, health care, incarceration rates and other indicators in Northern states. Couple that with the fact the percentage of their Black population is a lot smaller than Southern states, and viola!

I had to laugh at some kid from NH that was interviewed during the primaries who said, 'we don't have racism problems here in NH.' LOL! Maybe because there are only like 2 black people in the whole state! Get real. Of course, they don't have as many hate crimes.

CA has gotten really bad and so have parts of NY.

[ThorsHammer]

72. The first sentence of your last paragraph is what I was trying to say

Ultraist, that's what I was trying to say above. I am very glad that slavery ended, and believe that the song was more about the admirable things than some neo-Confederate thing.

[tinonedown]

68. What trash - and he has more

If Heaven ain't a lot like dixie, I don't want to go.
That is actually the title of one of his songs. And this guy is on TV every Monday night singing for football. How in the world did he pull that off? Singing every week on a popular show with songs like these in his collection. In fact, maybe its time I write ABC or whoever puts on Monday football and ask them why this guy is out there every night singing the theme to their show. Maybe they aren't even aware, so I'll e-mail them nicely, of course.
Unfortunately, this is not a country music only problem, door swings both ways.
Grammy award winner names:
Coolio, from 1995's "The Revolution"
I'm seeing bodies in the alley and blood in the Valley, from the shores of Maine all the way to Compton, Cali', I'm calling rally to the homies in the street life. I'm doing some recruiting to bring more troops in. One day there's gonna be a Final Call. With my nine in the air and braids in my hair; make everyone aware that the rebels of riots still smolders in spots like Newark, and Harlem, Chicago, and Watts.
Lauryn Hill/Fugees 1996
I run marathons like Buju Banton, I'm a true champion, like Farrakhan reads his daily Koran. It's a phenomenon, lyrics fast like Ramadan. Armageddon coming, you know, when we soon be done, gun by my side just in case I got to run, a boy on the side of Babylon trying to front like he down with Mount Zion.We got to get our family together. We got to get organized, we need captains and lieutenants.

What a mess.

[RagingInMiami]

71. What's wrong with him singing about dixie?

It's the south he's singing about. Why shouldn't he be proud of where he's from?

[tinonedown]

77. It has racist overtones

The word "Dixie" is associated with a racist south. The rebel flag, etc. Can he sing about the south? Sure, but he better qualify his lyrics. Especially when has another song titled if the south woulda won we'd had it made.

[RagingInMiami]

78. So I guess that makes the Dixie Chicks racist as well

But weren't they the ones that spoke out against Bush?

[tinonedown]

81. Well, no, they aren't

But they don't have the track record of Williams Jr "If the south...we'd had it made."
Pair that with "If heavean ain't a lot like Dixie", I don't want to go and you can see where my sceptisism creeps in.
As for the Dixie Chicks, however they conduct themselves does not change the fact that many find the word dixie offensive. The word may not be outright racist but how you use it is, hence the difference with Jr's track record and the Chicks.

[RagingInMiami]

89. I see

So by Hank Williams Jr. wanting heaven to be a lot like dixie, he is saying that it better be filled with only white people?

[tinonedown]

95. That's the breeze I feel

When I take into consideration his other song "If the south woulda won we'd had it made".
Not coming to a conclusion on the dixie song exclusively (haven't I made that point to you already - we may be going in circles)!

[RagingInMiami]

97. We shouldn't be going in circles

I just don't think the word "dixie" should be associated with "white supremacy" or "racism".

[tinonedown]

102. Maybe it should not

But I know my African-American friends hate the term, and have not hesitated to tell me so when it comes up. (It comes up often here in the south). So rather than argue with them about what should offend them and what should not I accept their definition. Because the way they see it is not arguable. It is what it is to their community.

[ultraist]

79. Do you think it qualifies as White Supremacist Hate Music?

http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/hate_music_in_the_21st_century.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_1

In the United States, racist songs praising the Ku Klux Klan or promoting segregation have existed for many years. But starting in the 1970s, a new phenomenon emerged: the creation of an entire genre of music predicated on racism.

Today, hate music plays a central role in the white supremacist movement in the U.S., Europe, and elsewhere. It is key to many aspects of the neo-Nazi world, but is especially important in three areas

Types:
Others: Almost any type of music can be infused with white supremacist themes. Racist music distributors may sell racist country music or rockabilly, or racist techno or electronica music. There is still even a market for marches and songs from the Nazi era of the 1930s-40s. However, these are far less popular than the above subgenres.

Hank Williams, Jr.'s music is listed on this White Supremacists Hate Group website: Stormfront WHITE NATIONALIST Community

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/archive/index.php/f-33-p-7

[RagingInMiami]

85. Someone call Tipper Gore!

I noticed that Elvis Presley, AC/DC, Alice Chains, Robert Palmer and Metallica were also mentioned on that site.

Who would have ever thought they were all racist?

[ultraist]

115. I didn't say all of the music listed is white supremacist music

However, some allege Elvis was a racist. He was quoted as saying, "a nigger ain't good for nuthin' but shinin' shoes."

But I don't really consider his music white supremacist hate music. I don't know enough about his music to make that call. You also have to consider it within the cultural context of that time. His music was heavily influenced by Black music. He was however, a white Southern Pentecostal living during Jim Crow law days.

I just found it interesting that a White Nationalist Hate Group endorsed that song. I didn't say ALL of the songs listed on their site are white supremacist songs.

[tinonedown]

86. Would probably use the word seperatist, not supremacist

And say it does qualify as seperatist 'hate music'.

[ultraist]

111. Oh, but separatist does equal supremacist. Segregation is racist

"Separate but equal?"

[Ladyhawk]

84. Hank Williams, Jr...his voice jangles my nerves...

...like fingernails on a blackboard...like two pieces of styrofoam being rubbed together. Seriously, the theater played one of his songs before the movie and I nearly had to walk out.

Reading the lyrics of this song makes me like him even less, if that's possible.

[bunkerbuster1]

101. The guy looks like a pig.

He sounds worse.

He's the reason I never tune in to Monday Night Football until four minutes after the hour.

[ComerPerro]

104. Had the south won, the north would be pretty happy too.

They can keep their bigotry, their racism, and George W Bush.

The Klan would be a national political party.

And any liberals who wanted to get the hell out of the South would be welcome here.

[Bridget Burke]

109. No, you'd still have George W Bush.

He's a Connecticut boy, you know.

[ComerPerro]

110. Yeah, but he would have to invent a new persona

We wouldn't fall for that Texan cowboy bullshit.

[QC]

133. 62% of Kansans did fall for it,

along with 45% of the voters in Illinois.

Say hi to Fred Phelps for me next time you see him.

[QC]

131. The Bushes are pure northeastern establishment WASP.

You would still have them, sugar, along with Newt Gingrich and Bob Barr. And you are more then welcome to those carpetbaggers.

[StopAnnCoulter]

106. Embarrasing

As a Southerner that's pretty embarrasing

[ultraist]

119. Another liberal Southerner?

:bounce:

There are a few here that think all Southerners are racist rednecks, we have to convince them otherwise. ;)

(Most here, however, don't stereotype that badly).

Welcome StopAnnCoutler! :hi:

[Johonny]

114. I is of course impossible to know

What would have happen. Certainly the history of the "west" would have been different. There was strong support for California and other western states to leave the union too. There is thought that the US would have been a very fractured and thus much more weak. A North Eastern-MidAmerican union, a loose collection of countries in the south and 1 or more countries in the west.

[jdj]

122. it would have been mayhem and bloodshed.

from then til now. I believe had this battle not been fought when it was it probably would have destroyed our country and left us extremely vulnerable in the first and second world wars to god knows what.

This war would have been fought whether organized or unorganized.

[Goldmund]

123. This song has "sarcasm" written all over it.

[libhill]

126. Is that a Freeper theme song?

[NNadir]

129. Who's "we?" Certainly not the class of human beings treated worse than

horses in the antebellum South.