Nicola Calipari and the Soldier who Shot Him

[WilliamPitt]

This past Sunday, I posted a serious question about the attack on Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena. Analyzing the witness statements and blending the incident into the excellent reporting by TO writer Steve Weissman, it seemed a fair and necessary question to ask: Was Sgrena deliberately targeted?

Now that a couple of days have passed, and after extensive research and analysis into the situation, I feel confident in stating that it is highly unlikely that the attack on Sgrena was deliberate.I am basing part of my conclusion on Sgrena’s own words; she has voiced her belief that the attack was deliberate because the U.S. does not like the way Italy negotiates for the release of hostages. This is, to put it mildly, highly unlikely.

The other basis for my conclusion concerns the U.S. military itself. Call me crazy, but I think that if the military wants you dead, and has you in their gunsights with a kill order in hand, you’re gone. Period. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did they not use the .20mm cannon that was on the scene? The rounds from that thing are as big as Frisbees and would have done the job. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did military medics tend to her after the attack?

No, if they want you, and they’ve got you bracketed and braced, that’s the end of you. If this attack had been deliberate, we’d be reading Sgrena’s obituary today. It is terrible that she was shot, and she is to be commended for her courage in reporting on the Fallujah incursion from an eyewitness perspective, but the attack was not deliberate.

The discussion of this, while necessary and justified by other incidents and accusations of journalists being targeted, is wide of the point we should be focusing on. Giuliana Sgrena is not the most important person in this story. The center of this story revolves around two people: Nicola Calipari and the soldier who shot him.

More:

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/3/8/102153/3833

[DELUSIONAL]

1. I disagree -- the intend was the kill the journalist and send a message

The hit was probably carried out by one of the death squads that is operating in Iraq.

However, when the US realized that the Italians had been on the phone with Italians officials -- the assassination of everyone in the car could not take place as planned.

The troops are being blamed -- but it was more than likely a special ops unit. The "troops" have not been identified -- nor have the unit they belong to. (Either that or an out of control officer is ordering random hits on random cars -- but still not likely.)

The fact that car was so close to the airport and the fact that the car has been "disappeared" makes me believe this was a directed hit. One of the idiots in the white house threw a temper tantrum and ordered the hit. It has their signature -- that bunch don't consider the consequences of their action. It is a typical "frat boy" prank.

[Llewlladdwr]

23. This is just too perfect. nt

[stewert]

2. I Agree Will........

I do not believe the US troops had an order to kill her. If I had to guess I would say it was some young low level troops who were a little trigger happy, and who probably did not know who she was or what they were doing.

Maybe one day the facts will come out and then we will know what really happened, but who knows.

[illflem]

3. What is the driver saying, haven't heard anything from him.

Some how it seems the Italians might have been having a rejoiceful good old time, dodging puddles to the point of almost losing control and could have been oblivious to what was really going on.
Still the scared senseless American kids fighting in Iraq need to learn not to shoot at anything that moves, 300- 400 warning shots seems a little excessive.

[rovespuppet]

4. According to an Italian Official......

AGENT'S KILLING AN ACCIDENT, NOT AN AMBUSH-FM
(AGI) - Rome, March 8 - "In light of the direct eye witness accounts, the hypothesis of an ambush is unfounded. This was an accident determined by a series of fatal circumstances and casual events," said Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini at the Lower House. (AGI) -
081219 MAR 05

If you can believe the Italian officials.....

[Frederik]

83. Gianfranco Fini

is of course a diplomat, as he is the foreign minister. He wouldn't say "they did it on purpose" under any circumstances. He did contest every detail of the American account, though.

[Auntie Bush]

5. Thanks Will for giving us some perspective.

I was beginning to think it's true, but I'm glad it's not...hopefully.
However one thought. If they wanted it to LOOK like an accident rather than an assassination they would have done just what they did, however they botched the job by not killing her.

[bozeman]

6. WTF would they target a journalist and some intelligence officers?

It would accomplish nothing. There is no evidence they did. That poor woman is obviously under a lot of stress, but I don't believe she has any evidence either.

[UdoKier]

35. Yes, the US military would NEVER target non-embeddded Journalists...

That's why 48 of them lie dead right now...


:eyes:

[walldude]

47. Actually that number is 73 dead.... n/t

[UdoKier]

54. Sorry, silly me.

73 very tragic, totally innocent, friendly-fire collateral damage "accidents".



And Eason Jordan really wanted to spend more time with his family...

[tuckessee]

78. Why target either Calipari, Sgrena or both?

Calipari could've been targeted if the Italians were paying ransom money to the kidnappers. The theory being that paying ransom greatly aids the "terrorists" because they get money to buy weapons and will be encouraged to kidnap even more people to get even more money to buy even more weapons and so on......

Calipari is big player in the spy world. Deception rules in that realm. There may be a dozen other reasons why a multitude of people or interests would want him dead. One can make a lot of enemies in 20+ years of cloak and dagger.

Simple rule - When a big-time spook dies a suspicious death there's a great chance it was a hit.

There are many reasons why Sgrena might have been targeted. Her general anti-war stance is one reason. Another is maybe she learned specific things about Fallujah or other war crimes that the US would rather have left unknown.

It's possible her kidnapping may have played into it. Maybe the US fears she will use the kidnapping as a platform to "aid the terrorsits" by raising awareness about conditions in Iraq. Maybe she faked her own kidnapping for propaganda purposes and the US views her as an "enemy combatant. Maybe she didn't fake but it the US thinks she did.

But hey, who knows, maybe this highly professional career intelligence officer with a world of experience in Iraq was allowing his driver to drive like a DUI suicide bomber on a LA Freeway chase while carrying the woman he spent countless hours to rescue. They barrelled into a checkpoint and Our Boys just had to fire 'em up for safety's sake.

[Schema Thing]

7. Yes, but if they want you dead, and yet

want it to look accidental, and not involve ordering a large group of soldiers to take out an innocent... well even the "powers that be" have limitations. Do you really think that even George W "satan the debil" Bush would ask a group of grunts to *deliberately* target an innocent civilian? Especially an innocent Italian civilian that would have the rest of the world, for the rest of all time, asking each and every one of those grunts exactly how it all went down, who ordered what, etc etc?

And in fact, it's almost the perfect setup for a crime; you only need to involve a very few ranking people; just enough to get the soldiers shooting non-lethally at stopping a car.

If a sniper didn't get her, but he was the only one trying, the story would look... well... just about the way it looks, wouldn't it? Then again, Nicola was an agent who knew more than enough, so plenty of room for tinfoil all around in this case, and I'm not usually into tinfoil fashion.

[bklyncowgirl]

8. Thank you Will.

Sane words on a contentious issue. I too do not believe that the troops who shot at the car had orders to take this reporter out for the very reasons you expressed.

I do believe that the US military is running on a wing and a prayer in Iraq and this sort of screw up is all too common.

Somehow these soldiers failed to get the word that some Italian VIPs were heading for the airport. Was it the fault of the Italians to coordinate with the Americans or the fault of the US to get the word out to its troops?

Hopefully an investigation will clear this up.

[Stirk]

9. I don't think you can assume that failure to complete a job

proves the job wasn't given. Military operations fail all the time. Civilian operations fail all the time. Human beings make assumptions, unforseen circumstances arise, etc.

I don't know whether Sgrena was specifically targeted or not, but I don't think your second point can really be used in making an assessment.

Now having said that, I don't know the specifics. Did the troops actually go up to the car and inspect it before medical help arrived? I mean, actually looking inside? If they did, then I would agree that intentional targetting of Sgrena seems very unlikely.

[leesa]

10. I don't buy this. She was exposing illegal weapons used by

the US in Fallujah. Did you know another reporter reporting on Fallujah and the use of napalm has also been kidnapped?

The "incompetance/scared soldier" stuff is getting REAL thin. How do you even know they were regular soldiers? The driver said they were only going 30 MPH and that they had gone through all the checkpoints. This stinks to high heaven.

[bloom]

14. "incompetance/scared soldier"

esp. when the "incompetance/scared soldier" was in a tank. It's not like he/she was out in the open.

GIULIANA SGRENA: We were on our way to the airport, and we thought we were finally safe, because the area where we were was under the control of the United States. We therefore thought we had escaped the gravest area and entered into a more friendly area, although I was still nervous as my hostage takers had warned me to be careful, because it was the Americans who did not want me to be free, and returned to Italy alive. I just took that as a last threat from my hostage takers and did not really take it seriously. But then suddenly we found ourselves under an immense amount of bullets, something terrible, without any warning, and we realized that nearby there was an American tank which was shooting at us.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/07/1449232

[WilliamPitt]

18. I'm not sure I take her perspective as fact

First of all, she was getting shot at, so I'd imagine her perspective was blurred by fear, ducking and the dead body that was blocking her.

Secondly, if it was a 'tank' firing at them, either with the turret, the .20mm cannon or the .50 cal machine gun, there wouldn't be enough of Sgrena, Calipari, the driver and the car to put into an egg cup.

So...

[bloom]

24. The US doesn't even have a version

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1293908


I expect when/if they ever do - they hope everyone has forgotten about it.

[WilliamPitt]

28. To be sure

but the lack of a US explanation does not automatically validate the testimony of someone who was under fire with a dead body on top of her.

[bloom]

56. From another reporter

As an American journalist here, I have been through many checkpoints and have come close to being shot at several times myself. I look vaguely Middle Eastern, which perhaps makes my checkpoint experience a little closer to that of the typical Iraqi. Here's what it's like.

You're driving along and you see a couple of soldiers standing by the side of the road - but that's a pretty ubiquitous sight in Baghdad, so you don't think anything of it. Next thing you know, soldiers are screaming at you, pointing their rifles and swiveling tank guns in your direction, and you didn't even know it was a checkpoint.
...
'Stop or you will be shot'

Another problem is that the US troops tend to have two-stage checkpoints. First there's a knot of Iraqi security forces standing by a sign that says, in Arabic and English, "Stop or you will be shot." Most of the time, the Iraqis will casually wave you through.

Your driver, who slowed down for the checkpoint, will accelerate to resume his normal speed. What he doesn't realize is that there's another, American checkpoint several hundred yards past the Iraqi checkpoint, and he's speeding toward it. Sometimes, he may even think that being waved through the first checkpoint means he's exempt from the second one (especially if he's not familiar with American checkpoint routines)......

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html?s=t...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x111264

-----

Whether the US military was shooting at anything that moves or shooting at Sgrena in particular - it's all bad. Intent may not be provable at all - so it just comes down to what and who you find more believable.

Unfortunately - I don't think too much of the US military's motives or actions - regardless.

[cureautismnow]

77. "Stop or you will be shot."

Hey, freedom's on the march! :eyes:

[DemBones DemBones]

128. I found the Christian Science Monitor to be a reputable source during the

war in Viet Nam. It was a major news source for us then. Today, there are many more options for news but I think the Monitor is still a reliable source.

This reporter's explanation makes perfect sense and here's the kicker, from the editor's note:

"This personal account, filed prior to the shooting, explains how confusing and risky checkpoints can be - from both sides".

That's very important: the account was filed prior to the shooting.

The reporter was writing a story on her own experiences to explain the problems, often fatal, that many Iraqis have had at checkpoints.

Of course, the facts presented by this reporter neither prove nor disprove Ms. Sregna's allegations. They do suggest that there are serious problems with the way American soldiers are operating checkpoints in Iraq. The all-professional Army should be doing much better.

[bpilgrim]

32. standard line in plausable deniablity

as i predicted they would use on saturday.

First of all, she was getting shot at, so I'd imagine her perspective was blurred by fear, ducking and the dead body that was blocking her.

doesn't prove nor disprove a thing.

btw: i would like to hear your comment on post #15

peace

[Frederik]

84. It would look a little more conspicuous

if she was shot with the 25mm gun of a Bradley, as this is not the usual gun to use at a checkpoint, which the Americans claim it was.

[aaronnyc]

22. The conspiracy theory simply doesn't add up

If we were going to kill her why wouldn't we have some Iraqi soldiers do it. That way it would be much easier to blame it on the insurgency. Even if we couldn't blame it on the insurgents, people would be much more likely to believe that an Iraqi soldier, who cannot defend himself to the media, was grossly incompetent (given their reputation), and that the thing was a mistake.

Moreover, we really do not have a motive in killing her. Yeah, I know she was a left wing journalist, but there are thousands of other left wing journalists who aren't killed. Journalists outside of the MSM don't really have the power to persuade the masses. All Sgrena would have done, is write about the thousandth article in a Communist journal accusing the U.S. of war crimes in Iraq. Why would Bush and co. even care?

However, by killing a journalist who the entire world has seen pleading for her life on television the United States is ensuring international outrage; possibly leading to European nations removing their troops.

And finally, if we were going to kill her we would completely shoot up the car. Not fire a couple of bullets; killing one guy, and leaving the rest of witnesses.

Basically our checkpoint system sucks, many other innocents have been killed at our "checkpoints", that should be the issue here. I know it is not as satisfying as a conspiracy theory, but the evidence of a conspiracy here, simply does not exist.

[bpilgrim]

31. see post #15

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3238385#3238654

peace

[OKNancy]

92. Good post

and good points. Welcome to DU.

[Spinoza]

101. Excellent Points

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. The "focus" should be that our troops are murdering civilians.

The death of Calipari and the wounding of Sgrena give us an opportunity to focus on what the occupation forces are doing on a daily basis in Iraq. More should be made of the fact that this wasn't an isolated incident by hapless "young, scared, soldiers" defending themselves. The soldiers are there with a purpose. The purpose is to subdue the resentful inhabitants of a country under occupation.

That's why they have guns.

[bpilgrim]

17. excellent point

:toast:

peace

[DS1]

66. No, just ignoring the argument at hand in order to say what we already

know :shrug:

[bpilgrim]

75. that point ISN'T being made though it should be

though not nessarily in will's article.

though post #15 is certainly being ignored though that is directly related to the "argument at hand"

wonder why that is :shrug:

peace

[magellan]

26. I'm with you, Tierra_y_Libertad

If it can happen to Sgrena and a carload of Italian Intelligence Officers, it can happen to anyone innocently driving around in American occupied areas. And does.

I guess for some that's okay since the usual victims are "just Iraqis". But then I'd have to ask: if the lives of Iraqi civilians are so worthless, why are we bothering to free them from tyranny in the first place?

[bloom]

12. I don't agree.

Just because you bring up only one reason that she mentioned.

The fact that the car was hidden from people who might be able to pass judgment.

The fact that it will always be her word vs. the US military.....


It could also have been more intimidation. There has been a lot of that. Some journalists are killed - many more leave instead of waiting to be killed.

[bpilgrim]

13. everyBODY makes mistakes...

that's ALWAYS the problem with the best and brightest though... they don't think they do.

peace

[bpilgrim]

15. if the operational cover was 'it was a tragic accident' then of course we

would provide transportation and first aide to any survivers...
the only MINOR problem with the possible plan was that she survived.

it'd be VERY hard to explain murdering them at such close range, now, wouldn't it?

but FORTUNATELY the cover is still ACTIVE, since even YOU are pushing it.

of course that is just 1 possibility.

BTW: did you interview the trigger man :wow:

peace

[WilliamPitt]

36. Wow

In one fell swoop, this was an 'operation' whose cover I am involved in putting forth.

I dismiss your premises out of hand because, frankly, they don't seem well considered.

You believe that she was deliberately targeted, but then state that the fact she survived is a 'minor' problem? That doesn't scan.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go communicate with Headquarters...

[bpilgrim]

37. US minder cuts off General at press conference about shot Italian reporter

No link. Live on CNN and MSNBC now. I will provide a link to the transcript when CNN puts it up. The General will not answer any questions about the shooting from reporters stressing the "sensitivity". He would not say the US did not know the car with the Italian agents and the reporter were coming to the airport where there was a plane waiting for them. The only news is that there will be no results from the US "investigation" into the shooting for 3 or 4 weeks.

Don

more...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1293908

they knew they were comming will...
and i am NOT accusing YOU of anything just pointing out a POSSIBILITY.

at least YOU admit to dismissing out of hand.

btw: did you interview the TRIGGER-MAN?

peace

[rovespuppet]

44. In defense of the General.....

He stated he wouldn't answer questions until the investigation is complete - which is a normal response whether discussing soldiers in Iraq, football players charged with dui, or murders in Detroit. The pitiful reporters kept asking the same mind numbing questions over and over again.

The military will investigate and the italians will investigate but we surely can't take Sgrena's word as gospel. Her credibility is as subject as the military's.

[bpilgrim]

39. FYI: the BIGGEST problem is GETTING caught

flip on CNN

peace

[Zuni]

94. now even Will Pitt is the enemy?

man, the paranoia here is amazing....

[bpilgrim]

103. where did i say that?

talk about paranoia

peace

[bpilgrim]

117. will pit the Grand Poo-Bah of DU orthodoxy cops-out with a separate thread

instead of engaging in discussion, he starts a completely separate thread to ridicule, characterize and accuse DU'ers who raise plausible and reasonable scenarios that simply point to other possibilities.

It's pretty amazing what happens when one cuts against DU orthodoxy

what you ain't wise enough to speak directly to other DU'ers on the merits of your and their arguments but instead start a smear campaign to attack them indirectly with your own rigid orthodoxy simply because they raise plausible alternative scenarios.

these are the tactics of the M$MW :wtf:

now if you are serious and care about this get back in here and lets discuss this in the TRADITIONAL DU style of honorable, factual and reasoned discussion with tons of links ;->

peace

[DS1]

16. Yay, someone else gets it

:D

[bpilgrim]

19. gets one possibility

either way we are MURDERING civilians in an ILLEGAL FUCKING WAR and it must be STOPPED!

peace

[DS1]

21. Yes, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that point

[Malikshah]

20. The isse of the deliberateness of the attack is just one part of the story

Whether it was deliberate or not-- it is the pattern of harassment, fear-mongering, use-of-violence-for-political-ends (and that is..?), lack of discpline, negligence, covering up, etc. that needs to be addressed.

I understand the Kantian need of some to determine "intent" here. I feel that the larger issue is all of the above--intent to kill whether it's there or not--is not as important in the larger picture. Intent to be negligent, intent to scare, harass, terrorize, etc-- now THAT is important and eminently more likely in this case.

[Redneck Socialist]

25. How dare you...

...ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory! :crazy: Not every bad thing in the world can be laid at the feet of Bushco. Many can be, but not this one methinks.

[bpilgrim]

29. goin with yer gut, eh?

fyi: that hardly qualifies as an investigation, nor does it solve the case.

peace

[Cooley Hurd]

27. Initially, I was concerned this was a Blackwater ops-type of thing...

Immediately after the shooting, the car went missing (it has since been turned over the Italian gov't). Then stories emerged that their cell phones were confiscated; that Nicola Calipari was talking to someone in english shortly before the shooting; that the shooting took place less than a km from the airport...

Couple that with the fact that the US military had a motive for such a hit (Sgrena's Fallujah stories), and I think it's easy to see how many of us had grave reservations about the Pentagon's side of the story...

[shadowknows69]

43. was this a coalition controlled airport they were going to?

and if so you expect me to believe that we didn't know the purpose and destination of a plane fueled up and ready on the tarmac?

[Cooley Hurd]

57. Both valid points.

This was the Int'l airport, which is indeed under US control, however, was there a plane on the tarmac? :shrug:

[Frederik]

87. Yes

The Italian plane was waiting.

[Zuni]

95. Why would the US Military be so worried about already printed

stories from Fallujah, that they had to assasinate a little known journalist?

Sorry. doesn't wash.

[TankLV]

108. Not to mention the small fact that EVERYTHING this criminal

misadministration has claimed has turned out to be a LIE!

I'm sorry, but if one side has been consistently, 100% wrong, the side of caution and prudence would dictate that the OPPOSITE of what they are claiming is true.

We can only go on the record of these criminals. The record does not support these criminals.

Until further evidence emerges, they are guilty as charged.

THAT is the "sure bet" speaking as one from Vegas.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

33. Meaningless nonsense

but thanks for sharing.

[bpilgrim]

34. i hope you share your thoughts on post #15

that PLAUSIBLE explanation is excluded in your article and i don't see any hole in that possibility and would appreciate your comments on it.

tia

peace

[hunter]

53. It takes me a long time to write entire essays, and even paragraphs...

I usually enjoy your writing, but this one is a stinker.

Your high praise of U.S. military competence, "No, if they want you, and they’ve got you bracketed and braced, that’s the end of you." is an argument straight out of freeperville, and negates the argument that you are trying to make -- that this attack was an accident, a simple case of "friendly" fire.

To some of us it seems the U.S. military has a history of using friendly fire as a strategy... if the military allows a certain amount of random death and mayhem, it provides a very good cover for ugly stuff that is not random.

Oops, sorry, we dropped a bomb on your embassy. Our maps were bad...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/338424.stm

Ah, the fog of war.

In the end it doesn't matter if Ms. Sgrena was a target or not. The U.S. has accomplished it's obvious goal of threatening the messengers it doesn't like.

I was listening to ABC radio news a few days after this happened, and they were practically gushing how Ms. Sgrena wrote for an Italian communist newspaper. My first thought was, "wow, mission accomplished!"

On the U.S. scale of name calling and mud slinging "Italian Communist" ranks somewhere down below "Italian whore." Let's now move on to the Michael Jackson trial...

If this was your way of telling the "tinfoil hat" crowd they were making too much noise, I respect that, but I don't think you were successful.

Some of us pacifist tinfoiler hatters, especially those of us who are pacifists because we know too much about weapons and war, well, we get very upset when we hear William Pitt spouting Jeff Gannon style military porn.

Okay?

[WilliamPitt]

65. "William Pitt spouting Jeff Gannon style military porn"

Consider this post an insult to you personally that would require a mod's deletion.

Compare me to Gannon?

You have a lot of nerve. Perhaps you should take more time to type before coming up with crap like that.

[hunter]

67. Yes, I am an insensitive jerk. I apologize.

I know I'm not supposed to mix an apology with an excuse, but this is what you wrote:

"...I think that if the military wants you dead, and has you in their gunsights with a kill order in hand, you’re gone. Period. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did they not use the .20mm cannon that was on the scene? The rounds from that thing are as big as Frisbees and would have done the job.

Ooooh baby.... call me crazy.

You should remove those fighting words from you otherwise excellent essay.

[donheld]

85. William Pitt is about as opposite of Gannon as one can get

Some people have a lot of nerve.

[TankLV]

109. And, as much as I admire Will, he is NOT PERFECT by any means.

Some of you have too high a praise for this person.

He has been wrong about a lot. He has been right about a lot.

But this is just HIS OPINION and should be treated as such.

No more, no less.

I will never trust anything this criminal misadministration has or will do. THEY are the ones in charge of EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING they touch is tainted and soiled as a result. EVERYTHING.

And that includes our once noble and proud military.

Trust noone.

Verify everything.

I suspect the "tinfoilers" amongst us will be proven correct - again - long after everyone has moved on to some other hot story.

BTW - I'm still breathlessly awaiting the "big announcement" about the Kerry Campaign and the Ohio vote fraud that was supposed to happen and "change everything" on Monday long ago and never happened. This has happend quite a few times, and I've long ago stopped awaiting such "inside scoops" that you always claim to have Will, and don't pan out.

[Zuni]

93. crap

[clem_c_rock]

38. STRONGLY DISAGREE. I believe it was the stories she was working on

She was exposing many of the US tactics in Falluja.


When she was taken captive, she was on her way to interview refugees from Falluja:
http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2034&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Here's some of the stories she was writing:

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dc3a05e58d.html
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

Her accounts
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/

Let's face it. US troops are using Napalm in Iraq, they use DU, they bomb hospitals intentionally so the casualties don't get reported:
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1208

The use of chemical weapons in falluja is starting to bubble up and given all the above, the chances of that being true are massive.TR

[Zuni]

96. thanks for the links

to the newspaper of Italy's Communist Party. Yes, I am sure they and this woman are scrupulously honest.

Just because they are anti-war does not mean they are honest or even correct.

[clem_c_rock]

105. Well 3 out of 5 links maybe so, but are you trying to say

American press has more validity.

I would love for someone to make that case w/ a straight face.

Please do.

[Zuni]

106. I didn't say either was valid

[WilliamPitt]

40. You know what's interesting

There is hardly any commentary from anyone in this thread about the center of the post: Calipari and the soldier who shot him.

Why is that?

[MissB]

42. Because the msm has been focusing on

anything BUT those two people. That is probably at least one reason.

Americans seem to like sensational news.

Edited to add: Far too many Americans don't want to answer the questions ("Where does it end") that you put forth. It is far easier to concentrate on the sensationalist part of the story, rather than the "real" impact.

[bpilgrim]

45. maybe that's because

you - nor ANYONE else - didn't actually INTERVIEW the trigger-man :shrug:

not one quote, all fantasy, yet you try to instruct others on the search for the truth in this case, please.

monday you publish a very serious article on PEAK OIL and you leave out the father of the term and his CRUCILA history and now this...

wazzsup, hommie?

peace

[WilliamPitt]

46. I guess I just don't rise to your standards

Sorry about that.

By the way, his name was Nicola Calipari.

[bpilgrim]

48. whatever

r u gonna start play'n games with me now?

i have always praised, supported and spread your work around so don't get snarky with me.

FYI: we don't know WHO the trigger-man is.

peace

[Blue_Roses]

58. has the soldier who shot him been identified?

I'm still trying to follow the "nuts and bolts" of this story and I'm trying like hell to stay out of the "conspiracy theory" zone. I agree that there are many things that simply do not add up and there hasn't been much information forthcoming from the US. What really bothers me is how much this administration continues to get away with. I'm tired of all the "secrets". Whether this was intentional or not, it stands to reason that something is definitely amok with "some"--emphasis on "some"-- of the soldiers in Iraq (oh, I know, here come the anti-soldier comments from some). This "war" is affecting not just us who oppose it, but the soldiers. I think many are "shell-shocked" and just plain burned out. Between all the yellow magnetic ribbon stickers on the cars and the strong Bush sentiment by some, they make it sound like it's a crime and unpatriotic to question the behavior of some of our troops.

So much information out there that is not getting to us.

As for Nicola Calipari, it is heart-breaking to see his family in such despair. He seemed like a wonderful man and I wonder what he knew about what is really going on there.

[Frederik]

90. Calipari

was one of the top men in Italian intelligence, and he was involved in at least two previous succesful negotiations with kidnappers in Iraq. Quite probably involving ransom. We know this is extremely ufashionable with the Americans. He died from a shot through the temple.

[KoKo]

120. Why was a soldier trying to target Calipari? I don't know. But, what if

he hadn't flung himself on top of her? Would he still be dead? Or do you think he was dead from the targeted shot by the soldier and just fell on her because he already WAS dead..if he was the target.

Maybe if you'd asked for an opinion you wouldn't have rattled so many people. Maybe asked for a discussion instead of declaring? :shrug:

It's a valid question what you say, but it doesn't make her being the target less valid, either. Unless you were there watching it.

Given what we know about the Bushies I'd say the "driver" who was uninjured was a plant and co-opted by someone. See...there are lots of theories that could have some truth.. We will never know. Not with the Propaganda that's in full force now.

[WilliamPitt]

123. Maybe if I'd asked for an opinion

instead of daring to give my own?

Hm.

[KoKo]

124. You misunderstand. You didn't seem to be asking for a discussion

of what was your closing point. That we should be focusing on the soldier and the intelligence officer. Some of us would have found that point interesting to discuss.

Instead it came off like a challenge to DU'ers that we were going in the wrong direction. So, some thought it was arrogant and a diss of DU.

From time to time some of us have seen some rants from you along those lines...some took issue with that.

That's what I'm trying to say. (and since I'm famous for my own rants that appear silly or disjointed to others and been critisized for them...I'm sensitized as to how things can appear to folks here...BTW NOT comparing your articles to any of my silly little rants. There's no comparison, except in the how one is viewed here, by ones past posting experience on DU.)

[KoKo]

127. A gentle kick for "Was it a targeted hit? or are some folks into the

:tinfoilhat: aspects. Looking at that "pristine photo of the pristine" car that had death and wounded in it...I kind of go with the :tinfoilhat: thingy. :shrug:

[bpilgrim]

125. thanks will

I owe this forum an apology

peace

[shadowknows69]

41. maybe the intent was to kill the negotiator

he is the one who ended up with a bullet in his temple. What seemed like him shielding Sgrena was maybe him merely falling on her as the sniper planted one in his brain. The other 300 rounds of ammo, most of which apparently didn't hit its targets was so the kill shot could be covered up. That's my tinfoil two cents for the day.

[WarNoMore]

55. That's one of the things

that has been playing through my head. Maybe Sgrena wasn't the target? I don't guess they would have been carrying any documents or film as they came directly from the captors, but perhaps the hour in which the forces was meant for them to search the car? I know, just speculation; I wouldn't be totally surprised if it really was just a horrible accident.

[Blue_Roses]

63. yeah, makes sense because

the "negotiation" for her release is so fuzzy. There hasn't been any real answers on the terms and how Calipari knew where to find her or her captors. Nothing is every as it appears. The story is in always in the bylines or maybe it's the "devil is always in the details";)

[Junkdrawer]

49. Look at it this way: If journalists were targeted, would the whole Army..

be given "shoot to kill" orders, or would there be a few shadowy figures that give orders to fire on a particular target, and then fade away. And if it's the latter, I'd fully expect our guys to cease fire and render assistance when the "mistake" become apparent.

[neweurope]

50. The cell phones still have not turned up - why? A lot of other

questions not yet answered. Why for instance were the phones disconnected for an hour? If I shoot somebody by accident I make sure he gets everything he needs and don't go and harass him further. Why does it take up to a month to understand who shot somebody and why? IF it was an accident - which I do NOT believe - it should be very easy to see who it was and then to question him. Sgrena herself believes it was NOT an accident. I'm sure she has her reasons (and I don't believe that lame "the US don't want money to be paid to kidnappers").

Sorry, but knowing that the US government is lying whenever they open their mouths I just cannot believe that in THIS case of alpl cases they're saying the truth. There are also 48 other journalists dead - most of them non-embedded. Journalists have been stating more than once that they think it is intentional.

If anything, I think Sgrena's case should prompt further investigation into the deaths of the 48 others!

--------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Binka]

51. "Nicola Calipari and the Soldier who Shot Him"

Will I am not going to go into details but I think you might be missing an integral piece of this puzzle, has it occurred to you that the U.S. military got their man?

Literally. I think they wanted Calipari. This is a sticky wicket and I've just begun to dig but Calipari has had a number of run ins with the Mafia in Sicily in the past five years, many of these dust ups have to do with heroin coming into Sicily from Afghanistan. And contrary to media reports he was not a loyal and true Berlu supporter.

The fact that the media scrutiny is now on Guiliana has me thinking, what a great way to bury the REAL hit. He is dead and he can't talk. She however is being raked over the coals because she is 1. A woman. 2. A Communist. 3. Anti-American. The list goes on. Calipari was on the phone talking ENGLISH to somebody right before the incident. Papers in Italy have the autopsy report stating he was shot in the back of the head and the bullet exited at the temple above the left ear. This was a HIT.

I am going to keep digging into this. Maybe Nicola wasn't paying a ransom in cash but in drugs? Maybe he was taking Mob drugs and using them to satisfy hostage demands. Maybe Berlu wanted Nicola dead and demanded compliance from black ops payback for his support for the coalition? Maybe the Sicilians put the squeeze on Berlu. This was obviously a very dangerous position for Calipari to be placed in but he felt safe enough to take on the mission. Where was he getting his assurances from? He was also on the phone to Berlu's office when the attack began was Berlu waiting to hear if the job was done in real time?

I think this story is just beginning and I think Guiliana is possibly a red herring. I am in Italy BTW. I might be all wet but I'm feeling quite dry and kinda itchy. Ciao.

[Karenina]

60. I'm with you.

n/t

[Blue_Roses]

62. that's pretty interesting

sounds like you are on to something here. So much we don't know about
Calipari and his relationship with Berlu.

[Zuni]

99. that seems a lot more plausible to me

than the US ordering a hit on some irrelevant communist journalist that no one over here has ever heard of.

[DemBones DemBones]

129. VERY interesting. nt

[walldude]

52. Not sure what to think of this.

It seems like it would be really stupid to kill such a high profile reporter with the Eason Jordan comments still ringing in peoples ears. On the other hand the car seems to have dissapeared and the U.S. hasn't been exactly "smart" lately so who knows...

[SmokingJacket]

59. My pet theory:

The troops were ordered to shoot at the car, but when they saw who it was they stopped, believing they must have made a mistake. That's why they weren't all killed.

I believe the troops themselves were innocent -- someone gave them orders, perhaps they were even lied to. They might have been told the approaching car had insurgents in it, so they shot at it, then saw there was a western woman inside.

Of course... just a theory.

[Junkdrawer]

71. Seems reasonable to me...

:thumbsup:

[Zorra]

61. The accounts conflict, it's pretty murky. If the B*sh administration

had not been lying to us consistently and continuously for the past 4+ years, and if a seemingly inordinate number of journalists (the killing of Mazen Dana, for example) had not been killed during the invasion and occupation of Iraq, it would be a lot easier for me to believe that an anti-war journalist was not singled out, on orders from higher authority, for an attack. So: Are our soldiers poorly trained and/or poorly commanded in the field, are there some crazy freeper type soldiers, such as the Abu Gharib torturers, that may have the attitude of "kill all the Iraqis and let God sort 'em out", are our troops scared shitless all the time, clouding their judgement and making them trigger happy, or is the PNAC led Bu*h administration killing anti-war journalists in order to silence them and/or send a message to other journalists to keep their mouths shut and their pens in their pocket? If the Bu*hies had not committed so serious a crime as lying our country into war, I would have a much harder time considering the latter as a possibility. But IMO, anyone that would lie the most powerful nation on earth into war would have no problem killing a few journalists if they felt it to be expedient.

Here is an excerpt from a BBC interview with Giuliana Sgrena. I deleted the interview questions in order to fit these 4 paragraphs, that are Ms. Sgrena's responses to the questions, in order to adhere to DU guidelines.

Transcript: Giuliana Sgrena interview

We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us and he tried to cover me and he was shot. He died and, me, I was safe but he was dead.

We had no signal. We were just on the way to the airport. They started to shoot at us without any light or signal. There was no block, there was nothing. It was so immediate. I didn't know how I was alive after all that attack.

We were not a hidden car. We were just a car on the road with lights and we were not running without any signal. So you have to ask the Americans because we don't know what happened.

Our car was destroyed. And then the driver got out and was shouting "we're Italian, we're Italian". So they came and they saw what happened. But I was badly injured so I can't explain exactly what happened after because I was waiting for 20 minutes on the road for a military car to bring me to the hospital.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm

Pentagon memo blames Italians for Iraq shooting

An internal Pentagon memo said Italian security forces failed to make arrangement for the safe passage of a released Italian hostage who was wounded when US troops opened fire as she was being driven to the airport in Baghdad, The Washington Times reported on Tuesday.
snip----
The US military has said its forces gave ample warning to the driver of Ms Sgrena's car, which they said was approaching at speed when they opened fire.
snip----
The internal Pentagon information memo obtained by The Washington Times mentioned the dangerous conditions of the road Ms Sregna was travelling on, where it says mistaken shootings have resulted in a "few deadly incidents" since March 2003. However, it blames the Italians for Friday's incident
snip----
"The journalist was driving in pitch-dark and at a high speed and failed, according to the first reports, to respond to numerous warnings.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1318993.htm

Italy Disputes Shooting Account

"The car was traveling at a speed that couldn't have been more than 40 kilometers (25 miles) per hour," Fini said. He said that a light was flashed at the car after a curve and that the gunfire — lasting 10 or 15 seconds — started immediately afterward, disputing U.S. military claims that several attempts were made to stop the car.

Italy's "reconstruction of the tragic event ... does not fully coincide with what has been communicated by U.S. authorities," said Fini. He added that the "sequence of acts carried out by the U.S. soldiers before the shooting" is one of the main discrepancies.

In a statement released Friday night, the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said that the vehicle was "traveling at high speeds" and "refused to stop at a check point."

It said a U.S. patrol "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the military said in a statement. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/08/iraq/main678743.shtml

[bklyncowgirl]

64. My theory given what we know.

The Italians coordinated with the US authorities but somehow the word didn't get passed along to the unit who did the shooting. Unless evidence emerges to indicate that this information was deliberately withheld, this remains to me the most likely scenario.

When the American troops realized that they'd shot at an allied civilian car (although both Calipari and the driver were Italian secret service so I don't know whether they qualify as civilians)they did the right thing--reported the incident and got aid to the wounded.

I believe what the US is covering up it's own incompetence and defensiveness about its shoot first and ask question later tactics. By refusing to admit a mistake, they are fueling conspiracy theories at home and throughout the world.

There needs to be a full investigation. The US press is all too eager to defend this administration no matter what they do. Hopefully the Italian press will hold their feet to the fire so that Nicola Calipari's heroic death will not go unanswered

[Bluebear]

68. "I feel confident in stating" and "My conclusion"

Everything else aside, I think the use of those two phrases is the critical downfall of the essay. There is no evidence to proclaim that any one scenario is true. Even the "multinational forces" have ordered a "probe" of the situation:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20050308/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_050308162356

For you to publish now "the attack was not deliberate" in conclusive terms is not up to your usual standard of examining 'truth'.

Not that you asked :)

[Ganja Ninja]

69. I agree it was probably an accident.

I just don't think regular GI's would be used to murder a journalist. If Bush wanted her dead they would have used an Iraqi death squad and made it look like insurgents did it.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

70. No matter what, it's a mess.

When Sgrena made the statement that she thought it was related to a possible ransom I felt that was unlikely. That was just my gut feeling. Her statement doesn't make very much sense to me. The only information I have to go in is what I've read in the press. It's sketchy at best and missing most of the information that is needed to prove one way or the other the cause of the attack. At this point I'm not sure what the reason for the shooting was and I'm trying to keep my mind open as new information comes in.

If this were a failure to communicate it was a major one. One that would show major problems within our military. The US created the situation that currently exists in Iraq and They're the ones who shot at her. They are the responsible party no matter how this plays out.

My understanding is it will be a month before anything further is really known from Italy. I don't expect to hear much else from the US before Italy has completed their investigation. It's a waiting game now while the US plays damage control.

[Pooka Fey]

72. The constant lying by the ** Administration is causing the American people

to experience psychological distress on a mass scale. Have you ever been in or known someone who is in a relationship with someone who lies constantly? Probably yes; considering how prevalent alcoholism and drug addiction are in our society. Now we have a 'Drug Addict in Chief', a 'King Liar' surrounded by enablers and vicious power hungry thugs who lie constantly and challenge, even threaten, anyone who dares to discover the real truth. Anybody remember the Anthrax letters?

No one who is in the position of being lied to constantly is able to maintain their mental health. That is the reason for the 'flaming' posts (emotional outbursts), and the reason why the red-state sheeple march in lock-step chanting "America is No. 1" despite all evidence to the contrary (psychic numbing, denial).

In Dante's "The Inferno" - the liars are cast into the deepest levels of Hell. Lies are more egregious than sins of greed/appetite or sins of violence. A lie cuts to the heart of society, and renders civilized and productive discourse impossible.

I happen to believe that this Italian journalist was deliberately targeted for death. I don't believe that the fact that the assassination attempt failed is a valid or logical argument that the shooting must therefore have been accidental. The shooters didn't count on the heroism of Calipari, they couldn't control all the variables and still maintain their cover story of an 'accident'.

But how will we ever really know the truth with the current U.S. administration in control of the information, with their demonstrated disregard for facts and inquiry? I know that the American government lies deliberately and with impunity.

It doesn't mean we, and ESPECIALLY you, Mr. Pitt, a wonderful writer and reporter, should give up the search. We're counting on you.

[Zuni]

97. Bush lies all the time

and I am sure many of the 'conspiracy theories' are true. For example, I think Jeff Gannon got into the Press Room with the assistance of one Karl Rove. That is uteerly plausible.

But I have not seen any evidence that this woman was targeted. If she was, they had a perfect opportunity to kill her.

Why would they let her get away and why would they have left witnesses?

[Pooka Fey]

110. Many on this thread have addressed your questions

You are repeating Will Pitt's arguments exactly.

The U.S. government is close to, but not yet at, the point where we can openly murder European citizens. They had to be able to plausibly maintain their story that it was an accidental shooting. Perhaps the Italian agent was the intended target of the hit, rendering any further murders unnecessary.

Any evidence of the crime (the car) was removed and tampered with and cleaned up immediately after the incident, (The Army LOST the car??!!!). The Italians were not allowed to keep their cell-phones after they encountered their attackers, so they were unable to contact people in their own government who could have immediately documented their story.

In the pack of relentless, self-serving, manipulative, bold-faced lies that jerry-rig together the U.S. account of the incident; how can you talk about 'seeing evidence' that the journalist was targeted??? We're not ALLOWED to see the evidence. All we have are the accounts of the incident from the survivors. The Italians don't have a documented record of lying to Americans, unlike the U.S. government; so I believe their account. But that's just me.

[tinonedown]

73. Wow. Great clarity in your thinking process

And once again proving the left is the leader of unbiased thought processes. We ROCK!

[John BigBootay]

74. Excellent analysis n/t

[ultraist]

76. I think it's premature to be confident this was not intentional

A few observations:

I don’t know his age, his rank, where he is from, where he trained. I am confident, however, that he did not join the military to shoot journalists and Italian secret service agents. The fact that this happened speaks to the fear that this soldier must endure because his Commander in Chief has dropped him into a meat grinder with a very large gun.

"He did not join the military to shoot Italian SS agents."

The soldier's original motive for joining the military proves it wasn't intentional? ummm...I believe soldiers of his rank merely take orders. Furthermore, I don't think anyone assumes this was an arbitrary action of one soldier.

This soldier was fated to shoot Calipari man from the moment Bush and his people chose to invade Iraq come hell or high water. He was fated to shoot Calipari since Bush and his people began their campaign of lies about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction, al Qaeda connections, and about the threat to the world posed by that country. He was fated to shoot Calipari since the decision was made to raze Fallujah to the ground, an action which motivated Sgrena to go there and report on it, an action that placed Calipari inexorably into the path of that bullet.

He was "fated" to shoot Calipari due to the "Bush's campaign of lies?" How does that disprove that he was not ordered to do so? If Bush's war is based on a "campaign of lies" it's seem reasonable to consider that this incident was yet another dishonest and corrupt move. I find that paragraph very vague and overly emotive.

Sorry, but I don't see any compelling evidence in this essay to convince me to give the corrupt Bush administration the benefit of the doubt at this point.

I'm withholding judgment on this until more facts are revealed. But, I tend to distrust Bush and work out from there rather than operate from the premise that it's unlikely the Bush admin would do such a thing. I simply cannot dismiss the possibility that it was intentional by chalking it up to "fate" or the 'motive the soldier had for joining the military.'

I'm not a writer, but as a reader, I did not find this particular essay convincing. I do enjoy your work though, Wil!

[seabeyond]

79. you’re gone. Period. nicola is gone, period

who is to know. from what i am hearing about the car there wasnt 300 rounds shot at car. will have to see

but i agree that if target was journalist, she would be dead. why TRY to kill her then get her help

i still dont believe that italians were trying to run thru post. that makes no sense either, especially how much everyone knows military doesnt mess around

[ultraist]

80. I'm not so sure, they do miss sometimes

Or, maybe the US wanted to send out a warning and didn't intend to kill anyone, but oops, if it happened, it happened. Naw...the Bush Klan wouldn't do such a thing.

[seabeyond]

82. the Bush Klan wouldn't do such a thing.

hence the bigger issue. they are lying dogs, about EVERYTHING. they are even lying here about something. could be nothing and they STILL lie. so because no one in the world can believe anything they say, is NOT the worlds problem. bushco created it. why i teach boys not to lie. no one will believe you when you need to be believed. not a hard one

[ultraist]

111. It's sad...we probably will never really know

[TheWatcher]

81. Will, I do have one question.

Did you consider that maybe the point was not to kill the journalist?

By doing things this way, The Powers That Be successfully get their message across to those who might be considering doing something with the information they have, and the message is clear.

If you have information that is damning to us, and you attempt to use it against us, you die.

We will kill you.

Would this not also be way of sending a message to the Coalition of the "You're with us now, like it or not, and if you step out of line, you're fucked", whatever the intended message was?

By not killing her, the story will ultimately die of, and Italy's government MAY not make much of it in the end. Had we killed her, would not the public pressure, remember, 90% of that population was against the war, have been a bit too much for their government to deal with?


It's another angle to consider, and you must remember Will, with all due respect that is certainly due to you, you are dealing with criminals here. They are liars and killers who will stop at nothing to achieve their goals, and I think few would argue that they have demonstrated that will quite effectively over the past few years.

Sometimes to consider all possibilities, one must think like a criminal.

You can call it all tinfoil if you wish, but isn't it strange to you that when the car was requested for inspection, our military "couldn't find it?" What about the reports that surfaced that they didn't even GO through a checkpoint, that all checkpoints had passed and this happened about 700m from the airport. Is all of this erroneous information that is to be dismissed, or is it relevant?

As for the soldier who shot her, which Soldier would that be, and how are we to know? With the reported excess of 400 Bullets that were alleged to be fired at the car, how can we be sure which one was singularly responsible? Maybe there is something to that.

I have always respected and followed your writing Will, and you have been a great resource of sanity and reason in a country that possesses not much of either anymore. I think what some are asking for, and agreed, some harshly, is for a bit more clarification.

You said this:

"No, if they want you, and they’ve got you bracketed and braced, that’s the end of you. If this attack had been deliberate, we’d be reading Sgrena’s obituary today. It is terrible that she was shot, and she is to be commended for her courage in reporting on the Fallujah incursion from an eyewitness perspective, but the attack was not deliberate."

I just think that some if us feel there needs to be a bit more to make this assessment palpable. You say extensive research was done. Could you elaborate on that? What personally have YOU seen that brought you to the conclusion that this was not deliberate?

Because if all we have is the above paragraph, it feels a bit too speculative.

I hope to hear your thoughts on this

[Frederik]

86. Foreign Minister contests US version

The Italian foreign minister, Gianfranco Fini, has given the following account of what happened when special agent Calisparo was killed and journalist Giuliana Sgrena was injured:


- The agent, Nicola Calipari, had established "all necessary contacts" with the American authorities in Bagdad when he arrived in Bagdad earlier the same day.
- The car was driving "no faster than 40 km/h", which should be about 25 mph.
- The light was turned on inside the car.
- A bright light was suddenly directed at the car from a distance of about 10 metres. The driver hit the brakes and the car comes to a near standstill.
- Then a hail of gunfire is directed at the car.

(http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3218,36-40074 ... )
In French, but can be Babel Fished of course.

Someone here speculated that the GIs might have directed their searchlight at the car, in a split second seen "swarthy" faces and perhaps guns, panicked and fired. But if the light was turned on inside the car, that doesn't make much sense.

Would suicide bombers or drive-by shooters travel with the interior light turned on?

Fini dismissed the claim that the Americans were not informed of the rescue operation.

He did of course say that he didn't believe it was deliberate, being head of Italian diplomacy and all, but to contest the US version this bluntly is rather unusual.

The account presented by Fini is obviously based on what both Sgrena and the other surviving agent has said about the incident. It's unlikely that they have had a chance to exchange memories. The foreign minister must have been pretty certain to go out and contest the Americans like that. So I'm inclined to use the word "facts" about the above points, even though that may be premature. Considering these "facts", what does this resemble more: an accident or an ambush?

[EFerrari]

88. Interesting take but wrong.

Sgrena probably isn't even out of shock yet, so she will make statements that are inconsistent. The driver is already on record. And so is Rome.

I'm in no position to judge who "the most important person" is in this story. The fact is, a guy is dead, and but for him, so would a reporter that was not appreciated in the extreme by Bu$hCo. Fact is, this incident has been hugely played down by our fascist government. Fact is, there is a pattern of journalists getting accidentally killed in Iraq.

Appreciate your work, Will, but can't agree on this one. It's ugly but the facts support the ugly version :(

[Pooka Fey]

114. English translations of Sgrena's statements were inconsistent,

not her statements. This was pointed out by another DUer on another thread who speaks Italian. I just wanted to clarify that. It goes towards her credibility, which is under such attack from U.S. media right now.

[EFerrari]

130. Thanks. One would expect both?

If I'd been in that situation, I'm sure my details would be addled. And translation is always a problem

I read Spanish, Italian and Portuguese, so in this case anyway, I got to look at the Italian press in the original. (Which is already a few steps from what she said :) )

[Pooka Fey]

131. Awesome. Another multi-lingual American. That's always a good thing.

My second language is French. Anybody want to bet how fast someone will reply to this post asking me why I hate America?

[donheld]

89. Will this looks like what they call the "fog of war"

It's really hard to know what the truth is in this and many other tales we hear. Thanks for helping us shift through all the shit.

[Zuni]

91. I do not think she was targeted

the whole thing was a fuck up because of panicky soldiers

[drjc1]

98. Nicola Calipari and the Soldier who Shot Him"

Does it really matter? There have been too many "friendly fire" deaths.
Iraqi civilians are fired upon every day. With the "most highly trained" military as it is touted by everyone in this administration,
these types of killings should be minimal. But they aren't, they're frequent. These troops need to be pulled out that's the only way to minimize killings.

[Spinoza]

102. Damn right

It's none of our fucking business if the Iraqis want to kill each other.

[ultraist]

113. welcome drjc1!

:hi:
I agree, deaths from friendly fire is one of the horrors of war. We shouldn't have gone in and we shouldn't be there now.

It's hard to believe this was a fluke accident though. It will take some more facts to convince me.

[Heyo]

100. One thing I haven't seen...

... (and maybe it's out there, I just haven't seen it)..

....is a statement from the driver of the car.

Heyo

[bpilgrim]

104. thats where the quote regarding the speed comes from "20mph"

anyone got a link?

tia

peace

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. I agree

but I still think there are a lot of details missing.

[Disturbed]

112. Arriving at a definte conclusion either way seems to be

premature at best.

I wouldn't take the U.S. Military's conclusion at the end of their investigation seriously. Foxes investigating hen house killing.

An independent investigation is required.

[bpilgrim]

119. exactly

an independent investigation with the Italians involved from beginning to end needs to occur before ANY conclusions can be drawn.

peace

[Laurab]

115. Ah, Will - I'm a huge fan of yours, really I am

and I was just about to post in the other thread you started about this thread, when it was locked. I donated to TO when I couldn't afford to, only because of your writing, and while your writing here is excellent, as usual, I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. As a writer, you have to accept that people aren't always going to agree with you.

Anyway, I really do think you are being a bit thin-skinned here. Aside from a couple of ridiculous personal attacks, I think most of the arguments here are valid.

Honestly, I haven't made up my mind yet as to what I believe, but one thing I do know is that I do NOT trust our Government. Nor do most people on here, and for good reason. I think it's too early to come to a conclusion about this, but I think I would trust just about anyone else before trusting "our" version. It's sad but true, and it applies to just about anything our government says. To me, we're guilty until proven innocent, and while that may not seem fair, they have brought it upon themselves.

But that's just my opinion. You have yours, I have mine. That's one of the great things about DU - we don't march in lockstep. If we did, then it would be time to worry.

Let the little things go, and keep on doing the great work that you do, and know that no one is going to agree with you all of the time, and that's NOT a bad thing. If they did, you wouldn't be doing your job.

[RBHam]

116. Special Ops unit directed directly from the Pentagon...

The identity of the shooters will be classified - we may never know the truth...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

118. I have no idea if this is relevant, but the same day that story broke

so did this one:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/03/05/us_readies_aggressive_counterintelligence_plan/

U.S. Readies Aggressive Counterintelligence Plan

By David Morgan | March 5, 2005

COLLEGE STATION, Texas (Reuters) - The Bush administration has adopted a new counterintelligence strategy that calls for pre-emptive action against foreign intelligence services viewed as threats to U.S. national security, officials said on Saturday.
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The first national U.S. counterintelligence strategy, which President Bush approved on March 1, aims to combat intelligence services from countries hungry for U.S. military and nuclear secrets, such as China and Iran, both at home and abroad, counterintelligence officials said.

Officials at a counterintelligence conference at Texas A&M University described the strategy as an extension of the post-Sept. 11 foreign policy initiative known as the Bush doctrine, which calls for pre-emptive action against nations and extremist groups perceived as threats to the United States.

"The United States has become the No. 1 target for the intelligence collection of other nations," said John Quattrocki, a senior U.S. counterintelligence official.

"What we'd like to do with the counterintelligence program is what we've done with counterterrorism, which is take the fight to other guy's back yard and exploit and interdict where we can, and at home, interdict where we must."

The strategy is due to be released to the public as an unclassified document in coming days.

[KoKo]

121. Yes, that was an interesting connection. It's why many of us who saw

that article believed that it had something to do with the supposed paying of ransom for her as a hostage which goes totally against the Bushie Doctrine. But then, today strangely circulating new news was that no ransom had been paid. What I read was pretty vague about the source of that new news.

So, there's alot here that doesn't add up, but a new Bush Doctrine sort of says "shoot first" and "ask no questions." If you are someone elses intelligence then you are a target. In this case they got both the intelligence agent and a journalist...They hit the jackpot. Doesn't mean Will is not correct that it was a targeted hit but also doesn't mean that it should be ruled out that they wanted to kill them all to make sure more stories wouldn't be coming out about what went on in Falujah in the Italian Press, either.

[bpilgrim]

122. but of course that has no bearing here...

that's just for arab evil doers i'm SURE ;->

the currently known facts are that we - thats all of us - don't know if it was deliberate or not but since the US military, following the orders of our criminal administration, involved with an ILLEGAL WAR & OCCUPATION is HIGHLY suspect in the eyes of the world and DU'ers.



peace

[SpaceBuddy008]

126. If You Can't Convince Them, Confuse Them-Harry S. Truman

usually admire your writing Will, like your other disciples here.

but maybe you need a little break, you are a young man, remember.

here is a site to aid in building sound arguments

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/

like other 's said dazzle us with brilliance, baffling with BS, are THEIR poliTac-Tics

sorry to say but i think 'subconsciosly' you've been snookered and soiled by the peak oil pitchmen and their deceptive OP's and disdain for others viewpoints

please go to www.davesweb.cnchost.com...start with newsletter #52 then #53 and #70

and be prepared to 'UNLEARN' and be totally fascinated and blown away

The Italian secret service would be intelligent enough to ensure safe passage, and there is a report to attest to this

Foreign conquests require a domestic 'programming' component at home

and we should be prepared to identify the conditioning

free market, free market..one doesn't here that anymore
do nothing we can do about it thinking, chicken little strategies pave the way for new Virulent Capitalism?

keep being true to yourself , you have a soapbox, there are plenty who would compromise and force agenda's of parameter policing, thoughtguarding and groupthink steering, stifling

keep up the good work, but from a creativty, problem solving book called a Kick to the Side of the Head..- there is a concept where the group defer's to the sharpest, on the money mind at that time, and this can always change as some people maybe better at organizing recede and others better at theorizing, logic lead for awhile

it is about results and avoidance of wheel spinning

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/