High Tuition Debts and Low Pay Drain Public Interest Law

[The Backlash Cometh]

Okay, I'm willing to admit there are good lawyers out there and they deserve our support. Here's an article we should all read:


Often saddled with huge debts taken on to pay for their legal educations, more and more law school graduates are finding it hard to work in low-paying positions as public defenders, legal aid lawyers and — notwithstanding the popularity of "Law and Order" — prosecutors.

When Paula J. Clifford landed a job in the district attorney's office in Bristol County, Mass., in 1998, she was thrilled — until she realized how difficult it would be to repay $70,000 in law school loans on her $26,000-a-year salary.

To make it work, she kept her college bartending job at the Chart House Restaurant on the Boston waterfront, occasionally serving drinks to defense lawyers she had faced in court. She lasted almost five years before her debts became more than she wanted to bear.

"I had to make a life decision," said Ms. Clifford, who joined the Boston office of a prestigious firm in October. "I was 31 and living in an apartment in my parents' house, driving a car with 235,000 miles on it."

Histories like Ms. Clifford's are becoming more common, lawyers warn. Even more than tuition at other schools, the cost of legal education has been soaring in recent years. Experts say the trend threatens a segment of the legal profession that has long depended on lawyers who are willing to give up big salaries for moral satisfaction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/12/national/12LAW.html?hp

[jiacinto]

1. I am not a lawyer

But I went to graduate school and have an MA. I work for a nonprofit organization here in Florida. I had to spend literally thousands of dollars to move here. And frankly I understand the crunch that this person faces. For now I am going to work here, although (due to several confidential circumstances) I don't see myself staying where I am for much more than a few years.

[union_maid]

2. I work with public interest lawyers

My sister is one, and a fine one, at that. She drives a Hyundai Elantra. Just canceled cable so she could pay off her credit cards. She has no pension and just has whatever she's been able to put into a socially conscious IRA to retire on. She never had any student loans. She went to a top law school in the days when a middle class family could afford to give their kids an education. She makes about 15 percent of what she could be making if she'd graduated from the same school and spent her whole career in a more lucrative area. She doesn't really begrudge any of that. She's done some great work and has as much passion for social justice as when she started her career. What's more alarming is that the Republicans would like to see most of these organizations gone. Defunded, or refunded in ways that will make them much less effective. As it is, there's no way they can provide services to everyone who needs them. Just not enough resources.

[jiacinto]

4. I admire that

But I am going to say that working in the non-profit sector can often be very draining emotionally. It often means long hours for little pay. And frankly, after a while, it gets tiring. I admire those who stay here more than a few years. But after that point it starts to wear people down and then they are no longer effective.

I applaud people who work in the non-profit sector for the long term, for years and years of low pay. I really do.

[shrike]

15. Your sister's a hero

I so admire people who make those choices. I am a writer by trade, which all in all is a selfish profession.

[sandnsea]

3. My son wants to be a teacher

When I look at the cost of college and the pay he'll receive, no more than that lawyer's most likely, I'm honestly not sure what to tell him. I had told him to become a lawyer, but that doesn't even look like a good idea.

:-(

[jiacinto]

5. Don't force him into a legal career

Law school costs so much money and frankly the legal career is not as glamourous as people think.

[sandnsea]

8. I can't force my son to take out the garbage

He's the most independent person I have ever known, always has been. But on the garbage, all I have to do is ask. No it's not because I'm a good mom. He came that way.

That's why I think he'd make a marvelous lawyer. But he wants to be a teacher, which is absolutely fine with me. I just want my kids to be happy. But I'm looking at the costs of loans and it's looking like he's going to be in $40,000 anyway by the time he's done. Plus, he runs track. He's hoping for some scholarship money. But there again, our nearest school is the best track school in the country, he's not quite that good. So does he stay home to cut down the costs and just attend that school, or does he possibly take on more costs in order to continue with track. You're only young once and all of that.

*sigh* Sorry to bore you with my troubles. How's your hurricane coming along? I read your posts last night and I am thinking of you!

[jiacinto]

11. Won't know until next week

But frankly going to school is going to result in loans for the vast majority of people. It's something that we all just need to accept.

[shrike]

16. This is why I'm planning to offer nieces and nephews help with college

I don't have kids myself, so I plan to offer some support to siblings who do.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. You're a good person.

I actually encountered a self-righteous white student who begrudged the number of loans available to minorities. When I pressed him, I discovered that his parents made more money than most minority families do, but his family refused to help him pay for college tuition. My experience is that minority families don't just depend on loans. The parents sacrifice to no end to contribute to the tuition. It does become a family project.

I just don't see how the young students of today can handle a job AND study for four classes. In addition, since our campuses are getting more privatized, they get gouged by franchised food concessions and don't get me started on publishers who should be ashamed of themselves for what they charge for textbooks. I am constantly shocked by the burden we continue to put on the young.

[jiacinto]

20. This white student is full of it

I am 1/2 Hispanic and let me tell you that if there are "so many loans avaiable to minorities" I haven't seen them. I have lots of student loan debt to pay back from college and grad school. Those same loans "avaialable to minority students" are also avaialble for whites. Last I heard programs like the Stafford Loan and private loans were available to everyone regardless of race.

I worked through school and let me tell you how hard it is.

[seventhson]

6. I represent poor people on about $11.66 an hour

sometimes I make more, but if I rock the boat and challenge the judges and state prosecutors, etc. I am looked at as a troublemaker.

You all know me as a troublemaker here.

But trying to feed my kids and pay for medical/dental care etc is almost impossible living near or below the poverty line.

I fight hard and hope the angels notice...

and help out.

The fact is that public interest or "activist" lawyers who fight the power get fucked over daily as do their clients. It is a travesty.

But still I fight on for peanuts (and I make lunch of peanuts and bananas often)

[seventhson]

7. P.S. I drive a Ford Escort and do appeals

for practically nothing.

But I kick ass, too.

My student loans have blossomed into massive debts which I cannot pay and still I just fight on.

Thanks for posting this.

Gore/Dean or anybody but Bush/Kerry in 2004

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. You're in the trenches.

I don't think I could survive in the trenches because I get angry too easily and my mouth just goes off in fifty different directions. Not too eloquently, I might add. Especially if I'm representing someone else's rights. And knowing how prosecutors and judges have special relationships, and hearing you say that you can get a rep for being a trouble-maker, tells me I would never make it as a trial lawyer. I'm not diplomatic enough. But there are ways that I could be quite helpful, because my passion is a driving force when it comes to doing tedious work. Ironically, there are jobs in the legal field that can make more money than a public defender.

I know it's not worth much, but you have my respect.

[DBoon]

9. A big prob with loans vs. grants (or lower tuition)

Makes new graduates very worried about money, and very conservative about lifestyle choices, at exactly the time in their lives when you would expect the opposite.

Net effect is a sinister control over people's behavior - it has a chilling effect on one's options.

[LWolf]

10. Yes and no.

Yes; high tuition and low pay drain the pool of avaible workers for every public service job. Not just law. I'm a teacher. I'm in my 10th year of teaching. I have almost completed two different masters, but have put them on hold because I'm still paying for my BA and teaching credential (student loans), and most of the classroom supplies and materials I need to do my job. When you take those two categories out of my budget, I barely make a living. My car just turned 200,000 miles, but another payment for something new is out of the question. My son chose not to go on to a 4 year university; he took his general ed at a community college to save $$, and then didn't transfer. He makes as much money at his current job as I do with no student loans to pay or years to invest.

No. My son's best, life-long friend graduated from Berkeley this spring. He just finished his first week at Yale. He's going to be a civil rights lawyer, and, if I know him, a damn fine one. His academic scholarship will pay half. He'll leave Yale owing $150,000 or so in student loans. He's terrified. And hopeful.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Well, there will probably be a huge market for civil rights lawyers

in the coming years. So it's a timely graduation.

An education in the legal field has many rewards, even if you don't end up a lawyer. The problem is that you can use the analytical skills you learn for good, or for greed. And it sounds like, in the end, greed will win.

[philosophie_en_rose]

14. The curse of nonprofits!

is that no one is paid what they're worth. There are fast food workers who make more than people in my office. In addition, attorneys who work for the public or do a great deal of pro bono are never rewarded like attorneys who are paid to attack rape victims and plunder the environment.

[davsand]

18. Who gives a crap about equal acess to justice?

I worked organizing Pro bono programs up till a year ago last march. I was amazed at the number of attorneys who do pro bono work and get no recognition or even thanks for it. There are a large number of lawyers who are not sharks wearing suits. The practice of law is one of the only careers that actually makes charitable works a part of the expectations for the profession...

Now, having said that, I will tell you that it is my firm feeling that very few people in this country give a shit about poor people in the court room. I don't care what party they belong to, both sides have not been too good about funding for stuff like legal services or funding for pro bono programs. We barely have funding for Public Defenders, it should come as no shock that the rest of poor peoples' legal needs gets short shrift.

If you are poor and kill somebody you will be assigned an attorney--the law says it has to be that way. If you are a poor woman whose husband tries to kill you, you will be lucky if Legal Sevices can represent you anytime in the near future.

I realize it isn't that way everywhere, but I've talked to women who needed an OP (Order of Protection) in order to stay in a women's Domsetic violence shelter. They were told that legal services were "too busy" to represent them. They called our progam in a last ditch effort to find someone--anyone--to help them.

There is a shortage of people to go into PIL but I really feel there is a serious disconnect in our society when it comes to the issue of legal representation for the indigent.

Laura

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. Special organizations might be the answer.

Because we don't seem to respond to the needs of indigents as one large group, perhaps we should continue to support those organizations that "specialize." For example, the NAACP assists in cases which involve black Americans. There must be hundreds of other organizations that do the same, but are not as well known. You know there must be an equivalent organization for latinos, certainly one that addresses immigration issues -- but they're not as well publicized and if noone knows about them, they don't get any financial support.