Probably my last DU post: Is there any room left for me?

[NCN007]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was born and raised a democrat in one of the most liberal and progressive parts of our country, the SF Bay Area. I strongly believe in the right of a woman to choose whether or not to have an abortion, the right of gays marry, adopt, and enjoy the rights of any other citizen, the necessity for social programs, the importance of protecting the environment, and most of all the freedoms granted to us as Americans. Being from Berkeley I saw freedom exercised on a daily basis. After 9/11/01, I felt it was my obligation to do something to protect the freedoms that I had enjoyed growing up, so I joined the military. I joined this forum to keep in touch with my liberal roots. But the more I read the more I feel alienated by the core of the left. The hatred here towards anything remotely right wing and/or supported by the president, especially the military is rampant. Is there room left in this party for someone who supports the war on terror? Who doesn’t blame the US for 9/11? Who thinks that despite any ulterior motives for getting involved, democracy in Iraq and spreading across the Middle East is a good thing? Is there anyone else out there who still believes that we live in a great nation? Or should I just check the independent box at the next opportunity?


Flame on

edited for clarification regarding gays

[Dookus]

1. one note

I'm not "practicing a lifestyle". I'm living a life.

[The Straight Story]

6. Practice makes pervert I always say

Me, I practice sex with anything that moves - especiall a pretty red-headed wife named AutumnMist here :)

Just joshing ya, but to me we are all practicing something ;)

[NCN007]

8. Apologies

[Rapcw]

2. Bye, I'm sorry you felt the need to leave

:hi:

[Blue_Tires]

3. it's up to you

remember, this board is NOT affiliated with the party

[mondo joe]

4. No lifestyle here either

Just a life.

And if you think lying to the US and congress to go to war for a secret ulterior motive is acceptable, I don't think there is a place for you among patriots, here or elsewhere.

[faithfulcitizen]

5. there is, and the dem party and du are, imo, very different

I feel the way you do on much of what you said, but I take a beating on these boards. ;) Though, you're way more optimistic on Iraq than I am. For the record, THANK YOU for serving our country! God Bless!

[marmar]

7. It's the hate that hate made, buddy...

Democracy spreading across Iraq and the Middle East? Now that's funny!

[ultraist]

18. 'Libruls don't support the troops' where have we heard that before?

WHO VOTED for MORE VA benefits? Who voted for a candidate that said the backdoor draft would be eliminated and troops would start getting pulled out of Iraq?

"The hatred here towards anything remotely right wing and/or supported by the president, especially the military is rampant"

Of course we hate the homophobic, racist Repuke party. They are evil cowards.

You support Gays to "practice their lifestyle" WTF?

[ultraist]

Here we go again, 'libruls are bad, I'm leaving' thread! LMAO

:nuke:

[marmar]

28. Agreed...

I don't want to sound so unsympathetic, but c'est la vie. There is no such thing as a give-and-take relationship with this administration, which is composed of extremist idealouges. Our reactions are reality-based, not this Matrix world that Bushitler wants us to live in.

[Siyahamba]

9. There is room for everyone here.

But bear in mind, not everyone will agree with you. That is true for everyone on DU; everyone has some belief that another DUer disagrees with.

[American Tragedy]

36. Absolutely right.

As an example, being a lefty libertarian, I have to admit I occasionally feel like my head is about to explode after encountering a Castro thread. Accordingly I'm sure that I sometimes perplex socialist members of DU.

The website is actually a fairly diverse cross-section of the left side of the political spectrum, so it's naturally somewhat fractious.

[quinnox]

10. I can't deny there are some questionable

posters here from those that seem to hate all things military and blame U.S. troops at every opportunity, but it is just a few members as far as I can tell. They don't represent the overall opinion of DU members at all. Heck, there are self-identified communists here at Du, they say it openly. Just keep that in mind.

[Old and In the Way]

48. Also keep in mind, that not everyone is who they may seem.

Some of the more outrageous and extreme posters might well be making shit up to make the majority of us look bad. It's rather easy to pick a name, do a lot of posting in the Lounge, come into a political discussion and announce, "our soldiers are baby-killers". Then run back to his RW playground and link to what those wacky DUers are saying. I'd be willing to wager the majority of self-avowed "communists" posting here are more likely to be reactionary juveniles who think they're pulling a fast one on us.

[quinnox]

51. Yea, there is that

I don't doubt it.

[Tux]

11. I am

In support of war on terrorism and destroying terrorist organizations. I don't like how we let Bin Ladin off the hook.

In favor of treating service men and women as honorable folks that deserve our respect.

In belief that U.S. and terrorists are both responsible but we can fix our problems.

Favor of a Democratic party for all liberals as long as they can agree to disagree.

[beam me up scottie]

12. Just out of curiousity,

what is your news source?
I'm not trying to pick, I am just wondering why your views are so different than those found on DU.

[NCN007]

26. Anything I can get my hands on

For a more rounded picture

[beam me up scottie]

37. Thank you.

I ask because I work with pubs and they can read the same article as me but tend to perceive things much differently. It's always the rest of the world against us. I get ragged on because I consider myself a global citizen, not a nationalist. They stop short of calling me a traitor because I happen to be the only veteran.

[7th_Sephiroth]

13. i really am angry with the military right now

war twists peoples minds, and the army, and marines, those who see the worst horrors dont get thier minds untwisted, and i worry about WHAT they will be when they return, i dont blame them for the monsters that they return as, but it starts like Abu Ghraib, concious choices that lead to insanity

[jojo54]

14. Hey, Raiders fan

Just so we're on the same page here: it's not that we're against the war on terror, it's not that we're blaming the 9/11 on the "US", it's not that we're against the military or anything supported by the president...........

We just want the f__king truth!!! That's all. It doesn't cost anything......wait, that's not true. It's cost us a lot. Anyway, the truth is all we want to hear and * doesn't know how to tell the truth. So, what are we left with when we can't even believe the alleged "leader" of our country? Don't get me wrong, your opinions are your own and you are free (at least for now) to state them whenever you want. But so are we. And this is the place to hear it all.

[Atman]

15. No, there is no room.

"Who thinks that despite any ulterior motives for getting involved, democracy in Iraq and spreading across the Middle East is a good thing?"


An "ulterior motive" is neither a legal or moral reason to invade a soveriegn nation, no matter how much good you think it did. It is a criminal act, and the party of the criminal spent $70,000,000 of our tax dollars trying to remove the last president for getting his dick sucked.

Rationalize the hell out Bush's actions if you must. That doesn't make them any less criminal. It just makes you a supporter of a criminal action. We are a nation of laws, last I heard.

Or at least, we used to be.

Thanks for your 139 posts. See ya.

[mondo joe]

19. Thank you!

It's hard to rationalize someone ragging on DU for not being sufficiently patriotic while advocating an illegal war - as long as you got some good stuff out if it, y'know.

[RagingInMiami]

16. Go Raiders

[The Straight Story]

17. If you can handle the military and Iraq, et al, you can handle the heat

here IMHO.

I for one love our military, the people in it mostly, and their dedication to their duty. That does not mean I feel the same about the people running the military.

Bush people those people in harms way for little gain to the people they are sworn to defend. HE is the problem, not the people who do the job they were given.

[Somawas]

20. Personally, I appreciate the military.

I supported the war in Afghanistan because it had a relationship to the war against terrorists. Don't support Iraq. And the alleged spread of freedom (we'll have to see) is a long way after the fact. An argument based on "The nature of the ends justifies the means." And it has nothing to do with MY freedom, no matter how many times the Chimp says differently.

But I appreciate the military. And I think that the cuts to veterans benefits and the way that members of the Guard and the Reserves are being treated is criminal.

[ultraist]

exactly. Spreading Democracy? No, it's an illegal war!

"democracy in Iraq and spreading across the Middle East is a good thing? "

Why is it people get upset when we don't agree with RW talking points, like "spreading democracy?"

[uppityperson]

21. I don't hate the military, I hate the use to which they are being put.

I support my country all the time and the administration when it deserves it. Democracy is a good thing, but ramming it down the throats of people under false pretenses isn't. Hang around and check out things for a while more, or leave,it's up to you. You will find all kinds of people here and can listen/read them or not.

[WillowTree]

22. I understand why you might feel that way.

And I'm sorry that it's come to that.

Thank you for your service, and please stay safe.

[kentuck]

23. What kind of bullshit is this ????

"The hatred here towards anything remotely right wing and/or supported by the president,..."

Is there room? What specifically sent you over the edge??

[Laurab]

24. One note

The president does not support the military. Ask most of them.

[NCN007]

30. Not true

In my experience, most of them support him because they think he supports them. At least more than Kerry would have.

[ultraist]

33. Maybe they are buying into the propaganda.

Bush does not support the troops or he would not have sent so many to their death needlessly and CUT VA benefits.

Not to mention, sending them into combat with inadequate equipment. "You go to war with the military you have." `Rummie

[faithfulcitizen]

35. unfortunately your're right...

but that does't make it true. People in the service HAVE to believe that, in a way. But, if ya hang around some retired military folk, you get a very different picture.

[LynnTheDem]

54. No he isn't right.

40% of officers, who make up 15% of the entire military, are NOT republican.

68% of enlisteds, who make up 85% of the military, are NOT republican.

No, "most soldiers" do not support bush or republicans.

[Laurab]

40. Like I said

ask most of them. Unfortunately, we won't know what Kerry would have done, but I do believe he would not have taken benefit after benefit away from them. My nephew, who I believe is now in Iraq with the Army, (he was supposed to go in March), said everyone in the military that he talked to was hoping for a regime change. Here - not there. Also that they should be in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

He mainly talked about all the things that had been taken from them by his shrubness. Most of them were the very things my nephew had signed up for. He was a poor kid with not much going for him, and saw it as a future. He even re-signed, like an idiot, during the Afghan war.

I believe Kerry would have supported them in the right way - not with a magnet on a car. He WAS one of them.

[asjr]

47. John Kerry was actually in a war. Our pResident

did his damndest to stay out. He cares for no one but himself and his corporate buddies. I was a lifelong Republican from Eisenhower through George 41. I woke up. You believe what you want but this old lady knows what is going on and refuse to drink the Kool-Aid. Right now the Republicans are trying to slash everything that is good for this country. And if Shrub actually cared for the troops, he would get rid of Rumsfeld and the PNAC people.

[LynnTheDem]

49. WHOA!!! Now that is 100% pure BULLSHIT.

You been drinking that thar koolaid, boy!

Enlisteds are 85% of the US military; 1/3 are republicans, 1/3 are Dems, and 1/3 are Indys.

Officers, 15% of the US military, do lean republican; apx 60%.

No, "most" certainly do not support bush. And if you read S&S, MT, and even the AT, you'd know that.

I know it; I live on the largest free base in the world with a career-officer husband.

[Old and In the Way]

62. He should have left well enough alone.

Yeah, our troops love to be led by an AWOL chickenhawk, shedding blood to support Enron's profits, vilified by the citizens of Iraq as occupiers, while they getting shafted on personal body armor and basic supplies. If they are lucky to survive their tour in one piece, they can look forward to getting shafted by this administration that pays lip service to their sacrifices and withholds $ for vetran's programs.

Yeah, this guy is a real progressive/liberal. I'll be sorry to see him go. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I think a lot of us support the war on terror

But what we are doing in Iraq is NOT a war on terror.

[LynnTheDem]

57. We do?

I don't support any war on a noun.

I don't support any war on a FLANKING MANOUEVER that is available to anyone on this planet.

And I really don't agree that terrorism can be defeated by any kind of war whatsoever.

If you mean support fighting the root causes of terrorism and going after the criminals who use terrorism, now that I support fully.

[Liberty Belle]

27. DU is not the Democratic Party.

The Party is more broad-based, with room for more divergent views.

Many of us support the military in the sense that we support our troops and want to see the military personnel taken care of and treated with respect.

A fair amount of Democrats may still support the Iraq War based on intelligence that was available at the time, perhaps. Though in hindsight the lack of WMD and the lies told by the President to justify the war have justifiably eroded such support.

I think you'd have a tough time, though, finding many who would support future invasions to spread democracy through the mideast.

First, it violates international law to invade a country that poses no direct threat to the U.S.

Second, it results in tremendous loss of life amoung U.S. soldiers, could lead to a draft as the military's resources are drained, and causes devastating losses among the civilian populations.

Third, invading and killing innocent civilians turns the population against the U.S., creating even more terrorists than are destroyed. This method creates a seemingly endless cycle of violence.

Fourth, it is quite dubious whether the Iraq invasion will really result in a democratic government that is better for its citizens. It now appears likely that fundamentalist Islamists will be running the country--and women fear that their rights will be taken away under Islamic Law. Iraq women have long enjoyed freedoms of Western nations--now they may be forced to don burkas and have their lives severely restricted.

Are those results really worth sacrificing thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis--or citizens of other nations?

[kodi]

29. don't be a pussy, stand and fight. the other side is a lot worse

if you are honest, you have more in common with those on the progressive side than on the conservative side.

articulate with reason and logic your position and you will make allies here or at least your adversaries will respect your path to your positions. if you expect the right to harken to reason and logic you have not been paying attention over the last decade. the right is full of passionate intensity and lies.

if you want them as allies good riddence and here's at you because I find their stances indefensible for a thinking person to have.

[nolabels]

53. Yea, maybe even the original poster might even be gone now

But damn it if you don't stand and fight what use are you? What are you good for? If we can't defend each other then we are easy pickings for anybody. You also can't let your desires dictate what you should be responsibly doing. If you run away and hide then they win also. We can't really protect you unless you help to protect us. It's all reciprocal.

Divide and conquer is practiced by the simplest bands of predators, what makes you think they would be any different?

[cry baby]

31. another goodbye post...I wish you luck in the military. If you have to

go to war, be sure to know in your heart that we, the leftists, are the ones trying to get you home safely and soon.

Here are my personal answers to your questions. The war on terror is different than the war in Iraq, I suspect you know that. Iraq didn't kill thousands of US citizens in our own country. US policies in the middle east are to blame for those people hating us. Those policies go back way before * so I don't really blame him for that, although he could have stopped those policies if he so chose. Democracy might have a chance in the middle east, but the ends never justify the means. I believe that if there is ever peace in the middle east, it will be because Arafat died, not * intervention there. He has pretty much ignored the Israel/Palistinian thing. Our nation is suffering because one political party has all the power and that is not how our country is supposed to be run. There are no checks and balances as the founding fathers designed. Many here at DU check the(I) box too. Go ahead!

I FEEL THAT AMERICA HAS ALIENATED ME. I suspect that is a much worse feeling than you feeling badly that the left is too left.

Please don't try to give a subtle lecture to us by asking loaded questions. Peace be with you.

[wisteria]

32. I agree with much of what you believe in.

You should stay and continue posting simply because the DU needs the diversity of your democratic opinions as well as others in order to stay relevant and grow. We don't always have to agree with one another, but we should welcome and respect all thoughts and ideas even when they differ from our own.

[BikeWriter]

34. Uh, this is a flounce, right? I certainly don't agree...

...with your allegations about our attitude toward the military! Another point, define "war on terror." If you're refering to Iraq you've lost me totally!

[Booster]

38. Well, I read over your questions and I can honestly say I don't agree

with any one of them, so my answer would have to be no. You're free, as of now, to check whatever box you want to, but that may not be true in the near future. I wish you good luck in getting an independent voted into the Oval Office, but it ain't gonna happen for a very long time.

[LynnTheDem]

39. I'm MARRIED to a US soldier who was in Iraq; my nephew is now Iraqmired

What's with this "hate the military" being "rampant" crap???

And how are bullshit elections in a country OCCUPIED by a FOREIGN MILITARY under MARTIAL LAW and the win by those who want a THEOCRACY anything wahtsoever to do with "spreading democracy"???

How does one "spread democracy" by INVASION and OCCUPATION and killing 100,000 civilians and TORTURE and ABUSE and at GUNPOINT?

What gives you, or me, or America or any other nation on this planet the right to determine a "democracy" is the be-all and end-all for everyone???

A platinum-plated pile of shit is still just a pile of shit.

[FlemingsGhost]

41. When I logged onto to DU just now I said, "what's that smell?"

Then I came across this pile of shit.

Mystery solved.

[rooboy]

42. You can only say the things you say by being ignorant of certain facts.

You must know that many provisions of the PATRIOT Act have nothing to do with protecting the freedom of Americans.

You must know that the construction of fourteen PERMANENT military bases in Iraq has nothing to do with democracy in the Middle East, and that any pretense to being part of the "war on terror" is betrayed by the fact that the US has done NOTHING to hold the Saudi regime to account.

You must know that the president's professed support of the military is contradicted by his contempt for veterans and complete and utter failure to protect the troops.

And nobody has ever declared 'war' on an abstract noun and succeeded.

So goodbye, I guess. We don't have a problem with armies or democracies or presidents - we hate hypocrites and liars.

[Lorien]

56. Well put, rooboy

terror is an emotion; you can't fight a war against an emotion unless your army is made up entirely of psychiatrists. If one declares war against acts of terrorISM then one must search out terrorists who have acted against one's country. Prior to our invasion of Iraq, nobody in Iraq is known to have fit that description. Osama bin Laden, however, is a bonafide terrorist and enemy of the US who is currently hanging out somewhere in Pakistan (by all accounts) and is smiling at all the new recruits signing up to join him after our forces bombed their homes to Kingdom come. A 6'4" bearded man on kidney dialysis shouldn't be that hard to find...

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

52. Are you pretending to be a stereotype, plant-fan? Your post is BS. (nt)

[quinnox]

55. yep ,nice catch

At first i took the original post seriously, but now with this obvious plant post I'm starting to wonder if this is just a hit job.

[Nothing Without Hope]

44. I'm sorry if you feel you must leave. But I do suggest that you think of

DU not as a unit but as a community of many people with a correspondingly varied range of viewpoints and states of mind. Some will participate in calm, constructive discussions with you while others will not. And there is also the feature of the constant updates and links to not only top stories but ones that are in the early stages, often long before they reach the corporate media (if they ever do).

This board serves many functions, some more serious than others. One unofficial function is venting the frustration that we feel with what is happening in this country and the world with an audience that doesn't think we're crazy for being worried and angry. Some threads are really mostly about that, though the rules do impose some gentility and forbid name-calling and disruption.

But meanwhile, other DU posters are putting up serious information and the comments in their threads often contribute special insights, expertise, or unexpected links and adjuncts to the story. I don't know of anything else anywhere that is quite like it.

I would suggest that you be patient with the shrill bits and look for the more serious ones. I would say, for example, that most of us would not object to democracy in the Middle East if the elections were truly run by their own people and were allowed to be fair. It's the FORCING and the DISHONESTY that we object to, not the concept of democracy itself. It's just not something that can be imposed by force, and with the ulterior motives that everyone can see, the attempt has inevitably triggered bigger problems. Besides, how about the state of democracy in, say, Saudi Arabia? What the administration calls democracy in the selected places it seeks to impose it by force is not the same as what I -- and I suspect you -- would consider it to be.

Likewise, I doubt you'll find people here who aren't concerned about preventing terrorism. Again, it's not the idea of opposing terrorism (of course), but rather the strategy for doing so. Most of us believe that the facts indicate that what the Administration has done has INCREASED the number and dedication of potential terrorists while leaving us MORE vulnerable. I've not seen anything based on objective documentation that indicates the contrary.

As for 9/11, so far there is no proof about what really happened, but there is much that has not been disclosed. I would wish for full exposure of the truth, whatever is revealed -- including if the truth exonerated the Administration. (It's awful to suspect one's own government of such a crime, and I would much prefer if the evidence proves them merely negligent.) Yes, I do suspect that the Administration deliberately let the attacks happen for political gain, but as yet there is no proof but only suggestive evidence and a consistent pattern of stonewalling. People who state flatly that Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld ordered the 9/11 attacks are wrong to do so, because at present there is insufficient evidence for this; it may well be untrue.

All in all, you will do what seems right to you. But I do emphasize again that DU is a COMMUNITY rather than a blog that expresses a single person's opinions. As a nonmonolithic community, there will always be some expressed opinions that are compatible with your views and some that will not. If you are in a thread and there is too much flaming going on, I suggest you hit that alert button on an offending post and complain. Flaming and abuse are NOT what DU is about.

[jdj]

45. it depends on what time of day you post, which forum you post

in and who happens to be posting there at the moment, and who in particular responds to your threads.

Don't flatter yourself, it takes all kinds, and we got all kinds. Otherwise this would be called "free republic".

[Zorra]

46. The DLC wants you.

The pResident and the right wing are destroying this great nation faster than I can key these words.

"Is there room left in this party for someone who supports the war on terror? Who doesn’t blame the US for 9/11? Who thinks that despite any ulterior motives for getting involved, democracy in Iraq and spreading across the Middle East is a good thing?"

Well, pretty much everyone here would like to see democracy spread across the Middle East. But it just ain't gonna happen through the gun barrel of a foreign invader. As far as ulterior motives go, Bu*h is nothing but a lying, corrupt POS who should be sentenced to life in prison for involving our "great nation" in a war under false pretenses. Don't you get that part?

Try the DLC, you are their guy.

[Ms. Clio]

50. What a steaming pile

paging Will Pitt.

[ultraist]

63. LOL! Pitt had a good suggestion regarding these "good bye" threads!

EVERY single one of these "goodbye" threads are loaded with RW talking points and how libruls are bad because we don't agree with the Repuke propaganda.

[cry baby]

64. And they always say that "I'm a liberal" .

[SupormomFreeAtLast]

58. Are you saying...

We must support the war in Iraq if we believe that the US is a great nation?
My uncle is a veteran of three wars- Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War I- he is opposed to the Iraq invasion. Does that make him anti-American?
We do live in a great nation AND
The war in Iraq is an illegal military action based on lies and deceptions.

BTW... Thank you for your service.

[Cooley Hurd]

59. Put up or shut up... Start posting links to threads in which...

...there is rampant hatred of the military! Another ex-DUer made the same charge and would never cite examples. Now, it's your turn - list examples, please...:eyes:

[adarling]

60. sad, but oh well

Noone is against the war on terror really, just the war in Iraq and possibly Iran. There was a crime committed when they went to war on terrorism, they lied, They had no intention of following through it. Now i fear that Bin Laden is probably going to hit us hard and still everyone will look toward the dip shit in office for help. Everyone needs to lift the veil on their feelings of peace. we don't live in a time of peace anymore, we haven't since 2000, so get use to it and either make up your mind or leave. God will never put you in something that you can't handle O8)

[Bob3]

61. Well to quote Frank Zappa

"We used to be fantastic, now we're just weird"

As far as hating the army, well the US army didn't used to torture people and take videos of it. That can make people upset. Sure as heck pissed me off. Especially when the Military response was "Protect the corporation".

I support the war on terror, which is why I opposed and still oppose the invasion of Iraq. Iraq is a mistake - a dishonest blind stupid useless waste of blood and treasure that had NOTHING to do with the war on terror. 1500 Americans, and god knows how many Iraqis have died for NOTHING. God knows where it will end but I'm willing to bet cash money Americans will still be dying in Iraq in 2008.

The war on terror has been subverted by this madness in Iraq. This is not some liberal's opinion. This comes from inside the the U.S. Military's own War College.

I'm not sure we should be turning cartwheels over "democracy" in Iraq or in Lebanon, just yet. Like Dylan said "the wheel's still in spin". We'll have to see what happens down the line. If this Iraqi government makes any noises that * does not like, then we'll see just how free they are. And Lebanon? Well when and if the Syrians leave, I suspect the urge to go back to slaughtering each other will prove irresistible.

Democracy in Russia is dying a slow death as that counties autocratic traditions overwhelm whatever democratic impulse there was in in the first place.

This is all been on *'s watch. As you watch this great experiment get shit on by gang of greed heads with a heartful of hate and the lust to punish you do tend to get a little annoyed.

We're losing our soul out there - and if we are not as Lincoln said "our last best hope" then we are just another empire who's time will come and our good will fade into the past along with our broken monuments.

[Moderator]

65. Locking

Flamebait. "Flame on" is even in the original post.