Wisconsin hunter wants open season on free-roaming domestic cats

[donsu]

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=3037721


Hunter Mark Smith welcomes wild birds onto his property, but if he sees a cat, he thinks the "invasive" animal should be considered fair game.
The 48-year-old firefighter from La Crosse has proposed that hunters in Wisconsin make free-roaming domestic cats an "unprotected species" that could be shot at will by anyone with a small-game license.

Hunters will vote on the proposal on April 11th during hearings for the Wisconsin Conservation Congress across the state.

-snip-
--------------------------------


another control freak in action

[jgardner]

1. Grrr...

I don't suppose he'd be happy if his dog and loose and someone shot IT!

[Conservativesux]

16. Bingo!! Hunters use dogs to hunt so they dont care about cats.

What sick pack of idiots would propose this in the first place?

[stevedeshazer]

78. Perhaps he's responsible enough to keep his dog under control

I don't condone shooting pets, but I've had my fill of cats who wander loose in my neighborhood spreading disease and killing songbirds.

Keep your damn cat inside, like I do.

[Canuckistanian]

2. Shucks, yeah! Them's good eatin'!

And they skin real easy, too!

[devilgrrl]

3. WTF????

What an asshole!

[slackmaster]

4. What an asshole

The mentality of cat-haters is really bizarre. I'm convinced that most of them are afraid of felines.

[devilgrrl]

8. IMHO, cat haters are almost always assholes.

In fact, I'll be bold enought to state that cat haters lack character and humanity. They can't take independence.

F*** You Cat Haters!

[Conservativesux]

15. Amen to that !!!

A bunch of sick gun owners who want to kill cats for sport, is all these wackos are.

[TahitiNut]

27. By "cat haters" you clearly mean those who fail to care for them?

:nodding: I thought so. Releasing them to be run over by cars, get poisoned, or be maimed or killed by indigenous animals is surely the behavior of "cat haters."

[devilgrrl]

34. No, I mean Cat Haters, as in assholes who kill them for kicks

As for my cats. My building has a nice courtyard and sure, I let them out so they can lie underneath the shrubs to nap, scratch the trunks of trees and perhaps pee. They'll stay out for an hour or so, then walk up to door to come back in. Gee whiz, and I live on one of the busiest streets in Los Angeles - go figure? :eyes:

[BikeWriter]

264. Have you ever thought this exposes your neighbor's to cat piss?

My garage reeks of it now.

[Coastie for Truth]

311. Jeffrey Dahmer Used to Kill Cats for Kicks

Jeffry Dahmer used to kill cats for kicks when he was a kid in Akron.

[BikeWriter]

255. I agree. Its illogical to expose something you say you love to dangers...

...like that.

[Dorian Gray]

66. Wow...

You just summed up my friend's husband, devilgrrl... And, he hates cats, too! I never thought about the independence factor of cats, but he likes his wife solely reliant on him. What a jerk!!!!!

[BikeWriter]

266. Cat haters are assholes? What does that make people who allow....

...their animals to trespass on his property?

[Name removed]

285. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pepperbelly]

275. I feel similarly about dog haters.

:D

[Lindacooks]

322. Yeah, like Hitler and Napoleon.

Men with an inferiority complex always seem to hate cats (and strong women). Oh, and Genghis Kahn and Mussolini. All cat haters. Not to mention that when the idiots in England thought cats were witches' companions and killed them:

"When the Black Death swept across England one theory was that cats caused the plague. Thousands were slaughtered. Ironically, those that kept their cats were less affected, because they kept their houses clear of the real culprits, rats."

So the idiots who killed cats made the Black Death worse. Fitting.

http://www.bitoffun.com/fun_facts%20animal.htm

[TahitiNut]

5. I could go along with that.

No other 'domesticated' animal is (supposedly) permitted to roam unhindered. Not horses; not cows; not sheep; not goats; not dogs; none. Even children have more restraints. Cats are among the most frequent road-kill. I regard such 'care' to be irresponsible and, at best, a danger to the cat. I just can't comprehend an 'owner' that'd permit a pet to run loose in any neighborhood.

((Donning flame suit.))

[alarimer]

6. They defintely need to be controlled more

But I am not sure having some idiot homeowner taking pot shots is the answer. I would prefer trapping and euthanasia for feral cats. Cat owners need t obe responsible and keep their cats indoors. Cats (domestic and feral) are responsible for decimating songbird populations as well as small mammals.

[TahitiNut]

7. I wonder why ...

... some seem to think it's worse to shoot a trespassing cat doing damage than to shoot a human being doing the same thing. There's a strange zeal about this issue.

[w4rma]

42. The cat isn't going to steal anything, rape anyone or murder anyone.

The cat is not trespassing with the intention of doing any of those things.

The human has a good chance of acting on any of these reasons.

[TahitiNut]

53. I see. So the value of a human life vs. a cat's life doesn't outweigh this

:shrug: Interesting.

Just a few thoughts ...
A pet cat is property. The sole claim any owner might have against anyone who killed the cat would be based in the valuation of the property. When an 'owner' demonstrates a valuation so low as to loose the cat without restraints, the claim against someone who killed it is likewise lowered, essentially to non-existence.

This is a common approach in law and equity. A person cannot be assumed to hold a high value in something if that person doesn't safeguard it. Indeed, companies that claim a value in 'stolen' information which that same company allows into "the wild" have virtually no claim.

[LisaL]

69. So, let me see. If you have your car parked on the street,

it's anybody's game, right? After all, you didn't safe guard it.
It's out there on the street for anyone to trash if they so desire?

[TahitiNut]

80. If it weren't for the laws that specifically cover automobiles ...

... (and their predecessors covering horses), then the presumption of abandoned property having no value would hold. Again, it's a question of reasonable safeguards that demonstrate a value. Try leaving your watch or diamond ring on the curb next to your car and see how far you get under a similar claim. :eyes:

[LisaL]

186. There are also animal cruelty laws.

Just cause you cat is outside doesn't mean you don't value him/her.

[retnavyliberal]

304. What about the cruelty to

the song birds that are encouraged into feeders to be jumped by a neighbors cat.

[Pithlet]

191. Yes, but if someone steals that watch or diamond ring

They will be prosecuted for it. As should someone who shoots a domestic cat.

[slackmaster]

85. Nice job of oversimplifying things, TahitiNut

I spend more on my pets' medical care than I do on my own. Their vaccinations are all current, and they get dental care. But because one of my three cats is permitted to go outside during the day to do his thing and to control the rodent population around my property, you assume I don't hold him in high value.

If my house was on fire I'd pull my cats out long before I made any effort to save you, or just about any other human.

[TahitiNut]

107. Well, I guess a lot of people care more for their property ...

... than for human life. :shrug: I myself was more grief-stricken when my dog died than when my biological father died.

[Lindacooks]

112. So then you would support the same 'solution' for dogs??

So they get to shoot dogs on sight too, is that it?

[TahitiNut]

127. "on sight"?? Gee, where did the story say that? I must've missed it.

:eyes: When you can't argue against what's proposed, just argue against something else and maybe nobody will notice.

[Lindacooks]

282. Right here:

Hunter Mark Smith welcomes wild birds onto his property, but if he SEES a cat, he thinks the "invasive" animal should be considered fair game.

Maybe you have better read the article before you start attacking me.

And your arguments are totally specious (look it up) and irrelevant.

And you didn't answer the question. Gee, what a surprise.

[TahitiNut]

310. Nonsense.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3233160&mesg_id=3236274&page=

[Lindacooks]

320. What, now you're denying reality??

That's what he said. I hardly think that black and white proof is nonsense. And you still haven't answered the question - do you want the same 'rule' to apply to dogs?

[slackmaster]

122. Then we have something in common

I'm always devastated when I lose a pet.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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321. Deleted message

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[retnavyliberal]

305. You have your cat trained to only kill rodents? Wow. Impressive. N/T

[w4rma]

119. No. Your life and the cat's life outweigh any **threat** to your life.

The trespassing cat poses no threat to your life.

The trespassing human does.

[Name removed]

302. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
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here] to review the message board rules.

[cbear70]

174. not shot at, but controlled

I agree that cats need to be controlled... I guess i am an asshole because I hate cats. They destroy my gardens, scratch the hell out of my cars, and made my children sick because my kids have the right to play in my yard.. but the stupid cats pee and poop in the soil ..

and no cats are not the same as children...cats and dogs should be inside. This free roaming stuff is crap... they are to be domesticated. We too trap and take to shelter..and then they are taken care of humanely. Cat owners should be responsible and keep them inside.

[aquart]

231. "Decimating" as opposed to "controlling"?

Cats hunt. They control pests.

[livinginphotographs]

11. My question is:

when did it become the American way to take care of a "problem" by pumping a few rounds into it?

If this guy wants to shoot cats who wander onto his property, then I should have the right to shoot his kids if they wander onto mine. Slippery-slope, anyone?

[Conservativesux]

13. Americans have always liked solving problems with a gun.

Nothing new there.

How in the hell will anyone know which cat is domestic and which is a "feral cat"?

These people are only giving a bad name to hunting.

What bunch of sick morons would like to kill cats anyhow?

[LisaL]

21. No, there is no way the guy could tell.

Furthermore, I presume this guy wants to shoot them in a populated are-like near his home. More chances than not that these would be domestic cats whose owners let them out.

[Scout]

106. If it is a domestic cat....

it should be in it's domicile, not my yard.

[Conservativesux]

257. Cats have to roam. How about keeping those huge dogs indoors?

I just love having a Rottweiler chasing me down the street for practice.

Ever see a house cat do that to people?

They are out hunting small game, not people.

[TahitiNut]

14. About 'slippery-slope' ...

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ss.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[livinginphotographs]

41. My point being that if he gets the OK to shoot domesticated cats

(which is what the article states) where does it end? Cats? Birds? Rodents? Butterflies?

*disclaimer* I believe that all cat owners (and dog owners, for that matter) should get their animals spayed and neutered, and NO domesticated animal should be allowed to roam free, as much for the animal's safety as any other concern.

That said, I also believe that people shouldn't get carte blanche to start firing away whenever something they don't like comes on their property, unless it poses an immediate threat.

[ComerPerro]

44. You'd have to be a hell of a shot

to hit a butterfly.

;)

[TahitiNut]

58. I'm glad the links I provided were so useful to you.

:eyes: I'm always impressed when people gain a firm grasp on fallacious logic.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[livinginphotographs]

75. The guy wants to be able to shoot domesticated cats

Who wander onto his property.

Yeah, I get it. And it's a stupid idea.

[Pithlet]

197. That's what this thread is about!

This guy wants to shoot any cat left out of doors. Because he doesn't like them. All your arguments about cats being left out of doors are one thing, but to defend this nutjob is quite another. For no other reason alone, cat hatred or not, who wants that? I hate loud booming stereos. Kablam! No more tires. If my aim is good, maybe I'll get the speakers. Problem solved! Let's just revert to lawless anarchy.

[TahitiNut]

232. No, it's not.

It's not about anyone shooting anything for any reason. It's about revoking some special legal prohibition and treating a free-roaming "domestic cat" (a formal biological designation) like any other small game animal or pest, for those people who already holding a shooting permit. The specific motivating conditions have to do with this guy's property and the killing of wild birds by such cats. I also see nothing in the story about permitting such shooting other than where it's already permitted.

Most of the defensive hyperbole in this thread accouters itself with characterizations that are plainly contradictory to the plain-reading of the specific situation being reported. The rest, like yours, resort to fallacies like 'slippery-slope' and 'straw-man.' (We're not talking about stereos.)

I personally don't agree that either a feral or a 'free-roaming' cat should be protected above and beyond skunk, possum, squirrels, bobcat, weasels, ferrets, and other small-game animals that might pose even less of a nuisance. Thus, I personally still don't have a problem with what the guy's asking for. It sounds reasonable and consistent with existing laws. If I kept any of the other animals as a pet - and let it run 'free' at times - I'd expect it to get shot.

I eschew "Some of the animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

So shoot me. :shrug:

[Scout]

233. Best post in the thread!

Thank you, thank you, thank you. No more need be said, so I'm outta this thread now.

[Pithlet]

236. Oh

So, you too think that because thinking something magically makes it fact? Cats aren't wild, roaming animals. They shouldn't have their protected status that distinguishes them as such removed any more than any other domesticated animal. I'm sorry. If you shoot someone's dog you should go to jail (or whatever the legal penalty is). Shoot someone's horse, ditto. Cattle. They aren't wild like deer, squirrel, etc. They are property, and you don't get to decide that you should be able to destroy them because you don't' like them.

[Pithlet]

235. Nope.

It's about a guy who wants to be able to legally shoot other people's pets. I can read, too. Domestic cats shouldn't have their protections removed any more than dogs, horses, cattle, etc. The guy (and you) are basing your opinions on the fact that both of you THINK they should be considered the same as free roaming wild animals. But, thinking that doesn't make it so.

[TahitiNut]

245. Gosh, I didn't realize you were a mind-reader!

"... the fact that both of you THINK ..."?? Wow? Even I didn't know that. Can you look into a person's heart, too? :silly:

First, the term "domestic cat" is a term that refers to the species of animal, whether owned as a pet or feral. Varietal distinctions are moot. Owners of pets who let them roam free are placing their 'pet' in a state indistinguishable from a feral cat. It would be the same if it were a pet skunk, a pet ferret, or a pet dog. Personally, if it's a question of the lives of maybe dozens of wild birds (killed for "cat sport") or the life of a feral cat, I'll shoot the cat.

Pet owners have a choice. Let them join the feral cats and let them be shot, or keep them under control, either inside or outside on a leash. Just like dogs. No special 'pet' treatment whatsoever.


FWIW, it's estimated that there're about equal numbers of feral domestic cats and pet domestic cats in the country ... 70-80 million each. They're far from endangered in any way.

[Pithlet]

247. Gee. You're siding with him, aren't you?

Seems to me like I'm not so much of a mind reader after all! Because other people don't treat THEIR pets like YOU think they should, you believe (Just like the hunter!) that it should be okay to shoot them. You did say that, didn't you. Because I don't believe in mind reading. Please, by all means, if you're disgusted at the notion of shooting cats, and cleverly disguised it somehow, then please accept my apology.

My whole point is that shooting them is wrong. I really don't care exactly what you or that guy think about cats. You both think it's okay to shoot them. THAT is the issue I take to task.

[TahitiNut]

249. Well, it's devolved to ad hominems. (All too common on DU these days.)

Resorting to attacks on a person rather than discuss the story and the facts gets nobody nowhere nohow. Sorry to be so blunt, but I attempted to treat it with some humor about mind-reading to no avail. :hi:

Since the message (of the posts) isn't being addressed, just the messenger, why bother? :shrug:

[Pithlet]

290. I didn't attack you.

I'm merely disagreeing with you. I'm disagreeing that people should be able to shoot anything that wonders onto their property just because they don't want it there. That's what the hunter the article is about wants to do. You seemed to think I had trouble reading the article, which is what got my ire up, and why I didn't recognize you were treating this with humor.

I'm not arguing that cats should be allowed to wander free, or that it isn't a nuisance when they do. As controversial among the cat lover world that that is, I happen to think cats should be kept indoors. For the safety of the animal as well as the peace of mind of neighbors who don't want them in their yard. I have a cat, and I do not let him out for those reasons.

[TahitiNut]

300. When someone misstates my opinion and ascribes thoughts and ...

... motivations to me rather than deal directly with the the words I use to express my own opinion and the basis (in facts, principles, and/or values) for that opinion, I regard that as an ad hominem - ascribing a thought to me that I don't possess. Any whining and evasions about "saying it in other words" or "paraphrasing" don't cut it with me. To employ self-serving hyperbole (e.g. "because they don't want it there," and "shoot anything") and then ascribe such hyperbole to another is intellectually dishonest discussion. It's a 'discussion' that's devolved to being messenger-oriented ("I didn't say that!" "Yes, you did!") rather than message-oriented.

[Pithlet]

303. No. I disagreed with you.

And rather than discussing that or debating it with me, you want to paint me in an unflattering light, as if I'm some ammature poster. I did not make an ad hominum attack. I know what that means. If you don't want to discuss the issue in this thread, then I'm done. If you do, I'd be happy to.

[KTM]

256. And when accidents happen ?

When the cat zips out the door as the owner is coming in with a bag of groceries ? When a thoughtless relative doesnt ask if the cat is allowed out ? When your dipshit landlord allows maintenance people in, and ignores your pleas to mind the kitty, dont let him out ? When your 8-year-old's playdate is clueless and chases cute kitty out a window ? Or when some asshole cat-hater purposely lets your roommates cat out of the house ??

In any of these circumstances, the cat is NOT a "freely roaming" animal per se - he or she is a temporary escapee. But sitting on your roof locked & loaded, can you tell the difference ?

Once it is legal to shoot roaming kitties, how can the shooter tell which is wandering at leisure and which is on the lam ?

Does your opinion change if it were a dog ?

[Speed8098]

258. "Does your opinion change if it were a dog ?"

First, I do not advocate shooting ANY domestic animals.

That said, we have a horrible problem in my neighborhood with stray cats. I have called animal control to have them come out and pick up some of these smelly strays. I was told that there are no provisions for picking up cats.
I said, "What if it were stray dogs?" and I was told that, yes, they WOULD come out and pick up a stray dog.

Here on Long Island, and in every other state I've lived in or visited, you must have a license for your dog. If you don't you face the threat of a fine as well as losing your pet to "Doggy Jail" or worse yet, they might even put your dog to sleep.

I'm sorry, but the problem I see is that people give in to their kids when they want the "cute little kitty", but when that "kitty" grows up to be a cat that sprays or rips up their curtains or furniture, they just open the door and let the little animal out to live freely in the neighborhood.

That is WRONG. Cats should be subject to the same rules as dogs.
No license, pick them up.

Every summer, my back yard smells like cat piss.

I have a dog that is ALWAYS confined to my fenced in yard when she is out, but these cats are quick and my dog is old, so she's not much of a deterrent to our feline trespassers. Where is my relief?
My taxes here are extremely high, yet my town won't even address the overpopulation of cats.

What do you suggest we do?

And NO, my dog has NEVER escaped from our control.

[Pithlet]

293. I wouldn't suggest expanding

the list of animals that hunters can kill beyond what they already can. It should be limited to wild game. Any other type of animal isn't sport, and isn't hunting.

I don't understand why some people in this thread are allowing their dislike of cats, and their irresponsible owners, to get in the way of fighting something that should not be happening.

My father is a hunter, and he would be against something like this. It is NOT hunting, and not sport to kill domesticated animals. And it certainly isn't hunting to blast away anything that walks onto your property just because you don't want it there.

[fat free goodness]

157. What?

RE: "My point being that if he gets the OK to shoot domesticated cats (which is what the article states) where does it end? Cats? Birds? Rodents? Butterflies?"

Just how many predatory, feral butterflies, do you have around there!?!

But I see your point, really. If it’s OK to shoot cats that are roaming loose because they "are an invasive species", then it’s a natural step to open season on invasive, non-domestic birds, like the starling. Or OK to squash invasive, non-domestic beetles at will… (Oh, wait. Never mind on that last.)

Thinking about it, maybe the basic concept isn’t so bad. I mean, suppose as an environmentalist you don’t like someone shooting native birds and small game. But Billy-Jo is an avid woodchuck hunter, and is “NOT a-gonna stop huntin!” But what if you promote the hunting of nutria, and starlings, and such. Gives Billy something to do, and reduces competition for native wildlife.

[livinginphotographs]

194. As another poster as accused me of...

I was using hyperbole to prove a point.

And as far as invasive, you don't get much more invasive than human beings.

Since I don't define an animal's value by how useful it is to humans, I think any kind of organized kills or whatever they call them is a disgusting idea.

[SmokingJacket]

18. It's in the nature of cats to wander, though!

They're not like kids -- they're animals with different needs.

When I had a cat, I let it wander knowing full well it would be safer locked up inside. I felt responsible for it having a decent life, not a perfectly safe life.

The occasional squashed cat in the road is sad but inevitable.

When I was a kid, dogs wandered around freely in our small town.

People should chill out!!

[TahitiNut]

22. You could say the same about ANY domesticated animal.

:shrug: "You are responsible for what you tame." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[slackmaster]

26. Spayed/neutered domestic cats really don't wander very far

They stay within 50 yards of their home most of the time.

[LisaL]

29. Not true at all. They can get pretty far away from home.

[slackmaster]

50. Mine doesn't go far

There's plenty for him to do in my yard. During the day cats sleep almost 100% of the time. At night, I keep mine indoors.

[LisaL]

54. Mine used to go far way from home. In fact, he used to follow

me and my family around for miles. It was a long time ago when I was a child. One day, my cat didn't come home. I think he was cat napped by animal control and likely put to sleep. He was impossible to keep inside, however, he always wanted out, maybe because he was born to a feral cat. I couldn't keep him inside.
Now, that I am an adult, my cats are inside only. But then, some people let their cats out-it shouldn't be the reason to shoot the cats.

[slackmaster]

23. Where I live it's customary and legal and accepted by most people

That cats are permitted to go outdoors, at least during the day.

If I didn't let my guard cat outdoors, rodents would destroy my vegetable garden. I'm happy to have the neighbors' cats and even the wild ones come onto my property to hunt and to play with my pets.

I just can't comprehend an 'owner' that'd permit a pet to run loose in any neighborhood.

I can't comprehend someone who doesn't comprehend the nature and value of cats.

[TahitiNut]

30. Well, gee ... then you have absolutely no concern, right?

There's obviously no neighbor who'd want it to be permitted to shoot them. I guess this story doesn't have anything to do with you, so everything's OK. :eyes:

Suggestion: Don't move to Wisconsin. :shrug:

[slackmaster]

48. Shooting a pet cat would get you in deeeeeeeep shit here

You'd face up to a year in jail plus whatever penalty you'd receive for discharging a firearm in the city limits. And if I happened to know who had harmed a pet of mine I'd be inclined to do something that would be inappropriate to post here.

Suggestion: Don't move to Wisconsin. :shrug:

I wasn't planning on doing that ever in my life.

[TahitiNut]

132. Why would anyone bother shooting 'em?

After all, the free-range cat lovers don't mind when they're run over with cars or motorcycles. So, just play cat demolition derby! :dunce:

Maybe the off-road crowd would enjoy a good game of motorcycle cat-polo.

[phylny]

32. No flame from me!

While I think it's disgusting to propose killing a cat that's roaming, I do not like it when cats are let out to roam.

When my kids were little, I had to cover the sandbox, and STILL check it for cat poop. Gross.

I have to pick up after my dog AND keep her on a leash off of my property, which I do. Why are cats still allowed to roam unattended?

[TahitiNut]

36. Yes. Where I've lived the law prohibited more than 4 piles of dog poop

... in the owner's yard! When there were ordinances that applied equally to dogs and cats, they weren't equally enforced by a looong shot. As a person who loves and has cared for many kinds of animal, I'm appalled at the disdain some people show for an animal they claim to love.

[LisaL]

35. Well, I agree. I don't think letting your cat out is a responsible

thing to do. However, some people still do it. It's not illegal. So, shooting these cats is not a solution to cats having irresponsible owner. It's not cats fault he/she is allowed out. Also, some cats are really hard to keep inside, they have to go out... and they will escape any chance they got. So, if your kitty escapes, this nut job thinks he has a right to shoot it?
So, this nut job has no right whatsoever to shoot cats, IMO.

[slackmaster]

52. "Working" cats have to go outside

'Cause that's where the rats and mousies and gophers are at.

[Scout]

110. If your working cat is working outside in your yard....

then nobody is going to shoot it. If your working cat leaves your yard and is bothering other people on their property....

[slackmaster]

134. Nobody has ever complained about my working cat

The neighbors all love him.

[Scout]

150. and if one did? would you keep your cat in your own yard then?

[slackmaster]

152. You can't keep a cat in your own yard

Cats climb fences. Unlike with dogs, it's either indoors or outdoors.

If one of my neighbors complained about my cat I'd probably burn his house to the ground with him and his whole family inside immediately, just to save time.






































JUST KIDDING!

[Scout]

218. Bullshit.

I knew you were kidding about the house burning, but it's still bullshit that you can't keep cats from roaming. YOU are responsible to protect your pet from crazies and accidents.

If your property is big enough for gardening to much of an extent, and it's true that your cat doesn't roam very far (I think that was you who said your cat stays close) then it should be safe. But if you live in the city don't let it roam, some crazy will poison it. If you live in the country don't let it roam, some crazy will shoot it.

I'd feel horrible and want to hurt someone who hurt my dog, but I'm ultimately the one responsible for her safety, especially knowing that there are crazy fucks out there who do hurt and kill animals intentionally.

If it takes the fear of them being shot legally to get people to protect their pets, I might consisider a law like that.

[Democrat Dragon]

222. So, we should keep teenagers inside 24 hours a day too?

because some crazy guy is gonna kiddnap and rape them too, huh?

[Scout]

224. oh please, give me a fucking break. n/t

[slackmaster]

230. Have you ever seen how well a cat can climb?

Short of putting up razor wire around all of my fences or putting up 8-foot cinder block walls (either of which would violate the neighborhood CC&Rs), and cutting down a couple of trees, there is no way I could modify my yard so that a cat could not EASILY get out of it.

Cats can climb right up wooden fences with their claws. They can climb cyclone fencing easily. Most healthy adult cats can jump to the top of a six-foot wall. They are amazing. It's very difficult to confine a cat to one yard. The only practical way to keep a cat 100% from roaming is to keep it indoors at all times.

[Lorien]

166. My sister has a farm and livestock. Her five cats keep rodents

out of their grain. If anyone shot one of her working cats, she would probably fire right back at them.

[Scout]

171. If her working cats

are roaming around on someone else's property, I don't think she'd have a right to complain.

YOu think someone is proposing that it's ok to come on HER property and shoot her cats? Sheesh.....

[Lorien]

195. She loves those animals like family

she depends on them, too. If something you love and depended on was shot by a malicious neighbor, I think you'd feel pretty pissed about it too. Property rights don't mean a right to destroy all living things that roam across it.

[Scout]

200. and I love my dogs like family....

that is why I take care to keep them on leash, or only running free with the property owner's permission. I don't let them wander and run loose on other people's property. They are neutered, and vetted and cared for and exercised properly, without being a bother to the rest of the world.

If they get loose by accident, I'm out looking for them. Yes, I'd be upset if someone shot them, but if they were on their property unauthorized I wouldn't have much of a right to bitch about it. I would feel sad, but it would be my own damn fault now wouldn't it?

If someone came on my property and shot my dog, then I'd damn well bitch about, and have a good reason to do so.

[Lorien]

205. Oy vey

did I say shooting back was a lawful thing to do? no. Is it morally correct. No. Is it the instinctive thing for some people? Yes.Did I say my sister's neighbor would come to her property? No. I said that if they intentionally killed her pet her instinct would be to retaliate. Were cats domesticated so that they could roam free and keep rodent populations down? Yes. Were dogs domesticated so that they could roam free to keep rodent populations down? No. Killing an animal for doing the very thing it was domesticated for is outrageous. My neighbor's cats come on to my property all the time, and thank goodness that they do. My home had a serious rodent problem when I moved in, and I'm not about to poison the rats and have them die in my walls! The neighbor's cat is very welcome here. Until outdoor cats are outlawed, killing your neighbor's cat is unlawful.

I'm tired of this petty flame war. Enough.

[Scout]

216. goody for you

just because you don't care if other people's cats come on your property does not mean other people have to allow it.

My whole point was pretty much if your friend keeps her cats on her own property, she won't have to worry about some nutcase shooting it, will she?

If her cats roam off her property, they are going to be, legally or not, fair game for a nutcase or other person with a gun. Legally or illegally shot, her cat is just as dead. It is HER RESPONSIBILITY to protect the cats from such a fate by keeping them on her own property.

[Democrat Dragon]

227. I agree

I don't own cats...yet, but I'm constantly "exposed" to them cause many times when I visit people, they almost always have a cat, oh and I've also done "cat-sitting". From what I observed from cat behavior, its only natural for a cat to roam outdoors. I can recall watching a documentarey on cat behavior and it was explained that both feral and owned(especially non-neutered cats) cats have "territories" in neighboorhoods, in which they hunt, survey, and look for mates(except for neutered cats).

Personally, the best way to keep a cat safe AND let it go outdoors would be to take the cat for a walk(yes there are cat leashes) or install a cat proof fences:
http://www.purrfectfence.com/prod_fence_cat_standard.asp
http://www.catfencein.com/brochure2.php

cat leashes:
http://www.petandhorsesupply.com/fcollar.html

[stevedeshazer]

167. If you can't keep your cat inside,

You are an irresponsible cat owner.

[Democrat Dragon]

219. Not really

Cats have nifty ways of going out without the owner knowing or able to respond in time such as going through "sectioned" glass windows, sctatching mesh, running out when someone opens the door, and sqeezing through slightly opened windows.

[stevedeshazer]

74. I'm with you

Cats in my neighborhood routinely stalk wild birds in MY yard.

I'd never resort to shooting them, but I've squirted them with water to try to discourage them from hanging out at my bird feeding station.

Responsible cat owners keep their cats INSIDE. Like we do.

No flames here, man.

[slackmaster]

86. You don't have a bird-feeding station

You have a cat-feeding station.

Why are you mucking with the balance of nature by feeding wild birds, and deliberately putting them into a situation where cats can catch them? I think that's terribly irresponsible of you.

[XemaSab]

129. You don't have a garden

You have a rat-feeding station.

Why are you mucking with the balance of nature by feeding wild rats, and deliberately putting them into a situation where cats can catch them? I think that's terribly irresponsible of you.

[slackmaster]

133. Excellent reply!

I guess we should just shut down all agriculture and stop eating. We're just mucking with the balance of nature by living, eh?

[stevedeshazer]

170. I'm not feeding rats

Keep your free-roaming cats out of my yard.

On edit: removed my true feelings for people with glass houses

[stevedeshazer]

172. I have to say, this is a very disturbing response

from someone who claims to be a birder in their profile.

So you defend free-roaming cats as a self-proclaimed birder?

Shame on you.

[XemaSab]

176. That was a sarcastic response.

I can't stand free roaming cats. Shooting them might be a bit harsh, but rounding them up and taking them to the pound is completely fair, IMHO.

[stevedeshazer]

179. Thanks, I've turned on my sarcasm gene again.

:)

[stevedeshazer]

168. Why are you "mucking" with the balance of nature

Where I live,

CATS AREN'T NATIVE. WILD BIRDS ARE.

[slackmaster]

259. Not strictly true

I get several species of exotic birds in my yard including parrots. The wild birds that visit are not in their native habitat when they're in or near my yard.

I'n not a native species. I'm a member of a clever one that has trashed and customized the environment for its own uses, which include keeping cats as pets and for rodent control.

[gulfcoastliberal]

87. I'm with TahitiNut

His argument has not yet been refuted. Logic over emotion.

[livinginphotographs]

93. It has nothing to do with emotion

To suggest that this guy shouldn't be given permission to take potshots at any cat that wonders on his property. In fact, it's pretty illogical to suggest that this is a responsible thing to allow.

Feral cats may be a problem in his neighborhood, but there are probably less drastic ways of handling it.

[gulfcoastliberal]

98. Science sez: cats kill 1 billion wild animals/year

Sure, some of that toll are pests but it is a fact that outdoor cats kill many, many wild animals. How this differs from killing off say, overpopulated deer, I don't see.

Observation of free-ranging domestic cats shows that some individuals can kill over 1000 wild animals per year <7>, although smaller numbers are more typical. Some of the data on kills suggest that free-ranging cats living in small towns kill an average of 14 wild animals each per year. Rural cats kill many more wild animals than do urban, or suburban cats <8>. Several studies found that up to 90% of free-ranging rural cats' diet was wild animals, and less than 10% of rural cats killed no wild animals <9>. Recent research <10> suggests that rural free-ranging domestic cats in Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year. The most reasonable estimates indicate that 39 million birds are killed in the state each year. Nationwide, rural cats probably kill over a billion small mammals and hundreds of millions of birds each year. Urban and suburban cats add to this toll. Some of these kills are house mice, rats and other species considered pests, but many are native songbirds and mammals
whose populations are already stressed by other factors, such as habitat destruction and pesticide pollution.

Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats <11>. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction <12, 13>.

Not only do cats prey on many small mammals and birds, but they can outnumber and compete with native predators. Domestic cats eat many of the same animals that native predators do. When present in large numbers, cats can reduce the availability of prey for native predators, such as hawks <14> and weasels <15>.

Free-ranging domestic cats may also transmit new diseases to wild animals. Domestic cats have spread feline leukemia virus to mountain lions <16> and may have recently infected the endangered Florida Panther with feline panleukopenia (feline distemper) and an immune deficiency disease <17>. These diseases may pose a serious threat to this rare species. Some free-ranging domestic cats also carry several diseases that are easily transmitted to humans, including rabies and toxoplasmosis <18>.



http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/speaker3.html

[livinginphotographs]

99. So the solution is for people to spay and neuter their cats

And keep them inside.

Not to allow some gun-toting maniac to go firing away at every critter and varmint that happens to stumble upon his lawn.

[gulfcoastliberal]

101. De-clawing should also be mandatory, like the shots...

That way, the cats won't be let out - and if they are, they won't do as much damage.

[livinginphotographs]

103. De-clawing is a pretty invasive procedure.

And is pretty painful for the cat. Plus it assumes that people are smart enough/responsible enough to not let them out after declawing them. That also leaves them at the mercy of dogs or any other animal that would prey on cats.

It's like saying bears would be less dangerous if we were to round as many of them up as possible and cut their legs. So, sorry, I vote NO on declawing.

[slackmaster]

105. Another guaranteed flame-starter

De-clawing is cruel and leaves the cat defenseless.

[gulfcoastliberal]

147. "defenseless" if they are left outside

It can be argued that allowing cats to roam outdoors unsupervised is inhumane and cruel. I'm not saying that it is, but rather that it is harmful to the biosphere as a whole to allow domestic cats outside to kill at will.

[slackmaster]

153. The harm cats do to the biosphere is tiny compared to what humans do

We build golf courses and cities and freeways and airports.

Really, look at the big picture. Humans are the real problem.

[Lindacooks]

114. Declawing is inhumane.

And usually causes a host of behavioral problems in the cat. Declawing, by the way, is like having all of your fingers cut off. Would you like that done to you???

[gulfcoastliberal]

145. Why do indoor cats need claws?

They don't. The finger analogy is baseless- the claws are not necessary for the survival of a domestic cat. I guess you think spaying and neutering are also off-limits, since you wouldn't want YOUR genitalia removed, right?

[slackmaster]

156. Why do you need the last segments of all your fingers and toes?

You could get by without them.

Cut them off now, for the good of the Biosphere.

[gulfcoastliberal]

189. Right after you cut off your testicles

For the good of the planet and all. :rolleyes:

I'm sick of this bogus-ass argument that cats need claws like humans need fingers. I've seen cats eat, and they don't use their claws. If de-clawing is inhumane, so is spaying & neutering.

[slackmaster]

207. De-clawing is exactly analogous to removing the last section of finger

Or toe.

It's a fact.

[gulfcoastliberal]

215. Its irrelevant to apply common procedure such as declawing and neutering

to humans. Is the claw functionality as necessary as their genitals to their survival in a pampered and cared for environment? Neutering the cat is analagous to castrating yourself. Do the dick engines deserve to stay even if you don't want the cat to spray, fight, reproduce, etc just because the thought of doing to yourself is unpleasant? Pet cats don't need claws. Humans however, certaily do need their fingertips. Just as you need your balls.

[slackmaster]

229. My pet cats use their claws for self-defense against other animals

I would not even consider depriving them of that capacity.

[Lindacooks]

280. You really are undeducated on this topic, aren't you?

Eating is not the only part of survival. Geez, take a class in logic, will ya?

:rolleyes:

Declawing IS amputation because the last joint of the cat's toes is removed in order to declaw. Declawed cats feel immense pain after the operation, and since they have to walk on their feet, this disgusting procedure is pure torture for weeks. Take a look at the drawing on this page:

http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/declaw.html

A 1994 study by the Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences at Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine found that of 163 cats who were declawed, 50% had one or more complications immediately after surgery, such as pain, hemorrhage, lameness, swelling, and non-weight bearing. Other complications include infection, regrowth, bone protrusion into the pad of the paw and prolonged lameness and palmagrade stance (abnormal standing posture).

70% OF CATS TURNED INTO POUNDS AND SHELTERS FOR BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE DECLAWED CATS.

Claws are used in cleaning, climbing, playing, and if a declawed cat EVER gets outside (we designed our house specifically to have two doors at each entry so our cats couldn't get outside, but it's still possible) the cat is DEAD.

[LisaL]

182. Why do you need your fingernails? Maybe somebody should

yank them all off.

[Lindacooks]

279. Such faulty logic!!!

And every single one of my cats has ALWAYS been spayed or neutered. Sheesh, did you ever learn reasoning skills?

The finger analogy is NOT baseless. Your fingers aren't necessary to your survival either!! That isn't the point. The point is cruelty. The point is what is best for the animal. People have their cats declawed because they love their inanimate objects (i.e. furniture) more than a living, breathing being.

Claws are a basic part of a cat's being. They use them in so many different ways, from picking up a small object to climbing and jumping, and WALKING. We have one declawed cat (she was declawed before we got her) and she has serious emotional problems, including breaking litterbox training. We provide towels for her to use for a bathroom, and she uses those regularly. See, when she was recovering from the amputation surgery, it hurt to use the litterbox.

"Your cat's body is perfectly designed to give it the grace, agility and beauty that is unique to felines. Its claws are an important part of this design. Amputating the important part of their anatomy that contains the claws drastically alters the conformation of their feet."

http://www.declawing.com/

http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/declaw.html

[TahitiNut]

124. Claws don't kill birds ...

... cats kill birds. (Only in self-defense, of course.) :silly: :dunce:

[Coastie for Truth]

313. I am sick of the "Birds..." adoration

Go over to "Peak Oil..." forum and most other threads about Wind Turbine Generators.

This is not about cats or cats and birds. This is about another silly butt hobby for NRA gun nuts. (I am an NRA member, a "responsible" gun owner, and I don't buy NRA member Smith's argument - and I am familiar with the NRA way of doing things).

"Tear down the Adirondack Wind Turbines because they interfere with {rabies carrying) bats -- according to coal mining company lawyers. So, weigh the asthma to humans caused by coal plants (check out http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/Rachel_Carson/dead20.htm, Donora is in the heart of that part of the Monongahela Valley known as the "Coal Valley" - my Dad was born in Donora PA).

"Tear down the Altamont Wind Turbines because they interfere with some other migratory birds. --- Who cares about the smog and pollution caused by fossil fuel generators in the Bay Area.

-I am an alternative energy - renewable energy - green energy engineer -----> I make my living on alternative energy - renewable energy - green energy ---> so, I at least have a bare minimum knowledge of environmentalism and environmenta engineering. And I have cats.

And I do not buy the pseudo science, junk science, ersatz arguments that "Birds are per se inherently good -- and Cats Are Per Se Inherently Evil" or that "Cats caused the Black Plague"

As to the pseudo science, junk science, ersatz arguments that "Birds are per se inherently good -- and Cats Are Per Se Inherently Evil", just remember that when Europe was scared crapless by the Black Plague, and the speed of spread of the Black Plague in the 14th century had many people (religion being the way of life) believing that the Devil was in some way responsible for the disease. the Pope declared that cats, (who were known to roam freely) were in league with the devil. This declaration was aided by the belief that cats often acted as Witches' familiars. Because of the declaration, a great many cats were killed in the very religious Europe. The sudden decrease in cats led to a massive increase in rats and the plague-carrying fleas that fed upon them. The papal decree was as silly as "Intelligent Design" and "Creation Science"--- and the "KIll The Cats to Save the Birds" pseudo science, junk science, ersatz arguments.-

Kill the cats to save wild birds! Kiss my butt.

The only really core argument presented by NRA Gun Nut Smith is so that the NRA guys can have another reason to adore guns and brandish guns. Every other argument is a phony make weight.

[LisaL]

181. Declawing is outlawed in many countries because it's a cruel

and un-necessary procedure.

[Scout]

115. that's always been a solution

and obviously not very many people are doing it, else we'd not have this problem, eh?

[livinginphotographs]

120. So the obvious next step is to just start blazing away, right?

I'd rather have feral cats in my yard than some armed wacko living next door on a one-man quest to rid the world of cats.

[Scout]

148. do you always use such hyperbole when trying to have a discussion?

I'd hardly say the person described in the article is an armed wacko on a one-man quest to rid the world of cats. Seems to me he just doesn't like other peoples' cats roaming on his property ... or did you not actually read the article?

[livinginphotographs]

192. I use hyperbole out of frustration from people thinking that this guy

is being reasonable.

And hyperbole is better than one-sentence posts that do absolutely nothing defend this man's actions.

[Scout]

198. I know you are but what am I?

And hyperbole is better than one-sentence posts that do absolutely nothing defend this man's actions.

I'll try to be more verbose from now on, just to please you, oh arbiter of proper posting.

He's being perfectly reasonable in proposing people get together to discuss a problem, and propose a law be changed. He's not talking about running around willy nilly shooting every cat he sees, out of other people's barns, and gardens and yards.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a pogo stick, some people around here need to get a grip on themselves.

There, is that better? I even tried hyperbole!

[livinginphotographs]

202. And with that...

the conversation ends.

*insert closing personal attack of your choice here*

[Pithlet]

238. Yes. He doesn't like cats.

And his proposal is BEING ALLOWED TO SHOOT THEM. Is that the only option available in dealing with the problem? There aren't other options? If the guy was just bitching about roaming cats, that would be one thing. It's the shooting aspect that upsets people. Gee, I can't understand why that would bother some, can you? </sarcasm>

[BikeWriter]

265. The best option is keep your cat inside.

[Pithlet]

283. I agree

But this is about letting a hunter shoot other people's pets. You and I may not agree that letting them out is the best thing to do, but how is blazing away at them with guns the only answer, or even the best one?

[BikeWriter]

284. If my garage didn't smell like cat piss I'd be more tolerant of them...

If they hadn't killed two birds in my yard recently I wouldn't be so angry. Protecting them is the least of my priorities now. I'm going to spend money I can ill afford to buy a Havahart trap to protect my property from other's pets.

[Pithlet]

287. Okay. At least you admit that is what is behind your viewpoint.

You hate cats, therefore protecting them against overzealous hunters isn't a priority for you. But, surely you can understand why most people who don't have a flaming hatred of cats might think that allowing gun nuts to go after them is a bit extreme. After all, there are a lot of things that people hate.

I don't much care for certain breeds of dogs. They bark and disrupt the neighborhood, get loose and terrorize the neighborhood. But I wouldn't go so far as letting hunters go at them. This irrational hatred and willingness to stand by and let hunters get their jollies doesn't make sense to me.

[BikeWriter]

288. Where did I say that? My biggest dislike is their owners.

My gripe about them is quite rational! The cats shit and piss in my garage, flower beds, and vegetable garden. They kill the wild birds in my yard. You call my dislike irrational?

[Pithlet]

291. I never said your dislike was irrational!

It is obvious you don't like cats. That's fine. I agree that there are many irresponsible owners, and that they're the problem.

What is IRRATIONAL is the desire to see them shot, which is what some of the people in this thread have said. However, I do think it's a bit weird to not care that something wrong is being proposed because you happen to dislike the creatures. I think that anyone who claims to like animals would be at the very least against this, if not outraged. If they'll propose shooting cats, which you DON'T like, then you can be sure that they will also propose hunting season on an animal that you DO.

To me, this is not about like or dislike of cats. It's about hunters wanting to expand their kill to animals outside of traditional wild game. I would think that animal and nature lovers, catlovers and haters among them, would unite against this. But, what do I know?

[BikeWriter]

294. What I term as irrational is anyone supporting their roaming...

They have no place there. They're destructive and intrude on my property rights. I cannot understand how an owner can say they're concerned for them and still allow them to take their chances with dogs, cars, and those people who sincerely do hate them!

[Pithlet]

295. Two different issues.

This thread is about a hunter who wants to blast away with impunity. It sounds to me like you and others are supporting him when you're ranting about roaming kitties, because of the subject of this thread. If this were a thread merely about irresponsible pet ownership, then I'd be with you all the way. I think a blood thirsty "hunter" thread who wants to expand his kill beyond sportsmanship to a domesticated animal is the wrong thread to rant in. And when people point out that this is wrong, and your response is "But they're awful, blah blah blah..." it REALLY sounds like your defending the lunatic.

Put your cat hatred aside; are you really okay with expanding hutning to any domesticated creature?

[BikeWriter]

324. I am not okay with anyone imposing their domestic critters on me...

...or anyone else. I have owned large flocks of exotic and domestic birds. I have owned entire herds of domestic livestock, including horses and mules. I have owned large packs and kennels of dogs. My animals have always been handled responsibly without intrusion on other's property and their rights.
If I know the owner of an animal intruding on my property I will take it up with them first before handling the situation myself. Regretably, one cannot always do that.

[XemaSab]

131. There's also

the transmission of diseases to sea otters.

[Coastie for Truth]

317. See my append at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3233160#3242559

I am an alternative-renewable-green energy (and environmental) engineer, and a responsibile, gun owning NRA member -- and you haven't convinced me.

And Smith is an NRA shill.

[shance]

203. WHO'S FAULT IS IT THAT THEY ARE NOT CONTROLLED??

Hmm....lets see.

Oh (raises hand) I know!!!

Its the abusive, neglectful, selfish, stupid, carless, uncaring, throw away humans, that dispose of animals when they arent NEEDED, CUTE, or CUDDLY anymore!!!!

Maybe we should open up season on the OWNERS that abandon, neglect and abuse their pets instead.

[WillowTree]

9. I, in turn...

....want open season on free-roaming Wisconsin hunters.

[WillowTree]

10. Self delete.

Dup

[Sinistrous]

12. These are not wandering domestic tabbies. Feral cats are a real problem.

Article here.

<snip>

Ron Jurek, a wildlife biologist for the California Department of Fish and Game, has kept a close eye on the impact feral and free-roaming domestic cats have on native species, like the California least tern, a federal endangered bird that nests along the coast.

"Cats do kill wildlife to a significant degree, which is not a popular notion with a lot of people," he said.

In urban areas, he said, there are hundreds of cats per square mile (1.6 square kilometers)—more cats than nature can support.

Exact numbers are unknown, but some experts estimate that each year domestic and feral cats kill hundreds of millions of birds, and more than a billion small mammals, such as rabbits, squirrels, and chipmunks.

<more>

These animals are a result of thoughtless owners who abandon their animals or let them run loose without their being spayed. There are many organizations dedicated to the humane control of feral cats through capture and neutering. Do a Google on "feral cats".

However, controlling the millions of feral cats now at large will probably require methods that will offend certain delicate sensibilities.

[LisaL]

20. The method is call TNR-trap neuter release. Not hunt them down

and kill them. Furthermore, some people let their cats out-they have indoor-outdoor cats. The cats this guy wants to hunt might not be feral at all.

[Sinistrous]

31. Two points:

1. The specifics of TNR were clear on the sites I checked. TNR is an excellent program that should be encouraged and supported. However, the practice only slows the growth of the feral cat population but does little to control the millions of cats that are already running wild.

2. Wandering domestic cats are the root cause of feral cats. Where do you think the feral cats came from?

[LisaL]

38. Yes, they come from irresponsible people who don't spay/neuter

their cats. And your point is?

[Sinistrous]

46. The point is that, contrary to your assertion,

...some people let their cats out-they have indoor-outdoor cats. The cats this guy wants to hunt might not be feral at all.
roaming domestic cats are not harmless bystanders. They become, or contribute to, the problem.

[LisaL]

51. So, lets kill them? It's somebody's pet. Some people

feel cats are much happier if they are allowed to go out. If you think it shouldn't be done, then maybe the laws should be passed making that illegal. But while it's legal to let your cat out, this guy should have no right whatsoever to shoot at someone's pet.

[Sinistrous]

64. When that "pet" becomes a "pest"

people do have the right to control them. Maybe a bullet is not the answer, but pest control is sometimes necessary. Remember the movie "Willard"? That guy had rats as "pets". "Pet" status does not innoculate an animal from becoming destructive and or dangerous.

[slackmaster]

91. I feel the same way about homeless people

The San Diego PD's "tag and release" program isn't solving the problem.

[Sinistrous]

175. That is a truly "SubGenius" response.

LOL

(I just noticed your screen name.)

[slackmaster]

211. Praise "Bob" and pass the 'frop

:loveya:

[Scout]

116. then they need to stay off his property

if they are someone's pet.

[BikeWriter]

296. Right on!

;-)

[Bridget Burke]

39. The "hunter" specifically mentioned "free-roaming domestic cats"

NOT feral ones.

I keep my cats inside & heartily recommend it. They'll have happy, longer lives. Good for the birds, too.

But just deciding to shoot cats is cruel & stupid. In fact, how do we know he hasn't already begun? Wonder if any of the neighbors have lost a cat recently?

[Sinistrous]

56. I am sure the birds and fish eaten by roaming domestic cats

are just giddy with gratitude to know that the feline that shredded them had a house to return to instead of having to sleep behind a log or somewhere else.

[Gold Metal Flake]

88. STOP MAKING SENSE GODDAMMIT!!!

I'm trying to make myself feel good by hating hunters without looking objectively at a real human-caused problem! Every feral cat is actually a little child's pet, that has just wandered off for only a few minutes and could never be responsible for the death of even a single endangered bird or reptile. Feral cats are NOT destroying wildlife in Hawaii, for instance. You bad Sinistrous!

[BikeWriter]

253. I found another bird's feathers in my yard today. A BlueJay this time...

I'm buying a Havahart trap.

[Coastie for Truth]

318. See my append at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3233160&mesg_id=3242559


I don't buy the "Birds" argument-- when Consolidation Coal's predecessor is the one asserting it in Pennsylvania --- to stop wind turbines and sell more coal -- and when Smith is an NRA shill.

(BTW - I got my engineering degrees from two colleges in Pennsylvania, and worked in "renewable and green energy" at Bruceton and Churchill - and worked with Assemblyman and Gubernatorial candidate Itkin before moving to CA. Grew up in the Mon Valley -- I know Consolidation Coal and Clairton Works)

[LisaL]

17. Hunters will vote on it? What about the rest of the population?

So, the hunters are allowed to vote on whoever the hell they want to hunt? Aren't' there animal cruelty laws? As for this guy, he is a disgusting creep.

[Sinistrous]

28. I doubt the Wisconsin Conservation Congress can enact laws.

My guess is that they would vote on a resolution that would be presented to the legislature or the game commission.

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congress/au/index.htm">Info on the Wisconsin Conservation Congress Here.

[LisaL]

45. One can only hope. Cause who knows, maybe those crazies

would vote on shooting free roaming children next.

[Sinistrous]

60. The Conservation Congress is in fact, an advisory body.

You might want to refer to the link I provided.

Then see post #14 regarding the "Slippery Slope" argument.

[Misunderestimator]

19. My prediction: This thread will reach 200 flaming posts by the end of the

day. As for my two cents... he's an ass, reminds me of a creepy
neighbor growing up who poisoned our dog.

[Cuban_Liberal]

24. Adlai E. Stevenson said...

"Famous Cat Bill Veto STATE OF ILLINOIS EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT SPRINGFIELD, April 23, 1949.

To the Honorable, the Members of the Senate of the Sixth-sixth General Assembly:

I herewith return, without my approval, Senate Bill No. 93, entitled, "An Act to Provide Protection to Insectivorous Birds by Restraining Cats." This is the so-called "Cat Bill." I veto and withhold my approval from this Bill for the following reasons:

It would impose fines on owners or keepers who permitted their cats to run at large off their premises. It would permit any person to capture or call upon the police to pick up and imprison, cats at large. It would permit the use of traps. The bill would have statewide application— on farms, in villages, and in metropolitan centers.

This legislation has been introduced in the past several sessions of the Legislature, and it has, over the years, been the source of much comment— not all of which has been in a serious vein. It may be that the General Assembly has now seen fit to refer it to one who can view it with a fresh outlook. Whatever the reasons for passage at this session, I cannot believe there is a widespread public demand for this law or that it could, as a practical matter, be enforced.

Furthermore, I cannot agree that it should be the declared public policy of Illinois that a cat visiting a neighbor's yard or crossing the highway is a public nuisance. It is in the nature of cats to do a certain amount of unescorted roaming. Many live with their owners in apartments or other restricted premises, and I doubt if we want to make their every brief foray an opportunity for a small game hunt by zealous citizens— with traps or otherwise. I am afraid this Bill could only create discord, recrimination and enmity. Also consider the owner's dilemma: To escort a cat abroad on a leash is against the nature of the cat, and to permit it to venture forth for exercise unattended into a night of new dangers is against the nature of the owner. Moreover, cats perform useful service, particularly in rural areas, in combating rodents— work they necessarily perform alone and without regard for property lines.

We are all interested in protecting certain varieties of birds. That cats destroy some birds, I well know, but I believe this legislation would further but little the worthy cause to with its proponents give such unselfish effort. The problem of cat versus bird is as old as time. If we attempt to resolve it by legislation why knows but what we may be called upon to take sides as well in the age old problems of dog versus cat, bird versus bird, or even bird versus worm. In my opinion, the State of Illinois and its local governing bodies already have enough to do without trying to control feline delinquency.

For these reasons, and not because I love birds the less or cats the more, I veto and withhold my approval from Senate Bill No. 93.

Respectfully, ADLAI E. STEVENSON, Governor

Veto Messages of Adlai E. Stevenson, Governor of Illinois, on Senate and House Bills Passed by the 66th General Assembly of Illinois. Springfield: State of Illinois, 1949."

[PROGRESSIVE1]

214. .

[BikeWriter]

276. That is but one more example of irresponsibility. Cats do not belong...

...in the wild in the United States!

[postulater]

25. We trap em.

We have feral cats in the neighborhood. They breed like ... um, like rabbits?? Anyhow there's more and more all the time.

And they really are a serious problem with the songbird population. So which do we like more? The nasty feral cats or the pretty little songbirds? The songbirds win.

We trap em and take them to the Domestic Animal Control shelter. They kill em there if no one wants them or if they can't be socialized.

So we get to spend a couple hundred dollars of taxpayer money to save the cost of the bullet. And no kids have to watch Kitty get blasted.

[livinginphotographs]

47. Hey, it'd probably be cheaper to just shoot convicts on the spot.

That doesn't necessarily mean we should.

Another thing is we shouldn't be determining which life if more valuable by some subjective standard of how "pretty" we consider the creature to be.

[postulater]

228. Yeah you're right.

That's why I have the other guys kill them.

[Logansquare]

33. What about "free roaming" dogs?

We had a lot of problems with loose dogs in the country.

[Pithlet]

241. Because dogs are too entrenched in our culture.

Police dogs. Old yellar. A boy and his dog. While domestic cats are a popular pet, they aren't really held in quite the esteem culturally.

Besides, how many times have you heard someone go on and on about how much they hate dogs the way some who hate cats do? Because some people here, and the guy this post is about, don't hold cats to quite the same level as other animals in our culture, they see nothing wrong with open season. How THEY feel about cats is more important than any facts. That, and apparently the ONLY way to deal with the problem is KILL KILL KILL! With a gun! Yeeehaw!

[Viking12]

262. In many states it is legal to shoot free roaming dogs n/t

[Pepperbelly]

269. dog catchers ...

where I live, there are all kinds of them.

[Gemini Cat]

37. How stupid.

He probably fears cats, so he ends up hating cats for his problems. He knows however, he can't go around admitting his fear or his bullshit hatred so he comes up with this crap.

[Zorra]

40. Domestic cats are cuddly and cute, but

they are also supercats, because often they are very well fed and taken care of from birth. Cats are nature's perfect killing machine, and often kill ruthlessly and randomly without eating their kill.

I like cats, but could never justify have one for a pet. And I do not support hunters randomly killing somebody's pet.

But, IMO, it is in the best interest of the environment, particularly the wildlife that is so often the prey for domestic cats, that people reconsider having a cat as a pet.

Some estimated statistics:

The Effects of Cat Predation on Wildlife
from the USFWS Migratory Bird Mangement Office

Americans keep an estimated 60 million cats as pets. Let's say each cat kills only one bird a year. That would mean that cats kill over 60 million birds (minimum) each year - more wildlife than any oil spill.

Scientific studies actually show that each year, cats kill hundreds of millions of migratory songbirds. In 1990, researchers estimated that "outdoor" house cats and feral cats were responsible for killing nearly 78 million small mammals and birds annually in the United Kingdom.

University of Wisconsin ornithologist, Dr. Santley Temple estimates that 20-150 million songbirds are killed each year by rural cats in Wisconsin alone.

Feline predation is not "natural." Cats were domesticated by the ancient Egyptians and taken throughout the world by the Romans. Cats were brought to North America in the 1800's to control rats. The "tabby" that sits curled up on your couch is not a natural predator and has never been in the natural food chain in the Western Hemisphere.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/cats.htm

[LisaL]

43. LOL. Are you a member of PETA or something?

Not having cats as pets? Just keep them inside where they not going to have access to wild birds.
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Zorra]

57. Don't you think that might be a very cruel thing to do to a cat?

Like keeping it in prison?

And no, I am not a member of PETA.

But my personal and traditional belief system is based in having respect for life.

[Bridget Burke]

68. Indoor cats don't think they're "in prison"....

I've got two & they're healthy & lively animals. (I'd suggest more than one cat--they do enjoy company.) And they've been "fixed"--they don't obsess over their "manhood" either. Don't anthropomorphize.

I'd encourage everyone to keep their cats inside--better for the cats & better for nature. But the "hunter" is nuts.

What's your "traditional belief system"?

[Zorra]

97. If you left the door to your house open, and gave your cats a choice

to go out into the sunlight and fresh air if they wished to, would they go outside?

I will tell you that my traditional belief system is not rooted in this Judaeo-Christian premise:

Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Part of my traditional belief system involves sharing space with all living things, not dominating or conquering them.

As for anthropomorphizing, I do not pretend to know what goes on in the consciousness of a cat.

It does, however, appear to me that cats have intelligence and feelings, and should be accorded respect as living creatures and given choices as to how they wish to live.

I do not believe in zoos or in animal testing. As I do not know what comprises the consciousnesses of other creatures, I can only assume that other creatures do not like being locked up, tortured, or wantonly killed.

And yes, the "hunter", (a better word would be "killer"), is crazy.

[Bridget Burke]

144. Cats are domesticated animals.

Their ancestors made the "deal" with humanity thousands of years ago. They would keep the mice out of the grain & humans would let them live. The relationship grew from there. I don't have mice, but the cats earn their "keep" as companion animals.

My cats have peeked outside when the door is open, but have not seriously tried to escape. If they did, they would probably be flattened by a car rather quickly. My street is not exceptionally busy, but I've helped clean up the results when more street-wise animals made mistakes. Should I dump them off in the country to become feral? They would not survive there, either.

WHICH traditional belief system do you follow? "Traditional" means you aren't the only one.

[Zorra]

208. No, please don't dump your cats off in the country, and I believe that you

are probably right that your cats would not survive outside of the environment that they have been conditioned to live in.

I prefer not to discuss certain things in a public political forum, particularly when a lack of cultural background might lead to misunderstanding.

[Silverhair]

242. Then the cats unilaterally renegotiated the deal while humans were asleep.

Now the deal is that humans will provide cats with food on demand, said food subject to feline approval.

Humans will provide suitable claw exercise equipment in the form of sofa, chairs, etc.

Humans will stop other activities to stroke the cat of the house whenever said cat desires stoking. A lap shall be provided by the human as a comfortable platform for the cat.

Humans shall open and close doors for cats upon first meow.

Humans shall enjoy doing said items and shall love their cats.

Cats shall not be required to return the affection, but if they do Humans shall be overjoyed about it.

BTW - I have a beautiful, and bossy, calico.

[LisaL]

184. Nope, they wouldn't. They are terrified of the outside.

I got persian cats.

[LisaL]

71. No, I don't think it's a cruel thing to do to a cat.

LOL.
You should reconsider your membership in PETA though-cause you sound just like one of them.

[Zorra]

108. Why don't you think that locking a cat indoors is cruel? Do

you believe that animals have no intelligence and/or feelings, and only exist to serve human desires? Do you maybe believe that cats enjoy being kept indoors? Would your cat go outside if you left the door to your apartment or house open?

What is the real reason that you keep a cat for a pet?

It seems to me that people most often keep cats for pets because they feel that they receive love from their cats.

You can continue to attempt to use sarcasm and mock me by suggesting that I join PETA if you wish, but are you aware that you are using a propaganda technique, known as "indirect name calling", which is often used by people that cannot justify their position and therefore use this propaganda device to skirt productive discussion of an issue? PETA basically has a negative reputation at DU - so it appears that you are unjustifiably attempting to give others a negative view of my opinions by associating me with this, arguably, destructive group.

I have no desire to join PETA.

[LisaL]

185. Why do people have pets? Go figure it out.

It seem pointless to discuss whether one should have cats as pets. Even PETA accepts that cats can be kept as pets.

[livinginphotographs]

76. My two cats are inside-only

And they don't think it's all that cruel. In fact, I doubt they give it much thought, since they seem more afraid of outside than anything.

[Lindacooks]

117. Yeah, right.

My strictly indoor cats LONG to get outside where they can be abused, hurt, or killed by cruel people, tortured by dogs, run over by cars, and hurt by wild animals. </sarcasm>

Indoor cats live an average of 18 years. Outdoor cats live an average of THREE years. And as I look at my cats, one sitting on my hand as I type, one snuggled into her plush cozy, the other sleeping upside down on the bed, they sure do look imprisoned. NOT.

[Zorra]

121. If you left the door to your house or apartment open, would your cats

go outside?

[LisaL]

190. If you left the door to your apartment open, would your toddler

go outside? Does it mean your toddler should be allowed to roam around unsupervised?

[Zorra]

217. Of course my toddlers would go outside, and it never occurred to me to

let my toddlers roam around unsupervised.

And when my children were old enough to play outside unsupervised, I allowed and encouraged them to do so.

I can't tell you that it is wrong to keep a creature indoors for an entire lifetime, or chained in the backyard, or kept in a cage. I am definitely not qualified in any way to do something like that. Maybe cats and dogs and other creatures enjoy those things for what little I know.

I only know what I believe is right for me, and have no desire to tell you what you should believe.

This is only a place for discussion of our different ideas and opinions, right?

[LisaL]

221. Just like it never occurred to you to let your toddlers run around

unsupervised, it never occurred to me to let my cats run around unsupervised. They are much safer inside then they ever would be outside. And since they haven't been outside, they are not missing it.
What they don't know is not going to hurt them. In fact, they are terrified of the outside and never try to get out.

[Lindacooks]

278. What's right for you isn't right for every thing in your life.

As I've said before, outdoor cats live an average of 3 years, and indoor cats live an average of 18 years:

http://www.hswv.com/tips/outdoor-cat.html

Proponents of the outdoor lifestyle believe it is better for Kitty to enjoy life to the fullest, even if her life is shortened by the consequences of outdoor living. An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat, and stress leads to a myriad of physical and psychological disorders. Outdoor cats on the street, or even in the country, are faced every day with territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars, environmental noises which cause panic, and situations which generate pure fear. Indoor cats generally live longer and healthier lives than outdoor cats - a fact that cannot be disputed.

http://maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm

"Free-ranging cats in the United States have an average lifespan in the general population of only 3 to 5 years; indoor cats have an average lifespan of 12 years and frequently live longer than 20 years. Car accidents are the biggest killers of free-ranging cats"

- Karen L. Overall, M.A., V.M.D., Ph.D., Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behavior; Department of Clinical Studies School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

[Lindacooks]

277. Actually, we do have one cat that we found huddled under

our dryer vent during the coldest time of the year (in Minnesota, that's cold). We took him in and he's now a wonderfully healthy and happy cat. AND HE WON'T EVEN GO OUTSIDE ON OUR SCREENED IN PORCH. He's been out, he's done that, and he knows it almost killed him. So no, he wouldn't.

Anyway, that's faulty logic. Just because a being will do something doesn't mean it's good for them or even right for them. And for creatures that don't understand cars and cruel human beings it's up to creatures that DO understand those hazards to protect them.

[livinginphotographs]

49. That doesn't mean people shouldn't have cats.

That means their owners should be more responsible with them.

That's like saying people shouldn't have children, since a child that is improperly cared for can grow up to be a serial killer.

[slackmaster]

55. I think the houses and streets in my neighborhood

Have had a far greater impact on the natural environment than pet cats have.

[Zorra]

67. I agree, but how does that justify anything?

Human habitations could be much less destructive to, and more harmonious with, the natural world, but it is not economically beneficial, in the short term, at this time.

Euro-American industrial civilization has grown upon the thoughtless mistake of not considering the environment as important. Now we are perpetuating this mistake instead of making efforts to correct it because of economic concerns.

[slackmaster]

83. Yeah, we're really a badass species aren't we?

Maybe an epidemic will wipe us all out some day.

That would be GREAT, mmmmmkay?

:nuke:

[Zorra]

113. Wouldn't it just be more logical to use intelligence and common

sense to protect and improve our natural environment?

[flvegan]

59. I love when statistics come from a branch of the govt. or

other entity with a bias towards one outcome of the study. "Let's say each cat kills only one bird a year..." is preposterous. Not all 60 million cats go outside.

You know what else kills migratory songbirds, people. We rampantly wipe out habitat without regard for the species therein. Jesus, we don't even attempt to relocate anymore, we just pay the extra for Take permits and bulldoze/burn/trash/destroy whatever it is we're so hell bent on saving. People, by the way, aren't native here, either.

Also, of all the posts about "domestic animals" about, nobody has made mention that the cat is the only true carnivore, and therefore, the only true hunter (by instinct). To compare a cat to a dog (or goat, or horse, etc) is devoid of reason. They are the perfect hunter. They should be responsibly maintained in the home or by colony caretakers, not killed.

[Zorra]

79. Can you provide statistics from a source that you are comfortable with

that show that cats do not kill wildlife in significant numbers?

I have lived in a rural environment most of my life, and have had cats in the past in order to keep the rodent population down because rodents are the primary prey of rattlesnakes, and there were a lot of rattlesnakes in the area where I lived, so I was hoping the cats would reduce the rodent population and hence make my property less appealing to rattlesnakes.

Unfortunately, the cats often brought home songbirds and baby rabbits that they had killed, in relatively substantial numbers.

Based on my personal observations of free roaming cats, I would say that the number of cats that are allowed to roam freely kill far more than one bird a year. In the area where I live now, I have asked my neighbors that own cats if their cats kill a significant number of the small lizards that live in this area. Every one that I asked said yes.

IMO, two wrongs do not make a right. So regardless of the fact that humans are environmentally destructive, it is better to take steps to correct the problems rather than attempting to justify one problem because of the existence of another problem.

[flvegan]

81. I never suggested what you're saying.

At no point did I say that cats didn't kill wildlife significantly.

You are right. Two wrongs don't make a right. My point is that people tend to judge through opinion. Example, you value songbirds and baby rabbits, yet would be happy killing rats, snakes (and now) cats. Convenience and personal desire. I understand personal safety, especially if you have children, etc, so don't bother.

Also, as to my point, maybe Gunsmoke Louie out there with his .22 and hatred of ferals might choose to attend some of the development meetings in town, and oppose same, rather than trying to pass legislature legalizing his proposal to start using cats as skeet.

[Zorra]

109. Good points.

:hi:

[Butterflies]

61. I can't see a majority voting for this

most people don't have that kind of hatred for cats. Besides, most people who have cats as pets have had them sneak outside every once in awhile. Mark Smith is an ass.

[JunkYardDogg]

62. Correction- Open Season on Democats

You must of seen the wrong copy


Ruff
Ruff

GRRRR !!!!

[Dorian Gray]

63. Sick!

I would sic my new kitty on him, if she had a mean bone in her body! What kind of sick F*** is this guy?

[theboss]

70. I don't like cats

They steal a baby's breath, you know.

[LisaL]

73. I don't like people like you.

LOL.
And they don't steal a baby's breath-that's a bunch of nonsense, an old wives tale.

[uppityperson]

84. And they hang out with witches

but they ALWAYS land on their ft when dropped
Dogs have owners, cats have staff
Some brands of cat litter are radioactive
and Bonsai Kitten is real

I like stupid legends

[slackmaster]

90. Actually they smother babies by sleeping on top of them

Good riddance, I say.

[LisaL]

102. It's a complete nonsense. I can believe that at this day and

age people still believe this crap. Cats do not smother babies by sleeping on them. Here, educate yourself a little before posting this nonsense.
http://www.paws.org/cas/resources/fact_sheets_cats/catskids.html
:spank: :spank: :spank:

[slackmaster]

104. I can't believe that anyone would fail to detect such obvious sarcasm

Get a clue, lizzy!

:nuke:

[LisaL]

146. Well, sorry, a couple of pregnant women recently asked me for advice

on what to do with their cats, because they ( or their relatives) believed cats smother babies. WTF do you think I am supposed to know if you are just as ignorant as those women are, or being sarcastic? I am not a mind reader, get a clue, will ya.

[slackmaster]

151. I thought the "Good riddance" in regards to babies would be enough

Of a clue. I guess it wasn't enough for you.

[LisaL]

188. I presumed you meant cats when you said good riddance.

[slackmaster]

210. Antecedent rule

Babies was referred to most recently, therefore had to have been the subject of "Good riddance".

[Lorien]

163. Geez

I suppose you believe that people who float instead of drown are witches, too?

Good grief, it's suddenly 850AD around here. :eyes:

[slackmaster]

169. IT WAS SARCASM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Didn't you get the part about "Good riddance" in reference to babies?

I suppose you believe that people who float instead of drown are witches, too?

No, it's the other way around.

Witches float BECAUSE THEY'RE MADE OF WOOD. Ordinary humans sink and drown. That's how you sort out witches from non-witches.

DUH!

:dunce:

[Lorien]

201. Geez, you know the GD rules

look at other posts on this thread; others are saying the same kind of nonsense in earnestness. If you intend sarcasm, write / sarcasm. I can't see you, never heard of you before, so I don't know if you believe what you write or not. Obviously, I'm not the only one who took you at your word.


And read my post again:"people who float instead of drown are witches" the "other way around" would mean that a witch would drown.

:dunce: :dunce:

[slackmaster]

209. I was not aware of the GD rule - Thanks

<sarcasm>

Jeez, you have to be a mind-reader not to piss everybody off on this forum.

</sarcasm>

[Beaverhausen]

92. WRONG!!!

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/catsuck.htm

[KamaAina]

77. Bill Frist moved to Wisconsin??

MeeeeeeeOWWWWWWW!!

How does this "cat killa" propose to distinguish a feral cat from your basic orange tabby out on the prowl? Why does he need to shoot feral cats, anyway? Don't they have stop signs up there?

Finally, do hunters themselves really get to make the call on what constitutes an "unprotected species"? Aren't there laws against animal cruelty?

[adigal]

82. This is why Frist will never be president - Cat Torturer

Look at all of the responses to this thread. We LOVE our animals, and don't mess with them.

Now if only we could find out Bush terrorizes Miss Beasly, the new puppy.

[Sentath]

89. As a former telco employee

I'm having a hard time with this bill.

Do I like it for reducing the amount of cat urine on outdoor equipment
or
do I dislike it for increasing the likelyhood of cat pee on indoor equipment?

choices choices....

[Craig3410]

94. Well, I've got 6(!) cats, and...

3 are completely indoor, one is mostly indoor but goes outside sometimes, one is mostly outside but manages to sneak inside sometimes, and one is spayed and feral.


If anyone shot any one of them, I'd personally shoot them back.

[blindpig]

95. again?

If people would be more responsible with their cats this would not come up. Domestic cats in the environment are an invasive species. So are dogs, black & Norway rats, pigeons, starlings, house sparrows and more others than I care to think about. They all affect native wildlife in deleterious ways.

I do not want people's pets being shot. If my dogs, sweet pups that they are, got loose in the neighborhood it could get ugly because they might savage any nonhuman/canine that they might encounter, including people's chickens and goats. So I go to pains to keep them contained. Cats do the same, doesn't matter how much you feed them.

People need to keep their cats at home. As for these spayed/feral colonies I hear about, what a crock. They're still killing wildlife left and right. Give them a home or put them down. It's sad but don't we do the same thing with dogs?

Although I am NOT a libertarian it occurs to me that this issue would be framed much differently if the multitude of wildlife destroyed by domestic cats were OWNED by somebody....Another tragedy of the commons.

[slackmaster]

96. You left out the most invasive species of all

Homo sapiens.

My indoor-outdoor cat controls rodents in my garden. It's his job.

I keep him in at night. Do you have a problem with that?

[livinginphotographs]

100. The award for the most insightful post of this thread....

Goes to you. I don't think the rainforests and the ozone are being depleted by cats.

There wouldn't be a "problem" with feral cats if people didn't introduce them into that environment in the first place, namely by deciding to keep a "pet" and not spay or neuter it.

[blindpig]

123. Quite correct concerning homo sapiens

But we're working on it!

I question the efficiency of cats as ratters, I've heard of some who were reputedly kinghell ratters but most seem to be opportunistic hunters.

As you keep him on your property and bring him in at night I can't complain much. Might still get a few, but I'm not a complete asshole.

Consider this possibility, what value of insect control in your garden are you losing because your cats presence excludes birds? Snakes are also good ratters. (Sarcasm? you decide)

[slackmaster]

130. I never have much of a problem with insects

The only insects that really cause problems for me are giant whitefly, an exotic species that attacks hibiscus bushes (another exotic species but what the heck, there they are).

Aphids are usually easily controlled here with plain water spray. If they get out of hand, you can attack the ants that enslave them. Birds are not of much use against either.

The most problemmatic garden pest here is the brown snail. (drumroll) Another exotic species.

[blindpig]

137. snail control

Your local toads will probably be helpful with the smaller ones and your local slender salamanders quite likely feed upon neonate snails. Shame there are no native box turtles in your area, snails are their ambrosia!

[slackmaster]

139. I live in San Diego, California

It's very dry here most of the time. Toads are found only in riparian areas except when it's raining. The climate is too dry for them. Salamanders require bodies or streams of fresh water. Those exist here only during the rainy season, except for a few rivers that have some water in them somewhere most of the time. There is nothing that would support a toad or salamander within about a half mile of my home.

There actually are native turtles in the fresh water wetlands here, but there are far more escaped or abandoned pet turtles. Several years ago my desert tortoise escaped. I put up signs around the neighborhood offering a generous reward for his return. Before someone actually found my torotise, three other people called to try to collect the money. Two of them had Asian box turtles, and one had a red-eared slider (also not native to the area). The desert tortoise is a strict vegan BTW. He does not eat snails, but alligator lizards and some birds do.

The most effective non-toxic snail control I've found is African decollate snails. Yeah, another exotic species, but their dietary preferences are (from most to least favorite) brown snails, decaying vegetation, and fresh green leafy matter. They rarely have to resort to fresh greens.

[blindpig]

155. you'd be surprised

yeah, checked your profile. Those slender salamanders breed on land and require only a moist microhabitat in order to thrive. The species is even known as the Garden Slender Salamander! If your home is older and the top soil hasn't been ravaged then there's a good chance that you've got them. California toads and Western Spadefoot toads are found thru out your area, the Arroyo toad has been extirpated from the immediate San Diego area it is found in the valleys to the east. Many toads have no problem with deserts as long as it rains sufficiently every few years.

[slackmaster]

158. I live on 30 feet of fill

There is nothing even close to native soil on my property.

If I had a say in the matter I would have strongly objected to my neighborhood being built. The developer filled in a large canyon to make about 150 lots. That was in 1962-1963. It's an environmental disaster.

It's a terrible shame what they did back then, but there is no way to undo the damage. The canyon is completely obliterated. The environment is completely artificial every place my cat goes when he's out. That's why I think it's so absurd that people make a fuss about the "damage" done by cats.

Humans are the problem, not cats.

[blindpig]

161. shame about your neighborhood

but that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater, there is probably some surviving habitat nearby. Hell, you've got that enormous state park to your east, most excellent.

I live on land that was ravaged by 150 years of cotton and maize cultivation yet still has 26 species of native herpetofauna. Nature has a better chance when you don't beat it when it's down.

[slackmaster]

162. Most of San Diego County is undeveloped, not suitable for house cats

Where nature is really in control, domestic cats get quickly eaten by coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions, owls, hawks, etc.

I'm glad you have heard of Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. I think it's the largest state park outside of Alaska. I go there often for camping and backpacking trips. No domestic cat could survive there for long. Aside from Anza-Borrego, we have vast areas of mountains and canyons that are in pretty good shape, except for the absence of our extinct state mammal the silvertip Grizzly, and the lack of jaguars which were wiped out in the 19th Century.

Very strangely, black bears have been recently sighted in the San Diego County backcountry for the first time ever. Some wildlife biologists believe that the absence of grizzlies for nearly 80 years has made it possible for black bears to take over territory that was never available to them before.

[disillusioned1]

128. I don't have a problem with that at all

Cats keep the rodent population down, and if the trend continues to keep them all indoors, we will have the Plague Redux. Rodent fleas carried the bubonic plague. I can't imagine what rat fleas carry now.

We had an inside/outside cat at one time who was both neutered and declawed and STILL killed crows.

[Broca]

111. I used to attend the WI Conservation Congress

religiously until about 3 years ago when they voted to open a season on Mourning Doves, our State Bird of Peace so they could blow them apart with shotguns. As a life-long hunter I voted against it but the NRA types bussed in supporters to increase their vote margin. The vote to put the cat in the same status as skunks and opposums will pass easily. It will not affect things much. Cats found in hunting grounds away from buildings are routinely shot by hunters already. This will merely insure its legality.

This issue is always more controversial and divisive than abortion.


Studies that support suppressing feral cat populations:

http://www.cals.wisc.edu/media/news/03_97/killer_cats.html

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/nature/research/cats_txwildlife.htm

Studies that support these imported, invasive, non-indigenous species being protected in the wild:

[DireStrike]

135. "free roaming domestic" cats are not feral cats. -nt-

[gulfcoastliberal]

118. Please, everyone google cats+wildlife and read just how harmful

they are to wildlife and the environment. They shouldn't be outside, period. Anyone who claims to give a damn about wildlife and the environment should put aside their emotion and examine the facts. Cats, like asian mollusks, should not be in our environement - but since they are, and are an unnatural invasive apex predator means they fuck shit up big time. Get over it, domestic cats are not endangered nor should they be treated as such. They should either be kept inside or declawed. Not only is it harmful for the environment, it is harmful to the cat itself to allow it to roam outdoors.

http://www.wildspirit.org/hazard.htm

http://www.njaudubon.org/Conservation/CatsIndoors/cats/hazardNJAS.PDF

http://www.ecofloridamag.com/archived/news_cats.htm

[livinginphotographs]

125. It's also harmful to be declawed.

Although we agree that they should be kept inside.

But I thought this was a debate about allowing Gunsmoke Louie (as he was affectionally referred to by another poster in this thread) to use neighborhood cats for target practice?

[slackmaster]

126. Some wildlife needs to be killed in the interests of human health

Consider why cats were domesticated in the first place: To kill vermin like rats and mice.

Rats and mice still cause problems for people (e.g. nibbling at my tomatoes in the summer), and domesticated cats still serve their original function. My big guy Unit 3 has bagged two pocket gophers, three rats, and several mice since the first of the year.

[gulfcoastliberal]

140. I acknowledge they kill pests in their hunting,

But the fact that they also kill endangered birds & wildlife can not be disputed. Due to sheer numbers of outdoor domesticated felines, the harm far outweighs the good. I'm not talking about specific instances, such as tomato protection duty, just generalities - that the domesticated feline population far exceeds wild prey, so they kill whatever they can get their claws on.

[slackmaster]

149. The situation in my area is nowhere near a natural state

By killing off natural predators like coyotes, foxes, and rattlesnakes; and bringing in all of our trash and food and landscaping humans have created conditions that allow rats and mice to flourish way beyond the numbers that would be supported had we never come to the area. The changes we have made have been harmful to some species of birds like those that nest in wetlands, but helpful to some like crows. It's a far cry from a state of nature, and there really is no easy way back.

I'm pretty sure that if there were no wandering cats it would be much more difficult to keep the rats in particular under control. Cats become most problemmatic when they go into undeveloped areas like canyons, but even there the state of things is not natural. Many native species have been edged out by exotic plants and animals.

[BikeWriter]

254. Thank you, feral cats do not belong in the wild here.

[mimitabby]

286. and compare that to how harmful HUMANS are

start with destruction of habitat,
pollution,
and how about just the sheer number of roadkills of every
living animal species??

cats don't even come close.

[XemaSab]

138. Cats are nasty

They kill for fun, they aren't native, they're really horrible for native wildlife, and they should be afforded the same legal protections as nutria, rats, starlings, and house sparrows: none.

I say any outdoor cat should be fair game.

If you don't agree with this, keep your cat indoors.

(Full disclosure: I have a cat, and she's a little shit. She's totally indoors, and has no interest in going outside. She has no interest in anything other than sleeping in the closet all day and being left alone. And if you try to pick her up she pees on you.)



But my kitty STAYS INDOORS!!!!!!!!!

[slackmaster]

141. I think outdoor children should be fair game

They do all the nasty things you say cats do. Anyone who lets their kids roam free doesn't really care about them.

[XemaSab]

177. True dat

Free roaming, unsupervised youth do drugs, steal things, and commit acts of vandalism. Then the cops come and round them up and take them to juvie.

[DireStrike]

142. Any chance your cat was abused?

I've seen other abused cats act exactly the same way. My mom lived with two abused cats who stayed in the closet all day, cowered and/or attacked and peed on any humans who got near.

Later I moved in with her. She had one of the cats still. He had calmed down a lot, and was moving fairly freely through the house. He really didn't like it when I moved in - he hated any male humans. Nonetheless, within a year he was greeting me at the door and sleeping on my pillow.

[Lorien]

165. "Was"? How about "Is".

:grr:

[XemaSab]

178. It's possible

that she had bad experiences before we got her. We got her when she was about 8 weeks old, and she had already been 2 other places. She's been like that since we got her, and that was back in '91. I know enough people with neurotic cats that it really seems like a grab bag whether you're going to wind up with a mellow, well adjusted cat or a very, very odd cat.

[LisaL]

143. It's not illegal to have cats outdoors. So, it has to be illegal to shoot

them. As for you, I am amazed at your attitude. Cats are not nasty, no more nasty than children are.

[XemaSab]

183. I'm not sure your logic holds up.

n/t

[Pithlet]

196. I don't want people with guns shooting ANYTHING near me

Let alone cats. The last thing we need are yahoos with the freedom to shoot at anything that moves, all year round. I don't want me or my kids in the crossfire.

I think the asshole that proposes this has a serious mental problem. Flame away.

[Ms. Clio]

223. Really--what happens when a neighborhood kid gets shot

by one of these mighty hunters? Then you will see the fur fly!

[hippiegranny]

154. I want open season

on Wisconsin hunters who want to shoot cats.

I think there is something pathologically wrong with people who hate cats.

[slackmaster]

160. Agree completely

I met a man who told me he thought cats were "filthy animals". He believed the "old wives'" tales about cats killing babies, etc.

Later that day I saw the man defecate in the middle of a backpacking trail. This happened in the Stanislaus National Forest, about 100 feet away from the Stanislaus River, which supplies drinking water for several towns.

[Lorien]

164. Me too

people who take joy in the suffering of defenseless animals need not contribute to the gene pool. The world has enough Jeffery Dahmer wannabes in it already!

[Vinca]

159. Only if there's open season on hunters who trespass on my property.

If anyone killed my cat it would be killing a member of the family and I would go berserk . . . guaranteed. (I also own a .357, so that's not a "good" thing.)

[B Calm]

173. Cats are hunters and love killing baby rabbits. I wish people

wouldn't dump the cats out in the country. I love cats and right now I'm feeding four wild cats because I feel sorry for them and I really don't want them killing wild animals.

[DireStrike]

206. See if you can do a capture-neuter-release

Any animal control in your area? Call them and see what they can do. You don't want a population of feral cats springing up...its no good for people, other animals, or the cats.

[OilemFirchen]

180. I support this guy...

... presuming, of course, that either

a) the cat's armed and poses an immediate threat, or
b) he eats what he shoots.

[Cleita]

187. When I worked in the woods, I often wished we had open

season on free-roaming hunters. Just a personal prejudice. This species arrives in the fall, takes over a woodland neighborhood, tramples it down and terrorizes even the critters who aren't their prey. Then they leave their mess behind for someone else to clean up. Just a personal prejudice, mind you.

[rzemanfl]

193. Lived in Wisconsin for a number of years. Most hunters there

acted like there was an open season on cats, law or not.

[nedbal]

199. On Feral Cats PETA took the right stand,, euthanize feral cats

I had and have a problem in my neighborhood, and when I quote the peta position only a few will still argue I should pay hundreds to spay and then find homes for them. I've never relocated them to some abandoned area or harmed them, I just deliver them to the pound.

http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=38
Because of the huge number of feral cats and the severe shortage of good homes, the difficulty of socialization, and the dangers lurking where most feral cats live, it may be necessary and the most compassionate choice to euthanize feral cats. You can ask your veterinarian to do this or, if your local shelter uses an injection of sodium pentobarbital, take the cats there. Please do not allow the prospect of euthanasia to deter you from trapping cats. If you leave them where they are, they will almost certainly die a painful death. A painless injection is far kinder than any fate that feral cats will meet if left to survive on their own.

[DS1]

204. How about open season on hunters? Hell, I think people should

be allowed to hunt each other in the woods. Call it a long-distance Fight Club, with designated areas.

[meisje]

212. Cats are nothing but domesticated rodents! n/t

[Lindacooks]

281. My goodness, you certainly have a chip on your shoulder.

It's pure bigotry to dismiss an entire species because you are uncomfortable with them.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

213. It's that FRINGE GROUP the NRA again!

:puke:

[Berserker]

226. This thread is

really strange. It went from killing cats to people saying that people who hate cats are assholes and other hateful bullshit. Thats painting people with a very broad brush. I think that people that say cat haters are assholes are assholes themselves.
I HATE cats. I do not hate people that love cats that is their choice. Nothing like a house that smells like cat piss I always say. What this article is about are Ferrel cats that run wild in the woods of Wisconsin. Not little tabby thats runs from someones yard to shit in the woods. Ferrel Cats Kill for sport they do not only kill for survival they kill just for sport. Young rabbits, Pheasants and other small animals they may encounter even when they are not hunting for food. It is nature for a cat to do this. I think Ferrel cats should be exterminated when found in the woods.

[Pithlet]

239. LOL

I think that your post would be held up as exhibit A by some of those people.

"Gee, I don't know why they think that people who hate cats are assholes, after I go on a tirade about how awful they are and how they should be killed." :crazy:

[Skittles]

250. that's exactly what I thought

the moniker certainly fits

[Berserker]

252. well thank you skittles

[slackmaster]

260. Well it's true dammit

People who hate cats ARE all assholes.

[autorank]

220. Let's put this guy in the woods with a Tiger for 72 hours. Here kitty, ha

[aquart]

225. "Hunters will vote"?????????

This man is going to be so very very very sorry.

[ultraist]

234. It's illegal to fire a gun in most city limits

It is in my city. Beebee guns, rifles, whatver. Not allowed to fire them within city limits for good reason.

I don't mind when my neighbor's cats hang out in my yard but I did have a neighbor with an unneutered cat that SPRAYED by lawn furniture, that was disgusting.

All outdoors cats/dogs should be neutered and spayed and if they aren't the owner should get a ticket. There are enough stray, starving animals around.

Allowing them to shoot people's pets is gross. What if someone's pet got out by mistake?

[Cleita]

237. According to this guy's logic I should be able to shoot my

neighbor's horses everytime they lean over the fence and eat my ornamental shrubs, or their teenage sons who drive by my house with the radio on full blast so you can hear it in the next county, or really anybody out there on the weekend with loud electric gardening tools.

Whatever happened to the earth belongs to all species. Let us try to get along.

[wisteria]

240. What a nasty person.

There are better ways to control the feral cat population. One organization, Alley Cat Allies has a successful program that includes trapping, neutering and releasing in a controlled environment. It is working well in Atlantic City, NJ and in a few other locations. I just can't imagine someone enjoying shooting at cats. Only a deranged man could come up with this proposal.

[Pithlet]

244. Why, blasting away with a gun

is a perfectly sane and reasonable proposal, don't you think? </sarcasm>

Honestly, this is just an excuse to add more things to the list to shoot and kill. Deer and rodents have become boring, apparently. That's so last century. Time for some new blood. God knows what they'll go after when that gets old. Cats roaming have been around since cats have been domesticated. It's a nuisance, but so much in life is. Some just want to shoot at anything that moves.

[VOX]

243. "Oh, Mr. Hunter/firefighter Mark Smith! Here, Mark! Here, boy! C'mon!"

Thatta boy! Now, hold it right there...

[Booster]

246. A stray cat used to come around at my Mother's house in the

country, didn't bother anyone, just watched them. My stepfather saw it out in the field one day scratching so he got his gun and shot it. Of course it didn't die until hours later when it crawled up to my Mother. My stepfather is a true Republican and thinks he has the right to do whatever he wants. If it hadn't been for my Mother, I would have turned him in to the authorities, but this was in Texas and I'm sure they would have laughed their butts off. When he gets to the pearly gates, I hope St. Peter asks him if he took care of God's cats like he was told to. I moved to Calif and see them about once a year. Very sad cowardly man in my opinion.

[Skittles]

248. self-deleted

because I don't care to hear from asshole hunters about how "noble" their f***ing "sport" is. :puke:

[jojo54]

251. I declare open season....

on all hunter's named Mark Smith in the state of Wisconsin (and anyone else in the entire U.S. of A. who feel the same way). Open season to commence immediately and remain open until all of the above said are either captured or dead.

[bdot]

261. I want open season on hunters.

Make hunters fair game. Make it entertaining.

[Mother Jones]

273. Now THAT's a great idea!

Or maybe we could just make those who support this proposal fair game?


I'm down for that!

[LWolf]

263. Another typical flamewar.

I have a brilliant idea. Instead of fighting about whether or not cats should ever be allowed outside, how about discussing balanced solutions?

I don't think cats should be locked inside for their whole lives. Just me. I've had cats all of my life, and I could not imagine keeping them "caged" indoors forever.

I'd also like to find a good way to restrict them to their own property boundaries. The average property fence is just inadequate for cat containment.

How about some creative affordable fencing solutions? My mom once considered trying to make her whole back yard "escape proof;" she didn't find an easy, affordable way to do that. Perhaps a large group of people focused on solutions could come up with some options for "escape proof" yards, instead of fighting about whether or not cats should ever be allowed out of the house.

I'm moving this summer, and I'm not sure where I'm going to end up. I am open to suggestion for setting up a "catyard" at my new place.

As for shooting a cat, or anyone's pet, may those who resort to such measures to solve problems reap the hostility they've sown.

My dog was shot when I was 14; he survived. I was home alone and had to deal with the whole debacle by myself. I haven't forgotten the experience.

[BikeWriter]

267. Is it not hostile to inflict your cat's feces and urine on your neighbors?

[LWolf]

268. Where is your solution?

The point of my post was not to engage in the battle, but to request reasonable solutions.

It was an honest question. While my cat does not currently live where she can intrude on neighbors, I don't know where I'm going to end up. I'd like to be able to plan an outdoor area that she can't escape from, making sure no neighbor has to deal with her urine or feces (although, frankly, she prefers the privacy and safety of her litter box to the great outdoors for those functions.)

Where are your constructive, creative ideas for achieving the goal?

[Pepperbelly]

270. what about something like the invisible dog fence?

I suppose that some cat lovers might consider it cruel but no crueler than for dogs who won't stay in their own yard.

[LWolf]

272. I don't know much about them.

In the country, electric fences are used routinely. I've used them. My last "electric" fence had a solar charger, and ran a line around the bottom of the fence line. It kept the dogs from digging under the fence to go gallivanting, and it kept coyotes out. The charge was mild enough that my kids used to play "dare" games with it. Unpleasant and surprising, but not painful.

I think this is something like the "invisible" fence, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure what prevents a cat, or dog, from simply leaping over it. Worth investigating, though.

[Pepperbelly]

274. shock collar that ...

lights them up if they stray past the programmed distance from the transceiver. Behavior mod I suppose.

Probably better than having them ran over or killed for their catly or dogly transgressions.

[BikeWriter]

271. It's your responsibility, not mine, but you're literally going to have to.

...keep a lid on her. A two by two box with chickenwire would protect her from owls, hawks, cats, and all but the most destructive dogs.

[Mairead]

298. Are you aware that under ages-old common law, cats are not subject

to being restricted. Which is why leash laws are not applied to cats except in right-wing (i.e. stoopid) jurisdictions. Common law takes account of the fact that cats who are allowed to prowl keep pests away, a very important public-health function that they've performed as part of their friendship with us now for at least 9000 years.

[HEyHEY]

289. Bout dam time

;-)

[Runcible Spoon]

297. THERE ARE OTHER SIMPLE OPTIONS BESIDES SHOOTING CATS

to keep them away...for example, you can just spray coyote piss or leave citrinella scented items near your bird feeders. My Audobon-card-carrying-also-cat-owning friend does this and swears by it. Birds don't mind, cats stay away, no guns used, everybody happy. Sorry if someone else posted this but I don't have the energy to wade through 200+ posts on this topic.

[Pithlet]

299. That is exactly why

all this is is an excuse to shoot things. And I can't believe the amount of support that is getting here. This hunter doesn't want to do the things you suggest, because it isn't as fun as pulling out a gun and blowing their furry little asses to bits. This isn't a cat hater/cat lover debate. This is about "There's a living thing! I gotta shoot it! Wooweee!" This guy doesn't give a shit about proper pet ownership. In fact, responsible pet owners would cut down on his opportunity to satisfy his gun lust.

All the issues brought up in this thread about proper cat ownership are valid, but in the context of "Let's kill 'em!" that this thread is about, it seems like defense of something rather indefensible.

[Runcible Spoon]

315. thanks for your reply, Pithlet.

and for not jumping all over me. I don't understand why my post drew such a nasty reply :shrug: I guess some people would rather argue for hours as opposed to consider a solution that would satify all.

[Scout]

306. THERE ARE OTHER SIMPLE OPTIONS

LIKE THEIR OWNERS KEEPING THEM ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY!

This is the simplest and best option ... birds don't mind, cats stay away from my yard, no guns used, everybody happy.

If you can't be bothered to read the thread, at least don't shout at everyone.

[Runcible Spoon]

314. fine, satisfy your bloodlust.

I didn't post in an inflammatory way, I don't know why you felt necessary to respond to me with nastiness. I did read a good deal of the thread, and I've been around long enough to know this has been debated ad nauseum. Cats get out. It happens, no matter how careful you are with them. Why risk some poor kid's pet being blown to smithereens? I find it awfully ironic that the same people who love to listen to the little tweety birds wouldn't think twice about blowing away some child's beloved pet? Don't lecture me about not reading the thread. I offered something I thought was productive and useful and had to use caps to get this information looked at. Apparently it doesn't fit in your selfish violent pespective.

[cynatnite]

307. Frightening proposal

I grew up in a small farm town and no one did much about the huge dogs roaming the neighborhood until my sister was attacked while riding her bike. They would tear into the trash cans almost nightly.

We started keeping a BB gun close by and whenever they got near the house, we'd shoot the dogs. It didn't hurt them, but it kept them away. Problem solved.

One of the problems in this country when it comes to pets is not enough people take responsibility for them. I'm talking vaccinations and neutering them. Any responsible pet owner should be required to care of their pets.

We live out of town and on most days there are always wandering dogs and cats. Just a few weeks ago my husband and I found a puppy that had been dumped on the side of the road. The humane society got it. It shocked us because it appeared to be a full-blooded beagle and was adorable.

The problem I see with this proposed law is the complications which will follow. If cats are allowed to be shot, then dogs will probably be next. What's after that?

To me, this proposal is just ridiculous and opens a door that will be very hard to close. There is already too much animal cruelty that goes on in this country and this has too much potential to be abused.

[Skip Intro]

308. Maybe rednecks that hunt cats should be fair game

what a sick group of poeple.

This is beyond belief.

I bet these goons run down strays trying to cross the road.

Yee Haw!

I'd like to be alone with someone like this for a few minutes.

I'd glady give myself up afterwards.

[RedCappedBandit]

309. i'd be fine with it

if I were permitted to shoot any human who invades my private property.

[infusionman]

312. We should have open season on hunters who...

Promote the large scale breeding of animals such as deer for the sport of killing them.

With the deer population especially in Pennsylvania extremely high, the deer are causing accidents and millions of dollars in properety loss, not to mention loss of life, all in the name of sport.

[BreweryYardRat]

323. Grr...

Mark Smith just made my grudge list. See all the pro-cat arguments for the reasons why.

Anyone who's seen Predator remember what happened to the guys they find near the start of the film? :evilgrin:

[Moderator]

325. Locking...

Flamewar.