Crazy Horse Monument

[Stop_the_War]

http://www.crazyhorse.org/index.shtml

[tx_dem41]

1. That horse does look kind of crazy!

:silly:

[Stop_the_War]

2. kick

[misanthrope]

3. You do realize...

...that a person of Crazy Horse's particular cultural background would likely not be too fond of anyone defacing the land so severely, right?

Is this really honoring Crazy Horse...or the men who conceived and executed it?

[Warpy]

4. It's honoring the scuptor.

Native American cultures are even more widely varied than European nations are, but the one thing they all seem to share is a reverence for the earth. I doubt they'd like to see one of the earth's perfect mountains defaced in this manner.

Crazy Horse would kick this guy's ass.

[misanthrope]

5. Other nations aside...

...I can tell you a Lakota of the mid-19th Century wouldn't have dug this at all.

Many people still see Mt. Rushmore with a more jaundiced eye than the average citizen. Not only is the sculpture garish and nationalistic, but its location is no accident.

The Black Hills were sacred to the Lakota. Known to them as Paha Sapa, it was there that Crazy Horse led his first war party of some significance, repelling a surveying party led by George Custer for merely daring to venture into that revered land.

Carving those faces into the Black Hills was understandably felt as an affront and defilement to many.

[Deja Q]

14. Exactly.

My previous post notwithstanding... the Lakota were never keen on the epithet "Crazy Horse" either.

[ochazuke]

6. Cheers to the replies

I'm glad to see that posters realize what a lousy tribute that sculpture is to Native Americans. I suppose most of you know that you have to pay ($15 last I heard) to visit the place. It's been under constrution since at least the 70s.

[Stop_the_War]

7. You have to pay $15?!?!

I thought it was a good idea until I heard this. It should be FREE to visit. If the greedy builders want to make money, they can make some souvenir stands! ARRRRGH! :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[DeaconBlues]

15. The builders claim that they charge what they do because they do not

accept federal assistance. It has something to do with the libertarian bent of the original sculpter (the project is being continued by his children).

They plan to construct a hospital and university that fit the needs of the Native American community on the site. At the rate they are working, however, it probably will take a century to complete the monument alone.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. You have to pay to

see Rushmore too.

[FlemingsGhost]

8. "Mommy ... who is Crazy Horse? What are Lakotas ..."

History has value.

[liberalhistorian]

11. Wait a minute.

First of all, the reason you have to pay so much is because they accept NO federal or state funding, PERIOD. It's been offered, but with strings attached and they don't want to have to dance to the government's tune.

Second, it's more than worth it. I've vacationed in the Black Hills nearly every summer for the past 35 years and I've gone there every year. I've been able to track and note the changes and additions. They now have a Native American cultural center and museum as well as a gift shop that sells hand-crafted Native American goods, particularly Sioux and Navajo pottery and cultural items, for which the artists receive a fair share of the profits. They also hold historic programs giving the Indian side of history, including how the Black Hills were stolen right from under the Sioux, there's no sugar-coating of anything for the benefit of the white visitors. And there are plenty of Native American visitors as well, it's starting to equal Mount Rushmore in visitors every year. They also contribute to scholarships for Native American students.

They also host Native American artists, musicians and authors as guests who give programs and explain, sell and autograph their unique works.

Many white tourists have no idea of the true history behind the Black Hills and the brutal conquest of the Sioux in order for whites to get their hands on such a beautiful, sacred piece of land and the Crazy Horse Center helps to fill that gap.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Have you ever been down to

Wounded Knee?

We went there last summer the same day we went to Rushmore. What a contrast!!

[liberalhistorian]

36. Yes, I have, actually,

because I've studied Lakota Sioux history/culture/religion in depth (I got interested in it when my family first started vacationing in the Black Hills. At that time, we actually lived in South Dakota) for many, many years and that was one of the main events I studied in detail. We were living in South Dakota at the time of what's been called Wounded Knee II, in 1973, when the Sioux occupied it, and even though I was only eight years old I'll never forget the horrendously racist, bigoted reactions and comments from the good white folk of S.D. My parents were equally disgusted. People just assumed that because we were white we'd agree with them, so we really got our eyes opened as to the true nature of a lot of those around us.

Yes, it is, indeed, quite a contrast, similar to the contrast between Crazy Horse Monument and Mount Rushmore. I don't care if I never see Rushmore again or listen to the bullshit propaganda emanating from it, either; the only reason I went the last time we were in the Hills was to take my son and show him the contrast. There was a book that came out last year called "Mount Rushmore: An Icon Revisited", that was truly remarkable. I rarely can afford to buy hardcover books, but I had to buy that one and read it. Quite an eye-opener. It showed what a horrible bigot Gutzom Borglum, the man behind Rushmore and its main sculptor, was and how the presidents depicted had contributed to the downfall or continued persecution of Native Americans, not to mention the supreme irony of it being built in the very area that's symbolic of this nation's whole relationship with the Native Americans, the area blatantly stolen from the Sioux despite the Treaty of 1868 that promised we would never touch the Hills.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I cried

One of my very favorite books is Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. I read it in high school and it had a very profound effect on me. Seeing that place, even all these years later, made me cry.

The trip to get there is also very memorable. Seeing the reservation and how the Native Americans live today was just heartbreaking. Makes me ashamed to be an American.

[TankLV]

17. We were there in '65. It's been going on a lot longer than that.

I think it's still a great sculpture, even if I agree with the others about the defilement/insult it is to the person/persons it is meant to honor.

Cultural ignorance is quite astounding.

[Andyjunction]

9. Don't be so quick to judge

This monument was commisioned by the Lakota-Sioux indians shortly after the completion of Mt. Rushmore only a few miles away. When and if it's completed there will be an American Indian university on the site. It's also being constructed with absolutely no government funding which is why they charge a fee to enter the museum. But you can see it just as well from the road if that's all you're interested in. It's been under construction since the '40s and probably won't be done for another 100 years or so.

All four of the faces from Mt. Rushmore would fit on the forearm of Crazy Horse it's so incredibley massive.

[FlemingsGhost]

10. Thank you, Andy. (n/t)

[liberalhistorian]

12. Exactly, I was just about to post

the same thing. The Sioux leaders themselves requested this monument and commissioned it from Korczak Zielkowski, a Polish sculptor. He then gave up the rest of his life to making the monument a reality, and to telling the Indian side of the story and basically blowing a huge hole right through the middle of the bullshit propaganda spewed forth by the Mount Rushmore Center, which is unbelievable if you ever hear it. There's just no comparison between Rushmore and Crazy Horse.

He worked alone at first and built a 700-step stairway to the top of the mountain, at little or no compensation, including during the cold, snowy wintertime. You can now take a bus trip right up to the base of the mountain itself and the remains of the original tiny shack he built to live in is there

[Deja Q]

13. Last I recall, the name 'Crazy Horse' is an insult to the Native Americans

I N S U L T

I also cringe on the Star Trek Next Generation episode where the Admiral of the week tries not to feel ashamed when she says "Starship Crazy Horse".

Lovely monument. But the name's only going to confuse the informed.

[CatWoman]

16. The guy who carved the Confederate images on Stone Mountain

also carved the presidents on Rushmore.

I've heard that he is a racist pig.

Is the "artist" here in the same vein?

[TankLV]

18. No, from what I remember.

He sincerely meant to honor the native americans by doing this.

[DeaconBlues]

19. I doubt he would devote much of his adult life to a monument honoring

a Native American hero if he was a "racist pig."

[CatWoman]

22. why I asked the question

because I didn't know.

ok with you?

[DeaconBlues]

27. And I answered your question to the best of my ability

Is that okay with you?

[CatWoman]

31. considering that I was talking to the author of this thread

no.

want a little lace with that arsenic?

[FlemingsGhost]

33. Cat fight! (n/t)

Flem.

[KharmaTrain]

20. Borglum Was Your Typical 20's Wingnut...LOL

There are two Borglums responsible for Mt. Rushmore. The old man...was combination wingnut and speculator. He scammed the GOOP to back this really wild idea in the 20's and then kept the federal money rolling...playing whatever political card he had to. In the 20's he sucked up to the Klan and then under Roosevelt the Dixiecrats. He was your typical racist, sexist, biggoted man of his times.

His son, Lincoln Borglum is a different story. Most of the work was done when he took over and treated his people very well. The History Channel has done several shows on the monument and it's fascinating how this thing was constructed.

I think the old man drew the sketches for Stone Mountain, but he didn't do the construction, since IIRC, that stonehenge to NASCAR wasn't built until after Mt. Rushmore and his death.

Regarding the Crazy Horse Monument. Thank-you for posting. I've seen periodic articles about this mountain for several decades and had forgotten about it. The last I remember, the horse was still being carved and the old man building this monument was still alive (fuzzy memory of a news report with him on a tractor).

$15 or not, I'd gladly visit this site now that I know it's there and how close it is to Rushmore. The Lakota culture and nation lives in those hills and at least there's a place that honors these people rather than their conquerors and exploiters.

[Swamp Rat]

21. None of my friends or ancestors would destroy nature in this way.

Building monuments that destroy nature and the Earth is not the way. Charging a fee to see this destruction (homage to the artist) is revolting to say the least. :puke:

[FlemingsGhost]

23. How do you feel about building casinos? (n/t)

Flem.

[shance]

24. Whoosh!!

Two points :)

[Swamp Rat]

30. I don't play basketball, that would be the Aztecs... where the winner

loses his head. "WHOOSH!" - "THUNK!"

Irony is NOT a ferrous-like substance! :D


Edit: "Aztecs" ...Oops! Hoo sayd Swamp Rats can spell purrfecly? ;)

[shance]

34. Astects??

Is that a type of contact lens?

:)

[Swamp Rat]

35. Don't get scatological now!

:D

[Swamp Rat]

25. I hate them.

We have a huge, ugly Harrah's Casino smack dab in the middle of Downtown New Orleans. They destroyed the Rivergate (architecturally significant structure) to build that nasty place.

I hate casinos ANYWHERE they appear. :grr:

[Stop_the_War]

26. Me too...n/t

[Charon]

39. Building Monuments

Unless I am terribly mistaken, tremendous quanities of stone was quarried, carved and erected in monuments, pyramids and cities by the Native Americans south of the Rio Grande. Or dont they count?

[Swamp Rat]

40. Do you have a point?

I brought up the Aztecs in another thread because I was talking about basketball... but you already know that, right? ;)

Tashunca-Uitco was Oglala-Brule Sioux, a tribe that had little to do with stone monument/pyramid builders. So, what's your point?

edit:

[uppityperson]

32. Thanks for the pict and link.

I haven't been there for 25 yrs. At that time he had the hole throught the mountain done. I'm glad to see that the family is continuing on with it and still keeping it private.

I appreciate it for what it is, and don't just compare to the Black Hills invasion or mt.rushmore or Wounded Knee(bah).

[screembloodymurder]

38. Bush to replace Crazy Horse.

Wants his own monument.

[Bouncy Ball]

41. I went there just this summer

looked at and read everything in the museum. The guy who started it is dead, his wife is dead, his children are carrying it on, but from what I could tell, he had a STRONG love for Native Americans/Indians, really cared about them and this was an act of love and admiration. I don't know what "Crazy Horse" would have thought of it.

The foundation has three major goals: the mountain carving, the Indian Museum of North America, and the Indian University (and Medical Training Center) of North America.

Sculptor Korczak Ziolkowski wrote the following explanation of why Native American leaders chose Crazy Horse for the mountain carving:

Crazy Horse was born on Rapid Creek in 1842(?). While at Fort Robinson, Nebraska, under a flag of truce, he was stabbed in the back by an American soldier and died September 6, 1877 -- age 35.

Crazy Horse defended his people and their way of life in the only manner he knew.

BUT --

Only after he saw the Treaty of 1868 broken. This treaty signed by the President of the United States, said, "As long as rivers run and grass grows and trees bear leaves, Paha Sapa -- the Black Hills -- will forever be the sacred lands of the Lakota Indians."

Only after he saw his leader, Conquering Bear, exterminated by treachery.

Only after he saw the failure of the government agents to bring required treaty guarantees, such as meat, clothing, tents and necessities for existence which they were to receive for having given up their lands and gone to live on reservations.

Only after he saw his people's lives and their way of life ravaged and destroyed,

Crazy Horse has never been known to have signed a treaty or touched a pen.

Crazy Horse is to be carved not so much as a lineal likeness, but more as a memorial to the spirit of Crazy Horse -- to his people. With his left hand thrown out pointing in answer to the derisive question asked by a white man, "Where are your lands now?" he replied, "My lands are where my dead lie buried."

May 29, 1949
Korczak Ziolkowski, Sc.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be carved on the mountain in letters three feet high:



WHEN THE COURSE OF HISTORY HAS BEEN TOLD
LET THESE TRUTHS HERE CARVED BE KNOWN:
CONSCIENCE DICTATES CIVILIZATIONS LIVE
AND DUTY OURS TO PLACE BEFORE THE WORLD,
A CHRONICLE WHICH WILL LONG ENDURE.
FOR LIKE ALL THINGS UNDER US AND BEYOND
INEVITABLY WE MUST PASS INTO OBLIVION.

THIS LAND OF REFUGE TO THE STRANGER
WAS OURS FOR COUNTLESS EONS BEFORE:
CIVILIZATIONS MAJESTIC AND MIGHTY.
OUR GIFTS WERE MANY WHICH WE SHARED
AND GRATITUDE FOR THEM WAS KNOWN.
BUT LATER, GIVEN MY OPPRESSED ONES
WERE MURDER, RAPE AND SANGUINE WAR.

LOOKING EAST FROM WHENCE INVADERS CAME,
GREEDY USURPERS OF OUR HERITAGE.
FOR US THE PAST IS IN OUR HEARTS,
THE FUTURE NEVER TO BE FULFILLED.
TO YOU I GIVE THIS GRANITE EPIC
FOR YOUR DESCENDANTS TO ALWAYS KNOW--
"MY LANDS ARE WHERE MY DEAD LIE BURIED."
© Korczak Ziolkowski, Sculptor
Crazy Horse Memorial, Black Hills, S. D.