Bankruptcy Ban law just passed.

[benburch]

The credit card companies now OWN you.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. What were the numbers?

[benburch]

6. Don't know yet.

Got an email from a friend.

[Freddie Stubbs]

200. There are no numbers because it hasn't passed yet

[truebrit71]

2. Which spineless fucking Dems voted for it?

:grr:

[Toucano]

25. I can guess two: The Deleware Duo? n/t

[PROGRESSIVE1]

46. I'm begining to HATE Delaware. Seeing that it's the...

state that is in bed with the Credit Card Mafia and is dependent off of them for their economy, I am begining to see Delaware as a crappy red state.

:grr:

[wryter2000]

159. Dammit, Biden

When are you going to be a Democrat again? :mad:

[PA Democrat]

38. Joe Biden, Dianne Feinstein and Herb Kohl voted for it

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/thenation/20050302/cm_thenation/132232_1

[Toucano]

42. That was the vote for the bill to come out of committee. n/t

[PA Democrat]

56. Sorry. Here is my prediction then

Biden, Carper, Johnson, Baucus, and Nelson will have voted for it.

[movie_girl99]

125. my husband told me that if he

has a heart attack or is diagnosed with cancer, he's going to top himself so our family will not suffer financially. Is that really what things will come to? People committing suicide if they get sick to save their families from being homeless?? Jesus effing christ!!!

[mmonk]

131. I've been thinking

that if I require expensive care, I will insist on just dying. The new court when it's through forming will get rid the of the ADA or effectively neuter it to where my autistic son will have no protection from discrimination. Couple no civil rights protections with no safety net, I want my two sons to have all I have that is possible and will allow myself to die to make sure.

[movie_girl99]

133. it truely brings tears to my eyes

that people feel in order to protect their familes they would rather die. I totally understand but it's not supposed to be this way damnit.

[CitySky]

145. a woman I know

has (1) a niece with cystic fibrosis who requires frequent hospitalizations and pretty much annual surgeries in order to continue breathing; (2) a mother with a herniated disk in her back that requires surgery; and (3) a father with heart disease who has already had one stent put into an artery to extend his life.

The father is currently refusing to go in to have another stent installed because he is still deeply in debt from the first surgery, and knows that his family has no way of paying for another.

He is pretty much willing to die of a heart attack in the next year or so rather than run up further medical bills for this family.

They voted for Bush. It wrenches my gut.

[movie_girl99]

153. that's so awful

when I hear things like that I don't picture it happening here in the good ol USA. Welcome to the good ol USA under rethug leadership.

[wryter2000]

160. Well, shit

Difi. I should have known. We have to get rid of that Dino. California can do better!

[PA Democrat]

58. Senate Roll Call Voting info link

But they don't have the vote up yet for the bill, just the amendments.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_109_1.htm

[Bluebear]

3. NO more keeping your home

NO excpetions for seniors or the ill. NO requirement for credit card companies to disclose how long paying off your balance will take paying only minimum payments.

USA USA USA!!! I am so proud!

This will hurt a lot of poor working class people who voted for Bush to "kick Arab ass" and stop them homos from marrying. 'Woo hoo!'

[leftyandproud]

9. There actually are exceptions for medical bills

I watched the debate today on C-span. Several ammendments passed making bankruptcies based on medical completely fine. They just included a "means test", meaning if you have $20k in the bank and $20k in bills, you don't get to erase it all. You have to pay SOMETHING if you are able.

[Bluebear]

16. So someone paying medicine with credit cards is out of luck

"Also rebuffed, 58-39, were two proposals focused on people whose significant medical expenses for illness force them to file for bankruptcy."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050303/ap_on_go_co/bankruptcy_45

Some people who have lost health insurance are in over their heads because they have charged their drugs.

[madmark]

161. I didn't see the debate but something about that explanation doesnlt

sense. Under current law any cash you have over $150 in the bank goes to a Chapter 7 trustee or in a 13 would have to paid out over time to creditors with interest. The means test is based on income levels and will force people who would otherwise file a 7 into a 13.

[ultraist]

65. In many states, they do not seize your home for unpaid bills except taxes

So don't file bankruptcy and just don't pay the bills. What can they do other than report it to your credit? Your credit gets trashed when you file bankruptcy too.

I hope people are aware of their state laws, it would be horrible if some elderly couple lost their home by filing bankruptcy when they didn't need to file it.

[Jack_DeLeon]

107. Yes...

I'm not sure if I totally understand it correctly but Credit Cards are a certain kind of debt that since you didnt put up any collateral to get it the only thing they can do if you dont pay is fuck up your credit history.

While if say you go take out a loan where you have to put up collateral and you dont pay they can take what you put up as collateral.

So when you see those ads on the TV to refinance your home so you can pay off your credit card debts its something like a scam.

Why would you want to put your house at risk if you cant make payments for something that if you couldnt pay in the first place they cant take anything away from you.

[Digit]

191. Tax man can take your home also in some states.

Saw it done before.

[proud patriot]

4. So glad my family got out from under last year

:-) we owe very little to our credit union
for a used truck loan and that is it ...Whew...

[leftyandproud]

5. Cut up the cards silly

Everyone knows the borrower is slave to the lender. Don't give them that power. Buy USED (cars especially) and live on less than you make. It's the only way to get ahead.

[Bluebear]

7. Great advice now that some people have borrowed to the hilt!

Now no escape is possible.

[catzies]

40. They know that. Bastards.

I despise the credit card companies/banks.

[Bluebear]

44. And the Senators who are in cahoots with them

Fuck you Feinstein, Biden and Kohl.

[oneold1-4u]

88. If we want to clean house---

And senate too, then we want to take a long look at our own doorstep before trying to sweep off the rubbish on the republican's.
If I were to find a republican out that has a better voting record than some of our democrats, I would cross vote in a heartbeat. I think "most Americans" really would like to see some "real honesty" in our political process so let's not keep dumping some big name, rich, crony, crooks for the only choices. Take a good look at Boxer and see if there are some near clones around. Keep all eyes and ears open for some new names of a few good people. We know they are out there!

[wryter2000]

162. Reasonable Republicans

If I were to find a republican out that has a better voting record than some of our democrats, I would cross vote in a heartbeat.

If you find a Republican like that, let the rest of us know. I haven't seen any. Things are pretty sad when Arlen Specter is the best Republican around.

[Blue_Tires]

175. Chafee (Rhode Island)

is also VERY liberal (compared to his GOP brethren)

[wryter2000]

179. Oh, right

I don't get to vote for him, sadly.

[The Doctor.]

53. OMFG!!!!

You are sugesting that people be more 'conservative'?!!!

"Liberal... the new Conservative."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. Thanks for the advice, Captain Obvious.

[Clark2008]

84. I TRY to live that way

And, unlike most Americans, I'm miserable because I owe $1,000 in CCs - and cannot pay it off. I'm trying to find a balance - and my credit is good, so I keep going from O percent CC to O percent CC in a year - to pay off this debt.
Debt I incurred when I was newly divorced, with a child and no child support coming in - to pay shit - you know, like for a roof and food and medicine. Oh, yeah, I bought a futon ($148) rather than a ($$$$) couch to replace the one that got ruined when the roof leaked.

I like your advise, unfortunately, it's not always feasible. At least I have my home and some equity.

[Iterate]

94. Are you kidding?

I understand your point: never use plastic, minimize your consumer profile, live simply, never walk into a walmart or a shopping center. Disconnect from the consumerthink. Good idea, wish everyone would.

But believe me, when your plant closes and town is shattered, or you're in your second year of cancer therapy, you'll reach for the plastic just like everyone else. It's the social safety net, the only one you have.

[jdj]

173. so true, and we CAN do this.

I have so much faith in us.

If those motherfuckers want to come after us they will only fuck themselves, they are the ones that need all the shit. Even most of the upper middle class are only a couple generations out of poverty.

[high density]

8. Use brains when borrowing money...

...and you'll be all set.

[Bluebear]

10. What do you tell the person who got in over his head already?

This is horrible news for a lot of people.

[high density]

15. "You're fucked?"

I dunno. But I've never seen a bank force a person to take out a loan.

[Bluebear]

But I have seen people in this economy who are desparate

They had to take out a loan to put food on their family since their jobs are gone.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

24. same here.

[high density]

29. A large part of me cringes at the corporate welfare part of this

Another part of me thinks that so many people need to take more responsiblity when taking out loans. If I lost my job and didn't have money for food, I'd work at some lousy brainless job so that I could at least pay to put food in my mouth and a roof over my head.

[Bluebear]

33. Say you are 61, laid off, with no insurance and diabetes

You can hardly move becuase of your peripheral vascular disease. The medicines you put on your credit card to get you through until Medicaid kicks in are overwhelming and the side effects make your neuropathy worse.

Oh well, at least you have your home which was paid off last year.... oh wait, no you don't, becuase you no longer have a homestead exemption...

What brainless job would you suggest to pay off the bills you 'irresponsibly' incurred?

I am in favor or paying your debts and I do, but also realize that there are people for whom this will be unmitigated disaster.

[high density]

45. I'd say this country should have better a welfare/healthcare system

to address the core problem of why some people are getting too deep in debt. But, of course, tax cuts for the rich are more important than things like that.

[Lindacooks]

90. And that solves the immediate problem how??

You're not addressing the problem - you're just giving us rhetoric that doesn't mean anything.

[high density]

143. I'm not a politician

I'm just a poster on a message board. Bitch to somebody who can do something about it.

[Lindacooks]

148. I'm correcting your attitude towards people who have

serious money problems THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. And I'm 'bitching' to you (gee, what a misogynistic choice of word) because your attitude is appalling.

Now you're on ignore.

[lostnfound]

180. 50% of bankruptcies caused by medical bills..if you're sick & can't work

then what?

[Tweed]

188. The other 40% are caused by bankruptcies and job loss

[maxrandb]

201. AFLACK????!!

Sorry, couldn't resist. "If your hurt and miss work" AFLACK

[hiley]

51. that is it right there

because alot of people have to do that.
Will it go into affect in about six months or what ?

[JetCityLiberal]

61. Wow

does Wes Clark believe like you believe?

He won't get my vote if he does. Good luck finding even that brainless job.

JetCityLiberal

[high density]

142. Last I checked we lived in a capitalistic country

And when did I say that Wes Clark said what I said? I didn't, so stop implying dirty freeper-like shit like that.

[The Doctor.]

57. The son of one of my clients

Is a die-hard, pro-bush, dittohead.

He and his wife are 'disgusted' that people use 'welfare' that hard working professionals 'like themselves' pay for.

Here's the punchline;

He's having problems in his field because of the economy, and they are about to lose their house if they do not file for bankruptcy.

Ooops!

Too late!

So who proposed this legislation?
Is Bush going to sign it?

Hmmmm....

[shanti]

92. and there goes the housing market!

badda boom!

[Conservativesux]

97. Thank goodness for that !!!

[elehhhhna]

126. To file ASAP. Look into it. There are message bds & resources on the 'ne

to help you figure it out.

[Lindacooks]

89. OH, I see.

So when medical bills become overwhelming, you've lost your job, and no bank will look at you, what are you supposed to do?

Credit cards are the last resort for many Americans in Bush's economy. It's not about brains.

[wicket]

127. Over 50% of bankruptcies in the US are because of medical bills

NOT because of wild spending binges.

[wryter2000]

163. Easy to say

It is possible to live as frugally as possible and still not have enough money to meet basic needs.

[camby]

11. We all know of people who abused the bankruptcy laws...

but there in trying to stop the abuse, we've just made it more difficult for working families who might be forced into bankruptcy due to medical catastrophes. Shame on us.

[camby]

18. I just read the post about exceptions for medical expenses

I hope the protections are adequate.

[Bluebear]

20. As far as I read there is not a medical exemption

The Senate rejected 2 Dem proposals...

"Also rebuffed, 58-39, were two proposals focused on people whose significant medical expenses for illness force them to file for bankruptcy."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050303/ap_on_go_co/bankruptcy_45

[Mandate My Ass]

31. Only the rich and abortion clinic bombers are exempt

If you got sick or lost your job, the government has
decided that you are expendible and your home is fair
game for the loan sharks who charge upwards of 25%
interest while you try to keep your head above water.
Catastrophic illness or long-term unemployment is no
longer an excuse to escape personal responsibility.

Welcome to Bush's ownership society. You will own your
own street corner on which to panhandle if you are lucky.

[catzies]

158. The clinic bombers exemption pisses me off.

What it means is that some asshole can bomb a clinic and dodge restitution by filing for bankruptcy.

I followed the link upthread to senate.gov and specifically looked to see if that amendment made it into the final bill and it didn't.

[benburch]

19. Yes, like me...

I went bankrupt due to a quarter million in medical bills...

:(

[Bluebear]

36. Sorry, you should have been "more careful"

The compassion of this country is down the toilet. :(

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. Yes, we do....most of them were wealthy from the start and got...

...even wealthier when they got rid of their debts.

Tell me all about abusing bankruptcy laws.

[Digit]

193. I know of only one person personally who filed bankruptcy.

He had $80,000 in credit card debt. I had no idea this was going on.
It just got out of hand.
He has since dug himself out and is now making a very decent living.
It was not his intention to get in over his head and now he is doing very well.
He pays his credit card off every month now.

[Zuni]

12. where can I find out more about this law and it's ramifications?

[AnnitaR]

13. When does this go into effect???

Shit, shit, shit!!

My parents were just getting ready to file. They are living ONLY on their SS checks and are swamped with my dad's medical bills and the debt they had no choice but to run up while he was waiting to get on Disability. With the coming cuts in TennCare regarding prescriptions they will likely barely be able to keep their heads above water.

I'm hating this country more and more everyday!

[benburch]

17. Tell them to get to a lawyer TOMORROW.

It cannot take effect until signed.

[AnnitaR]

39. Thing is they can't afford the lawyer fees!

My mom is expecting a very very small inheritance from her sister who passed away last year. They just sold her house and the small amount that is left from that after they paid her sister's nursing home bill and reimbursed TennCare has to be split between 7 brothers/sisters (she was a widow w/ no children). So they are going to use that to pay for the lawyer to file. It's just that they have no choice but to wait til they get that money. The house sold about 3 weeks ago so hopefully it won't be long.

This sucks so bad, I wish I could help them. I'm single living on my own making $10 and hour so I am struggling myself.

I hope everyday that these fuckers burn in hell!

[teakee]

60. I'm waiting to file for a repo car that I gave back on my own because

of becoming disabled. And yeah, I filed before and was waiting till the end of this year(7 yrs). The first time it was because of a divorce, credit cards and having 3 babies to support. Now it is because I cannot work and am on SSDI, slowly paying the medical bills but not the car. No credit cards.

I wonder if the lenders still cannot touch federal disablity money?

[caledesi]

66. My question too. Can they "touch" your disability? nt

[teakee]

74. No, I don't think so.....

But I always had to prove what was in my checking. And by gosh, if I deposited cash from child support and couldn't prove it, lawyers collecting for medical bills would try and freeze the account. So, now I keep my kids' support out and just the SSDI and SSI (direct deposit)goes in the account so there is proof that is from the gov't.

They cannot touch your kids' SSI, and shouldn't be able to anyway because you have to account for those funds being spent on the kids. That's fine, but the gov't always thinks there was money left over. I would love to invite them to stay a week with us. :eyes:

[benburch]

67. Whatever it takes.

Sell something. Borrow from a neighbor. Just get them in under the wire.

Once they get to the lawyer, he can stop any payments they might have to make, and usually this covers his fees.

[elehhhhna]

128. Attorneys will take payments (as long as it's paid off by the hearing date

which usually takes a few months). Creditors must stop contact the day the BK's filed. Shop a lawyer--you shouldn't pay more than 1200 bucks for this and I downloaded & did one myself off an internet site for 75 bucks plus 200 in filing fees. I would not advise one to attempt this without some legal background and advice.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

132. When I filed for bankruptcy

(after an unstoppable snowball of events), my attorney took a $100 "downpayment" on his fee to handle calls from creditors.

He would not actually file, though, until I could pay the rest of the fees, because otherwise what I owed him would get wiped out in the bankruptcy proceedings.

[elehhhhna]

140. They all have their own deals--and Legal Svcs for the indigent might

be worth talking to, as well...

[grasswire]

151. maybe.....

...you can get enough info to do the filing yourself. There are kits that tell you how. You might pay $50 for the materials, but that's sure cheaper than a lawyer, and way cheaper than not being able to file at all.

[wryter2000]

166. Legal Aid

See if they have a Legal Aid society that can help them for free. Also, around here we used to have a program called "Lawyers in the Library," where attorneys spend time in libraries helping people for free. Contact the bar association to find out about free legal help.

Otherwise, they'll have to do the paperwork themselves. They can do that with the help of books.

[Bluebear]

21. "Sorry, no one forced them to borrow that money"

That will be the GOP response.

[teakee]

68. Anyone hear those tapes of those Enron people talking about

bilking the people in California on the CBS news tonight? Nasty bast*sds. Didn't Kenny Lay file bankruptcy?

[Just Me]

23. At least they'll still have the "freedom" to live in a tent rather than,..

,...a jail cell.

Geez. I'm sorry. I was trying to be stupid and sarcastic but,...what's happening to your parents is just plain cruel.

:cry:

I don't hate this country,...I just hate the "lawmakers" that are determined to serve corporacrats over the American people.

[Conservativesux]

98. Next on the Twilight Zone: Debtors' Prisons Return......

..and with them, more cheap labor for corporate BushAmerika.

[AlienGirl]

99. I expect a form of indentured servitude, sold as "corporate citizenship"

You will be a citizen of the corporation that owns your debt, which you also work for, and which will encourage your brand-loyalty. If you're a Pepsi citizen, you'll work for Pepsi, live in a Pepsi-owned building, owe your major debts to Pepsi's banks, and...of course...drink Pepsi. It will be in *your* best interest to promote the company, and in return the company will tell you it's looking out for you...

Tucker

[HeeBGBz]

117. Debtors conscription?

They will "forgive" your debt, if you join the military.

I wouldn't put it past them.

[lostnfound]

183. That's right..and your kids will go to Pepsi schools..

if they are lucky to get to go to school at all.

This will initially be sold as a compassionate solution to the problem of the unemployed / homeless / working poor.

[liberalhistorian]

28. FUCK!

That's just fucking UNBELIEVABLE that they wouldn't at least pass an exception for medical expenses, especially since they have the best and greatest health insurance in the fucking WORLD courtesy of the very taxpayers who do NOT have that luxury and who can be totally ruined by one major illness.

Shit, if you get cancer you might as well just fucking die.

[SammyWinstonJack]

152. I think that is what pisses me off the most.

These slime ball Congress critters have as you stated, the best and greatest health insurance courtesy(forced) of the taxpayers, millions of whom can't afford health insurance for themselves and their families. I for one am sick of paying for their health insurance when they couldn't care less about the average American's health care.

[Digit]

194. Same here!

They think we are spending our money on movies, vacations, cars, and whatnot.
Mine goes for:
Food (never fast food, never eating out) I buy on sale
Utilities (wash w/cold water)
My car is old, so no car payments.
Insurance (only on car and home)
No health insurance
I receive no magazines, no newspapers
I buy clothes used, when I have the money.
No movie channels.
I don't rent movies.
Haircuts 5.99
Never had a manicure or pedicure although I would love to.
No vacations for the past 20 years
My couch is from 1978!

They have no idea people have to live this way.

[serryjw]

55. look into transferring your parents

home into your name before it is to late.

[ultraist]

69. Or put the home into a trust or don't file bankruptcy!

My state does not seize the home for unpaid medical or credit card bills. You can lose your home if you don't pay the mortgage or don't pay taxes.

[serryjw]

72. My point was

with the medical bills her parents have and the new bill passing they may not be able to save the home unless they no longer OWN it!

[ultraist]

91. I see your point

But I was also pointing out that if they were to lose their home by filing, they should not file and not pay the medical bills. I don't think they will seize your home for unpaid medical in any state, but I may be mistaken.

[atre]

105. In most states, they can....

In most states, the exempt property statutes provide that your homestead is exempt up to a certain dollar amount (usually something around $10,000). That means that if a lien creditor executes on your house, the house is sold at a foreclosure sale and the debtor gets to keep $10,000 from the proceeds.

There are, however, some states that provide greater protection. Texas, for example, uses a geographic limitation on the homestead exemption. If your acreage is less than a certain size, the homestead is completely exempt from execution by creditors.

[elehhhhna]

129. Every state has a certain set homestead exemption amount...

FL & TX-unlimited. For those of you who are worried, look up your state and stop tripping. Information is your friend. If you're thinking about filing, DO IT NOW.

[atre]

190. Minor correction

Texas and Florida don't have unlimited homestead exemptions; rather, they are geographic limitations rather than value limitations (like the vast majority of other states). In Texas, for example, the exemption is for 2 acres in an urban area and 10 acres in a rural area (or something close to those figures); thus, the homestead exemption protects the residence from the claims of creditors without regard to value, but limited only to a certain acreage.

[sybylla]

150. My parents are planning to do just that - transfer assets or put them in

a trust so they can't be taken away if they have trouble with medical bills. My dad can't get insurance and my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer last year so she's out now too. They are two or three years away from medicare and really have no choice.

And my state supposedly has prohibitions on taking homes to pay for medical bills too, but that hasn't stopped it from happening in some circumstances. I just read not too long ago where someone was investigating how this was happening more an more with such a prohibition in place.

Don't count on the law to protect you from creditors. There are loopholes everywhere you look. My parents had to file bankruptcy 25 years ago to protect themselves from a business creditor who found their way around the corporate protections to go after my parents personal assets. And don't think a religious medical institution has any more scruples than a corporation. They are often run by the same corporate whores.

[atre]

189. The best pre-bankruptcy advice you can get is...

Locate your parents' state's exemption scheme, and find out whether they allow persons to elect to use the federal exemption scheme. Based on that, have your parents convert as much non-exempt property into exempt property. Exploiting the exemption scheme alone is not sufficient grounds for a finding of fraud; usually, such conversion will be respected.

Don't let them go overboard, though, exempting everything they own, because some circuits (most notably the 8th) treat that as extrinsic evidence of fraud.

[sybylla]

198. my parents are considering this years before any possibility of bankruptcy

Thus, none of that should matter as the transfers would be considered to have taken place long before a bankruptcy action would take place. Additionally, they won't be doing this without the advice of a financial advisor and an attorney, which is what everyone should do.

Lastly, as children, it would be very easy to make all of these asset transfers appear to be purchases upon which there are liens. Not much to take away or attach there. Then it becomes a battle between the bank and the debtee as to who owns the property and has a right to it. I'd stake my odds on the bank winning that one.

[atre]

104. Note: Do not follow this guy's advice!!!!

If your parents put their home in your name, not only with the bankruptcy trustee be able to avoid that transfer and claim the home as property of the banktruptcy estate, the transfer may also be a grounds for denying your parents global discharge. That means that your parents go through the bankruptcy process, losing all of their nonexempt property, but still get no relief from the claims of creditors. Not good! It also might not even be necessary, depending on your state's exempt property statute (and whether your state is one of the 20 that has opted into allowing the federal scheme as an alternative).

Usually effective dates of bills start at the next calendar year. I would imagine that this won't take effect for at least a few months. Have them file ASAP.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

134. Right, when I filed

I had to state whether I'd transferred any assets to another person within the past year.

[sybylla]

154. One option might be to transfer assets and not file bankruptcy

But you should definitely consult with a lawyer on how best to protect your parents if they are already at the point of needing to file.

[atre]

187. That's not all that great of an option either

Every state has adopted the Uniform Fraudulent Transfers Act, which would allow creditors to avoid the transfers done for the purpose of delaying, defrauding, or hindering creditors. If you want to keep the house in the family, there is one way of doing so. Since the purchaser is usualy protected as long as he gives "reasonably equivalent value," you can give such value for the house and the house would not be subject to the claims of the creditors. But even that probably isn't wise because then your parents would lose the benefit of the homestead exemption.

[tjwash]

14. Of course there is a shitload of loopholes for rich people built in.

Al Franken was talking about it on AAR this morning.

[Toucano]

22. It looks like we put up a good fight.

Each of these amendments was defeated.

Corzine Amdt. No. 32; To preserve existing bankruptcy protections for individuals experiencing economic distress as caregivers to ill or disabled family members.

Kennedy Amdt. No. 29; To provide protection for medical debt homeowners.

Kennedy Amdt. No. 28.; To exempt debtors whose financial problems were caused by serious medical problems from means testing.

Akaka Amdt. No. 15; To require enhanced disclosure to consumers regarding the consequences of making only minimum required payments in the repayment of credit card debt, and for other purposes.

Feingold Amdt. No. 17.; To provide a homestead floor for the elderly.

Durbin Amdt. No. 16, As Modified.; To protect servicemembers and veterans from means testing in bankruptcy, to disallow certain claims by lenders charging usurious interest rates to servicemembers, and to allow servicemembers to exempt property based on the law of the State of their premilitary residence.

[PA Democrat]

34. The fact that these amendments failed speaks volumes

Profits over compassion. According to Frontline, credit card companies made a record $30 billion last year.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/etc/synopsis.html

[Toucano]

49. Elizabeth Warren is brilliant.

I read he book last summer about "Two-Income Trap".

I gave it to my newly elected State Rep., too.

[shanti]

93. oh fuck them

for this payback to the corporate masters! :grr: that's all it is.

[Fescue4u]

26. Thats terrible news

truly truly bad

[Swamp Rat]

27. What about student loans? n/t

[benburch]

30. I think those were exempted from bankruptcy previously.

And I know they didn't change THAT!

[Swamp Rat]

35. When did they do that?

I'm fucked anyway... If I didn't have family, I would have died in the street already with disabilities Social Security REFUSES to recognize. No medical help for me, no doctors, no medication. I may have to leave the country... somehow. :(

[benburch]

48. When I filed in '96 my lawyer mentioned that to me.

But I do not know when they did it.

[atre]

102. Not "exempted"

The student loan creditor is entitled just like other creditors to reach the debtor's assets in bankruptcy if they can. Rather, it is more appropriate to say that student loans are one of the 19 (and now 20, I guess) nondischargeable debts provided in 11 U.S.C. Section 523.

Anyone consider why now? It seems plausible that the credit card companies are expecting a tremendous recession/depression soon, followed by a flurry of bankruptcy petition filings. Thus, they felt they needed to act now to get this added protection under the Bankruptcy Code. Anyone else have any ideas about this?

[Toucano]

32. I'm pretty sure they could never be discharged before reform.

Child support payments can also not be discharged under existing law.

[atre]

103. Along with alimony, taxes, loans to pay taxes, DWI personal injury claims,

along with a host of others, they are nondischargeable under Section 523 of the Bankruptcy Code.

[Not_Giving_Up]

37. So, in other words...

We know that the economy blows and people are being forced to take jobs that offer no benefits (temporary or contract positions). When these people get sick, they can't afford to go to a doctor, so they wait until it's really bad, and they go to an ER. The ER send them a bill for an obnoxious amount of money, which they can't pay. After all, if they could afford to pay that bill, they could afford to pay for insurance. Now, we'll make it tougher than ever for them to get out of paying the bill.

I'm speaking from experience here. I got a bill for $1300 from an ER that I had to go to because I was having a severe asthma attack and couldn't breathe. I was also billed separate company for the physician and a chest x-ray. I was working contract (temp) at the same company for more than a year with no benefits. The bill collectors call on a regular basis, and lately, have been sure to point out that I know that this is going on my credit report. Oh well, I'm not taking food out of the mouths of my children to pay this bill. I have a very good shot at a much better paying job. If I get the job, I'll pay the bills, I'll be able to without a problem. Until then, I support a family of four on what I make. Yes, I have insurance now, but it's fairly pathetic. They are trying to get out of paying for an initial visit to a new doctor, and are trying to make me pay $115 for it, even though they specifically state on their website that pre-existing conditions are those which were treated or diagnosed in the six months preceding coverage. I was not treated for anything within that time period. I am fighting this tooth and nail.

[elehhhhna]

135. Complain about that 115 dollars to the State Insurance Board.

That always gets the insurers attention.

[wryter2000]

167. And it gets worse

I have excellent health insurance. Excellent! And yet, when it looked as if my husband might need a nursing home, I discovered we weren't covered. Nada, zip. My only covered option was for hospice care at home. If he'd lingered for months, I don't know how I would have kept my job. And that would have been the end of both of us.

I found myself relieved that he died in the hospital before he could be sent home. And that sure fucks with my head, I can tell you. I was glad my husband died quickly.

[underseasurveyor]

195. Wryter that absolutely tears my heart out for you.

My first husband even though we had been separated for years before he died was still my very good friend when he passed in 1998. I still sometimes wish that he could had lived just one more day or one more hour even, just to talk, to hear his voice a little bit longer before the final good bye.

Now to hear you or anybody say they will be or are relieved their spouse or loved one died quickly when every last second is precious, wrenches my guts in agony and heart ache for you and now many others will be faced with this same mind fuck.

Wryter, omg-omg-omg my heart goes out to you my dear I wish I could put in words how much it does. :hug: :hug: :cry: :hug: :hug:


Sickening! This is all so sickening. I think I have just been made acutely aware of where my thresh-hold lies:nuke:

[wryter2000]

199. Thank you

It's pathetic, really, how little help we get in this country with life's tragedies. How can we call ourselves civilized when we have to choose between giving a dying loved one the best possible last hours and keeping afloat financially?

I just console myself by knowing that his death was nothing I had any control over. He was meant to die that morning, and he would have died no matter what he did.

[BBradley]

41. Can someone explain to me what this law does?

Does it keep someone from filing for bankruptcy completely, or does it exempt certain debt from being erased? To whom does this law apply, and when does it take effect? Who authored/sponsored the bill, and which Democrats voted in favor of it?

[Toucano]

47. In a nutshell

More people are going to be unable to discharge a substantial portion of debt that they used to be able to discharge by filing bankruptcy.

These people will be forced into Chapter 13 instead of Chapter 7.

Contrary to this thread, I don't think the final vote has been held. I could be wrong, but I read that Kennedy is going to try to attach an amendment to raise the minimum wage tomorrow. His amendment will probably be defeated along party lines.

When it passes, and it will - we simply don't have the votes - the president will sign it and it takes effect in (I think) 60 days.

[madmark]

76. Attached is a letter I sent to my senator describing some of the bills

effects. I work in the area so I may be able to make more substantive comments on it than others. If anybody wants to forward it (or portions) to their congressmen feel free:


Dear Senator McCain,

I am one of your constituents and have practiced bankruptcy law for the past 12 years here in Phoenix. Before you vote to pass the bankruptcy bill could you please do two things: 1)Read this bill, and 2) Speak to at least one of Arizona's bankruptcy judges (preferably a republican one so that they have more credibility in your eyes) about the bill's merits. If you can still vote for the bill after you have read it and spoken to one of our judges then you have at least done the bare mininum diligence that this decision requires. I suspect though if you actually read the bill and speak to one of our judges about it (not necessarily in that order) you will be unable to vote for it because it is in effect an economic attack on the middle class and will render the bankruptcy courts dysfunctional. I know that may sound like hyperbole but I honestly do not think I am overstating the matter.

In my practice approximately 5% of the bankruptcy cases I see could be characterized as abusive or involving lack of personal responsibility. The balance are caused by the following in descending order: divorce, illness, injury, job layoffs, and entrepreneurial failure. Even Republican Senators during this debate have already described the bill as being "harsh" when applying it to members of the military. Just as the Senate does not think this harsh bill should apply to the military why would they want it to apply to the divorced, ill, injured, layed off and the entrepreneurs who fuel our economy, take the risks that have to be taken for growth to ever occur, and failed in this noble attempt.

I will preview two important provisions in the Bil. The Bill "means tests" the ability of people to file Chapter 7 liquidations and forces everyone except the lower middle class with one income (2 incomes will be too much), the impoverished, and the extremely wealthy to file a Chapter 13 wage earner plan bankruptcy instead of a Chapter 7 liquidation. The Bill also requires that debtor's lawyers assume liability for the accuracy of the Debtors' representations of their financial condition set forth in their bankruptcy schedules and statement of financial affairs. Chapter 13's administrative transaction costs are three to four times greater than Chapter 7's. Chapter 13's will require a monthly payment stream for 3 to 5 years whether or not there really is any disposable income from which this payment can be made. Chapter 13's do not provide a debt discharge until the conclusion of the 3 to 5 years and credit markets refuse access to these debtors prior to receipt of the discharge. In Chapter 7's the discharge order comes in approximately 4 to 5 months and credit markets (ie. car lenders) will deal with debtors (albeit at a higher rate) after the receipt of the discharge. Chapter 13's plan currently have a high failure rate (ie. most debtors default on their Chapter 13 plan payments and never get their discharge). No lawyers will represent Debtors with the new liability provisions. Without lawyers the already high Chapter 13 failure rate will skyrocket. The net effect is hundreds of thousands/millions of American middle class people (the divorced, ill, injured, layed off, and failed entrepreneurs) will no longer get discharges and no longer be able to function as productive members of the American economy. All this at time when we are likely looking at a coming housing bubble correction, interest rate spike (accelarated by government budget and trade deficts), and dollar sell off.

And for what? I understand that MBNA and other credit card issuers have contributed a great deal to Senators for the additional leverage on Debtors that this bill will give them but is that enough to vote for a bill that is harmful to the interests of the American economy and its middle class.

There are other bad things in the bill and if your office would to discuss them further feel free to correspond to arrange the same. Thank you for your time considering this matter.

[sarahlee]

95. Everyone reading this

needs to take the points in your letter and write at least two letters to the editor - Start calling into those talk radio shows.

And of course write and call the reps.

[NMDemDist2]

118. i think I have a 2:30 appt with you today (thurs)

:evilgrin:

welcome to DU!! :hi:

[Mandate My Ass]

59. For weeks I've been reading about this bill and

from what I understand is that for previously responsible
middle-class, wage earners who have found themselves in a
medical emergency or without a job for a protracted
period of time, rhey will have to submit to an expensive
means test to determine whether they will be able to dis-
charge their debt and the outcome is highly unlikely.

Meanwhile rich property holders will still be able to put
their properties in trust beyond the court's orcredit card
company's reach and abortion clinic bombers will be able to
declare bankruptcy to avoid paying damages for their crimes.

[Bluebear]

43. 125,000 bankruptcies a year due to "distressed caregivers"

Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., said the Corzine measure was "incredibly unjustified" because the bill makes allowances for expenses related to family care-giving under the means test. Corzine argued that around 125,000 bankruptcy filers each year are "distressed caregivers."

"We ought to protect them," Corzine said.

The measure was defeated on a 60-37 vote.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B918D3A95%2DF9F1%2D45BC%2D89D0%2D74980384B784%7D&dist=rss&siteid=mktw

==

So if your spouse or elderly parent needs home care recovering from a stroke, don't you dare take care of them at home. Check them into some cheap facility and get a job you lazy libby. Quit being irresponsible!

[Zenlitened]

50. It's not a done deal yet. This was a vote to move it out of committee,

From the yahoo link a few posts up...

Now the bankruptcy bill is back on the Senate floor, with debate ongoing this week and possibly next. Opposition Democrats plan to offer a slew of amendments, including Schumer's "poison pill" --as dubbed by social conservatives-- aimed at either killing the bill or making it more equitable

[ArchTeryx]

52. Sources?

Where exactly is this news coming from? And how, precisely, did this bill 'pass'? Last I heard, the Senate was still voting on a slew of amendments and the Democrats kept coming up with more, even if they were shot down.

I can't find a single news source that says it passed, as of yet. All say they're still voting on amendments.

And even if it did pass the full Senate, it still has to be taken up by the House. (Which, of course, it will, and I realize that in that chamber Democrats have far, far less sway. They're virtually ignored. But still, it isn't law YET).

-- ArchTeryx

[Bluebear]

54. I am looking too

No final passage showing on news services yet. The exemptions that were shot down are very telling. Biden voted with the Republicans on saying no to exemptions for seniors, caregivers, etc. Scumbag.

[AnnitaR]

Biden can kiss my fat ass!

I am getting sick and tired of hearing about yet another way this "Dem" is helping Bushco screw us over! I will vow now that he and some of the other so-called Dems like him will never get my vote if they choose to run for President in 08!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

63. Can we get 41 votes to fillibuster?

[madmark]

101. I sent this letter to Kennedy asking him to try to organize one but after

you subtract the MBNA dems (Biden et al) is it less than 41?

Dear Senator Kennedy,

I apologize for being a non-constituent taking up your time but I wanted to be heard on the bankruptcy bill. I am concerned that my two republican senators maybe unresponsive and its my understanding that you have taken the lead opposing what is in my view awful legislation.

I work as a bankruptcy practitioner and below is a letter I sent my senators setting forth some of my substantive concerns about the bill. I am attaching it for any use you feel fit. The bill is bad enough, and its effects will be so sweeping, immediate, and dire for the middle class, that I believe this bill may merit a filibuster and I do not think I am overstating the matter. Please consider using this device to challenge the bill or at least to put some sunlight on it (the media has done almost nothing as to its negative consequences). Thank you for your consideration of this matter. The letter with the substantive points is as follows:

Dear Senator McCain,

I am one of your constituents and have practiced bankruptcy law for the past 12 years here in Phoenix. Before you vote to pass the bankruptcy bill could you please do two things: 1)Read this bill, and 2) Speak to at least one of Arizona's bankruptcy judges (preferably a republican one so that they have more credibility in your eyes) about the bill's merits. If you can still vote for the bill after you have read it and spoken to one of our judges then you have at least done the bare mininum diligence that this decision requires. I suspect though if you actually read the bill and speak to one of our judges about it (not necessarily in that order) you will be unable to vote for it because it is in effect an economic attack on the middle class and will render the bankruptcy courts dysfunctional. I know that may sound like hyperbole but I honestly do not think I am overstating the matter.

In my practice approximately 5% of the bankruptcy cases I see could be characterized as abusive or involving lack of personal responsibility. The balance are caused by the following in descending order: divorce, illness, injury, job layoffs, and entrepreneurial failure. Even Republican Senators during this debate have already described the bill as being "harsh" when applying it to members of the military. Just as the Senate does not think this harsh bill should apply to the military why would they want it to apply to the divorced, ill, injured, layed off and the entrepreneurs who fuel our economy, take the risks that have to be taken for growth to ever occur, and failed in this noble attempt.

I will preview two important provisions in the Bil. The Bill "means tests" the ability of people to file Chapter 7 liquidations and forces everyone except the lower middle class with one income (2 incomes will be too much), the impoverished, and the extremely wealthy to file a Chapter 13 wage earner plan bankruptcy instead of a Chapter 7 liquidation. The Bill also requires that debtor's lawyers assume liability for the accuracy of the Debtors' representations of their financial condition set forth in their bankruptcy schedules and statement of financial affairs. Chapter 13's administrative transaction costs are three to four times greater than Chapter 7's. Chapter 13's will require a monthly payment stream for 3 to 5 years whether or not there really is any disposable income from which this payment can be made. Chapter 13's do not provide a debt discharge until the conclusion of the 3 to 5 years and credit markets refuse access to these debtors prior to receipt of the discharge. In Chapter 7's the discharge order comes in approximately 4 to 5 months and credit markets (ie. car lenders) will deal with debtors (albeit at a higher rate) after the receipt of the discharge. Chapter 13's plan currently have a high failure rate (ie. most debtors default on their Chapter 13 plan payments and never get their discharge). No lawyers will represent Debtors with the new liability provisions. Without lawyers the already high Chapter 13 failure rate will skyrocket. The net effect is hundreds of thousands/millions of American middle class people (the divorced, ill, injured, layed off, and failed entrepreneurs) will no longer get discharges and no longer be able to function as productive members of the American economy. All this at time when we are likely looking at a coming housing bubble correction, interest rate spike (accelarated by government budget and trade deficts), and dollar sell off.

And for what? I understand that MBNA and other credit card issuers have contributed a great deal to Senators for the additional leverage on Debtors that this bill will give them but is that enough to vote for a bill that is harmful to the interests of the American economy and its middle class.

There are other bad things in the bill and if your office would to discuss them further feel free to correspond to arrange the same. Thank you for your time considering this matter.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

174. Each amendment is getting 39-43 votes.

I don't know if we can get 41 on our side in the end. It will be close.

[quinnox]

62. apparently there is still debate left for this bill

Not passed yet.

But anyway, credit cards are evil, cut up your credit cards unless you always pay the full amount due every month.

My friend got in trouble with using them too much and now is paying them off slowly but it is a huge pain to have credit card debt.

Also, anyone who has student loans is on the hook for life. Unfortunately I speak from experience, they changed it during the Clinton years to make it nearly impossible to discharge student loan debt.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

64. What about social security privatized accounts?

(if and when they are created). I believe that social security payments now are federally exempted from being reachable by creditors in a bankruptcy. But what would happen if one's entire safety net suddenly became their privately owned fund, such that they could will it to their heirs? Would the bankruptcy trustee be able to reach it? Would the debtor be able to discharge all debts in a Chapter 7 even if they had thousands invested in the stock market as part of their private investment account?

[salvorhardin]

70. List of traitors

Baucus (D-MT)
Biden (D-DE)
Byrd (D-WV)
Carper (D-DE)
Conrad (D-ND)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Johnson (D-SD)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Dayton (D-MN) (not voting)
Inouye (D-HI) (not voting)

[flyarm]

100. we must all write and tell them we consider them traitors

to our nation and to the american people!! and send the list to all like minded people and ask them to do the same..and then start looking in your state for people to run against these traitors..now!@
i know i would rather die than vote for nelson of fla..he has voted with repubs consistantly..and he has lost my vote forever!

i never liked him or trusted him..and no less so..he is giving the repubs a b.j.!!

fly

[Petrushka]

124. Byrd??????? Unbelievable!!!!!!! (n/t)

[madmark]

157. Yeah that surprised me too

[Cuban_Liberal]

147. PLEASE NOTE: JOE LIEBERMAN IS NOT ON THIS LIST

Next time the temptation to flame him arises, take a deep breath and remember this solid, progressive, pro-consumer vote.

[Jacobin]

172. The list is not complete

My recollection is that he co-sponsored the damn thing back when it first started.

The stink is not off Holy Joe on this one yet.

[Padraig18]

177. Did he vote for it?

That's the only relevant question.

[DancingBear]

184. "Don't worry", Joe said to George, "I gotta make it look good"

"I still got a few people fooled."

"He-he-he."

[Jacobin]

171. Mary Landrieu didn't defect? GREAT news

I emailed her a long request to simply READ the bill and ASK ONE bankruptcy judge what they thought.

Hoping she stays with us on this one, because I thought she had jumped ship.

[ComerPerro]

71. Im sure corporations can still file for bankruptcy

[Media_Lies_Daily]

79. Wonderful. I feel so good for them.

[98geoduck]

82. There is a loophole that a few Dems wanted to close, but no dice.

[elehhhhna]

137. Yes and they get to shop the courts...

[elehhhhna]

141. Yep-- The Enrons still get the go Judge Shoppping for their Bankruptcies:

March 3, 2005, 12:03AM

Bankruptcy bill losing Enron link
Cornyn taking out measure on 'judge shopping'
By GEBE MARTINEZ
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Washington Bureau
RESOURCES
• Complete coverage: See more stories and resources on the 79th Texas Legislature from the Houston Chronicle.

WASHINGTON - A measure stemming from the collapse of Enron that would prevent a company from filing for bankruptcy far from its headquarters is likely to be dropped in the face of fierce Senate opposition.


Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, the bill's chief sponsor, said Wednesday that his party leaders want the Enron-related language kept out of a pending bankruptcy overhaul bill.

They feared inclusion could poison the chances of passing the legislation-tightening rules on bankruptcy filings.

[AnnitaR]

73. Thank god this hasn't passed yet!

I am sitting my parents down tomorrow and seeing how fast they can file.

The thing that sucks most is that the credit card debt they have consists entirely of living expenses during the long time that it took for my dad to get his disability! They aren't filing because they ran up their credit cards buying big screen tvs, etc. They had no choice but to use their cards for groceries, gas, etc. My dad who's 70 was from the "old school" all of his life (until he got sick) pay as you go. They never even had a credit card until about six months before his heart attack. They only got one then because they were going on vacation and didn't want to carry cash this time. They had no choice but to incur the credit card debt to live on.

Those two cards combined with all of my dads medical bills sunk them. My dad is a proud man and he is devasted to even be considering filing.

[oneold1-4u]

83. Nowhere else to turn

I continued to pay for medical care and prescriptions for three years with earnings and credit cards until I was taking so much meds and still in so much pain that I could no longer work at all. My Drs. (4) gave me papers for disability but it took another 10 months and then the government makes you eat the first six months you are considered disabled! Four months of back payment after lawyer's 25% wouldn't cover even 3 months past med and presc. costs. I tried to work some as a disabled but that just set all creditors on anything earned and it became more fruitless. Friend helped me to file (doing papers) and it brought all credit duns to a halt. It was a blessing and what was left to me wasn't much, but it was mine and I moved on.
I did not have to file since SS disability was my source of income and cannot be attached for debts. Most Drs., clinics, hospitals, and all pharmacies require payment or absolute proof of complete insurance coverage so what else is there but credit cards?

[elehhhhna]

138. Tell Dad it's okay--he did NOT create that situation.

Do y'all see Donald Trump hanging his head head over his multiple busines bankruptcies? Hell no. Its' the sysytem. Use it or it'll use you.

[Califooyah Operative]

75. Amendments for the poor/needy-rejected, loop holes for the rich - ok'd. nt

[Toucano]

85. "Where is the fairness?" - Sen. Kennedy n/t

[madmark]

96. I just sent this to Kennedy asking for a filibuster

Dear Senator Kennedy,

I apologize for being a non-constituent taking up your time but I wanted to be heard on the bankruptcy bill. I am concerned that my two republican senators maybe unresponsive and its my understanding that you have taken the lead opposing what is in my view awful legislation.

I work as a bankruptcy practitioner and below is a letter I sent my senators setting forth some of my substantive concerns about the bill. I am attaching it for any use you feel fit. The bill is bad enough, and its effects will be so sweeping, immediate, and dire for the middle class, that I believe this bill may merit a filibuster and I do not think I am overstating the matter. Please consider using this device to challenge the bill or at least to put some sunlight on it (the media has done almost nothing as to its negative consequences). Thank you for your consideration of this matter. The letter with the substantive points is as follows:

Dear Senator McCain,

I am one of your constituents and have practiced bankruptcy law for the past 12 years here in Phoenix. Before you vote to pass the bankruptcy bill could you please do two things: 1)Read this bill, and 2) Speak to at least one of Arizona's bankruptcy judges (preferably a republican one so that they have more credibility in your eyes) about the bill's merits. If you can still vote for the bill after you have read it and spoken to one of our judges then you have at least done the bare mininum diligence that this decision requires. I suspect though if you actually read the bill and speak to one of our judges about it (not necessarily in that order) you will be unable to vote for it because it is in effect an economic attack on the middle class and will render the bankruptcy courts dysfunctional. I know that may sound like hyperbole but I honestly do not think I am overstating the matter.

In my practice approximately 5% of the bankruptcy cases I see could be characterized as abusive or involving lack of personal responsibility. The balance are caused by the following in descending order: divorce, illness, injury, job layoffs, and entrepreneurial failure. Even Republican Senators during this debate have already described the bill as being "harsh" when applying it to members of the military. Just as the Senate does not think this harsh bill should apply to the military why would they want it to apply to the divorced, ill, injured, layed off and the entrepreneurs who fuel our economy, take the risks that have to be taken for growth to ever occur, and failed in this noble attempt.

I will preview two important provisions in the Bil. The Bill "means tests" the ability of people to file Chapter 7 liquidations and forces everyone except the lower middle class with one income (2 incomes will be too much), the impoverished, and the extremely wealthy to file a Chapter 13 wage earner plan bankruptcy instead of a Chapter 7 liquidation. The Bill also requires that debtor's lawyers assume liability for the accuracy of the Debtors' representations of their financial condition set forth in their bankruptcy schedules and statement of financial affairs. Chapter 13's administrative transaction costs are three to four times greater than Chapter 7's. Chapter 13's will require a monthly payment stream for 3 to 5 years whether or not there really is any disposable income from which this payment can be made. Chapter 13's do not provide a debt discharge until the conclusion of the 3 to 5 years and credit markets refuse access to these debtors prior to receipt of the discharge. In Chapter 7's the discharge order comes in approximately 4 to 5 months and credit markets (ie. car lenders) will deal with debtors (albeit at a higher rate) after the receipt of the discharge. Chapter 13's plan currently have a high failure rate (ie. most debtors default on their Chapter 13 plan payments and never get their discharge). No lawyers will represent Debtors with the new liability provisions. Without lawyers the already high Chapter 13 failure rate will skyrocket. The net effect is hundreds of thousands/millions of American middle class people (the divorced, ill, injured, layed off, and failed entrepreneurs) will no longer get discharges and no longer be able to function as productive members of the American economy. All this at time when we are likely looking at a coming housing bubble correction, interest rate spike (accelarated by government budget and trade deficts), and dollar sell off.

And for what? I understand that MBNA and other credit card issuers have contributed a great deal to Senators for the additional leverage on Debtors that this bill will give them but is that enough to vote for a bill that is harmful to the interests of the American economy and its middle class.

There are other bad things in the bill and if your office would to discuss them further feel free to correspond to arrange the same. Thank you for your time considering this matter.

[oneold1-4u]

80. Not a law YET

This will take some time for passing if it does, so if anyone is in trouble now, get busy. There are people who will do a good job of putting your bankruptcy together for you for under $100 if you get everything together for them. Borrow the money for all your bankruptcy costs! All outstanding bills and credit cards accounts. (should be in arrears) A list of all assets of any value (and don't try to give much away). You may keep your home, furniture, and car but make agreements to continue payments on them and they must be listed. If your assets including car, house, RV, summer or winter retreat cabin, and yacht might equal near your debts, you better forget it. Unless you are a millionaire with a million and a quarter debt, and can show that all those assets are necessary for your earning endeavors you can't keep it all.

[madmark]

81. I want ed to post this on the main part of the thread do people

would see it. If this is a rule violation I apologize to the moderators. Attached is a letter I sent to my Senator. I work in the area so it may be more substantive than others can be. Feel free to forward it (or portions) to your congress person:

Dear Senator McCain,

I am one of your constituents and have practiced bankruptcy law for the past 12 years here in Phoenix. Before you vote to pass the bankruptcy bill could you please do two things: 1)Read this bill, and 2) Speak to at least one of Arizona's bankruptcy judges (preferably a republican one so that they have more credibility in your eyes) about the bill's merits. If you can still vote for the bill after you have read it and spoken to one of our judges then you have at least done the bare mininum diligence that this decision requires. I suspect though if you actually read the bill and speak to one of our judges about it (not necessarily in that order) you will be unable to vote for it because it is in effect an economic attack on the middle class and will render the bankruptcy courts dysfunctional. I know that may sound like hyperbole but I honestly do not think I am overstating the matter.

In my practice approximately 5% of the bankruptcy cases I see could be characterized as abusive or involving lack of personal responsibility. The balance are caused by the following in descending order: divorce, illness, injury, job layoffs, and entrepreneurial failure. Even Republican Senators during this debate have already described the bill as being "harsh" when applying it to members of the military. Just as the Senate does not think this harsh bill should apply to the military why would they want it to apply to the divorced, ill, injured, layed off and the entrepreneurs who fuel our economy, take the risks that have to be taken for growth to ever occur, and failed in this noble attempt.

I will preview two important provisions in the Bil. The Bill "means tests" the ability of people to file Chapter 7 liquidations and forces everyone except the lower middle class with one income (2 incomes will be too much), the impoverished, and the extremely wealthy to file a Chapter 13 wage earner plan bankruptcy instead of a Chapter 7 liquidation. The Bill also requires that debtor's lawyers assume liability for the accuracy of the Debtors' representations of their financial condition set forth in their bankruptcy schedules and statement of financial affairs. Chapter 13's administrative transaction costs are three to four times greater than Chapter 7's. Chapter 13's will require a monthly payment stream for 3 to 5 years whether or not there really is any disposable income from which this payment can be made. Chapter 13's do not provide a debt discharge until the conclusion of the 3 to 5 years and credit markets refuse access to these debtors prior to receipt of the discharge. In Chapter 7's the discharge order comes in approximately 4 to 5 months and credit markets (ie. car lenders) will deal with debtors (albeit at a higher rate) after the receipt of the discharge. Chapter 13's plan currently have a high failure rate (ie. most debtors default on their Chapter 13 plan payments and never get their discharge). No lawyers will represent Debtors with the new liability provisions. Without lawyers the already high Chapter 13 failure rate will skyrocket. The net effect is hundreds of thousands/millions of American middle class people (the divorced, ill, injured, layed off, and failed entrepreneurs) will no longer get discharges and no longer be able to function as productive members of the American economy. All this at time when we are likely looking at a coming housing bubble correction, interest rate spike (accelarated by government budget and trade deficts), and dollar sell off.

And for what? I understand that MBNA and other credit card issuers have contributed a great deal to Senators for the additional leverage on Debtors that this bill will give them but is that enough to vote for a bill that is harmful to the interests of the American economy and its middle class.

There are other bad things in the bill and if your office would to discuss them further feel free to correspond to arrange the same. Thank you for your time considering this matter.

[oneold1-4u]

86. You are doing what many of us could not

Your message needs to go to many, if not all, congressmen, but as a lay person I cannot use it because I am not trained in laws of high finance and bankruptcy. I do know that many of the rich and ultra rich have used the federal bankruptcy law at some time. Many were able to keep many assets for their use in some very questionable income endeavors. One such person kept several homes and apartments around the country, a private plane, large yacht, several limos and all jewelry because he used them in his line of business. He had somewhere near 4 million in debt completely discharged! I do think bankruptcy is a public record so perhaps some of those who have used it and now wish for this law to go into effect, should be "outed" publicly.

[madmark]

87. Well they really are two distinct issues

This bill is an assault on the middle class and really does nothing about what you described which sounds like either bankruptcy fraud or extremely effective asset protection done more than four years prior to the accumulation of debt(to avoid fraudulent transfer issues) and probably using a combination of trust devices and domiciles with unlimited homestead exemptions.

[cap]

108. just went to Wharton's "Restructuring" Conference

aka bankruptcy. Harry Miller was there. All of them were predicting another wave of corporate bankruptcies starting in 06/07. A whole lot of average people are going to be ruined. You are in a growth field my friend.

There is a shit load of money to be made from corporate bankruptcies. I was amazed.

[madmark]

110. I mostly do small business Chapter 11s so a lot of what the

bill does does not directly impact what I do. Its just I think the destruction of the middle class is bad for the country and I think this bill is just another step in that direction. I believe that "trickle up" economics is the real reason why this country has been so prosperous and if you kill the middle class my business clients will not have demand anymore for their products/services.

[cap]

111. you'll be busy next year

although it doesnt sound like you enjoy the impact that bankruptcy will have on the average person.

[caledesi]

106. Can "they" get me. I can't sleep over this. Anybody?

2 years ago my husband got laid off from his job and meanwhile I got very sick (probably MS). Ran up all kinds of CC debt ALL in my name (not his). No heath insurance, all kinds of prescriptions and doctor's visits. I never filed for bankruptcy bec I didn't feel well most of the time and am have been pursuing disability - takes a while. GRRRR!

I have not worked in a year. No income. No major assets are in my name alone (house, car-which is worth zip), etc.

My question is can "they" try to get $ from my husband for MY debt or try to take our condo which my husband is paying the mortage on, but my name is on the condo? He is now working a temp job for $9/hr...yeah, this is Florida.

Please help because I want to sleep this morning.

[AlienGirl]

109. Short answer: yes

If it's a community-property state, they can sue him for anything you owe. If it's not a community-property state maybe not, but you'll probably have to get a divorce if you want "his" assets to be safe.

My take on this is that the only option for someone with health problems is to die, quickly. :-(

Tucker (owes $40K+ in student loans)

[madmark]

112. In community property states

the "community" is liable for debt incurred by either spouse during the pendency of the marriage (there are exceptions for personal guarantees of third party debt).

[elehhhhna]

139. Call a lawyer.

If the unsecured debt is all in your name only, w/ no assets, I think you're okay--you will file, he will not.

[superconnected]

113. Why not cap the profit ratio credit cards can have

They cap casinos and cable.

What I've seen with credit cards are horrendous rates - 20-33% some of my friends have (I hold none and have no debt). And their rates are changing and growing as they pay bills late.

Apparently is it in the fine print?

People often resort to credit cards to cure the toothe ache of sudden debt they have to answer - a dentist bill one person I know had, her daughter had to have an excruciatingly painful tooth pulled and shes out of a job and her husband has no insurance. She took out the credit card and used it for the dentist. Consider that a minor emergency, I had another friend who declared bankruptcy finally but had been putting her house payments on credit cards because she couldn't afford them when she lost her job - turned into a major debt.

The thing is they got the teaser rates, that doubled or tripled, and then the rates kept going up as they paid late.

You guys may say that people should just not use the cards, but they are being pursued by those companies and emergencies happen.

Every time I get my mail there are credit card offers in there. I refuse to have one and see that as opening up my name for identity theft if someone else got a hold of my mail. I must say the credit card companies pursue me EVERY DAY, and ruthlessly. A few times I've been fooled into opening unmarked-vanila envelopes that were fattened with bubble wrap and had the credit offers inside - all to get my attention.

[BuelahWitch]

114. But what will the changes DO?

Can someone point me in the direction of some information on the ramification of these changes, please?

[madmark]

115. Read my post no. 81 and it will tell what I think the worst parts are

[madmark]

116. There is another thread in DU Politics that has a link for email forms to

you can send to your local senators to tell them you want the bill killed. The link is: http://ga3.org/campaign/senateindebt

[yankeedem]

119. That means that CC interest rates will be going down

because of decreased risk, right? What do you mean no?

[madmark]

120. CC companies will charge the highest rate borrowers are willing to pay

Because of the adhesive nature of most cc offers you just do not see a competitive marketplace like you do with home mortgage rates. I believe its naive to believe there will be some general lowering of borrowing costs to consumers. The CC companies are going to keep the spread. What you are more likely to see is insolvent debtors resorting to usurious payday loans (which are funded in the background by well known CC companies) with the post-dated check requirements at the time funding and threat of criminal prosecution in the event of default. These operations are growing like wild around my state and I believe that is the consumer lending trend of the future.

[CornField]

122. And, when you get a huge medical bill

watch your CC rates jump sky-high because you are now more of a "risk"

[jdj]

176. why are they exempt from usury anyway? that doesn't make sense.

should we write our congress people about it...there is no reason they should get an exemption, no good reason anyway.

[Bridget Burke]

170. Just like malpractice insurance got cheaper in Texas...

after "tort reform" was passed.

That is, NO!

[Vinca]

121. We're screwed until Democrats are a majority, then maybe we can

reverse some of this. In the meantime, people are going to suffer needlessly. We have to work like hell to win seats in 2006 and the White House in 2008. This country won't be worth living in if they remain in office.

[GreenPartyVoter]

123. Thank God we did ours a few years ago

[Old Deuteronomy]

130. Didn't they....

always?

[Kitsune]

136. Yet another reason to not have credit cards.

[Maclilly]

149. I am filing next week

My attorney has warned me about this. He used to be a republican and now is a indepenent. He has been advocating against this kind of bill for 3 years. He says they have already made it harder for people to file and this could be the end for him. This is very bad.

[datasuspect]

144. glad i live off the grid

fuck the greedy bastards . . .

[UdoKier]

146. God knows they own me.

In the old days they had debtors prison. Now get the much more enlightened "homelessness".

[amazona]

155. don't understand how this can work

It is death to small business if it's real, since no one could take the chance of starting a small business with its very real chance of failure and indebt their family forever if their dream doesn't work out.

So OK it will achieve the purpose of killing any start-ups that might have otherwise provided competition to the big boys.

But as far as the much more common medical related bankruptcies, if you're sick and can't work and can't pay the bills, you can't pay the bills no matter how many laws they pass. Do they plan to put cancer patients in debtor's prison?

I just don't see how this law can be anything but a paper tiger unless they want to spark an uprising.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[madmark]

156. It won't result in an uprising; people will go underground

They will attempt to function under great stress outside the above ground economy. People will not get back on their feet like they can now. You will see quiet desperation, depression, and in too many cases ultimately either health collapses or suicides from the pressure and anxiety from the unrelenting debt burden. The bill is not a paper tiger and will severely harm people in the manner I have described.

[amazona]

164. I do believe it will cause suicide

I didn't realize that people in remission from cancer experienced severe depression until it happened to a friend. You always hear the positive spin about how near-death gives people a new lease on life. Ha. My friend was angry and depressed about the permanent changes to his body and the financial effects of not being able to work for so long. He had to be given Prozac after his recovery from the cancer. I really believe if he had not been able to save his home through bankruptcy, he would have committed suicide, or tried to, in order to protect his family.

It is really scary. Already you feel like a burden when you are sick. And now this?

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Digit]

196. I know of a friend of a friend...

I have met her, so she really does exist.
She is in her mid 30's with colon cancer. She has all but given up, will not undergo anymore treatments. She has no insurance and her condo association is foreclosing on her condo for nonpayment of fees.
I fully expect her to take her own life.
I cannot help since I am without a job myself.
Even her friend is without a job and is going through a nasty divorce.

I have been predicting that more people are going to be taking their own lives for some time now. It is that, or live under some bridge in a cardboard box.

I cry for what my country once was and the compassion it is so sorely lacking.

[Emboldened Chimp]

165. CC companies own you, too, Freeps...

I know you're lurking out there. This hurts you just as it does me. Predatory lending knows no ideology. We are both truly fucked because of this, and you can thank your party for pushing it through.

[nolabels]

168. Not really, but they might notice what is above them

guess they never learned some people die in fires for lone reason of asphyxiation.

I don't know if this will be the final nail in coffin, we will just have to wait and see.

NAFTA slipped the proverbial banana peel to GATT, when the US banking system crashes because of enormous public and private debt. Then like what happened in Argentina just recently then the whole world will see why it's not a good idea to have business running government.

I don't know about you but I have a trade that I can barter for subsistence

[Auntie Bush]

169. God help us all for we know not what we do when we elected bush*

[hiley]

178. Since it has not passed yet

we still have time to fight these greedy and uncaring bastards.
I have a few actions at this post on SS and Nuclear Bunker Busters and Bankruptcy.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1636202

[Kimber Scott]

181. Don't use credit cards. Ever. See how they like cutting off their nose

to spite their face. Cut them up. Pay them off. You may even consider not using your debit cards. The credit card companies and the banks make money every time you use that, too. Usually a flat fee (.35, or so) plus a percentage per transaction. That has to be billions of dollars. Billions.

[adigal]

182. "Have we no prisons? Have we no workhouses?"

Where will the people go who cannot pay their bills? Shall they go off to debtor's prison? But then the freepers/neocons will complain about having to support them and their families in debtor's prison. Perhaps we shall just "eliminate" them and their oh-so-annoying empty bank accounts. After all, poor people are not REAL Americans, we all know that, don't we?? I love the new America, don't you?

[hector459]

185. There is no more Democratic party. We need to start now forging a new

party for 2008 and beyond.

[Heyo]

186. How do you figure..

.. that the CD companies own you?

(just askin')

:dunce:

Heyo

[dflprincess]

192. When they tried to pass this bill in the late '90s Wellstone

stopped it by himself using procedural manuevers. Any Democrat could have done the same thing this time.

[Charon]

197. Credit Card Companies now Own you

Only if you let them.