Whining White Males Who Claim Reverse Discrimination READ THIS

[Beetwasher]

All you whiny, pathetic white males who whine DISCRIMINATION! whenever affirmative action is discussed, chew on this and then go back to your holes.

New Studies Point to Crisis Among U.S. Black Men

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A batch of new studies suggesting that black males in the United States are falling ever further behind other groups in health, education and employment has ignited a debate within the black community about who is to blame and what can be done.

"There's a major discussion within the community about what we need to do about black males," said Peter Groff, a Colorado state senator and director of the Center for African American Policy at the University of Denver.

Traditionally, many black leaders have blamed the legacy of slavery, institutional racism and poverty for the problems faced by blacks in general and men in particular.

--snip--

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=7784193

[DireStrike]

1. *sheepishly raises hand*

Doesn't this show that affirmative action isn't helping?

[Beetwasher]

2. What Ever Gave You That Idea?

It means MORE needs to be done, not less. AA isn't the only solution, but obviously it's not enough. This doens't mean it's not working, it means it's not enough.

[DireStrike]

9. If you have a problem, and do something, and it gets worse...

That could mean that what you're doing isn't working.

Correlation is not causation, but it IS correlation.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rogerashton]

20. Not disagreeing, but

nonemployment of males is a growing problem throughout the industrialized world. Also true to some extent of white males in the USA.

I don't doubt for a moment it is worse for African-Americans, who usually get the slimey end of whatever stick is being passed around. But the stick is going around.

[DireStrike]

23. Suppose I take some diet pills

I take them. I gain weight.

It doesn't mean that the pills made me gain weight. All it means is that they don't do what theyre supposed to. They are not a magic bullet, and neither is AA. That's ALL I SAID, all I was trying to imply.

You could argue that AA is not being administered properly; the pills are not being taken correctly. That's a different issue.

""A report in June for the Alternative Schools Network found that in 2002 one in every four black men in the United States was permanently unemployed, a rate double that of white men and 70 percent higher than among Asian and Hispanic men.

"What is most depressing about the low employment rates of black men is the high fraction of such men, especially those with limited schooling ... who are idle all year long," the report said." "

Why do people keep quoting that? All it shows is that there are problems. We know there are problems. You seem to think I am somehow asserting that everything is fine and dandy in the black community. I don't see how you could get that idea from what I said; by my saying "isn't working" I implied that there was a problem.

The article does little to even address the issue of AA; that was something I brought up of my own volition. I assume one thing only, that AA is being administered. If that is true, it is not helping, alone, to remedy the situation.

[Beetwasher]

"Yes, I definitely said we should get rid of it."

Uh, sounds like you're chaning your tune mid thread. :shrug:

Unless I'm misunderstanding your post?

[DireStrike]

30. Here

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm

[Beetwasher]

32. Didn't Seem That Way To Me

But if your sarcasm isn't clear, it's your fault for not making it so.

Certainly seemed like you WERE against AA and only now changing your tune when you see how bankrupt your arguments are and how faulty your logic was.

But if that is not the case or what you are saying and you were being sarcastic, then we do agree and we have no argument.

[DireStrike]

36. "Yes, I definitely said we should get rid of it...

It's not like I could have said that it wasn't solving the problems by itself."

You can't tell that this is sarcasm? Well, I'm sorry. Next time I'll use the little eye-rolly smilie for you.

Thank you though, for being so reactionary and assuming the worst of me. I thought I had been quite clear with the sarcasm and the *sheepishly raises hand* bit.

[Beetwasher]

37. That's What the Smileys Are For

You're welcome!

It's not like we don't get people in here who speak out of both sides of their mouths all the time.

As I said, it seems we have no argument and we agree, so I'm ready to move on. If I thought the worst of you and I was wrong, I apologize.

[DireStrike]

39. Accepted - and I apologize if I caused offense.

I need to think more before I post sometimes.

[Beetwasher]

43. Nahh, No Apology Necessary, I'm Hard To Offend

Maybe impossible.

I thought the worst. ;-)

[tx_dem41]

64. But, its not a closed system like you describe in your diet pill example..

What if you were taking diet pills AND eating 10,000 calories a day, and you gain weight. That doesn't mean the diet pills aren't working. It means you aren't addressing all the causes of your weight gain.

[forgethell]

38. "OTHER factors are making the problem worse"

What other problems? Something a little more specific, if you please, than "white racism".

[Beetwasher]

40. Read The Article

n/t

[forgethell]

44. Yes, thank you,

I read the article. So there are problems. What are the causes, do you think? Besides that all convenient bogeyman, "white racsim", I mean.

[Beetwasher]

45. Where Did I Say That Was the Only Problem?

Please show me where I even mentioned "white racism".

Am I to take it that you feel "white racism" doesn't exist and isn't a problem? Is that why you put "white racism" in quotes?

[forgethell]

46. You have avoided my question.

What do you think is/are the problem(s)?? Sure, white racism exists, as does black racism. I just don't think it is a strong enough force to keep a whole people down.

Further, there seems to be no viable solution. AA really hasn't worked if, as soon as it is not vigorously enforced, blacks fall way behind again. I mean it was sold as a temporary measure.

So I ask again: what is the problem, and what are your proposed solutions.

I'll give you one of mine: lack of education. The opportunities are there, although inner city schools are shit. but the students don't take them, and the parents don't demand better results from their schools. What should be done about it??

[Beetwasher]

49. Education Is Probably The Most Important One

More funding for public schools in inner cities is what should be done about it. The opportunities are NOT there in the inner cities. The schools are falling apart, good teachers don't have the incentives needed to teach there and the current admin. couldn't give a shit so the problem is only going to get worse. College loan and tuition programs are being cut, after school programs are being cut, free lunch programs are being cut etc. Of course parents DO demand better from their schools, but the people who need to hear it don't care and cut funding anyway.

However, to deny the power of racism is foolish and ignorant. It IS rich, racist white men who control the country and they DO make every attempt to strip minorities (especially blacks) from voter roles (only one BLATANT example). The decimation of inner cities (especially minority neighborhoods) through denial and cutting of federal funds is another attempt to keep blacks and other minorities from acheiving economic parity. Economic decimation of their neighborhoods and lack of funding for their public schools means they find other methods of survival, such as crime, which means more (an incredibly disproportinate amount) are incarcerated, which further limits opportunities available later on. This is being done systematically and methodically and with purpose by those in power and it IS racism and it IS a major problem. Racism IS alive and well, only more covert and being practiced through economic discrimination. It is certainly no boogeyman. I didn't say it before, but I will say it now, economic discrimination (racism) is one of the things at the very heart of the problems of this crisis.

Most solutions to the problem have economic foundations and require funding to implement and the funding is disappearing (or going elsewhere) and so the problems are only exacerbated and that's not an accident.

[forgethell]

53. That's right.

Powerful white men have nothing better to than spend their time and money than to keep the black man down.

Funding is NOT the problem, and least not the major one. A lack of concentration on the basics, what is sneeringly referred to as "teaching to the test": a lack of discipline due to fear of lawsuits; parental non-involvement; single parent households; crime. These are the problems, and they must be solved by the local community. After all, if the community doesn't care enough about how they live, it isn't racism for anybody else not to take much interest.

That said, more funding should perhaps be made available, but it should also be used more wisely. As long as people blame their problems on others, even if there is some truth to the accusations, they will continue to have those problems. No one is as interested in a person's, or a community's problems as he or they are. No one. And there is always a solution, although it may not always be the hoped-for one, or the easy one.

[Beetwasher]

56. That's Right

Except the idea is they are NOT spending Time OR Money, that's the point and HOW they keep them down. Duh. Of course it's in their best interest to deny the time and money necessary for minorities to achieve. They DON'T address the important issues that would help minorities acheive parity because this country is soon going to MOSTLY minorities and minorities are a threat to them politically speaking. The less well off, the less educated, the less of a political threat.

The local community has a responsibility, but it needs RESOURCES in order to address the problems.

A lack of concentration on the basics, what is sneeringly referred to as "teaching to the test":

Who's fault is this? Sounds like NCLB. Or, as I said, lack of quality teachers. Again, funding (spent wisely instead of idiotically on NCLB) and economics.

a lack of discipline due to fear of lawsuits;

Yeah, right, it's all lawsuits fault! :eyes: What a load of crap.

parental non-involvement;

Economics. Parents working all the time to make ends meet have less time to be involved. An involved parent who's kid goes to a shitty school is at a severe disadvantage. Also, no matter how involved, if they don't have money to spend to further their childs education, and college tuition programs are being cut then I guess their just shit out of luck, huh?

single parent households;

Bullshit.

crime.

Again, economics. Sociological study after study shows, bad economy, more crime. Period.

You're talking points sound familiar, I wonder why that is.

It all boils down to resources, resources from funding. Yes, funding that is spent wisely, but funding and support nonetheless. Funding and support that is quickly dissapearing because the people in charge don't give a shit about the minorities in the inner cities.

Why was it that when we had a different administration, one that actually paid attention to some of these problems and increased funding, the problems WERE getting better. And now, we have an admin. that is filled with racist assholes and guess what? The problems are getting worse again. Must just be a coincidence, huh?

[forgethell]

63. Or, perhaps,

you are totally misreading and misinterpreting the available data.

It the powerful white men who run the country were really worried about minoritis taking over, they would put a halt to immigration, legal and illegal. They aren't, so they don't.

Well, why should they be. The new comers may not be white, but they aren't black, either. ANd they really have no historical claim to ;affirmative action.

All I can say is, the people can either wallow in self-pity, and maybe, maybe get something from the Man. Or they can stand on their own hind legs and make something for themselves despite whatever the Man may choose to do.

[Beetwasher]

66. Uh Huh, Easy For You To Say

Immigration=cheap labor. Poverty=cheap labor. Cheap labor=big profits for those on top. It ain't rocket science. They aren't worried about too many minorities in this country, they are worried about those minorities attaining POWER. Big difference. Lot's of subjugated, powerless minorities are a good thing for them. Lot's of minorities with lot's of economic opportunity is a BAD thing for them.

Wallow in self pity? Puhleeze, what a load of sanctimonious bullshit. No one's wallowing in self pity when they point out injustice. The only people who call that self pity are people who have an agenda and a stake in keeping them down, or people who fear those who are oppressed.

[forgethell]

69. Right, then

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as I am not a judgmental person and don't wish to indulge in a flame war.

Good-bye

[Beetwasher]

70. LOL! That's Funny, Not Judgemental? And Yet You Claim AA's Are Wallowing

in self pity? Uh, yeah, ok, whatever you say. I don't think it gets more judgemental than that. :eyes:

Buh bye.

[Nay]

79. I would like to see the statistics for black WOMEN educated

in the same schools that these unemployed men went to. I don't know, but I bet they're doing a whole lot better for themselves by actually using even the admittedly poor educational opportunities. There is still a lot of "education is for puss**s" attitude among black men and rural white men here in VA.

[trumad]

4. So let's get rid of it and make things worse...Please

[DireStrike]

13. Yes, I definitely said we should get rid of it.

It's not like I could have said that it wasn't solving the problems by itself.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Guess you missed the second page of the article

A report in June for the Alternative Schools Network found that in 2002 one in every four black men in the United States was permanently unemployed, a rate double that of white men and 70 percent higher than among Asian and Hispanic men.

"What is most depressing about the low employment rates of black men is the high fraction of such men, especially those with limited schooling ... who are idle all year long," the report said.

Kinda proves that when AA isn't enforced things go downhill.

[forgethell]

41. maybe it

has something to do with the "limited schooling" thingee??

[prolesunited]

8. Did you EVEN bother to read the article?

Where does this point to a failure of affirmative action?

And since I know it doesn't, could you explain to me why you think AA is at fault for the worsening situation.

[DireStrike]

11. AA is supposed to remedy the situation and the situation is worse

If we have AA, then it is not remedying the situation.

If it is not remedying the situation, it doesn't work.

Seems simple to me. Where did I say we should do less?

[Beetwasher]

15. Bullshit

What a load of crap.

If you're bleeding to death and you tie off the artery, but you're still bleeding from ANOTHER cut artery, does tying off the first one NOT HELP??? It helps, but it's just not enough. You still have to take care of the OTHER problems too. Duh.

[DireStrike]

24. Then you agree with me.

AA, tying off one artery, doesn't work.

I don't care what you do to stop the bleeding. Just because I'm being critical doesn't mean im not on your side.

[prolesunited]

27. So, what *is* the answer?

Let's say we scrap AA as you are recommending. Then what? :shrug:

[DireStrike]

31. I don't know. And I didn't say we should get rid of it. -nt-

[Beetwasher]

28. Then Why In Your Post Above Do You Say We Should Get Rid Of It?

Sounds like you're backpedaling and now YOU are agreeing w/ ME.

[Susang]

18. But affirmative action has been chipped away at for years now

Perhaps that's why it's no longer working.

All the crying of "reverse discrimination" has had an effect. Many institutions are changing or have changed their policies regarding AA, bowing to pressure.

It really isn't simple at all.

[MemphisTiger]

21. I agree with you

It is obvious around my town that reverse discrimination is alive and well.

[Beetwasher]

22. Uh Huh

Sure it is..:eyes:

[MemphisTiger]

48. How would you know about my situation?

:eyes:

[Beetwasher]

50. I Don't

Why don't you whine to me about it? :eyes:

Let me guess, you applied for a job and didn't get it because a less qualified (in your eyes) black man got it. Sure...

[MemphisTiger]

54. Since when was I whining

You shouldn't jump to conclusions

[Beetwasher]

57. It is obvious around my town that reverse discrimination is alive and well

Wahhhhh! Wahhhh! Wahhhh!

[MemphisTiger]

60. Whatever

[Beetwasher]

61. Waaaaaa!

Buh bye!

[DireStrike]

26. I didn't say anything about reverse discrimination. -nt-

[MemphisTiger]

47. I never said you did. It was an additional thought

last time I checked, we were for free speech on this site.

[trumad]

3. t's the middle class squeeze

All Americans are feeling it but the minorities are feeling it even more.

[m0nkeyneck]

5. what does this have to do with..

affirmative action?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[m0nkeyneck]

89. do you even know what AA is?

thanks for the insult; usually the first thing out of a truly ignorant persons mouth/keyboard. looks like you are looking for an argument rather than a discussion.. i'm not going to play. good day

lmbao

[7th_Sephiroth]

6. i do not condone slavery

but through ignorance and racisim, those who fight saying slavery is all the white man, they must remember, that back in africa, the ones catching and selling the slaves to the whites, were black themselves

[prolesunited]

10. And how does this relate?

People are always willing to sell out others for profit, so what's your point. And, who exactly who was buying the slaves? They wouldn't have sold their own people out if there wasn't a market.

[7th_Sephiroth]

16. ah, but they still must own up to thier actions

yes whites had slaves, EVERYONE did, if your serious about getting reparations, public apoligies and such, you go after the the supplier, the originator, you go after who first took thes peoples freedoms in the first place

[prolesunited]

25. Yes, it is the African Americans OWN fault

for the mess that they are in so we should just wash our hands of it. :eyes:

So, I'm sure these tribes just got the idea to grab up their fellow men and women, contacted the white people and said, "Have I got a deal for you!"

[7th_Sephiroth]

33. i'm not saying washing hands of anything

and yes, slavery everywhere started in the 1400's and the only slaves in the world were from africa and the only buyers of slaves were whites </Scarcasim> slavery has been around as long as money itself, the point i'm making is this, dont JUST Raise Hell with who were the most direct and because of thier skin color, you must raise hell with EVERY involver party

[Tomee450]

67. What utter rubbish.

As a black person I must say I am so tired of hearing about the blacks who sold other blacks. The fact is the blacks who were sold were usually prisoners of war. Also, African sellers had no idea of the kind of slavery that existed in the United States. IN Africa, slaves were treated differently, some were able to buy their freedom. Others even achieved high status in some tribes.

We are discussing slavery and the treatment of African Americans on these shores. The African seller did not force the American slave owner to work the slaves from sun up to sun down giving them little rest, poor clothing and food. There were no African sellers holding a gun to the head of the American slave owners as they raped black women, sold off family members, castrated black men, and killed and maimed slaves who tried to escape bondage. Furthermore, Africans were not involved in Jim Crow. They had nothing to do with the years of lynching, denial of voting rights and decent education. They had nothing to do with housing and employment discrimination. It's only been about forty years that blacks have begun to enjoy some of the rights every white man has at birth. Racism is a major cause of the sad plight of many in the black community. Black men have had an especially hard time in this society as they are continued to be viewed suspiciously and are the object of the worse stereotypes. I don't doubt that this has had a terrible effect on the psyche of many African American men.

It's outrageous that people are trying to blame Africans for the plight of African Americans. Government policies bear a lot of blame, polices that are the result of the racial hatred that many in this society harbor against black people. Many continue to have such hatred and refuse to accept the truth about the treatment that blacks have received since being brought to this country.

Unfortunately, too many people in this country are simply unwilling to correct many of the problems African Americans face that are the result of racial discrimination, much of it government sanctioned.

[7th_Sephiroth]

83. they had thier role in it too

i dont condone any of it but to substantially raise hell over one while ignoreing the other is still wrong

[Tomee450]

86. I still say rubbish.

You can't blame someone else for the crimes of another. African sellers cannot be blamed for the actions of America's slave owners.They were not forced to buy other human beings. They could have refused the sale. No one forced the slave owners to treat their slaves the way they did. Slaves were treated like beasts, not human beings. Your's is the typical response of people who want to deflect blame from the person committing a crime onto someone else. The sellers only sold the slave. It was the owners who abused them. They were not forced to do so. If a person is kicked in the face, does that somehow make the person who did the kicking less guilty because kicking had been done before by others? This country is responsible for what happened on these shores, things for which African sellers cannot be blamed. Some of the atrocities occurred even after slavery ended. I suppose you think the African sellers are to be blamed for Jim Crow, for thousands of lynchings, too?

To their credit some African nations did apologize for their roles in the slave trade. The United States has not done so and that is perfectly acceptable, according to a poll several years ago, with seventy percent of white people.

[7th_Sephiroth]

88. but they still hunted down

bound beat and sold other human biengs, i'm not saying to not punish the whites, but to not punish JUST the whites, they knew what they were doing when they sold those slaves, they are as guilty as anyone else, you dont just arest the crackhead for useing, you prosecute the dealer, as well

[Tomee450]

92. But we are not talking about what the

Africans did, we are talking about what Americans did. You are trying to change the subject. Since when is a criminal not held responsible for his acts just because others have also committed similar acts. We live in this country, not Africa. If blacks want to seek redress from African countries that's fine with me. However, where the money would come from is beyond me since African resources have been stolen by colonials and most countries are in poor shape.

You want to change the issue but that tactic won't work. You cannot make African sellers responsible for America's sin. I might also add, that it's not clear that Africans hunted down and captured slaves to export. Most slaves were prisoners of war. So blacks were not always enslaving their own but members of different tribes whom they considered their enemy. Upon their arrival in this country, the slave owners were brutal in their treatment of the slaves.
Africans were not responsible for that brutal behavior.

We had state sanctioned slavery. We had state sanctioned Jim Crow. We had a nation that ignored the lynching,disenfranchisement of many of its citizens. Our nation allowed separate but unequal treatment of African Americans. Try as you might, you can never make Africans responsible for the above mistreatment of black Americans. And equal blame cannot be applied. When the slave left Africa, he no longer was viewed as a human being with a culture but as a beast of burden at the mercy of his owner. That treatment occurred, not in Africa but America.

[secular_warrior]

29. Exactly. The white man didn't invent slavery.

Opression of human beings is a human thing, not a white thing. (I'm not white, btw).

[prolesunited]

34. Why is this thread getting sidetracked

by a discussion of whether the white man invented slavery (nobody here said they did)? Let's focus on the real issues here.

[7th_Sephiroth]

35. exactly

and i make this point alot, and i get caller a racist

[tx_dem41]

65. The question is "Who benefitted from slavery in this country?" n/t

[Tomee450]

71. So what if the

white men didn't invent slavery. Was he forced to engage in it? Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and other founding fathers knew slavery was wrong yet they still engaged in it.

[Township75]

12. What does this have to do with AA/discrimination?

The article you reference doesn't even mention AA or discrimination in it.

It has a bunch about Bill Cosby going off on black youth, and that his comments were well received by "many black leaders."

I didn't see anywhere in there were AA was discussed.

[Beetwasher]

19. Read The Article

"A report in June for the Alternative Schools Network found that in 2002 one in every four black men in the United States was permanently unemployed, a rate double that of white men and 70 percent higher than among Asian and Hispanic men.

"What is most depressing about the low employment rates of black men is the high fraction of such men, especially those with limited schooling ... who are idle all year long," the report said."

I made the connection, but clearly unemployment is a HUGE problem for African American Males.

[Township75]

52. These problems are bigger than AA

"What is most depressing about the low employment rates of black men is the high fraction of such men, especially those with limited schooling ... who are idle all year long," the report said."

How could AA help these people with "limited schooling" - whatever that means. If it means no HS diploma, who is surprised they are unemployed? AA means going after minorities who are qualified for the job, and for those that don't have the education to be qualified, AA won't help them because it doesn't apply to them. To employ those that are not qualified would be a quota.

[Beetwasher]

58. Yes, It's Bigger Than AA

Absolutely. AA is not NEARLY enough to rectify the situation.

[Igel]

42. They're right. It's a crisis.

No matter what happened to affirmative action, the graduation rate of AA males has been declining. I think it's held steady or increased for AA females.

This says nothing about the number of blacks admitted: that's the first goal of affirmative action, equal opportunity. Get them into college, they will prosper. They haven't.

Aff. action, round two, when round one didn't succeed: Set up extensive counselling networks and tutoring services. Male AA graduate rates continue to trend down.

It's not just the graduation rates, it's also the percentage of applications. To say that aff. action isn't working isn't a mistake; it's not.

Aff. action, round three: examine the financial aid. But most of the blacks that flunk out are poor, and get more grants than the whites that don't flunk out. Even if you compare cohorts with similar family backgrounds (parents went to college or not, similar incomes ...) AA males come in lower .

Ding to aff. action, round one: Notice who the successful AA graduates are. Skewed towards recent AA immigrants and their kids; with a lesser skew towards middle/upper class blacks. This means the blacks who don't have college educated blacks have an even higher dropout rate; but those with college educated parents or reasonably prosperous parents still drop out more frequently than whites.

I'm not sure where AA can go at the college level. It's not working--many of those admitted to meet the "black quota" (official or not), and if they weren't included the dropout rate would likely be even higher. Maybe pre-college? Family counselling?

[redqueen]

51. Affirmative Action can only help if the students

a) get to college in the first place, and
b) graduate from college

There was an editorial in the NYT a couple of years ago about how many books children of different ethnicities had access to. It was very dismaying.

I'm not saying it's all the fault of one party or another, but I think parents have the most significant role in how their children's lives turn out. I also think programs like community-based adult education centers or mentors for newparents would help a tremendous amount.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. Gosh, I sure wish I was Black so I could get all the goodies.

Everybody knows that Black males have it made in our society. All those great jobs they get "just because they're black". All that free education at the top schools and glamorous housing in Watts and the Bronx and Attica. All they do is lounge around and collect welfare and food stamps and get all the pretty white girls because of the Mercedes that we poor, musused, white guys paid for.

We should demand our Gawd given right to work at menial jobs, live in slums, and go to prison!

Hopefully, they will come up with a painless way to change our pigmentation so we can collect all that payola.

/sarcasm/off

[Lilith Velkor]

59. I'm just glad I'm female

We NEVER get oppressed. :eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Gosh, I wish I was female.

So I could work at menial jobs for less pay than we oppressed white males. So I could be told to have children I don't want. So that I could lounge around all day changing diapers, cooking, shopping, gardening, scrubbing, laundrying, and keeping the poor misunderstood white men happy. I wish I could be called a slut because I like sex that doesn't produce children. I wish I could be told that, as a woman, and for that reason alone, I can't aspire to the presidency by allegedly "progressive" Democrats.

The oppression suffered by minorities and women far outweigh the supposed "discrimination" suffered by white males.

[Bluebear]

68. Which white males here are whining about affirmative action?

[3lefts]

72. I read the article

William Harvey of the Center for the Advancement of Racial and Ethnic Equity...

"blamed what he called 'American bravado' and a 'macho culture' that made education seem irrelevant to many black males and pushed them toward low-paying jobs, the military or the "undercover economy."

Does this mean that black males consider themselves to be "too cool for school", as it were? Seems that making education seem relevant to black males would be a good place to start. Knowledge is power. I think I've heard that somewhere before.

How about blaming (from the article): "the 'anti-intellectualism' fostered by black street culture."
I don't think anyone would argue that whiny, pathetic white males are to blame for black street culture.

Maybe ask the question - why are black men now lagging Asian and Hispanic men too?

Physician, heal thyself.

[Beetwasher]

74. Who Said That Whiny Pathetic Males Were To Blame?

I didn't. But I HAVE seen whiny, pathetic white males come in here and blame AA for THEIR failures. Get it? IOW, I didn't get the job because a less qualified black man got it instead. It's an easy excuse and one that entails not having to examine one's own failures or shortcomings.

There are lot's of problems in african-american communities, one of them IS the problem of anti-intellectualism fostered by street culture. This street culture however is a product of OTHER things. It didn't just pop up out of a vacuum. It's the result of disaffection with a system that has forgotten or left african-americans in the dust.

[One_Life_To_Give]

76. Documentary about youth jobs and "the other kids got my job"

There was a documentary a few years back. About some of the urban neighborhoods in Boston. One part I remember well;
The white kids blamed all the black kids for taking their jobs.
And the black kids blamed the white kids for taking their jobs.

Each side spoke like the other had done this, too them. As if with malice and forethought.

[3lefts]

77. Fair enough...

I did not gather that from what you were saying in your OP.

Fortunately, in my work, merit and work ethic counts. Promotions and such are based on that. If you are even considered for promotion you can believe that you deserve it, regardless of race.

[Beetwasher]

78. Yeah, In A Perfect World That's Obvioulsy The Ideal

Unfortunately, the world is far less than perfect...

[mcscajun]

73. Phrases that irk me…

"reverse discrimination"

"black racism"

"white racism"

There's discrimination, pure and simple; there's racism, pure and simple. Qualifying it by an adjective, at least IMO, implies a judgment of a degree of severity or a comment on its nature or appropriateness. "Reverse" discrimination particularly grates as it smacks of entitlement: "How dare they discriminate against Me, I'm White!"

It all smacks of the absurd, IMO. I should in fairness point out that I'm white. I'm also for Affirmative Action, and agree it's not enough.

[One_Life_To_Give]

75. The statistic that bothers

Declining graduation rates for black men while the rates for black women climb.

[redqueen]

80. Why did you start this topic with such an inflammatory subject line?

I'm curious... was your intention to serously discuss this topic?

[Beetwasher]

82. I Just Get Ticked Off

Whenever I see those whiny threads/posts. When I read this story it just reminded me of those whiny whiteous posts. Inflammatory? Maybe...I prefer to think of it as provocative! Well, ok, I'm full of shit, I know it's inflammatory! I admit it! (Do I get any points for honesty? ;-))

[redqueen]

91. Yeah, in my book you do.

*marks down 10 points for Beetwasher* ;)

I just hope that we can open a dialogue between us and the right... I'm not saying that we should cater to them at all... but in order to educate them, we first need to get them to listen. I think challenging them so abruptly triggers defenses. Just my .02.

:hi:

[KnowerOfLogic]

81. AA is in not the same as 'regular' discrimination; ask anybody who's

been the victim of both. Regular, old fashioned discrimination says "You suck. We don't like you. We don't want you." AA says "We like you so much that we already have a zillion of you, and we're trying to diversify a little." That's a big difference.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. A couple of comments

Among working class people of all races, women have an easier time getting jobs than men, because the jobs they are concentrated in--cleaning houses and offices, waitressing, hairdressing, daycare work, nursing assistance, retail--are almost impossible to outsource.

Men typically do the outsourceable jobs.

Also, in all races, women are completing high school and entering college at higher races than men. I ascribe this to our "mean and dumb" pop culture, which treats scholastic achievement as the mark of a nerd. Meanwhile, the girls look at the guys adopting the "mean and dumb" attitude and realize that they'll have to support themselves, so they go to school.

Remember the movie Hoop Dreams, in which one of the young men loses all motivation to study after an injury keeps him from playing basketball? There's a scene in which his girlfriend, the mother of his child, berates him, saying that she's studying in school, despite having a child to take care of, and she doesn't have basketball.

I see this problem as existing across all races, but whenever there are economic problems, black people feel it worse than anyone else.

I believe that there is racism, and I'm white. But I see racist attitudes so frequently, whether it's people telling nasty jokes or employers admitting that they've located their businesses out in the exurbs so that they don't have to hire people of color or ''nice people" shaking their heads in disgust when they see an interracial couple, especially an interracial couple with a child. Anyone who claims that racism is no longer a problem simply isn't paying attention. Things are better than in the 1950s, but there's sstill a lot of work to do.

We need two things in this culture:

1) An attitude adjustment among young men of all races. Perhaps if they were educated and really understood the system, they would be dangerous to the powers that be. That may be why the entire pop culture keeps trying to dumb them down.

2) Getting people of different races and ethnic groups together in non-threatening situations to help reduce racist attitudes.

[Nikia]

85. Maybe certain categories of black men suffer due to stereotypes

Many people, consciously or not believe certain stereotypes about blacks to some extent: less intelligent, lazier, more likely to committ crimes. Black men who may, in some way, present evidence to fitting with the stereotypes probably are unemployable. They give the white high school drop out the benefit of the doubt when he applies to a job not requiring education. The black drop out is obviously stupid and/or lazy. Employers may believe that the white ex felon really has been reformed. The black ex felon is considered a criminal. Affirmative action may help the educated black man with no criminal record, but it does not help black men who are perceived to fit the sterotype. How does a person reform if no one gives him a chance?

[Tomee450]

90. Unfortunately,

there are people who refuse to believe that blacks, especially black males, or treated differently in this country. When I was in school, a black child with a smart mouth was suspended. If he repeated the behavior he was sent to a special school. A white student doing the same thing did not face suspension, was not placed in a special school. The principal had a meeting with the parents and they discussed the matter. The white boy stayed in school. Black students who were habitually late were spoken to harshly or kept after school. White students doing exact the same things often got away with it with just a mild rebuke. One black student who was never into trouble was thrown out of school for talking back to the principal. That would never have happened to a white student. I know of several cases in which black students have prepared excellent papers but the white teachers refused to believe the student did the work. They were very, very discouraged because they had indeed done the work.

Blacks and whites are treated differently in this country and black males are treated worse than any other group. People who deny this reality are just being dishonest.

[Worst Username Ever]

87. I was going to read it, and then you called me whiny and pathetic.