Olberman: Bush Doctrine Seems to be Working in the Middle East

[dennis4868]

Olberman tonight said that Bush's doctrine to turn one middle eastern Arab country into a democracy will help make the entire region democratic. THAT WAS ONLY THE BUSH DOCTRINE AFTER EVERYONE FIGURED OUT THERE WERE NO WMDs AND THAT BUSH LIED US INTO A WAR!

Come on Keith, don't be a sellout. You are the last honest MSM reporter that we have left. Don't give Bush credit where it is certainly not due!

[Cha]

1. "Seems to be working"!!???

On what evidence!???

[dennis4868]

2. Don't know.....

but that's what Keith said tonight...he iss till the only MSM person I can still watch...the others make me vomit!

[WhirlyGirl]

40. What's your game, Dennis?

Who sent you here?

[dennis4868]

41. Who sent you here?

Frustration sent me here when I watched that KO segment on the middle east. I love Keith...I only watch Keith from the MSM...I only trust Keith...thats why I was suprised about this segment. But like others here have said, Keith is good out fleshing out an issue and eventually getting to the truth.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dennis4868]

45. let's see....

you have 518 posts and you are telling me to go away? Haha....

I become suprised what I heard on KO show tonight (like others here) and I get slammed for it? I thought only freepers treated people like this. Guess I was wrong...too bad you feel the way you do.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. Let's not judge people on post counts alone....we had a poster....

...with more than 5000 posts leave DU to go back to monitoring her ultra conservative boards.

[Goldmund]

71. No, we'll judge people on perfection of their interpretation...

...and analysis.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Evidently, dennis4868 was pretty far from the target....

...pretty easy to "judge" this one, IMHO.

You either accurately hear and report what was stated on a television show, or you don't. Pretty simple rules to live by.

[Goldmund]

77. I haven't seen the show, but I'll assume you're correct about...

...his mis-interpretation.

But jumping on him as a freeper and a troll because of this is despicable. Are you one of those people who wears a face mask when walking in an urban area? Relax, not everything is a threat and not every mistake is malicious.

[WhirlyGirl]

80. Trouble with liberals is, they give everyone -- even those with clear...

... objectives -- the benefit of the doubt.

This was not a mistake, and in fact drips malice.

Hardly an occasion for relaxation.

--------
<< Relax, not everything is a threat and not every mistake is malicious. >> Goldmund

[Goldmund]

81. First of all, it's against DU rules to call people trolls.

And unlike many other rules, this is a rule that I like, by the way. I've seen it broken in cases where the troll is obvious. But this is not one of those cases. If you think somebody's a troll, hit "Alert".

"drips malice" -- "clear objectives" -- where? How? You've never misheard anything on TV before, and been surpised by it?

The only thing I see here is paranoia and a yearning for rhetorical sterility.

[WhirlyGirl]

83. "drips malice" -- "clear objectives" -- where? How?"

I've deconstructed Dennis'approach, citing specifics, throughout this discussion, Goldmund.

I also cite Keith's actual wording to disprove what Dennis alleges.

Start with Dennis' subject line that's NOT A QUOTE -- when one direct quote would have settled everything, one way or the other. That's the tip-off.

That's always the tip-off.

[Goldmund]

85. I didn't say you were wrong about what KO said

I said you were wrong in calling Dennis a troll.

[WhirlyGirl]

89. Goldmund, accuracy is of the essence where accusations are concerned...

... so don't bother me if you don't have enough respect for me to be precise, okay?

[Goldmund]

91. Are you trying to tell me that

"troll" and "internet provocateur" aren't synonymous? Are you trying to tell me that "who sent you here" is any different from implying somebody's a troll?

[WhirlyGirl]

98. Could you please get back on the topic, Goldmund.

[WhirlyGirl]

84. And I don't call people trolls. Go back and see who it was. 'Twasn't I.

[Goldmund]

86. You may not have used the exact word

but "Bushies never fear to smear.", "Who sent you here?", "internet provocateur" etc are obviously equivalent.

[WhirlyGirl]

90. I proved what I alleged. Which is better than Dennis has given KO.

Let's remember how this whole thing started, namely, with a LIE.

[Goldmund]

92. I must have missed that proof

must be because you didn't end with "QED".

[Catchawave]

56. She has a donor star....and you? -nt

[WhirlyGirl]

58. Ahhh, nice catch, Catch!

[antigone382]

3. On the evidence that Lebanon is about to descend into a civil war.

Of course, I hope it turns out differently...but I don't think it will.

[wtmusic]

4. Which "democracy" was he talking about?

This has to be a joke...

[Cha]

11. We don't even have a "democracy"

here! How about that, Keith!

And I know ..Keith is one of the good guys!

[senseandsensibility]

5. What a bizarre statement.

Can anyone shed any light on it?

[dennis4868]

6. I guess he feels.....

that there are winds of change in Lebanon, Egypt (multi-party elections this fall), PLO, and Iraq...

[Politiclo8]

42. The 'elections' in Egypt are a sham and ...........................

......these other moves in Lebanon and Iraq are only going to destabilize the region more. I guess youh haven't heard that the Kurds in northern Iraq want to be independent from the rest Iraq and if they do become independent may cause Kurds from Turkey and Iran to want to join them to form a Kurdish nation (need I remind you that the Kurdish regions in Iraq and Turkey are very rich with oil and any instability in these regions could cause some serious negative consequences for the American economy.
Pardon my french but Bush is a major clusterf*ck waiting to happen and he's already set things in motion!!!!!!!!

[Gloria]

7. He needs to do more homework......Egypt's elections practically

guarantee the status quo; and Nasrullah in Lebanon is ready to rumble....And Russia is hanging around the region, too....

[dennis4868]

8. Because I do not have....

a deep understanding of politics in Lebanon and Egypt, can you explain your post for a dummy like me :-)

[Gloria]

13. Lebanon guided by the Nasrullah factor--Asia Times

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GB26Ak03.html

Feb 26, 2005

Lebanon guided by the Nasrullah factor
By Sami Moubayed

DAMASCUS - Any person who was in Beirut on May 24, 2000, the day Hezbollah liberated South Lebanon, understands how immensely popular the enigmatic Hasan Nasrullah is in the country's Muslim, and particularly Shi'ite, community. Any person watching his speech five years later, this month, after the US started to press for the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, and the disarming of Hezbollah, of which Nasrullah is the head, knows how easy it might be for the United States to get Syria to leave Lebanon, but how difficult, if not impossible, it would be to disarm or weaken the Shi'ites.

snip

Hezbollah described the Ashura march this year as "a massive rally in defense of the resistance". "We gather today to express the people's will to protect the resistance movement against all attempts that aim at eliminating its presence and ending its role," Nasrullah said.

And that is exactly what Nasrullah will do: work for the protection of his interests, those of Syria, and the Shi'ites of Lebanon, against all external meddling by the US.


****


What I read about Egypt was that the deck is stacked so that nothing will change even if there are "open" elections.

Same with Saudi Arabia....they had municipal elections (no women allowed) but the results really didn't amount to much.

There is a move in Kuwait to give women the vote, but who knows what will come of it.

[rodeodance]

9. I was surprized by him tonight. my ears purked up.

[McCamy Taylor]

10. Keithe works for GE and he probably wants to anchor NBC News

But for him to buy "the Bush Doctrine"? Man, I have some swamp land I want to sell him. Crap, I thought Olberman had a clue. Guess I overestimated him.

[Catchawave]

28. Wasn't he being sarcastic ?

He's intelligent enough to realize "nothing" is working in the Middle East!

[WhirlyGirl]

36. Yeah, Catch -- "somebody" needs to watch the show again at midnight...

... and listen more closely. Keith never endorsed the notion that it was the Bush doctrine at work.

He reported -- as a newsman is supposed to do -- that others hold that opinion.

Once again, by dropping off all the qualifiers and de-contexualizing (and misattributing) a statement within a report, the initiator of the thread is attempting to sow divisiveness among KO's viewers.

Sorry, ain't gonna work. Countdowners are smarter than the average news consumers.

[dennis4868]

39. WhirlyGirl....

if I am wrong, then I am sorry. But I watched the segment and Keith said that Bush's doctrine seems to be working....i heard him say that and it shocked me and made me MAD! The intent of this thread is not meant to do anything, trust me.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dennis4868]

46. "Your title is irresponsible."

that is what I heard....if you get the transcript and prove I am wrong I will be more than happy to remove it....

[WhirlyGirl]

57. "If you get the transcript and prove I am wrong..." ~ Uh, NO, Dennis...

... that's not how it works.

*YOU* put your foot in your mouth, it's not *MY* job to remove it.

PS - Nowhere in tonight's blog of the show by KEITH'S OWN STAFF is your claim reflected.

NOWHERE.

[Catchawave]

55. You are so right about Countdown fans.....

...not quite as hostile as the Faux Fans.....we just want the freaking truth! Right!

[Goldmund]

67. Are you in a James Bond novel or something?

attempting to sow divisiveness among KO's viewers?!?!?!?!

hahahahahaha

Watch out, that Dennis has already sown divisiveness among other shows' viewers. He's sowing that divisiveness like it's carrot seeds, handfuls at a time!

[WhirlyGirl]

93. You two make an interesting tag team, Goldmund.

[Goldmund]

95. That's because the same dark force sent us here, to divide...

...the viewers of KO after we were done shattering Friends viewers to a million pieces.

[Clark2008]

12. Actually, he still got it right in his promo leading up to the question:

He said that the changes are a result of the the former prime minister's assassination.
It was the guest - the so-called "media expert" - that said that it's working - Keith just asked the question.
Problem is that most Americans don't have a good, fundamental knowledge of Middle Eastern affairs.
The fact is that the Lebanese people think that Bush and Israel are behind the assassination and are pissed.
Let them have their two minutes of celebration because it won't last. I don't think Keith is making that point - he's just interviewing a guest.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

18. So Keith did not actually say that the "Bush Doctrine" is working?

[dennis4868]

19. I believe his words were....

that the * doctrine "seems to be working."

[Clark2008]

21. His words were a question, too.

But, give it a day.

I just read several online Lebanese newspapers - not a word about Bush (other than Americans killing Iraqis, but that's another story) in any of the pieces regarding the resignations.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

22. So then he is still on the side of reason and truth then?

I hope he is. We cannot afford another mediawhore.

[Clark2008]

24. For right now, today, the "truth" is about the question of whether the

Bush doctrine is working.
In other words, the question for today is: "Is the Bush Doctrine working." It's the truth that that is the question.
However, that will change.
I have many Arabic (including Lebanese) friends (and a former husband who is Arabic). The truth is that Bush had not a part in the world to do with it, directly, but he is being blamed for the assassination as it helps Israel.

Edited for clarity

[rayofreason]

70. Walid Jumblat

What do your friends have to say about Walid Jumblat's quote in the Washington Post? Do they believe he said what he is reported to have said? According to the Washington Post -

"It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq," explains Jumblatt. "I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world." Jumblatt says this spark of democratic revolt is spreading. "The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it."

[WhirlyGirl]

59. The problem was in KO's placing "PROSPECT" at the beginning of of the...

... segment decription -- and the phrase, "IS HAVING AN EFFECT" at the end -- separated by a half-dozen parenthetical expressions and qualifiers.

It wasn't a sentence (even lacked a *PREDICATE,* facryinoutloud) -- so how could it have constituted the statement represented by Dennis' oversimplified-to-the-point-of-distortion PARAPHRASE which titled this discussion?

Take a look at what Webster's has to say about the word *PROSPECT* as distinguished from similar nouns:
- - -
synonyms
*PROSPECT,*
OUTLOOK,
ANTICIPATION,
FORETASTE
mean an advance realization of something to come.
*PROSPECT* implies expectation of a particular event, condition, or development of definite interest or concern <the prospect of a quiet weekend>.
OUTLOOK suggests a forecasting of the future <a favorable outlook for the economy>.
ANTICIPATION implies a prospect or outlook that involves advance suffering or enjoyment of what is foreseen <the anticipation of her arrival>.
FORETASTE implies an actual though brief or partial experience of something forthcoming <the frost was a foretaste of winter>.
- - -

KO obviously used *PROSPECT* in the sense of a POSSIBILITY -- but even THEN qualified the possibility six ways to Sunday!

[rayofreason]

69. In fact...

...aren't the Lebanese (and many others) blaming the Syrians for Hariri's murder?

[mseltzer]

102. The fact is

that the Lebanese people think that Bush and Israel are behind the assassination and are pissed.

Do you have any evidence to support this "fact"?

[OETKB]

14. Sorry the sun does not revolve around the earth

Any progress towards peace is in spite of US policy, not because of it. Our intervention is adding to increased conflict, not reversing it. Political changes do not depend just on what the United States does. There are a few other players on the field.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

15. Sellout is more like it, if so?!?

:argh:

If Keith tows the line and accepts that democracy is "working" in the Middle East, then he's a sellout. I hope that he is not one and he is still on our side.

[Just Me]

16. Aw, f*ck!!! Someone slipped him the kool-aid.

:cry:

[Deja Q]

17. When will * topple Saudi Arabia, the BIGGEST country in the M.E.?

Or will they be allowed to remain as they are because of their one asset anybody over there would ever give a damn about?

[paineinthearse]

20. KO has turned into the KOol-aid kid?????

:mad:

[Clark2008]

23. Can you people not accept that the story will change?

Remember, during the election fraud issues, he'd give one side a chance to speak one night and the other side the next?
This story is longer developing, but he will speak to others who don't agree, is my guess.
I like that he doesn't have pros and cons yelling over each other so we can actually hear and digest what they're saying.
The guest was a shill, for the most part, but he did ask that we be cautious. We should - it will change, sometimes overnight.

[Catchawave]

25. You're totally right about KO....

..developing story :)

He still sends us subliminal messages, like that Bush clip you'd never see on FAUX...LOL

[Clark2008]

26. Thanks. It's just that I don't see Keith as a "left winger" reporter...

I see him as a reporter - the old-fashioned kind that gathers info on all sides of a story, not from just one viewpoint. And, today, right now, in the wave of the NY Times editorial, the question is, "Is the Bush Doctrine working?"

I think the answer is a combination of "no" and "in Lebanon, it's not even an issue;" however, for the consumption of viewers in the United States (who don't know shit about the Middle East), the question about Shrub has to be asked and should be asked by real reporters.

KO is a real reporter. And the only one on television who develops long-running stories, asks pertinent questions of both sides and hammers home a point.

The point, in as far as Lebanon is concerned, isn't there to be hammered, yet.

[WhirlyGirl]

47. You're right, Clark: He's a straight up newsman w/ a healthy skepticism...

... which is extremely useful in his business.

[ucmike]

27. the emphasis was on "seems to be working"

it wasn't a sellout piece. there were questions about the stability of the situation and the constant change. it also asked in the intro if it was just lucky timing. they also pointed out that for some reason bushco isn't crowing about it.

that's how i saw it anyway.

its not fair to expect olberman to always be on our side, all the time, on every issue. i don't have a problem with "call them as i see them" as long as its honest and objective, which he seems to be.

a lot of people here are very knee jerk and it reminds me sometimes of what we always accuse the other side of.

[Clark2008]

29. Exactly.

See my post just above yours.

[Catchawave]

30. thank you for your thoughts....

KO's a real journalist who also enjoys eating Faux News for breakfast!

[DemonFighterLives]

37. That's about how I saw it

Keith asked whether it was just luck or luck with a nudge or something like that. He and the other guy did list Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. I am sure the backlash and blowback will be on there way soon. Condi was out there raising hell with Syria as well.
Keith asked why the administration wasn't crowing about it. I think it is because they are gloating quietly today and the sh*tstorm starts tomorrow. Keith missed it to, because there were some heralding W's prowess.
Welcome to DU!

[WhirlyGirl]

65. The wording was, "..just good luck - or good luck that's the residue of...

... GOOD DESIGN?"

------
<< Keith asked whether it was just luck or luck with a nudge or something like that. >> DemonFighterLives

[DemonFighterLives]

74. thank you

I knew it was good luck or good luck because of knucklehead * something. :)

[WhirlyGirl]

82. The issue to be examined being whether all this "democracy" breaking out..

... in the Middle East was actual "freedom on the move"; and, if so, whether it was in any way attributable to what Keith called Bush's "reverse Domino Theory."

The writer Steven Weisman, Keith's guest, seemed to think it was too early to tell whether all this activity would result -- long term -- in greater or less stability for the region.

At the conclusion of the segment, we were left with nothing but questions... all in all, not a ringing endorsement of Bush's Middle East policies, as Dennis' subject line would have us believe.

[Stirk]

31. That's not what the "Bush Doctrine" was about at all.

It's about hegemony. Same old gameplan, but more frankly stated than usual. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall the Bush Doctrine as being one of preventive war in defense of the US, to ensure the permanent dominance of the US by stopping other countries from obtaining WMD.

That doesn't have anything to do with democracy.

[dennis4868]

32. Yep.....

it only became all about democracy in the middle east once everyone figured out that Bush and his scum WH lied to us about WMD and that Iraq was no threat at all to the US before the illegal invasion of Iraq.

[LynnTheDem]

33. There is not one democratic nation in the entire ME, so maybe KO could

explain better WTF he means.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dennis4868]

38. Me, an Internet provocateur?

haha....no, no. I was just suprised by KO tonight, that's all. Hopefully this will be a continuing story for Keith and it will be flshed out more.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. Why don't you admit that you didn't hear or understand KO correctly....

...that way you can save what little face is sliding off your skull.

[WhirlyGirl]

54. Fortunately, I have something you may NOT have: a TAPE of the broadcast...

... Which I listened to FOUR TIMES.

Keith in no way, shape, or form stated what the thread's initiator claims in the above subject line.

The title prefacing this discussion is, simply, w r o n g.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

72. Nice job! Well done! :-)

[dv8]

73. Could you please make an MP3 of your tape

I'd like to hear this too.

[WhirlyGirl]

88. I don't know how :-( There will be a TRANSCRIPT posted on Countdown's site

either later today or tomorrow.

Mash this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3719710/

and select COUNTDOWN, March 1, TUESDAY

---
<< Could you please make an MP3 of your tape
I'd like to hear this too. >> dv8

[AliceWonderland]

35. You can't "turn a country into a democracy"

Democracy happens from the bottom up, and extends through the fabric of society. I would not call Iraq a democracy (duh). Rubber-stamp elections do not equal democracy, if democracy is what you're looking for. Even if you could possibly impose democracy, you're certainly not going to do it by adding to the structural violence of an already war-torn society.

Though I suppose there's no point even dignifying this with a response, it's so absurd.

[KoKo]

48. Well...that's great news! We can rest easily...PNAC was correct...we

just didn't "get" their vision. Okay...that's great...thanks for the report.

[CBHagman]

49. One thing the story got wrong...

...was the suggestion that the administration was being extremely quiet about how things were going in the Middle East and not showing any tendency to brag. Actually, there was a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing today, at which Wolfowitz and representatives from CENTCOM and NATO testified, and they did indeed talk about how things are supposed to be improving in the Middle East. To be fair, some of them (I think General Abizaid was one) said that it didn't mean things weren't going to be difficult from here on in. But there was distinct back-slapping there, or at least that's how I heard it.

I suppose C-SPAN will run the hearing and other DUers can check it out.

Anyway, as for the Middle East, it's sort of like the weather in Buffalo: Just wait a minute and things could change.

[Clark2008]

52. Maybe Keith was reading the Middle Eastern newspapers online

because they certainly aren't reporting that it had anything to do with Bush - because it didn't. ;)

[mmonk]

53. Unfortunately, that's how people are viewing events

in the middle east.

[dennis4868]

60. Okay.....

I learned my lesson the hard way...don't knock KO on DU no matter what he says or else...okay guys, I learned my lesson.....won't happen again. The funny thing is, I love watching Keith....he is the only one I can watch.

[KnowerOfLogic]

61. I can not let this BS go unanswered. Any reforms that occur are not due

to Arabs saying "Hey, Iraq has democracy; we want some too!" They are due to that fact that anti-american, anti-israel, islamicist militants have gained a great deal of support since Bush's crusade started, and they are getting within striking distance of overthrowing their dictators, which they see as aligned with or as puppets of the US; these rulers are responding to pressures from anti-american reactionaries, not to pressures from democracy loving liberals!!!!!!

Will no major MSM outlet report and explain this???? Not only that, but all reforms so far proposed or enacted, have been nothing but show, in the hopes of placating both the islamists and the US. Just read an article in AlJazeera the other day which said that the elections proposed by egyptian president mubarik will only allow candidates from some 'approved' list. And other elective bodies in the middle east have only 'advisory' power, or some such BS... Please; i which the talking heads would do just a *tiny* bit of investigative reporting, before obediently mouthing the Bush line.

[dennis4868]

62. I agree....

with you....great post!

[dennis4868]

64. UInfortunately....

the MSM will give Bush all the credit even though this was NOT his intent in attacking Iraq....had absolutely nothing to do with DEMOCRACY!

[WhirlyGirl]

78. Just so long as you remember: the BS emanates from Dennis - not Countdown.

His very subject line is a CHARACTERIZATION, not a quote.
That's the standard right-wing smear strategy:

"Al Gore says he invented the Internet(s)."
"Olberman says the Bush Doctrine is working."

The similarity in approach is all too familiar.

[RevCheesehead]

63. If you're gonna dis Keith, you could at least spell his name right.

O-L-B-E-R-M-A-N-N.

I'm going to presume that you heard incorrectly. I watched the show, and didn't hear that at all.

[dennis4868]

66. Like I said....

If I am wrong than I am wrong....i can admit a mistake....but the way I heard it was that he was saying that at least with the events of this week, the Bush doctrine seems to be working. I hope I am wrong because I love Keith and his objectivity.

[WhirlyGirl]

68. In otherwords, Dennis, you're satisfied that your work here is done.

The Bushies NEVER fear to smear.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. You didn't hear it very well, did you? Fess up and move on...thanks!

[WhirlyGirl]

96. I demolished Dennis' DISTORTIONS with actual Keith quotes.

What little Dennis had going for him when he posted that CANARD is now ashes.

[JCMach1]

79. Absolutely not, it's the Demographic pressure that is happening

here...

Young people are standing-up for Democracy and change.

[dansolo]

87. I though the Bush Doctrine was pre-emptive action?

Spreading of Democracy was only an afterthought.

[leftofthedial]

94. Bush Doctrine seems to be working on Olbermann

looks like to me

[WhirlyGirl]

97. And you're prepared to state that, based on specious hearsay???

[leftofthedial]

100. I'm prepared to say almost anything

based on almost anything

if the mood strikes me

[ComerPerro]

99. I heard this shit on the Daily Show too

Bush Doctrine? Its bullshit.

Conservatives don't give a fuck about freedom, human rights, or democracy. If they did, why would they ally themselves with Saudi Arabia.

9/11 is the best thing that ever happened to Bush.

[WhirlyGirl]

101. That...

... and the Ohio election rip-off.

Neocons' one-two punch to representative government in the U.S.
The latter, intentional; the former, merely opportunistic.

--------
<< 9/11 is the best thing that ever happened to Bush. >> ComerPerro

[ComerPerro]

103. Open to interpretation

And, it depends what you mean by "opportunistic"

[Moderator]

104. Locking

This has turned into a flame war.