72 people should be happy today.

[Deja Q]

The same supreme court that ultimately decided that * should win in 2000 despite evidence, including an obvious "popular vote", showing Gore to be the real winner decided that anyone who commits a sufficiently heinous crime before the age of 18 should not be given the death penalty.

I'll withold my judgment until later. In theory it's good, but in theory it's also bad. It depends on which theory you hear at the time and what mood you're in.

[Misunderestimator]

1. It's a step in the right direction to abolish the death penalty altogether

so, it's ok with me.

[BuyingThyme]

2. Speaking of * and the 72...

How many (if any) were Texas kids?

[TOhioLiberal]

25. They showed a graphic...

...on CBS news this evening. Texas has 29.

[BuyingThyme]

26. Not surprised.

It makes you wonder how may Texas children * killed unconstitutionally.

[Journeyman]

3. Here's a thread with some thoughts I had on it today. . .

What are we going to do with these criminals? . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3200154#3200265

[Misunderestimator]

4. It costs less to incarcerate them than to kill them...

there should be another solution than killing. Of course, letting someone out after a short sentence is not the right solution... but killing will never be right... IMO

[retnavyliberal]

14. Where does that stat come from??? The logic fails me. N/T

[Misunderestimator]

15. Because of the number of appeals allowed if you have a death sentence

you are more than welcome to look it up yourself.

[retnavyliberal]

28. If I am convicted and not sentenced to death...

I can't appeal all the way up to the Supreme Court if I have and issue worthy of appeal with my case? Reading a lower post they talk about jury selection, sentencing phase, etc all of which I get if accused of a serious crime. So it seems to me that all the same costs can apply.

[ultraist]

18. Capital Punishment is far more expensive than life in prison

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html

The Death Penalty is Expensive

Capital punishment is a far more expensive system than one whose maximum penalty is life in prison.

- A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life imprisonment.
- In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life imprisonment.
- Studies in California, Kansas, Maryland, and North Carolina all have concluded that capital punishment is far more expensive than keeping someone in prison for life.

The greatest costs of the death penalty are incurred prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings were abolished, the death penalty system would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.

[Misunderestimator]

29. Thank you, ultraist... I know I can depend on you to do the work...

:)

[sandnsea]

7. Find a solution

to the problem. Let me repeat, find a solution to the problem. The problem being, determining the characteristics of a repeat offender and the criteria that would keep them locked up for life.

The death penalty has nothing to do with it.

[Igel]

5. I don't like "evolving standards" business: it means that

once things "evolve" in a certain direction, the Supreme Court finishes the evolution and locks the process.

Imagine it going the other way: Gay marriage is adopted in some states, but more and more states outlaw it; it goes to SCOTUS. Wham: SCOTUS claims "evolving standards", and suddenly it's permanently banned.

[amjucsc]

27. To the best of my knowledge...

Evolving standards is a doctrine developed exclusively for 8th Amendment cases, and wouldn't apply to something like gay marraige (which would most likely be challenged under the 14th Amendment equal protection clause)

Of course I could be wrong.

[Orangepeel]

6. the only "bad" theories I've heard is silly, IMO

On the news today, someone described as a "conservative legal scholar" claimed that gangs will now use underage assassins because they can't get the death penalty. Does anybody really think that gang members are factoring in the death penalty when they commit murders? It isn't a lifestyle that encourages thinking about the future. Does anybody really believe that a gang boss recruiting an assasin would care at all if the death penalty could be used or not?

[sandnsea]

8. They always have

Maybe they'll stop targeting 14 and 15 year olds now. That would be a benefit, not a problem.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

10. You hit the nail on the head.

And they wonder why offenders are getting younger and younger?? They are prosecuting younger and younger. In my 'community', a 13 y/o kid curses in school, and gets a ticket, possibly referred to the county for 'disorderly conduct'. Next time, throw the book harder, pushing and pushing kids into beliefs that they ARE hardened criminals.

[diamond14]

9. why KILL people, to show people that KILLING is WRONG?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=412&scid=6

Since 1973, 118 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innnocence.


the REALITY: death penalty is just vicious fundi-christian-reTHUGlican garbage....KILLING to show others that KILLING is wrong...and REVENGE....mostly used in the South...where the fundies thrive...





Millions Misspent: What Politicians Don't Say About the High Costs of the Death Penalty

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=385

-snip-

Across the country, police are being laid off, prisoners are being released early, the courts are clogged, and crime continues to rise. The economic recession has caused cutbacks in the backbone of the criminal justice system. In Florida, the budget crisis resulted in the early release of 3,000 prisoners. In Texas, prisoners are serving only 20% of their time and rearrests are common. Georgia is laying off 900 correctional personnel and New Jersey has had to dismiss 500 police officers. Yet these same states, and many others like them, are pouring millions of dollars into the death penalty with no resultant reduction in crime.

The exorbitant costs of capital punishment are actually making America less safe because badly needed financial and legal resources are being diverted from effective crime fighting strategies. Before the Los Angeles riots, for example, California had little money for innovations like community policing, but was managing to spend an extra $90 million per year on capital punishment. Texas, with over 300 people on death row, is spending an estimated $2.3 million per case, but its murder rate remains one of the highest in the country.

The death penalty is escaping the decisive cost-benefit analysis to which every other program is being put in times of austerity. Rather than being posed as a single, but costly, alternative in a spectrum of approaches to crime, the death penalty operates at the extremes of political rhetoric. Candidates use the death penalty as a facile solution to crime which allows them to distinguish themselves by the toughness of their position rather than its effectiveness.

The death penalty is much more expensive than its closest alternative--life imprisonment with no parole. Capital trials are longer and more expensive at every step than other murder trials. Pre-trial motions, expert witness investigations, jury selection, and the necessity for two trials--one on guilt and one on sentencing--make capital cases extremely costly, even before the appeals process begins. Guilty pleas are almost unheard of when the punishment is death. In addition, many of these trials result in a life sentence rather than the death penalty, so the state pays the cost of life imprisonment on top of the expensive trial.

[Just Me]

12. Hey, excellent presentation. I should have read it before posting!!!

The visuals combined with the info is excellent!!! :thumbsup:

[diamond14]

16. fundies go crazy....SC prohibited BOTH KILLING mentally retarded AND

killing children....all in a very short period....pat robertson/jerry falwell and other fundies heads must be going NUTS.....

special BONUS plus...the Democratic Governor of Virginia, Mark Warner, is under pressure from the family of a Virginia State sponsored killing....the family claims the man was INNOCENT, yet Virginia KILLED him anyway....

the family has requested that evidence be tested to prove the executed man's innocence...the family will pay for the testing...the Governor is CHOKING on the political repercussions....if the DNA testing PROVES the executed man is innocent ?

if Virginia's Governor approves the DNA testing, it will be the FIRST time that DNA testing was allowed for any state-sponsored killing, AFTER DEATH....the fundi-reTHUGlicans are SHAKING over this one....for years, the State of Virginia has KILLED children, mentally retarded people, and mostly Black people....in the last few years, Virginia had to let 4 innocent people out of death row.....

Virginia's DEMOCRATIC Governor has also implemented the most advanced DNA testing program in the country....several real KILLERS have turned up on the matching data base, people picked up repetitively for burgalry, rape, robbery....and SURPRISE, with matching DNA, they were also MURDERERS (that's how one death row inmate got out)....Democratic Governor is trying to clean up the old racist south...and HOPEFULLY, he'll release DNA from a possible innocent DEAD man's case......hopefully...the first POST-EXECUTION DNA testing...what if that person was INNOCENT?

[ultraist]

19. Great post diamond14!

Another ugly fact about the death penalty:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/racialprejudices.html

The Death Penalty is Racially Biased
Since 1977, the overwhelming majority of death row defendants (over 80%) have been executed for killing white victims, although African-Americans make up about 50% percent of all homicide victims.

In a 1990 report, the non-partisan U.S. General Accounting Office found "a pattern of evidence indicating racial disparities in the charging, sentencing, and imposition of the death penalty." The study concluded that a defendant was several times more likely to be sentenced to death if the murder victim was white. This confirms the findings of many other studies that, holding all other factors constant, the single most reliable predictor of whether someone will be sentenced to death is the race of the victim.

Underlying the statistical evidence is the differential treatment of African-Americans at every turn. From initial charging decisions to plea bargaining to jury sentencing, African-Americans are treated more harshly when they are defendants, and their lives are accorded less value when they are victims. Furthermore, all-white or virtually all-white juries are still commonplace in many localities.

Racial Bias Facts:
con't

[Just Me]

11. I celebratethe pro-human rights and the pro-civil rights decisions.

:bounce:

The death penalty is really just a revenge killing anyway. It hasn't deterred violent crime (esp. in the domestic area), it doesn't cost less taxpayer money (since the public defense still costs big bucks), and it isn't any guarantee of a real punishment (since none of us really know what happens upon death; hell, it could actually be a relief for many folks).

This decision didn't prohibit the death penalty altogether but it at least is a step in the right direction.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. They could only be eligible for the death penalty if tried as an adult

If they had been molested, the law would define them as minors...I think laws that define a person as an adult for one offense, but a minor for another are a sign of how fucking insane our society is.

[ultraist]

21. It is insane

13 of the 22 child executions were carried out in TX. SC, OK, VA,GA, and MO were the other states that executed children. 19 states allowed it.

Since 2000, only five countries in the world are known to have executed juvenile offenders: China, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Iran, Pakistan, and the United States. Pakistan and China have abolished the juvenile death penalty, but there have been problems in nationwide compliance with the law.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/juveniles/factsheet.html


###
This ruling to outlaw child executions was long overdue.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. and what color were they?

[ultraist]

24. A disproportionately high number of Black children were executed

12 of the executed children were children of color. (11 B, 1 L). The other 10 were White. http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/juveniles/juvexec.html

Stats on the 72 CURRENT death row children who have been spared execution:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=204&scid=27

AGE AT TIME OF CRIME RACE
Race/ Number/ %
Native Amer. 1 1%
Asian 2 2%
Black 29 40%
Latino 15 21%
White 25 35%
Total number: 72

[Misunderestimator]

30. Jesus...

[AnnInLa]

17. Four of the happy are here in Louisiana

Of course, on their 18th birthday, kids can now be given a rifle and sent to kill terra-ists in Iraq. Kids one day, grown-ups the next day.

[Mr_Spock]

20. I'd rather be dead than spend life in prison

What a terrible punishment they will receive now!

[scarletlib]

22. this is one of the best decisions they have made in a long while.

This will at least put us one step closer to most of the civilized world when it comes to the death penalty.

Children, and mentally brain studies do show that does include teenagers, should not be executed for crimes they commit.

For those who cry out for revenge, I simply say that death is a shortcut and an end to punishment. Think about it. 20-30 years to life in a prison gives a person a long, long time to think about what he did. Maybe that person can grow and come to realize what he did was wrong. Maybe there will be repentence and real suffering and regret for what he did. Maybe he can change and become a better person and by his suffering make the world a better place spiritually.

The truly great religions all teach forgiveness and not revenge.

How many here have read a great american short story called "A Man Without A Country"? It is by Edward Everett Hale and written circa 1917.

The premise is that a man was a traitor to the US and was sentenced to spend the rest of his life on a naval ship never to set foot on the shores of the USA again. Over the course of many long years he came to deeply regret his actions. He truly suffered emotionally. His country forgave him and remitted his sentence but he chose to stay on the ship as penance until he died. I read that story in the 8th grade. It made me cry.

I believe, that unless someone is mentally ill or brain damaged (sociopath) that there is always hope for redemption.