I'm going to see the US lose superpower status in my lifetime.

[Bouncy Ball]

I'm sure of it. I used to wonder but now I know. For economic and foreign policy reasons, we are on our way down.

The EU will become a real force. Look for a South American country or two to vastly improve over the next ten to twenty years. Our currency will keep dropping in value.

Other countries will continue the pulling away from the US that has already started.

Maybe it's for the best. Maybe my country needs to eat some humble pie.

[deek]

1. Check your tense.........eom

.

[mermaid]

2. Maybe THEN We Can Finally Have A Revolution And Toss The Bastards OUT n/t

[priller]

3. Don't forget China

The are coming on strong very quickly.

[Protagoras]

12. India, China, the EU

and even a revitalized Russia all have a lot potential....

It's too bad too, cuz we'd have a lot to offer the world if we could pull our collective heads out of our greedy, imperialistic asses. (not speaking for anyone here on DU of course).

[Sparkly]

20. I agree... n/t

[ultraist]

44. And Japan, which has the #2 economy

[PROGRESSIVE1]

184. Should a revitalized Russia join the EU, America will..

be crapping in it's neo-con pants.

[MadisonProgressive]

119. You forgot Poland!

[two gun sid]

4. You are very right.

EU. China. Brazil. India. All those countries are going to leave us in the dust.

[boneygrey]

5. Do you honestly want this? n/t

[Bouncy Ball]

13. Where did I mention

a desire for this? Or a desire against it?

[boneygrey]

17. Maybe my country needs to eat some humble pie. n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boneygrey]

26. Bush is not my little buddy

and I resent the implication. I expect an apology. NOW!!!!!

That being said, I still like my country.

[Bouncy Ball]

27. Well, wait for it.

Your implication is that I do NOT like my country. And I resent THAT assumption.

Sooooo we're even.

[boneygrey]

28. Then why

do we need to eat humble pie? Yes we screw up now and then, but overall there is no other place I'd rather be.

[Bouncy Ball]

30. It's not about YOU or ME.

It's about our GOVERNMENT.

Get it?

It's about our dealings with the world, it's about how we've been structuring our economy and job market for the last fifty years or so.

It's much bigger than individual people.

[boneygrey]

33. Dude relax

I'm playing Devil's advocate.:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boneygrey]

42. I just did an advanced search on your user name.

What exactly does that mean?

[Warren DeMontague]

84. Did somebody say "Little Buddy"?

[boneygrey]

114. LOL

Now that's funny.:headbang:

[Shakespeare]

115. Wow, way to be demanding.

"NOW!" ??

:eyes:

[Bouncy Ball]

159. I know, I had a little chuckle at that.

NOW!!!! LOL

[boneygrey]

173. Sorry

I was in a pissy mood.:crazy:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

174. Too funny...

(whistles)

[Bouncy Ball]

176. LOL!!

AH! There it is again! The Edgar Winters Band! Whatever does it mean when that shows up???

:thumbsup:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

177. The name of the album for which this is the cover, is

"The Only Come Out at Night". It was supposed to be our little inside joke by now, and you've SPOILED it, dammit! grrr

[Bouncy Ball]

178. Oops!

Sorry!!!!!

[boneygrey]

181. I believe its "They" n/t

[donheld]

170. This country has been needing some humble pie for a long time.

[Stirk]

35. I do.

I think a decline in US international power would be the best thing that's ever happened to the average US citizen.

We're living under thinly-masked imperialism at present, and imperialism is only good for a very tiny minority. Is the average British or French citizen better off without their respective empires? I'd say so.

[Bouncy Ball]

37. That's why I said in my original post

it maybe could be good for the US to eat a little humble pie.

If any country ever gets too big for its britches, that's NOT a good thing. And the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

I don't care to see such a hard fall, but I fear it is inevitable at this point.

[Stirk]

41. I can see that side. There are plain old practical benefits to it as well.

What did the empire ever do for you or me? Besides demanding our brothers and sisters go off to fight in foreign wars, I mean. And when that military might is used mainly to secure cheap labor for Corporate America, undermining domestic labor and the middle class... well...

This empire is a blight on the average American citizen. I can't wait for it to deflate, personally.

[boneygrey]

48. I just did an advanced search on your user name. You aren't fooling anyone

I still want to know what you mean by that. In case you can't tell Big Brother, I'm pissed.

[Bouncy Ball]

49. You couldn't have.

You don't have the capability.

[boneygrey]

52. You don't understand

That was my question to you.

[Bouncy Ball]

57. Oh no, I understood.

[Swamp Rat]

53. :-D

[Zenlitened]

103. Genuinely pissed? Or merely the sort of "manufactured outrage"...

... that seems so fashionable these days?

[Canadian Socialist]

6. Already Canada

has started to pull away. We are starting to sell our oil to China, and working on other trade partners for lumber and technology. Japan is becoming one of our major partners. Soon, if my government is smart enough, we will cut all ties to the U.S. and become major partners with Europe and Asia.

[Bouncy Ball]

16. I suspected that was true of Canada.

But didn't have the facts at hand, so hesitated to make a statement about Canada.

[Canadian Socialist]

29. What bothers me

are the conservatives/Bush lovers here that say that Canada will lose because our government has rejected the Star Wars initiative (or whatever they are calling it this decade). Maybe it is time we pulled away. On my part, I seriously, really want nothing to do with American administration anymore. Now, I dearly love their culture and the American people. But, I want nothing to do with their military "might" and their alleged diplomacy. I would rather we aligned ourselves with Europe and/or Asia. The U.S.A. is a dead empire. And the sooner we divested ourselves from this dead horse, the better.

[Why Syzygy]

82. I can see your point

but don't give up on us yet. We've been through hard times before.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to distance themselves from the current state of affairs.

There is something else to consider. We are a dynamic country.
I won't believe that current conditions will last.

If they do, we are a dead horse indeed.
(I don't believe it.)

[xpat]

106. Congrats to the Canucks for refusing Star Wars II the other day. n/t

[wrate]

123. Don't forget Mexico! We´d be proud to have you as business partners! n/t

[Protagoras]

7. When you abandon the cultural

and financial high ground...the only thing that remains is Military Might. When you only have that, the result is pretty predictable. Too bad so many people have to suffer and die as we fail to learn this ever repeating lesson of history.

[DELUSIONAL]

8. The probability is high -- at the rate it is going

the "it" cult that has taken over the US and the rest of the non-cult member don't seem to give a damn.

However, the US was built on theft from and murder of the indigenous people who first discovered America and then developed complex cultures.

At some point karma is going to catch up with America -- the world already sees the warts.

[boneygrey]

14. Do we give it back?

Be serious.

[Bouncy Ball]

18. I think you should be serious.

Delusional never said anything about giving it back. You sure like to jump to conclusions don't you?

[Egalitarian]

54. Yes, give it back

We stole their land and their culture. We should give it back. It is the right thing to do. I'm serious.

[Fenris]

9. Yes. It's the sad fate of all who hear the call of empire.

[flaminbats]

55. what happens in the post imperial era?

Will our nation become more like Rome, Italy, Japan, Germany, France, Britain, Russia, Austria, or Turkey?

All of these examples were once at the center of world empires, and now none are viewed as superpowers.

[Maple]

10. I hesitate to tell you this

but you already have.

[Why Syzygy]

83. I was thinking along the same lines

HOW can we even be referred to as "Superpower"? I don't see it.

The bully is never strong.

If you want to rephrase it to the "one with the biggest guns" and the idiocy to use them, then we have a deal.

[misanthrope]

11. You're watching the beginning right now...

...Count yourself as lucky. Not only are you perceptive enough to realize it as it unfolds, but with any luck, you won't be alive in the latter half of this century to see the results of what's coming.

[wtmusic]

15. "This is the established order of things,

when a nation has grown to such an height of power as to become dangerous to mankind, she never fails to lose her wisdom, her justice, and her moderation, and with these she never fails to lose her power..."

- John Quincy Adams

[Bouncy Ball]

19. Wow.

Eerie words....

[BrklynLiberal]

64. Even the Roman Empires went down the toilet...as will the BFEE

[devinsgram]

90. And do not forget Napoleon

He had the top military force in the world at that time and he was brought down by barbarians. * is bringing our great wonderful country to it's knees and the majority of it's citizens are not even aware of what is happening. Truely sad.:(

[Binka]

98. Friedman Compared Bush To Napoleon On MTP

I said to myself "Self, can you fucking believe what you just heard?" Self replied, "Shitmotherhowdy Tom Fucking Friedman is getting close to speaking the truth."

Then I drank a bunch of bloody Mary's and took a nap.

[merbex]

88. Gotta love that Adams family

Brilliant people

[rockymountaindem]

21. I don't think that will happen.

I do think that we will have several rivals. No single country could be the sole superpower forever, so it was bound to happen since the end of the Soviet Union. I think that China, Russia (or whatever the oligarchs cobble together from the former USSR) and the EU will become considerably more powerful than they are today.

I don't know about anyone coming out of Latin America though. Obviously the first choice there would be Brazil, but they are mired in class differences that even the most cynical American could hardly wrap their heads around. Furthermore they are despoiling the very environment which could be the key to their success. I could be wrong on that one, but I really don't think Latin America will produce a rival for us.

Alternatively, I think India could be the real surprise of the 21st century.

Thankfully, America is so powerful that even if we suffered a collapse now it wouldn't allow anyone else to overtake us. Besides, I think the challenge of competition could help spur the US out of this rut we're currently in. Serious competition with China and India for control of the global stage would probably put the brakes on outsourcing and encourage self-sufficiency.

I hope that I can use my professional career to do what I can to make America as powerful as it can be, and to ensure we use our power for good. I know a lot of people around here are in a period of self-loathing because of the Bush administration, but I wouldn't want any country to ever be more powerful than the United States. I hope we will retain our great power status for the foreseeable future, even as other nations rise to challenge us.

[Bouncy Ball]

23. Question.

About this statement:

Thankfully, America is so powerful that even if we suffered a collapse now it wouldn't allow anyone else to overtake us.

Powerful in what sense? Militarily? Economically? Diplomatically?

[rockymountaindem]

36. All three.

I thought it might be interesting to study international relations outside the US to see how people I might be dealing with in the future view our country. I remember a poster one of my high school teachers had in her classroom which said "the best view of your soul if from just beyond the perimiter looking back".

With that in mind, here I am at the University of Toronto, studying IR. What I've found is that the US casts a very broad shadow across the entire globe. Before the Canadians talk about their policy, they focus on the US first, so they can see how to react.

Economically we are unchallenged. People here paint a black picture of the trade deficit. It is a problematic issue, but imports still count for only 8% of the US economy. The problem is that the ordinary person sees a great deal of these imports in daily life, such as clothes, TVs etc. However, the US is still the most powerful economy on earth. For all of China's bluster and prowess, they still have only 10% of our output. When it comes to per capita GDP, the closest any country has come to us since WWII was Japan, which achieved 80% of our economic "quality of life" in the early 80s, and has since slipped away from us. The main threat to the US economy I see is our huge deficit and debt. I think that a currency crisis is a grave issue, and one that could result in a significant setback.

Militarily we are leaps and bounds ahead of everyone. Ever seen those bar graphs of military spending? If the US were as tall as a person, our closest competitor, China, wouldn't even make it up to our knee. And when you consider how much we spend and don't disclose, I'm sure the margin increases significantly.

So diplomatically, the US usually gets what it wants. Yes, the Iraq war is a glaring exception. But during the 90s the international community couldn't organize a peace-keeping mission without US backing or support of some kind. It was America which commanded respect in the Mideast peace process. Arafat and Rabin shook hands with Clinton, not John Major or Boris Yeltsin or Deng Chaioping. After 9/11, all those other countries were happy to offer help because we still command respect. I believe that we will once again command respect once our country gets the kind of leadership it deserves because the ideals which lie at the heart of what it means to be America are the noblest in the world. It is only when we don't act on them that disaster befalls us. Therefore, our ideals represent an as-of-now untapped reserve of international goodwill that others will respond to when we actually open the spigot again. Even one of my most cynical anti-American Canadian friends admitted that the founding priciples of the US are the pinnacle of human aspiration. I couldn't believe she said that.

I hope that answers your question. In my view, America was, is and could be as great as it wants and decides to be.

On edit:
I read your earlier post on how you don't like the way we've been structuring our economy and job market for "the past 50 years". The problem is not as deep as you fear. The years from 1945 to 1973 were the best in world and US history economically. It's only been since about 1975-1980 that we've been stagnating. And remember, Clinton created 20 million jobs. I'm not saying he's responsible personally, but the potential is here. If we had to do WWII all over again right now, with the complete re-tooling of industry and economy to a wartime footing, I'm confident we could accomplish it. Just because the Bush administration is deciding to fight the Iraq war on the cheap (with the inherant sacrifices) doesn't mean it has to be this way.

[Maple]

45. Here's a hint

So far, you haven't learned a damned thing from your time in Canada.

All the 'military might' you have...and you couldn't prevent 911...and you can't take tiny defenceless Iraq.

Economically, you are standing on the Mount Everest of debt.

It's called 'imperial overstretch'. It took out Rome and it took out the British Empire.

And it took out America.

[rockymountaindem]

47. Wrong.

9/11 was as much a law-enforcement problem as it was a military one. All the fighter jets and nuclear arms in the world aren't going to stop 19 guys from hiding in our country illegally. Only a beefed up INS and Border Patrol could do that. And, if you'll notice, we did "take" Iraq. Two times. There are two ways we could defeat the insurgency there now. By softening our presence and withdrawing to secure bases, or by dropping 1 million troops there instead of the 150,000 we have now. We could do that with a draft.

I did say that I felt the debt we have is a threat. All I said was I didn't think the trade deficit (which is seperate from the debt) was as big a threat to national security as people say it is. I did say that the debt problem could hurt us, but it won't be the complete end of the US. In my original post I did say I think we will suffer some kind of setback, but that we will not cease to be a superpower.

Imperial overstretch did not take out the Roman and British empires. It's hardly that simple. Rome ended because half of its citizens decided to stop thinking of themselves as Romans. As you'll recall, the half of the empre which decided they liked the benefits of high civilization lasted for another 1000 years, falling only to the Turkish/Islamic juggernaut that wasn't going to be stopped come hell or high water. As for Britain, WWII really cramped their style. Losing India was a compromise they made to ensure a steady supply of Indian troops during the war (the Nazis were actively recruiting there). After Britain lost the jewel in the crown, everyone started asking themselves why they were so desperately clinging to Kenya and British Somaliland. If you'll note, Britain still has the world's strongest currency and its 4th largest economy.

[ultraist]

65. 9-11 was a FAILURE of BUSH! It was not the fault of Law enforcement

He IGNORED the warnings. I cannot believe anyone would blame law enforcement for 9-11 and let Bush off the hook.

The US economy cannot exist without other countries' investments and LOANS. If these countries pull out or call their loans do, as they are beginning to, our economy will collapse.

As far as the military capacity of other nations, that's clear, some DO have the capacity to pose a real threat to the US, like Korea or a rogue terrorist group.

[davhill]

78. A better historical analogy

To the US today would be 16th century Spain. With the resources of its huge American empire it was economicly as much of a super power in Europe as we are in the world today. Bad leadership and wasteful wars frittered away that lead and by the 19th century Spain was a backwater.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

95. "Imperial overstretch did not take out the Roman and British empires"

Read Chalmers Johnson "The Sorrows of Empire"

Read Edward Gibbons "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

You're wrong.

[markmalcom]

50. I realize you're very eager, Maple...but you're a little ahead of yourself

"And it took out America"

....It ain't over 'til it's over

..Don't start dancing on our graves QUITE yet...

[Maple]

56. I'm sorry Rockymountaindem and markmalcolm

but people outside your country, have a better view.

And not the same, perfectly understandable mind you, bias.

Split all the hairs you want, but the world is rearranging itself...quietly and slowly...to carry on without the US.

And this has been going on for some years behind the scenes.

A multipolar world is already the reality.

I know this is difficult for Americans, and you have my sympathy.

But I'd be a lousy friend if I didn't 'give it to you straight'

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[markmalcom]

71. ..and by the way, I suspect you "know" Americans far

less than you imagine...THIS American would WELCOME the strengthening of the EU, or some other benign continent to SHARE the power equally...I'm not on this board because I'm enamoured of the current leadership.

[flaminbats]

66. this strikes me as an argument over a sickly man

shall we bury him or cremate?

Neither have considered finding a cure. The cure for a dying man isn't to make him dig ditches. The cure is to lighten his load, improve his daily habits, and encourage him to rely on others for assistance.

The quick road to death is to alienate all who love him, continue his reckless and unhealthy habits, and do everything alone. America should not be the worlds' only superpower. If our nation paid down some of the debt, carried less of the global burden, and worried more about our nation's security..surely America would become stronger than by following our current path.

[markmalcom]

72. ...My sentiments exactly.

[flaminbats]

74. this will probably never happen

our nation should work with Canada to form a common currency. Even more importantly, Canada and the United States have common security interests. When will the U.S. and Canada form a north American union?

The United States would have to accept a universal health-care system for all citizens, while Canadian taxpayers would have a role in financing our national debt. But ultimately both nations would be safer, stronger economically, and able to adapt to the global challenges of the 21st century.

[Spazito]

91. Thanks, but no thanks

We will continue to have our own currency and work on paying down our debt. Why the hell would we want to finance your mounting debt? We will continue to pursue our policies and beliefs that are based on common responsibilities rather than unilateral power. We are neighbours with different ideas of what we want to see our countries be.


Canadians want nothing to do with anything the bush admin might propose.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[Spazito]

94. Ummm, because Canada will retain it's sovereignty

we are to be considered 'superior'? That is the same attitude the bush admin brings with them and why they are causing the US to lose friends and allies at a rapid rate.

Since when is simply saying no to the US considered a threat? Canadians come on this board to support their fellow liberals in their fight to try and wrest their country back from the neocons and we appreciate the warmth in which we are received.

[markmalcom]

99. First of all, Spaz...it was Flaminbats, not me, who presented the

idea of some sort of Canadian-American "union"...I could care less....What I affirmed was his earlier post regarding "reviving" the "sickly man" rather than planning his funeral...

Secondly, you'd receive a lot more "warmth" if your tone was truly one of "support" rather than of snotty condescension...which, in the main, is what it has been thus far.

[Spazito]

101. Wow, speaking of tone....

LOL. I am surprised you are so touchy but whatever. flaminbats put a perspective forward which involved both Canada and the US. I simply gave another perspective, it is called debate which is what happens on DU.

Nowhere did I say Canada was superior to the US, I did, however, say we are different. Why that seems to bother you I can't imagine. Differences are to be celebrated, they are what makes for a much more interesting world.

[markmalcom]

110. .....Oh my, we're disengenuous!.....No, of course, you don't SAY

you're country is superior..You just inject, with choice of words, etc, that strong implication..

And yes, dear we all know we are "different"...But none of your posts appears to be "celebrating" that fact.:eyes:

[Spazito]

111. LOL, I guess one's take on what constitutes 'superiority'

can differ and we should 'celebrate' that.

[markmalcom]

112. No, it's actually one's take on what constitutes the

snide tone of chauvinism...

BTW,It always makes me laugh when I hear some Euro or Canadian attempt to "explain" the "European" or "Canadian" perspective as if we're so unaware of it

Many - if not most - of us have been hearing about "the Ugly American" since we were children.

For instance, lots of us doubled over with laughter during the mid-eighties when a terror scare kept many Americans from filling the European tourism coffers...None other than Margaret Thatcher was gushing about "missing our "warmth".!...Such a pathetic display!...We all knew that at least half of them couldn't stand us!..(even if they WERE fond of our money!)

..and P.S...you may "celebrate" what you want!

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

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[markmalcom]

124. ..No dear, you're not speaking for "anyone" but yourself ,

judging by the pronounced LACK of intervention here by other Americans on the thread....and you can "take" anyone that you want!

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Ms. Clio]

140. Quit calling me "dear," it's obnoxious and rude

And if you think so many people would agree with your laughable jingoism, then do please post a separate thread about this matter.

I'll make some popcorn and settle back for the show.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Ms. Clio]

158. Oh, now it's "honey" instead of "dear"

Don't call me that, either.

[Ms. Clio]

156. Yes, you do know, but that's okay

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

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[Spazito]

128. Thanks, Ms. Clio!

This Canadian appreciates your comment very much! I have decided not to respond to the poster on his/her unhappiness with Canada as it takes away from the point the OP was making and I didn't want to hijack her thread to dwell on Canadian issues.

[Ms. Clio]

134. No prob, Spazito--I appreciate the Canadians here very much!

I think some people who can't handle the truth about the real evil empire find it easier to lash out at other targets.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

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[Ms. Clio]

151. Gosh, I would think with your alleged 92 percentile GRE

You would know who Clio, not Cleo, is.

P.S. The GRE isn't calculated that way.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

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[Ms. Clio]

155. YOU are going to make cracks about MY spelling and grammar

????

You're a funny funny fellow.

And you haven't the foggiest notion who Clio is, do you?

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

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[Ms. Clio]

165. Hmmm, checking my dictionary, "over-egoed" isn't a word

You're welcome.

[ultraist]

145. Spazito: He/she does NOT speak for all Americans

Just as BUSH does not represent the views of ALL Americans. We did NOT vote for that lying scumbag, nor do we support him.

[Spazito]

146. I know that for sure...

The reason I so enjoy DU is that it educates me about how many Americans really feel about bush and his agenda and my education here has showed me quite clearly many Americans don't support him and are working VERY hard to try and change things. I have always felt warmly welcomed here by the vast majority of American DUers and know as many Americans, if not more, voted for Kerry as voted for bush.

Thank you for your post, it is much appreciated!

:D

[xpat]

107. What's in it for Canada?

It's not at all clear that Canada and the US have the same security interests. Why would Canadians want to help clean up the US debt mess?

[flaminbats]

121. What's in it for the UK to be part of the EU?

A stronger currency, the right for all citizens to move safely through most of North America, and every citizen would pay less in taxes to ultimately get more government services. Canada and the U.S. would have a currency that might be stronger than the EURO.

I listed the debt as one of the disadvantages Canada would face, a disadvantage for the U.S. would be acknowledging Canada as an equal voice in such a union.

But I believe that together a U.S.-Canadian union would have more strength than the EU. I have no facts to back this up, but it is an option I believe both nations should begin considering. Never fear, it will never happen with the Republicans in power!

[Spazito]

130. Your perspective is not one that has not been discussed before

especially the common currency question. As the US dollar falls, it will probably be raised in Canada again as well. I am against it as I see no benefit to Canada to do that and I like our loonie, lol. In terms of Canadian beliefs, history, etc, we are more like our European cousins than our US ones, imo.

I have yet to see a valid reason for Canada to change anything from what we are doing and being but am open to hearing one for sure.

[flaminbats]

133. only one real thing divides Canada and the U.S.

a border. Our language is the same, many of our political views are similar, our currency even has the same name, and with NAFTA we are now part of a single market. We can face our common economic problems, address our common security concerns, and without surrendering any national sovereignty IMO.

I have been to eight different nations, none of which are more alike than the U.S. and Canadian.

[Spazito]

137. I would disagree on a few of your points...

NAFTA, imo, has served neither Canada nor the US well, it has only served multinational corporations and gives them more clout to flout environmental laws, etc. I will use a Canadian corporation, Barrick Gold, as an example of that. Barrick Gold was able to do an end around California environmental laws due to NAFTA, that should not happen. Jobs are being outsourced to Mexico where their environmental laws are more lax and the rate of pay is much lower and that, imo, is to the detriment of both the US and Canada, never mind the Mexican people in the long run.

Canada is English and French, the US is English, in terms of national language. I am not sure we do have the same security concerns in total. Canada has focused it's military in a peacekeeping and disaster assistance role whereas the US has their military focus in a more offensive and security-related manner.

We do have many commonalities with each other as Canada and Britain do as well. I think we have done well as neighbours in the way we currently are, there is little benefit to Canada, imo, to change that.

The population of the US is 10 times that of Canada, when that is the case it would become more a case of takeover, to use business terms, than a merging of equal partners.

I enjoy the discussion on this topic as it is one that often arises, thank you for being willing to discuss it.

Edited to correct my very tortured sentence structure in a few places, lol.

[flaminbats]

141. discussion is only one step toward progress

as I pointed out before, this will not happen.

I believe it would benefit both nations, if it did. NAFTA could be corrected to favor citizens in both nations under a jointly elected Federal Reserve board.

The part of Canada I am most familiar with is Quebec. I have been in rural Quebec, Quebec City, and Montreal, and I love the people who live there! I remember most were bilingual and could speak English and French perfectly. I have also been to the UK, France, and Belgium, IMO France is nothing like Quebec. Canada had far more in common with the US both culturally and economically than with the UK.

[Spazito]

142. I agree with your point that NAFTA could be corrected if there

was a tri-lateral agreement to do so, I haven't seen that yet, even from Canada.

Where I see us as different is in our priorities and focus as to where our dollars should be spent and that could be considered a cultural difference due, in great part, in how our respective countries came to be. Canada came to be more from negotiation and compromise whereas the US came to being through the baptism of fire, per se, the American Revolution and, later on, the Civil War.

Canada could be considered a 'middle' power, one in which it carries no 'clout' militarily and has had no need to have that kind of 'clout'. The US, as the sole 'superpower' has different needs. I would prefer to celebrate our differences in a positive way than to try and meld anymore than we are now. We are inter-dependent, certainly, as regards trade, we are each other's biggest trade partners in spite of our on-going trade disputes. I guess what I am saying is 'if it ain't broke, why try and fix it?"

[flaminbats]

168. I believe the EURO will present a growing challenge for both nations.

One of my favorite books, "The Work of Nations", demonstrates the changing role of governments in this century.

I feel a united democratic government would be more effective at regulating corporate America, providing safety nets for workers, and laying the basic foundation necessary to compete in the modern capitalist world.

My view is this should not be considered unless the US pays off much of our debt, we begin a universal healthcare program, and both nations begin a jointly financed Marshall plan to modernize the economy of Mexico.

[xpat]

135. Don't count on the dollar

It doesn't sound like you have been following the economic situation very carefully. Every time a central banker sneezes, the dollar tanks. Canada would have to be crazy to link to the USD. The Euro, OTOH, is a very solid currency, which is in the process of replacing the ailing dollar as the world reserve currency. If the UK is smart, they will move to the euro and forget the quaint pound in the short term. Canada would be smart to do the same thing. In fact, their recent opening of significant oil trading with China might ultimately prove to be a move in that direction.

Can any Canadian here tell us whether NAFTA has been an advantage to Canada?

[flaminbats]

136. NAFTA has made Canada and the U.S. joined at the hip..

I'm not an economist, but I believe a common currency will keep both of our countries competitive with the EU.

I know how weak the U.S. currency is, which is why a common currency will never happen with the Republicans in power. But Democrats believe in reducing our national debt, I find it doubtful that even if Canada wanted to join the EU that it would be accepted as a full partner. Perhaps time will prove me wrong! :shrug:

[Spazito]

138. I can only give you my humble opinion and that is to say no...

NAFTA was to, among other things, stop the continuous cross-trade battles and it has not done that at all. We are still battling over the old trade issues: Newfoundland potatoes, softwood lumber, wheat, etc. Nothing has changed.

With NAFTA, if we had an energy crisis here at home, we could not reduce the amount of oil, gas or electricity that is being sold to the US to reduce the crisis here.

The US is trying to get our water included in NAFTA so that we would have to provide it to the US.

[merh]

132. I appreciate your posts and thank you for your perspective.

Being a realist, I imagine that you are correct in your assessment. Other nations cannot rely on the USofA the way they once did, to be a social and moral leader and an economic leader. The thugs that are in power now are unpredictable and dangerous. They have put us in so much debt while all along fighting a war justified by lies to our nation and to the world.

To openly negotiate behind their backs is to risk pissing them off, to piss them off is to put your nation in danger. To not make plans for your own nation, should ours self-destruct, is unwise and would be a disservice to your citizens.

We ain't down yet, but we ain't exactly what we once were.

[Ms. Clio]

169. I'm dancing on yours, ducky

Now it's over.

[ultraist]

46. The US economy is unchallenged? I disagree

Our economy is collapsing. Our dollar is devaluing like never before. Nations are pulling out their investments. Japan's GDP is right on our heels.

Bush is DESTROYING our economy and our reputation around the world. We are in sad shape. We are no longer able to rely on our military might to maintain control. Other nations do pose a real threat and if they don't keep Bush under conrol, he may well get us blown off the map.

[rockymountaindem]

51. According to the CIA

The US GDP is 11 billion dollars per annum. That is 20% of the world total. Japan's is 3.5 billion, about 30 percent of our own. The reason they do so well by comparison is because they have only 1/3rd of the US population. Therefore, their GDP per capita is high, but not as high as our own.

The only two countries with a higher GDP per capita than the US are Switzerland and Luxembourg. I'm not too worried about them.

[ultraist]

59. WRONG. Japan's GDP is 4.3 TRILLION not 3.6 billion!

Japan is one of the largest economic powers in the world, along with the US and EU (wikipedia).

Nations like Canada are making other trade arrangements and pulling back on US investments. We cannot make it on our own.

Bush is LYING. We are NOT in fine shape.

[rockymountaindem]

61. Wow, I did say billion, not trillion. Quite a gaffe on my part.

Proofread... proofread.

I should have said the US GDP is 11 trillion and Japan's is 3.6 trillion. At least I made the same mistake twice and the scale was the same. Even if it is 4.3 trillion as you say, that's still way below ours. Japan has been mired in a bad economy since 1991, and even with a zero percent interest rate they can't recover. Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear, but Japan is still pretty far back there.

[ultraist]

70. I think you are missing the point

It's not that Japan or ONE other country will run us into the ground, it's the fact that we DEPEND on MANY other nations economically. The isolationist days are long over and if Canada, the EU, China and Japan cut off from us, our economy will collapse.

The US cannot survive in a vacuum.

[rockymountaindem]

73. And those other countries depend on us

just as much as we depend on them; China and Japan in particular.

Like I said, the US makes up 20% of the global economy. Imagine how your life would change if 25% of your salary evaporated overnight. If our economy goes away, everyone will suffer. It is in the interest of the entire globe to ensure that the US does not collapse. In my opinion that's one of the few things that's propping us up right now.

I'm not trying to say that everything's coming up roses. I've said multiple times here that the US faces it's share of challenges and threats. All I'm trying to say is that the US will not cease to be a world power anytime soon. Others will join us, as is only natural (no single superpower has ever been alone at the top for long), but the end is not as near as many seem to think.

[flaminbats]

75. I disagree..

If our economy goes away, everyone will suffer. It is in the interest of the entire globe to ensure that the US does not collapse. In my opinion that's one of the few things that's propping us up right now.
I'm not trying to say that everything's coming up roses. I've said multiple times here that the US faces it's share of challenges and threats. All I'm trying to say is that the US will not cease to be a world power anytime soon

Our nation is at a critical point in history. The actions taken now will determine whether or not the US will be a world power in twenty or thirty years. The strength of our economy will depend on the size of the debt and how many babyboomers pull their money off the market. Our national security will depend on our willingness to pay more in taxes for strong military. And the willingness for other nations "to join with us" depends not on our military size, but our willingness to treat them as America wants to be treated.

[Why Syzygy]

86. Can't quote statistics

but from what I know, babyboomers have the largest investment portfolios.

They aren't going to pull it out.

They may have to SPEND a good deal of it. Over time.

The bushcon "debt", however, is (to borrow a phrase) "sinful".

[ultraist]

126. Babyboomer American investments are a drop in the bucket

Compared to foreign investments, the babyboomer investments are insignificant. Futhermore, the investor class is only approximately 4% of our population. We are part of the global economy, American investments alone, will not sustain us.

The point is, the more Bush alienates other nations, the more at risk he puts us both economically and security wise.

[flaminbats]

129. most retired folks consume less and save more..

I'm not suggesting they will pull it out quickly, like the crash of 29'. Even worse, they will pull more out slowly as less is put in by younger workers. As more money is withdrawn, stock prices fall..making less available to spend on goods and services. Most seniors now take a portion of each Social Security check and invest this into stocks and bonds. With shrub's privatization plan, less money from senior's Social Security checks would become available to invest in the private sector.

In sum..Bush's plan will have the opposite effect than intended.

[Spider Jerusalem]

77. No, it's already happening.

Sorry, but you are very WRONG.

You can't run a superpower on a shoestring budget...what's propping up this country's ability to stay a "superpower" right now is the fact that Asian and European central banks have been propping us up by purchasing MASSIVE amounts of US Treasury securities. That is about the ONLY thing keeping this nation afloat. It won't be for much longer, because the economic picture is pretty bleak...negative foreign account balance for the nineteenth straight year in a row, swelling deficits, huge trade imbalances, overheated real-estate markets...the bubble is going to burst opn all of that, and I expect it to be within the next five years. Possibly the next two or three.

The foreign banks withdraw their monetary support, and suddenly the US is a broke country with an overextended army and a nuclear stockpile its only claims to "superpower" status...which ISN'T enough; if it were, Russia would still be a superpower.

I have to say the desire "to ensure that America (is) as powerful as it can be...to use our power for good" sounds a bit messianically crazed...and Lord Acton's maxim generally holds true: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[xpat]

108. Did anybody notice the near meltdown

last week? A S. Korean central bank official said they were diversifying their holdings out of dollars. The dollar went into a tailspin until he explained that he had "misspoken". This incident indicates that the dollar is on a razor's edge, and that there could be a run on it at any time. There is no guarantee either way, but when an economy is that unstable, there is always a good likelihood that a bubble will burst.

[Darranar]

87. You are too late. It is already happening...

you are right about Brazil, it will take three or four Lulas even more courageous than the current one to effectively change that, but it is still growing more significant, and Latin American resistance to imperialism is on the rise. Unlike during the Cold War, I have my doubts that the US can crush it through mass murder and repression.

But, speaking of Lula, why is he still in power? Why is Chavez still in power? How can the US allow Chavez to receive arms from China without at least crippling his government?

China is proving an obstacle, as it has been for a long time now, and economically Japan and the EU have been strong competitors to the US for decades.

Traditional US clients have been moving away recently; Israel is dealing with China, despite US objections, and it is not alone in its increasing independence.

An end to the American Empire will be good news for most of humanity, Americans among them; concentrated power is pretty much never used for good, and the US is no exception to that rule. The question of course is who will replace it; hopefully no one.

[xpat]

109. Fortunately for Chavez and Lula

in answer to your questions:

"But, speaking of Lula, why is he still in power? Why is Chavez still in power? How can the US allow Chavez to receive arms from China without at least crippling his government?"

WE ARE TIED DOWN BY IRAQI FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND CAN'T POUND SHIT OUT OF CHAVEZ AND LULA.

I guess you might call that the silver lining to the Iraq invasion.

[Darranar]

147. Ah, so a few guerillas can hold up US power to such a degree...

that the United States cannot properly assert its power in a place it has traditionally dominated?

Another sign of a decline in US power.

[Frederik]

102. Multipolarity

I don't think it's likely that anyone will overtake the US, but what i hope lies ahead is something akin to the 19th century balance of power in Europe, several roughly equal powers/blocks more or less peacefully co-existing and competing economically. US, EU, Japan, China, India, Russia, ASEAN, and what will eventually become of the South American Union or what they're calling it. That's probably the best case scenario.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

164. Oh I think someone will overtake the U.S. all right. The question is

merely one of whether it's 20 years or 200 from now. It's just historical inevitability.

Do you honestly think there's anything magical about the U.S. where it will be the preeminent nation in the world from now until the end of time? If so, what would lead you to think such a thing? :shrug:

I'm sure there plenty of people in Britain in the 1700's who couldn't imagine England ever being anywhere else but at the pinnacle of world power ever again. And Rome. Etc.

[Frederik]

167. Nothing magical about the US

and I'm not American, so it would be a strange thing for me to believe. :-) Maybe I misunderstood the word 'overtake', I was thinking of the US being thoroughly beaten by another great power in a major-theater war and reduced to a small and insignificant nation or even invaded or conquered. I don't see that happening anytime soon, although in 200 years sure, who knows.

But a decline in American power is inevitable and already underway. That's why I said the best case scenario would probably be a multipolar, relatively peaceful world. The alternative would be, well, what we're seeing now: The US fighting to preserve its superpower status through military means by grabbing the world's energy resources.

[mwb970]

24. So is my cat. (n/t)

[Anarcho-Socialist]

25. I agree. The sun is setting on the American Empire n/t

[isit2008yet]

31. what clued you in on this...

Iran and Syria's agreement to assist each other or Russia entering into an alliance with Iran?...or all the experts telling Bush, Rumsfield, and Wolfie they may destabilize the mid-eastern countries going to war with Iraq. Or maybe it was Bush's recent trip to Europe and trying to bully all those countries to follow his miserable failure polices. sheesh!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Canadian Socialist]

38. The truth is nigh

"Something is not just right in our country."

And I agree. Europe and most of Asia are not longer looking to America. Canada is looking elsewhere for a trading partner. This I know. Now, Canada is the the U.S.'s largest trading partner. But, you know what? We are pretty sick and tired of being bullied. i.e. the soft wood lumber problem. the B.S.E. problem. I could go on. Why would we pay the punishing penalties that the U.S. is illegally attaching to our products simply because "they" decide that we are giving our farmers/lumberers unfair subsidies. Even though the World Trade Court has decide several times that the U.S. is WRONG. To me, the U.S.A. is a bully and a hypocritical bunch of thugs. /rant off.

[ultraist]

67. That's very true.

The US has a long history of being bullies and thugs. We have many stains on our history: genocide of Native Americans, slavery, colonizing and invading other nations, starving out people in developing nations, WAITING to intervene to stop Hitler...the list is long.

And NOW, we have BUSH trampling on others while we NO LONGER hold the power we used to. People in the US who have bought into the Nationalist propaganda are in for a rude awakening.

[chlamor]

39. America as Empire-Hype

America is a culture of conquest. The sole super power we're #1ness has been a real Madison Ave. deceit.

[lonestarnot]

40. Yeah the Iran oil deal with euro is what is being blamed presently... but

who has the most to loose from that? Wonder what the real story is... other than we are so hated now.

[aquart]

43. Already happened.

Ain't George great?

[sweetheart]

58. The world is already multipolar... single power status is gone

Having a world-straddling military is just a burden, especially when the
economic conditions that support it are rotting out with the hubris.

Perhaps the problem was using that word "superpower" to start with,
creating unrealistic expectations amongst a generation.

[BrklynLiberal]

62. Tomorrow, if not today.

[UdoKier]

63. Having lived in non-superpower countries before - who cares?

This American insistence on being number one borders on pathological.

The only reason I worry about our dropping down a few spots is thinking about all the countries we have run roughshod over for decades, and who may want to come back for a bit of revenge

It's our economy I'm more worried about. It's little more than a house of cards - all debt, little equity and 30+ straight years of massive trade deficits. Watching the air being let out will not be pretty.

[Lexingtonian]

68. and at that point

the U.S. will decide to become a civilization. That's the consolation.

The future lies in multi-state conglomerates anyway. The U.S. will simply be the largest player in the one that will form in the Americas.

[lala_rawraw]

69. You see it already, the..

Real question is if we can actually survive this as a nation and you don't want to know my thoughts on this. God, I don't want my thoughts on this.:(

[applegrove]

76. You only have 5% of the population anyway - you just got lucky with

the democracy & the European language & the resources and the ingenuity. But America will always be big. I mean India will always be crowded and China too.

Besides, 50 of the 100 largest economies in the world are American corporations. So if you can get a handle on them. If you can get the corporations to be tools of the people again - and regulate them decently, they can be good corporate American citizens around the world. But that is only if you get the elites and the corporations under control. If you don't they will become transnational and have little in the way of ties to Americans.

Too bad with the delusional President and the voters encouraged to be nut bombs. Most people want to face a problem head on rather than go crazy. You'll get rid of this cast of characters. And we are all worried for you. Which means that we still love you - the people.

[demnan]

79. I don't necessarily think so

Look how well we were doing just 10 years ago. All we need is for people in this country to get their heads out of their butts. There is no reason why we can't have a good economy again. We have lots of land, a temperate climate, technology and when our government is run by sane and good people, a good government.

I don't think America needs to eat humble pie. I think Bush needs to eat humble pie.

[KG]

80. i certainly hope so.

[NMDemDist2]

81. this video tells a chilling story

http://www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com/

the space race/star wars is how the US plans to stay in the drivers seat for a long time.....

[Warren DeMontague]

85. I'd like to see a world where the very concept of a "superpower" is

as obsolete as the idea of the divine right of kings.

Unless we're seriously threatened by folks from another planet, there is no reason on Eris's green earth that ANY nation needs to spend, as we do, ten times all the other nations combined on it's own "defense". I don't care if that nation is the former Soviet Union, China, or Us. Meanwhile, because we're pissing away our children's inheritance on a useless military-industrial complex and an even more useless prison-industrial complex, other nations with their fiscal heads NOT up their asses are cleaning our clock in terms of educating their kids and preparing them for actual jobs making actual shit and doing actual things in the 21st century.

Of course, those countries aren't obsessed with maintaining a global empire that is unsustainable. Fucking cheaper that way.

Losing our superpower status? From where I sit, it's our superpower status that is the problem in the first place.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

163. Shrubco is making a serious push to restore "divine right of kings" eom.

[Warren DeMontague]

166. Yeah, it goes well with that 15th Century Chic he's so fond of.

[Frederik]

171. A small correction

While I agree with all the things you say, I don't think the US is spending ten times all the other countries combined! I think it's about even: the US spends about $500 billion and the rest of the world spends about $500 billion. Maybe if the US fought the entire rest of the world, it would be a tie... :-)

[Warren DeMontague]

175. You are probably right.

I think I got the ten times figure from Ben Cohen's cookie analysis at truemajority.org, but I may have 'crunched' the numbers wrong (as it were).

http://www.e-tractions.com/truemajority/run/oreo?rd=436

http://truemajority.org/oreotrans.cfm

Any way you slice it, however, we outspend the next guys by a massive margin.

[seabeyond]

89. my country needs to eat some humble pie.

a couple years ago, going into iraq i saw this adn had to resolve it with self. i felt a little sadness at loss of pride that america would no longer be number 1. the competitive me. then as i sat in thought of this country sitting in shame, of who we are, i thought, that doesnt feel too uncomfortable. i can do this without pain. i dont have to be in a country that is the most powerful. so we go thru this experience. a little humbling isnt a bad thing. and will give opportunity to shift gears and become a greater people. we have the opportunity always

so if that is where we go, i can handle it. who it will be painful for is all those people that voted bush, that has themselves wrapped in the country be great. they are going to be the ones to suffer. not us

[SmokingJacket]

92. I love this country, and would MUCH rather it be less powerful.

If we could spend our tax money on schools and infrastructure and health care instead of trying to dominate the world... well, that would be EXCELLENT.

So I'm rooting for the superpower thing to go away.

[Stuckinthebush]

97. Imagine how much good we could do

If we didn't have to spend so many billions on war toys.

Hell, even 1 percent of the Pentagon budget would be incredible.

[ultraist]

131. Japan spends a very small percentage on military

That was in part why their economy grew so fast.

[Beer Snob-50]

96. Unfortunatly, the repub party has led us down this road

however, we can put an end to it, by first off taking back the congress and then voting these bozos out in 2008.

[Frederik]

100. A quote from the blog

'Rigorous Intuition' whch I think nails the situation:

The US has bobbed to the top of its debts by the benefit of holding the world's reserve currency. Without it, it sinks.

This is why the neocons have been led by the vain hope that they could get all their moves in before America's rivals could react. It's the only way they could win their new American century. But it's too late. Strategically, the US finds itself in a situation somewhat akin to Imperial Japan's in early 1942: militarily dominant but resource-weak, which has led it to make some exceptionally dangerous choices. The die has been cast.

The situation is so obviously dire for the United States on so many fronts, it's hard to believe that some people who should know better, don't. And that some of them, for whatever purpose, aren't actually welcoming the coming calamity.

Who's encircling whom, anyway?

Speaking from a European perspective, the US has almost no influence in Western Europe anymore, though obviously in the UK. Russia and China are busy making deals with all the members of the Axis of Evil. Another poster on DU pointed out that China has embraced the Galileo system, the coming European version of the GPS, I remember reading about an American official talking about the possibility of shooting down Gallileo satelites in the event they be used by 'terrorists'. Somebody's afraid of competition...

There's a Russia-China-India-Brazil-Venezuela axis forming, as a direct result of the BushCo/PNAC imperial fervour. A certain decline of American power was inevitable, but I think the picture would still be very different if Al Gore had been allowed his victory... Nobody wants to play with a bully.

[MsTryska]

104. funny you should say that....

that was the topic of my latest blog entry. (www.the4thestate.blogspot.com)

[leesa]

105. It's already happened. We have no credibility and no money.

[ananda]

113. past tense

Honey, you've already seen it.

The EU basically smiles, shakes Bush's or Condi's hand, and then just goes its own way.

As for Asia, they own our debt.

Sue

[Cleita]

116. We are already there already Bouncy Ball.

For the longest time we were the bully in the playground and no one wanted to mess with us. However, the bully is getting more stupid and careless everyday. He is showing his weaknesses to the rest of the playground by kicking a kid around no one thought could fight back. It won't be long now before the other kids, gang up on him, pants him and then take off leaving him naked and squealing on the groung all alone.

I grieve for my country, because it will be the weak and innocent who will suffer in the long run, but the suffering will happen because of what our government has done and intends to do.

[tom_paine]

118. Well, in truth, the US doesn't even exist anymore. We are the AE

And yes, the moment we embraced Orwellianism, Totalitarianism, and Empire, the AE was doomed from it's very birth, as all other Empires are.

And when the Bills Come Do and the Other Shoes Drop (a whole closetful) don't expect the PARTY and the Imperial Subjects to eat "humble pie".

Look for them to come (under the direction of their Imperial Masters) looking for the Enemies of the State: Liberals, Homosexuals, Jews and Blacks (unless they are members of THE PARTY)

[Az_lefty]

120. I think your right

the selfish, narrow minded ambitions of the neo-cons, will be our downfall.

[tolseq]

122. well...

In the UK we have a saying, that the United Kingdom was made up of, England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and the USA....

So don`t feel too bad,it simply noone bothered to tell you :)

Peace

[understandinglife]

125. Will Pitt: "The Third Stage of American Empire"

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/030105Z.shtml

Quite excellent.


BE THE BU$H OPPOSITION;24/7

[Bouncy Ball]

160. Thanks!

:hi:

[Stop_the_War]

172. you mean Brazil?

Of course.

[Gloria]

179. Check out this article about China's pursuit of energy....

2//Asia Times Online, Hong Kong Mar 2, 2005

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GC02Ad07.html



CHINA FUELS ENERGY COLD WAR

By Chietigj Bajpaee

HONG KONG - A notable feature of 2004 was the volatility in oil prices - New York light sweet crude prices reached a peak of US$55.67 on October 25, ending the year up 33.6% at $43.45 per barrel. While a number of supply-side and supply-chain factors have contributed to this situation, the most significant long-term factor contributing to rising oil prices is an increase in Asian demand, most notably from China. China's unprecedented growth not only makes it a driver of a long-term increase in energy prices, but also the most vulnerable to rising oil prices.

China, which has been a net oil importer since 1993, is the world's number two oil consumer after the US and has accounted for 40% of the world's crude oil demand growth since 2000. China's proven oil reserves stand at 18 trillion barrels, and oil imports account for one-third of its crude oil consumption.

China has initiated numerous policies to cope with its increasing energy needs, including stepping up exploration activities within its own borders, diversifying beyond oil to access other energy resources, such as nuclear power, coal, natural gas and renewable energy resources, promoting energy conservation and encouraging investment into energy-friendly technologies such as hydrogen-powered fuel cells and coal gasification.

snip

Nevertheless, in the face of sporadic power shortages, growing car ownership and air travel across China and the importance of energy to strategically important and growing industries such as agriculture, construction, and steel and cement manufacturing, pressure is going to mount on China to access energy resources on the world stage.

As a result, energy security has become an area of vital importance to China's stability and security. China is stepping up efforts to secure sea lanes and transport routes that are vital for oil shipments, and diversifying beyond the volatile Middle East to find energy resources in other regions, such as Africa, the Caspian, Russia, the Americas and the East and South China Sea region.

snip

China's quest for energy resources on the world stage is creating a destabilizing effect on international and regional security. Fueled by the lack of a coherent multilateral approach to energy security in Asia and by China's already tense relations with neighboring states, the competition for energy resources may prove to be the spark for regional and international conflict. In many cases, China is vying for energy resources in some of the most unstable parts of the world. Its involvement in regions with raging conflicts could potentially draw it into the disputes, escalating a regional conflict into an international conflict.


MORE


(details on all of China's moves, alliances, etc. Amazing story)

[Spinoza]

180. Heard that one before.

All I know is that I have been reading and hearing about the "imminent" demise of American superpower hegemony since I went to college in the 60's. Despite the torrents of books, essays, lectures, articles etc explaining why and how America is on the verge of downfall, humiliation, collapse, destruction, or simply second tier status..... all that seems to happen is that America gets richer and richer (as a nation, not all or most individuals) and more and more powerful. The Soviets completely blew it. For a long time we thought Japan would stick the knife in. Their economy imploded. Then Europe. Except, demographically they won't have any people left in 50 years. Now China is the great white hope. So, maybe it is FINALY going to happen "soon". But I'll believe it when I see it. The U.S. seems to have more lives than a cat.

[ScreamingMeemie]

182. Yes, we learned nothing from the Holy Roman Empire.

:hi:

[Deja Q]

183. Don't forget, we have WMDs. If economic warfare is seen AS warfare...

Something far worse will be used in retaliation. After all, our economy by that point couldn't swat a mosquito.